Why have NPC bandits? Allow for player bandits with perma death being the potential consequence of playing this option.

The worry here for me is how BioWare can keep the bean counters of EA off their doorstep.

There is a problem with BioWare's idea of how to develop a successful game and EA's idea of how to reap the rewards off any game. Bioware believes you don't ship a product unless it's actually ready to ship. Bioware has even canceled production of games if they didn't think it met their criteria. EA, as we know, will ship anything to make a buck.

I can see, in the very near future, a group of suits on BioWare's doorstep telling them to ship SW:TOR even though it's not ready, then have it fail in the customer's eyes, then have EA blame BioWare for it all and do to them what is being done to Mythic now.

I hope it doesn't happen, but history proves it to be very likely.

That's it, modules. Such a shame.

While I believe BioWare could have made this playable over a network and the internet, it's most likely they decided against this in planning so it would not compete with their upcoming MMO. Now, I realize that DragonAge and their Old Republic games are different genres, but when you only have so much time to be online to play... it's still competing with yourself.

Originally I thought this would be the natural successor to their Neverwinter Nights game, but I believe I read that although you can create worlds for people to play in, it's not going to be available for online play like Neverwinter Nights. If that's the case, it would be a major disappointment for me.

 You run into problems when you try to pigeon hole MMO players. The time of massive games like WoW have pretty much run it's course and the chances of challenging Blizzard are slim.

So, you want something different. Great. Who's going to pay for it? Like many have pointed out, investors want formulas that guaranty a profit in return. Thinking outside the box requires someone who has money and just wants innovation. They aren't expecting anything in return except that innovation.

So, where would that come from? Most likely a small group of people that can fund themselves.

Is such a scenario possible? Sure. Just don't expect to become the next WoW. No one will. Just make a game you'd want to play. If you'd want to play it, most likely others would as well. Once you have that, you can fill in most of the blanks pretty easy.

However, back to the original problem of pigeon holing MMO players. Many 'hard core' players are people that move to the latest and greatest MMO and go through the content so fast that they can't be satisfied no matter what you do. If you plan on catering to this segment of MMO players, no matter how good you are, the game will fail. Even Blizzard realized this and began catering to the casual player. The casual players will stay for years, not just months, and won't blow through your content that took you years to develop in just a couple of months.

So, you want to have a profitable MMO? Go after the market that ensures the best return for your investment... the social aspect for the casual player. Quests, mobs, etc are all nice, but if you don't allow players to be social and give them the tools to do so, you'll be ignoring your best paying customers. Casual players are less demanding in many areas as long as they feel there is something to do. Just don't have a game that has lots of downtime and bugs as that will kill off your casual player base so fast it will make your head spin. When a casual player has like 2 hours a week to play, they want to log on and play. Not deal with bugs or downtime.

So, what kind of MMO? Who cares. Make a social MMO in a unique setting and give people something to do. Fantasy? Okay, kill stuff and get rid of the evil guys. Sci Fi? Okay, defend your planets from the invaders. Post Apocolyptic? Fine, kill off the zombies and keep yourself alive. Want something out of the box? How about a Renaisance MMO where politics and religion have to be dealt with to create a better world? The sky is the limit as long as you give people an environment to be as social as possible.

Personally? I'm a huge roleplayer and enjoyed the roleplaying experience that pen and paper D&D offered. The interaction between the group and the people/enemies we met was more than just casting a spell or wielding a sword. Creating a character with flaws was more fun than trying to create the perfect superman character that would never die. Life is about our flaws not about being invinceable. Overcoming the flaws is what makes great movies and stories... Why not make it part of MMOs?

While I will agree that Wow will look a bit dated in five years, it was a bit dated at release too. They settled for lower polygons and went with rich textures instead. This allowed them a very stylized look that, while not timeless, won't suffer from age like EQ1 did. EQ1 had low polygons also, but they were very generic in their textures as well. This really hit home for me when they came out with the Mac version of EQ1 and I tried their trial. I was amazed at how bad the textures were. Blizzard has always done a great job on their textures and since they are not trying for a realistic look, their superb artwork will allow their look to stand up for a quite a long time.

     Okay, let me see if I can help a little bit here for people who want to make a game without huge amounts of time and cost that people actually want play.

     First, stop trying to build the largest landmass possible. While it's great to feel epic, it's not required. Vanguard ran into this problem of having a huge epic sized world, but very little of it playable. Exploring is great if there is something to explore, but a great empty expanse means little.

     Second, think in terms of true roleplaying with real roleplayers. This seems to fly in the face of many MMORPG players who can go through content at lightspeed, but therein lies the problem. You spend years making a game and content that they consume in a matter of months then demand more immediately. No company has that kind of resources outside of Blizzard and even they can't get it out fast enough for the power players. Roleplayers just need the tools to roleplay with. They can provide many of the storylines for themselves. The bonus is that roleplayers are more loyal to a game and will stay much longer.

     Third, add storylines not quests. If you add some open ended storylines, have GMs participate in them to make them more interactive, you will gain a following so fast it would make your head spin. You will have to install some pieces of the storyline that don't require GM participation all the time. Think of cameos and people showing up at certain times in the storyline until it's time to have the final climax. Some MUDs have been the most successful at this.

     Fourth, make the game skill based and less level based. I find that with levels, people are constantly trying to get that next level. Heck, do away with levels of any kind, even skills. Have them seek trainers to train certain skills, keep the skills hidden from the player (can't see that I have 78.2 in a certain skill, just that I'm pretty good at it), then have players have to actually use different tactics with different mobs. One of the best games I played did this and it worked very well.

     Fifth, have base professions, but allow some flexibility. Have each profession allow them to skill up primary skills faster and have other skills much harder to level up since it's not part of their chosen profession.

     Lastly, use tools that don't require huge investments. People used to create very good 24/7 MMORPGs with Neverwinter Nights. BioWare is about to come out with DragonAge that will do what NWN did but even better. It was amazing how many people made custom addons to the game so you could continue to expand the game fairly easily. Then you can concentrate on the roleplaying and gameplay, not the minitua of a plant placement.

     I played in a 24/7 NWN world that was restricted to only 13 levels (since it was based on D&D, it had to be levels). It wasn't that big, but it was very well done. They had events on a fairly regular basis and it kept people involved for a very long time. Absentee GMs will kill a game like this fast. While it was never 'huge', it was poplulated by very strong and very loyal players.

     One of the requirements you'll need is a lot of volunteers, especially as GMs. There is no way one person can do this. Since you are not trying to do it for profit, this shouldn't be much of a problem really. There are tons of people who feel the way you do and want to be a part of creating an MMO. They have time on their hands and want to help, so take advantage of it.

     If you decided you don't want to do it anymore, I completely understand. Hopefully this will help a few future MMO designers out there. No one should try to make the perfect MMO or compete with WoW. It's just not possible. Just stick to your vision, keep it small to begin with and most of all... have fun.

Originally posted by HJ-DEZORIN

Well, as it's said, an artist is as good as his brushes.  Or was it a builder is only as good as his tools?  Regardless, with a strong foundation to work on, a lot more is possible.  All the polish that goes into HE will ultimately reflect positively on HJ, but again, there's that time thing.

 

It's difficult for me to empathize on the features you mention.  Heated seats are a nice feature on a car, that at the end of the day, don't necessarily mean I will like the car or not.  If they are there, hey that's nice, if not, ah well.  Maybe some other time.  Does that make sense?  Maybe there's specific ones you are worried about, but you haven't declared them.

 

Ultimately, it's how you like the game itself, not the gadgets or features that may be offered.  A lot of cool "knick knacks" can keep you distracted, but a poorly conceived game is just a poorly conceived game.  But even then, that's based on opinion.  I don't particularly care for Guild Wars, but tons of people really enjoy it.  To each their own.  Even if some other game comes out with the features you are thinking of, it may be a sci-fi, or post-apocolyptical... Maybe not the genre you really care for.

 

Of course, I cannot predict how RP-integrated the final product will be.  I'm just not sure.  All I can really go off is what most people already know.  Simutronics is known for niche games that tend to place more emphasis on role playing than Sham-WOW! type game play or features.  Considering GMs are an important part of Simutronics not just as customer service reps, but interactive dungeon-master type individuals, the experience may be superior than what is currently available.  Clearly, more market appeal is desired (as it's been said), but I don't think it'll be all that bad.

But I can't say at this point.  Partly because it's not something easy to predict, and partly because I really can't say a lot to begin with :)

 

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread now.  I'd rather be bumping another title to the top... :)

Well, I'm not sure about kewl knick-knacks, but two main features that were originally touted at a convention in '05 were non-linear gameplay and how players actions would actually effect the world. One of the non-linear features that struck me was when a party was confronted with a larger group of NPCs. Instead of just rushing in and doing battle, one of the players caused a landslide above the NPCs. That was an amazing piece, showing out of the box thinking. Unfortunately, now that HJ has been on the burner for so long, these features are being touted by others and due to come out soon, easily before HJ.

Again, I want to emphasize that I admire Simu's ability to create great games. My frustration isn't with that. It's just the constantly slipped release dates. This isn't something new for Simu though. Features for DR were always slipping their dates. Sometimes, promised features were complete scrapped. It's these kind of things that worry people. When we see a truly unique MMO show how great gameplay can be and then the date slips and no information is forthcoming, it makes us think the project might have been scrapped. For those who don't know, HJ has been scrapped before when it was going to be designed as a UO graphically styled game over 10 years ago. So there is precident.

As for the RP only server, on the official HJ forums where this has been discussed, it was stated many times that Simu has no plans to create such a server. So this isn't opinion. I'm just repeating what was stated by a HJ GM on the official play.net forums in the Hero's Journey section.

Depsite all of this, if HJ does come out,  I'll be there on the first day.

 I agree with Isane. WoW's claim to fame isn't groundbreaking features. It's producing a game that just about anyone can play. They went with a stylized graphic standard that allowed people with lower power computers to play and designed the gameplay to cater to casual players, not power players. That's where they succeeded and innovated. Everything else was pretty much already suggested or implemented by other MMOs.

Originally posted by HJ-DEZORIN

Originally posted by calmyron

 The title is wrong. Technically it's not over. Even the people at Simu will tell you that it's still in production. However, certain things did come to light. Hero's Journey was created to highlight their world building tool Hero's Engine. Originally they thought they would have to have an actual game out to sell licenses to their Hero's Engine. In fact, several studios have licensed the Hero's Engine and Hero's Journey became instantly a secondary concern. Now, Hero's Journey is currently staffed with nothing but volunteers working with Hero's Engine. They have lost some of their volunteers to some of the same studios that license the Hero's Engine as now they can get paid for their expertise on a live product coming out soon, whereas HJ will come out one day when someone feels it might be interesting for some to play.

Sorry for the pessimism. It's deserved and it's not. I love the volunteers at Simu, but the owner of Simu doesn't have the best track record when it comes to getting games and upgrades to market. He tends to enjoy his toys a bit more.

Still, I hope HJ does see the light of day...

...

I'm not surprised they have different teams now. From what information I've gathered, HJ is now on full volunteer status where as HE is on full pay status. That doesn't mean that HJ is getting the lesser of the talent, but they might have the lesser of the resources from Simu. Dragonrealms and GemStone are both done by a full set of volunteers and they are great games. Upgrades though are slow to show.

 

Just to clarify a few points, HJ is not being worked on by just volunteers.  Hopefully that will save you some looking around.

 

As for the stuff stated about the owner, maybe you have met him, maybe you have not.  From my own personal experience, I'd say your assessment is not very fair.  Nor is the assessment that HJ was just a bait-and-switch (demo for the engine).  It just... didn't happen that way.

 

I can understand people's frustration for the amount of time things have taken.  It's frustrating for the developers too.  But it isn't anyone's fault.  Creating an engine from scratch and a game from scratch is quite an undertaking.  This industry is cold, brutal, and highly competitive.  Strange though, because games are such a fun, warm, and fuzzy past-time (traditionally).  But it's a business too.  Some studios have a lot of resources and manpower at their disposal.  Others have to take things at their own pace.

 

Money doesn't grow on trees, and, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself (I'm starting to sound like my parents...)

 

The fact HE is a product being sold is good news for Hero's Journey. Some don't see it that way, but I do. It's a testament to the sophisticated technology that is driving the game.

 

I never actually said that HJ was a bait and switch. However, in the recent interview about HE, it was stated there that Simu felt they would have to produce a game before they could sell the engine.  They were surprised that other studios approached them when they heard the engine was available for licensing. So, Simu decided to go ahead and license the engine even though HJ wasn't complete.

So that's not special insider news, that's directly from a recent interview.

Now, while many of us really do understand that building the engine for an MMO is no small undertaking, Simu has provided release dates, even though they were a bit vague about when in a year, they did give a year. They have missed those dates every time. Recently it came to light that the licensing of the HE has taken the front burner to resources since it's now the cash cow of Simu. I don't mind that Simu has slipped their date. It's frustrating to a degree, but being a Dragonrealms player since 1997 (if I remember correctly... I rejoined after they went to the net from AOL), I'm used to Simu either being vague on when things come out or out right changing what was coming out at all. Complete systems that were promised have been scrapped.

So, with the recent events and interviews, and Simu's past history, it has lead many to worry about HJ ever seeing the light of day. Personally, I do believe it will come out one day. My worry is that once it comes out, all the features that would have made it unique will have been taken by other MMOs and it will seem just like every other game out there.

On a personal note, I'm also quite disappointed with the lack of commitment to the RP community as a whole. Dragonrealms has a very dedicated RP community and HJ has not committed to even having an RP only server. They haven't locked the door on this issue, but they have certainly closed it. One of the things that made DR so special to so many was that roleplaying was required and could even get you suspended if you didn't. Now, obviously, graphical MMOs are a different breed from MUDs, but just plain ignoring your strongest customer base seems... odd.

 I have to admit. For a game that's been upcoming for over five (5) years now, it's amazing how many people are still waiting to see this game come out. I worry that all the ground-breaking features they showed back on '05 will be hijacked by other games long before HJ comes out.

Still... if it does come out, I'll be on of the first to try it. Simu does have a reputation for coming out with quality MMOs... if they come out.

 I'm not surprised they have different teams now. From what information I've gathered, HJ is now on full volunteer status where as HE is on full pay status. That doesn't mean that HJ is getting the lesser of the talent, but they might have the lesser of the resources from Simu. Dragonrealms and GemStone are both done by a full set of volunteers and they are great games. Upgrades though are slow to show.

 The title is wrong. Technically it's not over. Even the people at Simu will tell you that it's still in production. However, certain things did come to light. Hero's Journey was created to highlight their world building tool Hero's Engine. Originally they thought they would have to have an actual game out to sell licenses to their Hero's Engine. In fact, several studios have licensed the Hero's Engine and Hero's Journey became instantly a secondary concern. Now, Hero's Journey is currently staffed with nothing but volunteers working with Hero's Engine. They have lost some of their volunteers to some of the same studios that license the Hero's Engine as now they can get paid for their expertise on a live product coming out soon, whereas HJ will come out one day when someone feels it might be interesting for some to play.

Sorry for the pessimism. It's deserved and it's not. I love the volunteers at Simu, but the owner of Simu doesn't have the best track record when it comes to getting games and upgrades to market. He tends to enjoy his toys a bit more.

Still, I hope HJ does see the light of day. As a former Dragonrealms player and GameHost, I always loved the quality of their games, even if it did take a too long to get stuff in the game. The players were always of the highest quality, especially when it came to true roleplayers. If HJ ever becomes the graphical equivalent of their MUDs, HJ will be a huge success. The only problem is that when it does come out, it will be more of a sigh of relief than a cheer of excitement.

 They did have some really good ideas, especially with player actions affecting the world in sweeping ways. You actions could actually have affected other aspects of the game for other players. Now it seems all their great ideas are being taken by other MMOs, so even if it does come out eventually, it will probably seem tired and not very imaginative. All because they dragged their feet.

 When I did some research on licensing of the engine, it seemed to imply that the maker of the engine only received any substantial amount of money on residuals. So until the game is released by BioWare, Simu may have already used it's initial license fee up already. That would definitely cash strap Simu.

 Yeah, kinda seems that way. Too bad. This MMO had tons of great ideas and possibilities. Now, even if it does come out, all their new ideas have been taken by other MMOs.

 Okay, I know this isn't much, but it was posted within the last couple of months, after the reported layoffs, on January 9th on the official HJ forums at Play.net:

All I can say(In any of the three identical topics) is that yes development is still happening. Sadly beyond that I can't really say much as I don't really know what I am allowed to or not, so to be on the safe side I don't post much. Just haven't seen someone respond in a bit so wanted to give some reassurance it is happening. Believe me, some of us are just as impatient as yall are;)

HJ-Kraken

Okay, so it's not much, but at least one person is still working on the project. LOL

 Simu is still making a profit from their MUDs, but who knows about the Engine. Licensing deals confuse the heck out of me and there is some realistic comments about Simu borrowing some substantial amounts of money to get the engine done. With the credit well pretty much dried up, this could very well account for the layoffs and the decision to put JH on the backburner.

I don't agree that it's over. The powers at the top would like to finish the game. Now, whether the MMO marketplace and the economy will allow that to happen, we'll see. I for one would like to see it come out, but even if it doesn't, there are plenty of good MMOs coming.

 I used to be a GameHost for Dragonrealms for about a year. Simutronics is very secretive though and getting information, even when you are the low man in the loop, is pretty much non-existant. What I did learn is there are quite a few talent people with time on their hands that wanted to help make a game they enjoyed better. I'm sure HJ is no different, but since it was a graphic MMO, it does take a certain level of talent that a text based game does not.

It is interesting though. I found the comments about HJ on the backburner a bit out of context here. I highly recommend reading the original interview. There's no doubt that HJ is on the backburner, but it's not dead. I'm sure they have a desire to actually see HJ see the light of day. Now, whether reality of the MMO marketplace and the economy will allow that, we'll just have to wait and see.

Simutronics though has never met a deadline... ever. This could be see as good or bad depending on your perspective. I'm still hoping it will come out, but I won't mind playing other MMOs until it does.

 I am curious how Simutronics is doing financially. They still have viable MUDs that people still pay monthly for. Outside of some server costs and infrastructure costs, those games should be generating a profit. You would also think that Hero's Engine is generating a profit by now. As for layoffs, not sure why they would lay off volunteers since most of the builders worked for free.

It obvious that the engine has taken center stage here. More than likely they ended up with a property that is in demand and don't have the infrastructure there to keep it afloat. Cash flow problems can be a major pain.

However, I don't see Simu going defunct any time soon and they have back burnered HJ before. For some that might remember, HJ was going to be a UO styled game for a bit, then EQ came out and they back burnered it then. I guess that's when they looked at the 3D market potential and decided to go that route. However, seeing the lack of decent building tools and the fact they have built their own systems from scratch before, it makes sense that they designed the Hero Engine.

All we can hope for at this point is that their financial situation and the financial windfall opportunities of making HJ improve. That's about the only reason HJ will see the light of day at this point.

As far as future MMOs go, HJ and Star Trek Online are the only ones that seem to interest me now. I guess STO will become my primary focus instead of HJ. Oh, well... I'll keep a side glance view available.