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All Posts by Kyleran

All Posts by Kyleran

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Yeah, GW2 if you haven't played it yet.
What's Skyforge? That's your answer.

Originally posted by delete5230

Here is what happened,

Lets go Way back.  MMOs were still new and not completely refined. We had UO and EQ1 but they were rough drafts in a time where Dialup was the best we could use.

No, we also had Lineage 1/2, Anarchy Online, FFXI, DAOC, EVE, Asherson's Call to name a few, and many of us played on internet connections, not dial-up by 2002/2003.

Around 2003 Blizzard developed World of Warcraft in with competition of Everquest 2 by Sony to be the next generation MMO.  Everquest 2 lost with it's poor graphics engine and just plain ugly world and zoning.

Specifically November of 2004 to be precise for both titles.

This left us with only World of Warcraft, with perfect timing of EVERYTHING.

- Faster internet with DSL and Cable modem. - Not specific to WOW

- Non instanced game world. - Not specific to WOW, besides, the dungeons were almost all instanced, unlike some other titles previously.

- Community based tools and quest hubs. - What Community based tools are you referring to?  Quest hubs it had in spades of course.

- Slow leveling, allowing everyone to stay that level for longer periods to make friends with a mutual goal. - Slow leveling compared to what, the theme park's of today?  It was tons faster than anything I experienced in Lineage 1/2, DAOC or even Shadowbane? 

- Cartoon, but stable for lower end computers. - It did take the smart path and make it accessible on a very broad range of computers, one of the first to do so, and one of the largest reasons why this game hit it so big.

- Quick fixes to bugs. - Er, no, we battled with the overload DB issues for almost a year, bug free is not how most players would describe the early playing experience.  Who doesn't remember dieing while zoning between continents on the boat rides, or some of the more entertaining bugs you could hit on the early dungeon raids.

- Non-Zoned Areas to play, with a theme for each one along with music to set the mood. - Non zoned? They were quite zoned, level restricted, and abrupt in their transition.  Sure, you didn't have to wait for a loading screen, but they were zones none the less.

- 6 starting areas for freedom and replay. - This was a good thing, I really enjoyed this about WOW

- PvP that worked. - Ugh no, totally disagree in this case, matter of opinion I guess.  I prefer well designed open world PVP, and WOW quickly took the road of directing everyone to limited BG and arena instances, letting the open world PVP to not only languish, but actually discourage people from doing it.

- Low competition  - There were a dozen MMORPG's at the time of launch, and within a few years, hundreds came out, plenty of competition.

- No costly expansion's for years, adding they were not needed for years - Many people might disagree, I personally felt the expansions should have been more on an annual basis, and look at all the whining lately from people saying they've been slacking in this area.

The list could go on and on. EverQuest 2 fans could argue forever but WoW was it, hands down. The money was rolling in. Marketing was not structured enough to interfere yet, not that it had to !......Millions of people were rolling in, kids in school had a major fade. " if you don't play WoW your behind "

OK, now that I set the stage, I'll go into the downhill slide :  well, you did, sort of skewed, incorrect view, but sure, let's go on.

Around the EXACT SAME TIME maybe 2008 or so ( don't hold me to that ) three things happened. 2004 - 2008 are not the exact same time, what are you trying to say?

1) Developers began mass producing mmos to hop on the action - I believe between 2004 and 2008 we saw Vanguard, LOTRO, and a number of other games, but I wouldn't call them mass produced, though they all were starting to borrow heavily from WOW by then.

2) Marketing took over. - much sooner than 2008, WOW was using Mr T commercials back in 2005 or 2006, and it was paying off big time.

3) World of Warcraft developed the dungeon finder. The beginning of Lobby game. This idea was met with mixed reactions. I could safely say 50/50. This killed the community. You no longer needed that guild, or a friends list THIS WAS THE REAL BOTTOM LINE OF THE END OF DEEP FRIENDSHIP. - While I agree DF's are a bad idea and contribute to the reduction in socialization, you have it all wrong, deep friendship is not what matters in a MMORPG, in fact, game designs that encourage total strangers to help each other out are what really keeps players going over the long term, and have largely disappeared over the years.

Deep friendship is what makes you log in day after day for months or years. It's why people don't stop playing after they learn all them cool abilities and have seen all the world has to offer. - Not at all true.  I'm a guild hopper, I make friends, play with them as long as it suits me, then I move on, to another guild or another game, deep friendship on the internet is an illusion.  Look at it this way, if those folks would not be willing to die for you in real life, they are not really your friends, merely acquaintences.

Marketing departments began studying Blizzards World of Warcraft. They took it upon themselves to copy the Dungeon Finder not knowing it was a downfall, thinking Bilzzard was still making millions. They in braced this extremely new feature without the understanding that it will destroy long term gameplay that only World of Warcraft could overcome with its monopoly............This is when the 30 day non-social mmo came to life. 

They copied a whole lot more than the DF, and that's why today's MMO's are so similar.  Now if you like that sort of design, and aren't looking for a long term experience, you are probably pretty happy with current designs.

Other factors that killed the mmo experience were Dynamic events, personal story lines and instanced zones. This turned mmos into just games.  yes, its true, they kept adding game mechanics the increasing reduced socialization mechanics between strangers, but in fact the designs encourage guilds to draw in upon themselves even more than ever, which isolated the players from everyone else even more.

Not many players play games longer than 30 days, but mmos they will !

 The majority of today's player base is not interested in playing a game more than 2 or 3 months, they really aren't.  Sure, I'll play one for years, but I'm part of  niche, and so are you.  So game design and monetization have evolved to cater to that majority of the marketplace.

I might not like the designs, but doesn't change the fact that from a business point of view they make sense, even if they fail (IMO) artistically

 


Originally posted by delete5230

FF14 is the perfect example of the mmo killer.

- Dungeon finder

- Extremely small zones, even split cities.

- 250 part solo quest line.

- 45 min times dungeons.

 How did this kill anything?  It's one of the largest subscription games on the marketplace if reports are to believed?  What exactly did it kill, that's what's largely missing from your argument.  Deep  player friendship, not nearly as important as you seem to believe in terms of financial success.

Elders Scrolls Online makes a good second example with

- Mega servers - A brilliant move if you look at how things are turning out in Wildstar right now.

- No name plates. - Yeah, this sucks IMO.

- Instanced zones - Not a fan myself, but most people don't notice or care.

- Solo easy - Yea, it is pretty easy, which seems to be what the market favors.

- Dungeon finder - I didn't notice...but not the game killer you think it is.

Modern my butt !!!!!!!...............This is why ArcheAge is so controversial right now. Its community based. But the Cash shop is causing panic. Lots of miss trust !.....Yet, its what players are looking for !

They are most definitely modern, and I agree it's debatable whether they are improvements, not to me or you maybe, but other folks continue to pay for them.


Originally posted by Viper482

Originally posted by Kyleran
Killed everything? Set the standard is a better way to describe the situation, by which all MMORPG success would be measured against.

It far and away attracted the largest audience ever seen in MMO space, and regardless of why it managed to do so it was inevitable that most game developers would look to it for design inspiration, especially with the ever increasing amounts of money these games take to design.

Probably should not use FFXIV as an example of market failure, by all accounts it may very well be the second most successful subscription based MMO currently out there, if it's managed to surpass Lineage 1 yet. If this successful, you can't point towards its designs and say don't do this, because apparently many people are quite happy with it.

Same goes for SWTOR, ESO, along with FFXIV and WOW, they dominate the MMO space outside of MOBAs and their ilk.

Now I'm not happy this is how it turned out, I'm fortunate I have EVE to play during this MMORPG "dark age" I feel we've been in, and there has been some signs of new life with titles such as AA, BD, SC, to name a few.

But we really need to stop calling modern theme park design a failure, it brought in hordes of new players and cash, which is the primary goal of the people who fund and create these games.

You are talking from a business standpoint, we are gamers here dude in case you didn't notice. No one would be stupid enough to say WoW was a business failure, the fact you think this is what the topic is baffles me.

Er yeah, I'm a MMORPG player, not a casual gamer, but the fact that you think somehow you can disassociate the business discussion from what influences design decisions in MMOs baffles me even more.

OP infers game developers were mistaken to follow the current path, question remains, did they make their investment back, are they still running and adding new content, and do they continue to retain some amount of players? The answer for most titles is yes to all of these questions, so how can you say they did something wrong?

If you are going to say WOW killed "everything" you'd better be very specific on what exactly it is that it killed, then perhaps I would agree with you.

 

 

Originally posted by Ganksinatra
This cop out of freedom to act like a sociopath online is why this game is avoided like Herpes. I am "free" to mass murder a preschool full of toddlers,  but I don't because I'm not a prick who gets my jollies by ruining someone else's life/fun/happiness. You can continue to try and justify this cesspool and the turds that circle it, but you end up looking just as off your rocker as they are by enabling it. I for one am glad this game exists. It keeps the dbags of humanity locked up in their own zoo and away from the rest of us.

Aw, c'mon, can you really equate some totally horrific real life crime such as your example to the activities that go on in EVE?  Even at their worst (and there have been some bad ones), they don't come anywhere close to your example, excessive use of hyperbole does not bolster your argument, just makes you a sensationalist.

Originally posted by Ganksinatra

Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by AndrewGoat

So you expect people to actually pay a subscription fee just to play a game where the goal of the game is to scam and grief people?

 

...

 

Lolz.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I'd rather not play a game that permits scamming and griefing. No offense to those who still play EVE.

Had to fix that for you.  CCP doesn't promote any playstyle, but it does permit a wide variety including people who chose to attempt to scam and grief.  If you fly smart, which most people who stick around for any length of time learn to, you won't be much impacted by either activity.

So much ignorance in this thread about how the game really plays, you guys really shouldn't believe what you read on the internet and then assume it is representative, they are anomolies folks, not daily occurances for the average player.

They most absolutely do endorse it. They not too long ago invited new players out somewhere, and one of the largest griefing guild "just happened to be there" when they jumped in.  When they were accused of setting those folks up, the CCP members had a good laugh about it and basically told those folks to shut up.

A couple of points.  First, killing other people's spaceships is neither scamming or griefing, it's core game play, and I will agree, CCP does it's best to "assist" players to grow beyond their self-imposed boundaries and learn to embrace the PVP core that is the heart of the game.

If you have some "proof" that CCP set the above named scenario up strictly for lols please post the links because I'd like to read it directly.  There are many passages in the TOC that specifically define and prohibit what CCP feels to be outside the bounds of normal game play, read it sometimes and perhaps you'll be less inclined to believe legends on the internet.

I can see CCP members laughing about it though, their motto is HTFU, and at the end of the day the players killed lost a few ships, something you'd better get used to if you're going to play EVE.

BTW, I find it very odd that a character named "Ganksinatra" would post this viewpoint, you have a change of heart at some point and now you are no longer a sociopath?

 

 

Killed everything? Set the standard is a better way to describe the situation, by which all MMORPG success would be measured against.

It far and away attracted the largest audience ever seen in MMO space, and regardless of why it managed to do so it was inevitable that most game developers would look to it for design inspiration, especially with the ever increasing amounts of money these games take to design.

Probably should not use FFXIV as an example of market failure, by all accounts it may very well be the second most successful subscription based MMO currently out there, if it's managed to surpass Lineage 1 yet. If this successful, you can't point towards its designs and say don't do this, because apparently many people are quite happy with it.

Same goes for SWTOR, ESO, along with FFXIV and WOW, they dominate the MMO space outside of MOBAs and their ilk.

Now I'm not happy this is how it turned out, I'm fortunate I have EVE to play during this MMORPG "dark age" I feel we've been in, and there has been some signs of new life with titles such as AA, BD, SC, to name a few.

But we really need to stop calling modern theme park design a failure, it brought in hordes of new players and cash, which is the primary goal of the people who fund and create these games.
Originally posted by Teala

CCP missed their chance to make EVE future safe by ditching WIS, making DUST 514 a PS3 only title, and wasting money on WOD and Valkyrie.    If CCP had stuck with making EVE a better all around game that included avatar game play nobody would be having this conversation right now.   EVE would be years ahead of Star Citizen, and Elite, had they kept forging ahead with WIS.  

I even wrote about how EVE needed avatars to make the game complete in my blog....EVE Online - The need for adding the human factor.  

EVE will never be a Star Citizen or Elite.  It will remain a small niche based game that caters to a particular player.   We players that need more than what EVE offers have games like Star Citizen and Elite to look forward to and as supporter of both SC and Elite I can say without a doubt SC and Elite will deliver a more complete MMORPG gaming experience than EVE ever did.

And I'll say that most likely neither one of those titles will deliver even 1/2 of the MMORPG experience that EVE does.

Let's see who is right in 2 or 3 years from now

 

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by AndrewGoat

So you expect people to actually pay a subscription fee just to play a game where the goal of the game is to scam and grief people?

 

...

 

Lolz.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I'd rather not play a game that permits scamming and griefing. No offense to those who still play EVE.

Had to fix that for you.  CCP doesn't promote any playstyle, but it does permit a wide variety including people who chose to attempt to scam and grief.  If you fly smart, which most people who stick around for any length of time learn to, you won't be much impacted by either activity.

So much ignorance in this thread about how the game really plays, you guys really shouldn't believe what you read on the internet and then assume it is representative, they are anomolies folks, not daily occurances for the average player.

Remove the moniker EverQuest and you'd have no problem, people could take it at face value and judge it on it's on merits.

But once you decide to use the EQ handle, you create an expectation that it will remain somewhat true in spirit and not jump the shark in terms of game design.

You are correct, there is no obligation, dev's make the game they think will sell the best, even if said game is just another retread of the standard model that's been overused for so many years.

 

There may be more "games" then ever, but there have been no new MMORPGs released since WOW released with the game mechanics and designs that I want to see.

Hence I am currently focused on EVE, a pre WOW MMORPG, and when it restarts, a DAOC freeshard set back to a 2003 version. (after SI launched, but before TOA)

It isn't nostalgia, today's games are radically different from those older designs, and depressingly similar to each other, and I don't enjoy them.

Neither do a lot of others, but that's a figure that's hard to quantify, those who've stepped out of the genre due to a lack of good options. I know quite a few of them, but people tell me it's all in my head, and that we are not representative.
Friendly fire is not handled the same in all FFA PVP MMOs.

In DAOC you could never attack or damage your guild mates. In fact, you could not attack other players if they were grouped with you, even if not in your guild.

EVE on the other hand will allow you to attack your corp or alliance mates and on rare occasions when one of them pissed me off I ended up killing them. (Oops,sorry, my bad, was an accident, here let me pay for your ship...was worth it)

In high sec, you can kill your corp mates with no penalty, leads to something called awoxing on occasion, but if you attack random fleet members Concord will kill you. But in 0.0 and lowsec, you can get away with it just fine.

In EVE, today's friend can be tomorrows enemy, unlike faction based combat where your own side can't attack you no matter how much they want to.

I don't think anyone is confused, in a FFA server at almost any time someone, most anyone may try to kill you, and there is no comparison to that with faction based game design.
OP should be playing EVE, DFO or something like them and not be looking in a theme park for freedom of choice.
Originally posted by Raelln
Originally posted by Mothanos

If you are not in a guild that uses teamspeak / Ventrilo / Mumble you are just in a no name fail guild that doesnt do much for its members.
And its certainly realy bad.......

How do you organise pvp ?
How do you organise pve ?


its 2014 ffs people still affraid using a mic ?

If I'm not running content that requires coordination - then I don't want to hear anyone else's sob stories or their recent alcoholic endeavors.

If I'm out questing/leveling an alt, particularly if the content has voice acting in it - then I don't want those people yakking in my ears.

How is that difficult to understand?

This.  Voice is perfectly fine for good purpose, such as organized activities, but when I'm out doing something solo, I don't really need to listen to others in random chat, I'm normally listening to something else, be it the TV, my wife, my music, or maybe even the in game voice-overs.

But as far as just generally listening in on open chat, guys, you just aren't that interesting, which is likely why I'm in the afk channel.  BTW, if you want to contact me for a raid or something, feel free to type in the in game chat channels, and I'll come up and join you.

"If" ED and SC actually launch, and "If" they are actually good MMORPG's that are fun to play, with solid game mechanics and support, then they might have a chance to thrive and proper in this overcrowded market.

Like some other EVE players, I'll probably give one of them a try , but I'm not into action combat, I actually like EVE's style, so I'm more likely to stay with EVE regardless. 

There will likely be many things about EVE that will never be replicated by any other game, MMO's are like that, a unique combination of their parts that is hard to recreate, so I think in the long run EVE will do fine.

Those of us who play EVE also play other games from time to time, but at the end of the day, many of us keep coming back.

So while there may be a dip in the sub numbers, EVE will continue to roll on .  In fact, if ED or SC tank for some reason, EVE may capture a portion of their fleeing client base much like it die from SWG when it collapsed.

 

Originally posted by AmbrosiaAmor
Originally posted by Remains

There's topics other than F2P that are being discussed loudly. Like this for instance:

http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?30017-Cash-Shop-Is-Going-To-Ruin-The-Game-At-This-Rate

 

55 pages and still going. Almost 1200 folks are not happy with the way the cash shop is being handled versus 200 that are O.K. with it. How will XL Games and TRION handle this?


So much QQ about relatively nothing:  This is what they are upset about:

- Sand glasses are what restore your boat when its broken (these will sell for extremely high prices early on and proceed to lose value over time).
- Eco fuel is what used to be called "meteors", but basically provides ~5m speed boost to your boat, which is very useful on the ocean.
- Regrade scrolls basically make it so that you have a very high chance of making your gear better (For high level weapons the difference between green and mythic tier of the same item is almost x2)

They want people to fight in this game, and ocean based combat is a main way to PVP. People won't be as willing to do it if reparing boats is too expensive, so I've no objections to this addition.

Of course, if you are trying to evade the enemy, Eco fuel is very important too, watched my guildmates out run many enemies on a recent trade pack run, until they came across another ship that had it as well.  Again, not a game breaker and good for the combat portion of the game.

Regrade scrolls do suck, I don't like chance based item improvement items in any game, cash shop or otherwise.

For the most part, these changes will prevent alchemists or other crafters from making a fortune selling them in the early game, fine with me, I'm not really crafter, and could care less what crafters want in terms of dominating the economy. 

Someone called crafting the "metagame" of ArcheAge, if so, they need to stamp that out as quickly as possible. Territory control via PVP should be the metagame, and I think 2 of 3 changes above actually support this. Crafting should be designed to support the PVP metagame, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
Originally posted by Betaguy
 

Soon as a few better space sims are released EVE will be closing the doors anyways.  The engine is outdated and cannot keep up. The only ones left will be the ones with a lot of money invested.

here is your problem with this game, EVE have nothing with space sim genre , it is sandbox mmoRPG  focused on players interaction.

It's not sandbox. 

 

To take Sov in EvE there is only one method.  You get a blob, shoot a structure into reinforced, wait 24ish hours, return to structure. If your blob and reinforcements is bigger you win because no enemy turns up, if smaller you don't turn up, if around the same size you shoot each other. If you manage to blob system first you have an advantage in lag. 

One way, no hit and run, no raiding, just structure grinding timers that never end.

Wait, outside of the 24 hour timer, this sounds exactly like the real world if one country is trying to invade another.  No one conquers another country with hit and run tactics, or by raiding, you basically roll in with your zerg of weapons and men and fight to the death if the enemy is willing.

I imagine you could employ terrorist tactics against opponents as well, running through their territory to disrupt trade, joining their ranks and destroying from within (done many times), using war decs, hiring mercs, camping their jump bridge networks etc.

While the SOV mechanics could use some adjusting (but then since I first joined in 2007 that's always been true, and usually proposed by people who don't hold SOV) there is so much to do in this game besides SOV wars.

The sandbox is working just fine in EVE.

 

Bigger worry is a major disruption of airline travel across northern hemisphere.

Edit: So I guess the volcano did blow....  can't log into EVE or the forums this morning.....

Yeah, 11 years and counting, near 500k subs after all that time, one of the all time most successful MMORPGs in history, not bad for an old horse.
Why is it when people lose lots of fights the other guy anyways had better gear and that's the only reason they won? EVE is a game that is fairly easy to match your opponent gear for gear in once you've trained the skills.

I doubt many people in FW fight in anything beyond T2, if that even, and yes you should be able to earn enough ISK in game assuming you aren't just throwing away your ships.

OP does realize in EVE it's more important to not lose your ship than to try and win a hopeless fight right?

In EVE you don't fight for "fun", it's win or go home broke.
Tough times in CCP land these days, I hope this encourages them to continue to focus on their core business and stop pursuing unrelated gaming activities.

I'll go reactivate a 4th sub this weekend to help them out.
Pepeq, you should watch the video. It does a good job of explaining why 60 fps really is a good idea for all gaming systems, including PCs
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