Originally posted by RefMinor
Can I just take this opportunity to throw in this quote for the hell of it.

 

 

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts. "There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves."

Nancy McIntyre was never the senior director of SWG, or any other LEC game.  She was the Vice President of Marketing at LEC, who was in charge of the advertising effort that came along with the NGE (there were even TV ads for the starter kit pack).  She had nothing to do with the development of SWG.

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by superniceguy

Here as said by PEX, and you even knew about it. It does not matter whether you or I consider it to be a MMO, but if they do not categorise it as a MMO, then it is not a MMO and it is quite safe, and even if that is not the case, then the game are so different, there could many other reasons why it is safe. But this argument has gotten really silly indeed, as my point is that SWG and SWTOR can not co-exsit, CWA is irrelevant

If SWG gets shut down on 4 full HEAVY servers, then so should CWA. If CWA does not get shut down, then it was not population levels that shut down SWG.

No.

I mean PROOF of your claim that there can't be 2 Star Wars MMO's. Like I said, you have none. You'll NEVER have proof to back up that assertion because it's FALSE! All I ask is that you refrain from spreading dishonesty and lies as truth.

Listen...they could claim to have had 4 "full" servers, but you and I both know that it was a FRACTION of what it once was. Given the fact that SWTOR was going to take 90% of the remaining players, I assure you, there wouldn't be enough for ONE 'full" server today if the game had lived. It was a business decision and one of the few smart ones SOE made.

The entire idea of there only being one Star Wars MMO came from a post that was made by a forum mod, who has no connection to LucasArts other than having a server admin give him the ability to be a moderator on that forum, who made a post on the LucasArts forum making that claim.  Nobody from LucasArts has had anything to do with the forums on their site for several years, nor has anyone from LucasArts, SOE, or EA ever made such a claim.  In fact, people from all those companies have made the exact opposite claim when TOR was announced.

Besides, if the whole Highlander "There can be only one!" Star Wars MMO conspiracy theory was true, wouldn't that mean that the folks at poor innocent SOE were lying for the past few years in an attempt to get players to continue paying subscription fees and for virtual card packs (to try and get the loot card items) for a product they knew was going to be shutting down?  Kinda like the time employees of the same poor innocent company, SOE, were promoting items and features contained in their new expansion, while knowing that said items and features would be removed from the game within two weeks of the expansion's release?

Originally posted by hipiap

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

(and somwewhat proud of it)

who else didn't touched that POS $OE thought at us that was NGE ?

I am a pure PRE - NGE'r and my respect goes to pure PRE CU 'r  who even didn't touched and resisted even the CU.

 

 

That is a shame, you missed out big time. You can not call it a POS if you never played it, and the NGE ended up being awesome in the end. To base an opinion off of others is nothing to do be proud of.

As for the sig - you never won, as  both SW MMOs could not run side by side, and SWTOR won by default. If SWG stayed active and then bombed with the release of SWTOR and then closed then you would have won, but if SWG did not close I reckon people would have left SWTOR and started playing SWG, killing SWTOR. Most posts I see on the official forums is from people negatively criticising SWTOR, even ones who did not like/play SWG. I do not see people playing SWTOR much after 6 months, if that.

SWTOR will be great and all and give a better experiemnce than SWG, but will be short lived. SWGs systems kept you hooked for eternity. I could never see myself quitting SWG, even after playing it solidly from July 2003. I can not see myself playing SWTOR after a few months

It was a buggy and uninspired POS! I played all 3 versions. I can state that the NGE took away more than just a few professions and destroyed the original strength of the game, the community. SOE never understood what they had - before twitter, before MySpace, before facebook, there was the social game SWG.

And you're wrong. 2 Star Wars MMOs CAN co-exist and DO co-exist (both licensed too). To state otherwise is ignorant and false.

Question Tux....

Why do you continually neglect to recall that LEC and Nancy McIntyre were in charge of telling SOE what to do to SW:G?

 

I'm not going to say SOE was blameless in what happened to the game I loved in 2004 and 2005...but to not point the finger at LEC strikes me as slightly amusing.

 

Do you care to comment why you have consistantly placed all the blame for the NGE on SOE and None on LEC?

Because everyone involved with the making the NGE, who have commented on how the NGE came about, have said it was the SOE developers' idea.  Nancy McIntyre was the VP of Marketing at LEC (Julio Torres was LEC's producer for SWG).  She had nothing to do with the development of SWG.  Alan Crosby (Brenlo), the former Director of Global Communications at SOE, was specifically asked on the OBoards if LEC forced the NGE on SOE, his answer was "No".  Jeff Freeman, the former Lead Gameplay Designer at the time of the NGE, posted on this and two other forums about how the NGE came about (his forum name is "Dundee"), explained it was a snowball effect from the idea of making a trial area for new players that could be fit on a disc and included with game magazines (the idea came from EQ2's trial area).

Hell, Helios posted on  (I think it was) the MMOFringe site why creature handlers were removed from the game.  His description of the process was him saying 'Hey Dan!  Pets are getting in the way of targeting!' and the response 'Cut 'em!'.  Dan being Dan Rubenfield, the Lead Designer of SWG at the time, who was the guy who built the psuedo-FPS combat system in his spare time, after which he and Jeff Freeman had to convince "The Man" that they had to change SWG's pre-NGE combat system to the single worst combat system found in any MMO to this day.  He was also the guy who posted an explitative filled rant on his blog that gave a little more info about the origin of the NGE, which was later replaced with a sanitized version that was much less informative.  Mr. rubenfield blames the failure of the NGE on marketing, not the fact that the NGE, until its final death, was an horrible, unfun mess of a game.

Alan Crosby posted on the OBoard that the NGE was concieved, designed, and developed at SOE, after which he expressed his pride to work for a company that was willing to screw over their customers in the manner SOE did.

LEC did not force SOE to do the NGE.  LEC allowed SOE to do the NGE.

Originally posted by superniceguy

 

I am not the only person who thinks like this, and what we say IS reality. Guess the majority of other sensible people like me just have the better sense not to bother with these forums

Bioware and SOE are the Fall Guys, LA are the owners of SW. How hard is that to grasp?

It would probably be easier to understand if every single person involved with the CUNGE, that have commented on how the NGE came about, have all said it was the folks at SOE that came up with it and worked to convince LEC that it was necessary.  LEC's main amount of guilt was that they didn't say "No" to the boneheaded ideas the folks at SOE came up with.  Flying Ewoks, fairy wings and diapers were the brainchild of the SOE dev team (I believe they were Swede's idea specifically).  The zombie themepark was because former SOE lead producer for SWG, Deadmeat, heard about a Star Wars book that had zombies in it and admmitted he basically begged LEC to allow them to add it in.

The NGE started as an idea to have a trial area for new players, and snowballed into the disaster it was by the SOE dev team comming up with new ideas to 'improve' the game, each more horrible than the last.  The psuedo-FPS combat system was the brainchild of the then SOE lead designer (Dan Rubenfield) who slapped it together in his spare time (much like a number of the additions over the past few years to the game were done in the spare time of certian dev team members, such as the appearance tab and atmospheric flight).

The NGE was SOE's baby.  What LEC should be held responsible for is not killing it in the womb.  Unfortunately, they trusted SOE to know what they were doing, which is always a mistake.

Originally posted by Shayde

Originally posted by TUX426

Long thread filled with insane conspiracies

LMFAO!!! Wait...are you SERIOUSLY thinking they delayed SWTOR because SWG was still active?! OMFG! Dude...they had 1.5 million people in EARLY RELEASE! The highest SWG ever got was 500k BEFORE the NGE and below 25k ALL of the NGE.

Neither Bioware nor LA give a f'k about SWG. You and your 100 players didn't mean dick to SOE, LA or Bioware. Seriously...stop with the conspiracy crap. SWG players weren't even a THOUGHT in SWTORs release - the less than 1500 of you didn't even account for 0.1% (not 1%... POINT.1%) of the Early release buyers.  0.1%!!!

You can feel however you like about CWA - but it IS classified by the INDUSTRY as an MMO. And I read what you wrote - in fact, I even quoted you and highlighted your false statement.

Well put Tux.

The only thought Bioware had regarding $OE was hiring some of the old developers to help design TOR. After that, they were completely in the rear view mirror.

They had 100 times the preorders for TOR than SWG has players. Do you really think they cared? That LA cared?

 

The reasons SWG ended when it did were...

1. The license for the IP ended December 31st, 2011 and Smed didn't think it worth attempting to renew it.

2. Smed could save thousands by cutting it off on the 15th instead of the 31st, especially knowing that there'd only be a HANDFUL of players in SWG post TOR.

 

Y'all need to get your tinfoil hats on, because LA and Bioware had NOTHING to do with SWG closing, it was a business decision that $OE made, SMED SAID SO HIMSELF.

It is amusing that the defenders of SOE are trying very hard to contradict one of the very few good business decisions SOE had made.  SWG had a very small and still dwindling playerbase.  The Smed made the right decision to ditch SWG instead of signing a new multi-year contract to continue the game, given the fact that TOR was going to draw away a good chunk of the folks who were still subbed to SWG on the basis that it resembled Star wars somewhat.

SWG was all but dead prior to the closure announcement.  The OBoards were loaded with posts begging for further server merges.  SOE made a good decision to close the game.

Originally posted by Lowcaian

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Lowcaian

Originally posted by returnintor

Originally posted by Lowcaian

Originally posted by returnintor

Originally posted by Lowcaian

Even after the NGE it was vey much sandbox. Some people keep on harping about the NGE (yes I was there all the way) and today keep spreading misinformation even though they quit in 05. The game just after the NGE which was horrible was not at all the same game as in late 06 and onwards, and it's time people realize that. It improved a lot.

 

The last months they added atmospheric flight, and even though rushed due to the closure it worked pretty well. I had a lot of fun dogfighting over Bestine.

The last night there was an ISD over Coronet, not a wallpaper but an actual real ISD (same as in DS) it was huge took me 20 sec to fly by it, it was attackable.

I stood on the ground watching the leviathan and a Vak did a low pass at top speed, it looked awesone and it was not a particle effect but a "real" fighter with a player in the cockpit.

 

Polish was lacking but it is sad to know that a game that outguns every modern mmorpg in concept and amount of features is now gone.

You do know that 'atmospheric flight' was built into the engine about a year after launch. It's just been sitting in the code for years because Smedley was too lazy and greedy to spend the little more money it would have taken to polish it and then release it as a - paid - expansion. Its release two months or so before close-down was just one final f.u. to the players by SOE.

I am aware that ground and space uses the same engine, I do not believe you because what you are saying doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Feel free to prove me wrong, and even if you can do so I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that featurewise SWG was far superior to anything else out there, no matter which of its three incarnations you hold up as an example.

LOL.

"I do not believe you because what you are saying doesn't make sense from a business perspective."

Does anybody else who's had any dealings with SOE over SWG want to chip in on this one? I don't trust myself.

You offer no arguments, only your personal opinion that SOE are the devil. While they have at times messed up in a big way I very much doubt they did what they did with the intent of decreasing income.

 

The entire post launch development history of SWG doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

 

 

Yes it does if and I say if (since nobody knows for sure) there was a panic reaction coupled with pressure from the IP owner. But it wasn't the objective of my first post to discuss business decisions but to point out that even in its NGE form ,SWG was a sandbox and as far as features went it put many newer games to shame.

How does a history of chasing away customers make sense from a business perspevtive?  The only sandbox features that were left post NGE was the housing system and the crafting system, which was rendered useless until they added WoW's enchanting system to it.  The NGE core systems were horribly implemented and the NGE combat system never propperly functioned due to the game engine not being able to handle it.  When a member of the development team finally admitted the game engine couldn't handle the combat system (which came a few years after a number of players and former players pointed the fact out, but was denied by the dev team), he made it a point to mention that they would not do anything to fix the problem.  That mentality was a problem from the day the game launched, quality and functionality was never a concern with the developers.

As for the IP holder pressuring SOE to make the game the horrible pit of dispair it was, that was denied by the former Director of Global Communications at SOE, Alan Crosby, on the official forums when he was asked if LucasArts force the NGE on SOE (his answer to that drect question was "No" and he then expressed his pride at the company making the largest and most costly blunder in MMO history).  The former Lead Gameplay Designer, Jeff Freeman, gave some insight on how the NGE came about on the SWG forum on this site (search for posts by "Dundee").  The former Lead Designer, Dan Rubenfield, has a long, though sanitised post on his blog about the NGE and its origins (the original version can be found and displays more of the mentality toward the game's playerbase that caused the NGE).  Finally, one of the former dev team members (GreenMarine, who's real name I can't remember at the moment) left a couple comments on the Broken Toys blog which was discussing the Rubenfield blog post, stating the problem was with the SOE producers thinking they knew better than the customers what the customers really wanted (he specifically stated the LEC producers were not a problem) and ignoring what the players were asking for (content) in favor of screwing up the core game systems.

SWG was a game that launched with a ton of potential, but the longer it was live, the more and more that potential was stripped from the game, until all that was left was the abomination that finally went dark a few days ago, and as such, the cumulative quality of the current MMO landscape has increased.

Originally posted by Lowcaian

Originally posted by returnintor

Originally posted by Lowcaian

Originally posted by returnintor

Originally posted by Lowcaian

Even after the NGE it was vey much sandbox. Some people keep on harping about the NGE (yes I was there all the way) and today keep spreading misinformation even though they quit in 05. The game just after the NGE which was horrible was not at all the same game as in late 06 and onwards, and it's time people realize that. It improved a lot.

 

The last months they added atmospheric flight, and even though rushed due to the closure it worked pretty well. I had a lot of fun dogfighting over Bestine.

The last night there was an ISD over Coronet, not a wallpaper but an actual real ISD (same as in DS) it was huge took me 20 sec to fly by it, it was attackable.

I stood on the ground watching the leviathan and a Vak did a low pass at top speed, it looked awesone and it was not a particle effect but a "real" fighter with a player in the cockpit.

 

Polish was lacking but it is sad to know that a game that outguns every modern mmorpg in concept and amount of features is now gone.

You do know that 'atmospheric flight' was built into the engine about a year after launch. It's just been sitting in the code for years because Smedley was too lazy and greedy to spend the little more money it would have taken to polish it and then release it as a - paid - expansion. Its release two months or so before close-down was just one final f.u. to the players by SOE.

I am aware that ground and space uses the same engine, I do not believe you because what you are saying doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Feel free to prove me wrong, and even if you can do so I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that featurewise SWG was far superior to anything else out there, no matter which of its three incarnations you hold up as an example.

LOL.

"I do not believe you because what you are saying doesn't make sense from a business perspective."

Does anybody else who's had any dealings with SOE over SWG want to chip in on this one? I don't trust myself.

You offer no arguments, only your personal opinion that SOE are the devil. While they have at times messed up in a big way I very much doubt they did what they did with the intent of decreasing income.

The entire post launch development history of SWG doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

Originally posted by Dredphyre

Wow....this...I'm at a loss for words.  SWG has been so off my radar that I hadn't even heard about atmospheric flight.  Question is, after wanting this for several years, do I throw $15 at SOE for one month of kewlnees....

 

 

The last day to resub to SWG was September 15th, so you couldn't throw your $15 at SOE even if you wanted to for some godforsaken reason.

A lot of it had to do with only having one character per server per account and unique names.  Less anonymity makes people less lilely to act like asses.  It was one of the major things that the original SWG devs learned from UO.  The massive amount of greifing going on in UO was the main reason for the single character per server limit in SWG.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by Khaine007

TOR is looking great, only I wish they had player housing, although I'm sure that's something they'll add in later in the game.  There is plenty that they can still add in post-launch, just as SWG added in later patches/expansions.

 

 

Have you ever known an MMO to add player housing after launch day?

Housing was added to Lotro several months after launch and EQ had housing added in an expansion almost a year ago (over ten years post launch).  None of that means houses will be added to TOR, but it it has happened before.

Originally posted by MMOtoGO

If all the people who say how great the game was and are going to miss it actually paid for a sub, the game wouldn't shut down?

The game that most are saying was great isn't the game that is shutting down.  That game has already been gone for several years.

Originally posted by Paradigm68

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Paradigm68

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by Paradigm68

All of this misses the larger point that even if the game wasn't closing on 12/15 it wouldn't be worth money.

That's only your decision to make with your money though, even if I agree with it, I'm not going to go around telling people to not play it if they like it. I've personally never understood the appeal of WoW, but I don't feel the need to proselytize against it. 

Yes you're right, its a highly subjective opinion. But in this case I happen to be right.

You'd be wrong, as myself and others pay for multiple accounts to SWG, and not just one, and is all well worth the money, as is the most unique MMO on the market, with advanced features that no MMO has, and never will again. If you have played WOW, then you have played them all. The next best MMO after SWG, is STO.

I've never paid any money to Blizzard / WOW, and may never do

SWTOR is just going to be WOW in a SW skin, so SWTOR will all be waste of money if you have played WOW

Nope. Any money given to SOE for SWG at this point is a complete waste.

That has been the case for several years now.

Originally posted by erictlewis

Right now at this point they would have to pay me to play.  I used my 45 free days,  game over.

It wasn't worth my time to use the 45 free days, and the game certainly isn't worth paying for.  As far as being paid to play it, well, it would depend on how much money is being offered.  It definitely wouldn't be cheap.

Originally posted by Evile

This explaination is all BS. Lucas Arts simply is not going to have product in direct competition with their own product.

They are shedding the old to have those people support the new.

There is no way SWG can't turn profit just keeping it running. They could easily have hired the EMU crew. MANY programmers would have kepts SWG up free.

This is just to support LA's new product. Any other excuse is a lie.

No, the expalnation makes a ton of sense.  The subscriber population is small enough that any major investment into the game is a waste of resourses with little to no return on the investment.  For SOE, it comes down to the fact that they can get a better return on their investment by taking the resourses they invest in SWG and investing them into something with the potential for growth.  For LucasArts, I doubt they cared very much what happened to SWG, since their involvement was little more than approving the crap SOE did to the game, cashing the checks from SOE, and telling anyone who mentioned SWG to them to talk to SOE.

The tiny SWG playerbase will have no effect on TOR's success or failure.  The most likely reason for SWG closing down is that the folks at SOE think they can make more money by using the resourses they invest in SWG and investing them elsewhere.  It would be illegal for SOE to use unpaid volunteers to maintain their commercial product, so the idea of free programmers maintaining the game for them is a non-starter.

Originally posted by hipiap

Originally posted by Xondar123

A) Lucas Arts isn't shutting down SWG, SOE is. B) How can TOR be NGE2 if it is an entirely different game from SWG?

Ho hum, more "I wanted SWG2!" complaints.

It was confirmed by an LA rep...on the LucasArts forums...that the Fired former Head of the LA MMO department didn't want SW:G and TOR to compete and was able to get a 'No Compete Clause" added to the TOR contract between LA and EA (owners of Bioware).

LA bought out the remainder of the SW:G contract so that it would not be around after the End of this year....the Rumor I'm hearing from CS at SOE is that LA originally wanted SW:G shut down by November 1st...but SOE pushed for New Years Eve and was able to secure the 15th of December.

Comments from Smedley point out that the SW:G population was Stable and had been for some time.

I find a LucasArts rep making such a post on the LucasArts forum to be highly unlikely, give no one from LucasArts reads or posts to the LucasArts forums.  I don't suppose you have a link to the post, do you?

As for the Smed's statement, he has also said that he could have renegotiated with LucasArts to continue running SWG, but choose no to.  Hell, given the game's history, shutting it down was the first good decision the folks at SOE have made since the game went live.

Originally posted by ukforze

Originally posted by wrekognize

 too bad you threw the CDs away. those go for anywhere between $30 to $90 on amazon, depending on the version you have...

LOL WTF?

You can buy swg for a couple of pound on play.com & JTL for about 99p

 

...you know why? ...cos thats all its worth.

Factoring in the packaging materials and CDs, I'd say that price is still way too high.

Originally posted by SuprGamerX

 Heh , so I'm reading this word for word , and if I'm getting this straight , what will happen if let's say 5 years from now they release Star Wars : The NEW republic (lame example) ?   Are they just going to close Old republic as if nothing ever hapenned?  Lineage 1 and 2 have no problems running along with Aion , so I fail to understand why Galaxies can't run along with ToR?   And another thing that raises questions , if every MMO is under contract and a contract ends , does it simply mean they turn off the game and run away with all the profit they made out of us?

  I don't know , that's just my way of seeing things , which is way out the box.

One of the reasons the Smed cited was "the way the product performed".  The sub numbers are low enough to where losing any of them to TOR would make the game not profitable.  That is why SOE had no interest in extending the contract.  If SWG had enough subs, they would have extended the contract.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by firefly2003

I would like to see SOE develop a full fledged sci-fi MMO of their own original IP perhaps thats the "secret MMO" they are talking about perhaps?

Seeing that SOE just cancelled The Agency which already had 5 years work put into it, I don't think they have a secret mmo in the works. 

I think the sandbox comment Smed has made is going to be in reference to planetside or eq3.  That is just speculation on my part and could be totally wrong.

The Agency had a lot going against it.  It was intended to be a free to play cash shop game, but the failure of Free Realms cause the original design to be scrapped in favor of a pay to play game.  Around the same time, the lead devs on the game left SOE to form their own company, and took most of the dev team with them.  On top of that, The Agency was going to be a FPS MMO, and the decision to make a new Planetside game would make The Agency redundant.

I took the Smed's sandbox comments to be typical the Smed BS, and I doubt SOE will release anything resembling a sandbox style game ine either the near or distant future.

Originally posted by Iadien

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by Redemp

Originally posted by Sharkypal

http://www.soe.com/pc.vm?sel=upcoming

With SWG gone, they don't have much to recommend them tbh and nothing in the pipe.

 I think you are forgeting : Planetside 2  and Everquest 3 .

I asure you most Sony fans are frothing for these two releases.

 I hear EQ3 is a ps3 release, which means another POS from SOE.  Planetside might be decent, have to wait and see about that one.

This need to support the obsolecent PS3 will be SOE's downfall.

and who did you hear this from? Because Smed nor Smokejumper have said it would be on the PS3. Why feed into rumor BS?

 

The Smed said around the release of Free Realms that all future SOE MMOs would be released on consoles (meaning Sony ones) as well as PC.

Originally posted by SioBabble

Originally posted by Daffid011

Great games sell themselves. 

With POSITIVE word of mouth from satisfied customers.

NGE SWG has never had that in vast quantities.

That's the main thing.  Go into any other MMO and mention SWG and you'll start a conversation about how bad the game is.  Most of the people who have tried the current game don't find it to be a good game, and they aren't shy about expressing their feelings about it when the topic comes up.

You can go through this forum and read posts from people who tried the free trial.  Some are negative right off the bat, and others start off positive, but as time goes on the original poster slowly grows more and more negative towards the game.  Those are always enjoyable threads.

SWG is currently a buggy, unfun mess of a game.  The core game systems a horiibly implemented, and the game engine cannot handle the psuedo-FPS combat system.  The combat system is still the horrid system that went live with the NGE, the devs just slapped a target lock on top of it because they didn't want to waste the effort (nor did they have the talent) to implement a collision detection system.  One of the developers finally admitted, about a year ago (which had been pointed out to them and denied by them since the NGE went live), the game engine couldn't handle the combat system, but added that they had no intention of fixing the problem.