I really dont see how you can draw any kind of correlation between shadowbane and quake.. They're two totally different experiences as far as gameplay goes. In quake you're locked in a tiny little room where you can run around picking up the weapon of your choice and then proceed to shoot everyone in the face with it so that you can kill them in one shot. Does even one little bit of that sound like fun? Not to me..

Considering the fact that quake is a FPS and SB is an MMORPG it doesnt even make sense to compare them, in my mind its like comparing apples to avocados. Sure they both start with the letter A and they grow on trees but thats as far as the similarity goes. Show me a character in SB that can kill people in one shot or can pick up a skill or grab a power up while fighting 20 people in a small room, it just doesnt work that way in SB you need strategy and planning to succeed, as well as skill and quick reactions.

Now according to your last post, which i dont need to quote since its directly above this one, you like a little challenge with your MMO's, well my friend it seems to me you're making the perfect argument for why the SB Pvp model should be accepted throughout all MMO's today. I mean what could be more challenging then fighting something that can think for it's self, counter your strategy, and fight back with one of it's own?

As far as the diversity i mentioned, i was talking about diversity of the actual characters, not their costumes. I dont think coloring my cape purple makes me all that different since all the skills i pick are the same. Shadowbane employs a class based skill system, wherein you pick your class early on and then you get access to a number of skills and powers which you can level up and make stronger. Since its so cheap to get all the skills initally ( im talking about spending one point in each skill just for access ) we might as well assume that every character gets access to every skill/power and can from that point choose where they want to specialize. In a game like CoH you get to pick your primary abilities, and a secondary set of abilities. While this offers a good amount of diversity, after a while you start to realize, if i want to do a lot of damage i should make my blaster such-and-such a way, etc. Then you get all the FOTM builds and its just really not very fun/customized imo. Not to say the same thing doesnt happen in SB, but since every class can be viable in so many different ways it tends to be a minimal problem, as well as giving you lots of room to experiment with new stuff.

And i understand the argument of the flawed developers putting the flawed content into their flawed game, im saying quests arent very fun to begin with why would i want to base my leveling experience on that or fighting the same mindless AI in a different skin my entire career. And roleplaying.. I dont think i can conjure a better game for roleplaying storming a castle then SB. To be honest my first guild in SB was a full RP guild and it was a blast, if you want to RP in SB you gotta look for 'em,  on mourning there was an entire guild that RPed being an Elf society with minotaur slaves etc. And they did well.

 

This is the only quote im going to make from your post:

"MMOs should not be played simply for "uber-gear" or "I'll kick newbie's rear," it should be simply a nice experience, with a diverse set, and choices to make. They shouldn't just be a button-mash."

Did you ever play shadowbane past level 20? Diversity and fun are SB's middle name. If you played it and simply mashed buttons all the time then you probably didnt have a really enjoyable experience. Also you could do very well with store bought garbage, as long as you had the skill to back it up.

If I had to play a game that was exclusively PvE then I agree with you it has to be challenging. To take it another step forward I would rather play a game where all the NPC's you fight are identical to players, not in look but as far as skills/stats/ and strategy goes. When I take on a camp of brigands how come i hit them three times and they die but i just got hit 30 and im still going? Not fun. Make the experience of fighting anything an epic battle and then I could understand why PvE could be fun, sadly most MMO's think pve should just be a great big time sink to keep players sitting in their world for as long as possible.

 

Omg if u wanna play a pve game go buy wow and play with all the other 13 year olds. The only reasons that shadowbane is so good is the pvp and the character customization are the most innovative and challenging thus far in any mmo.

I honestly dont understand people who enjoy PvE... The thrill of lining up to kill the same thing you killed yesterday is wasted on me i guess. Especally considering tomorrow you have to go out and kill it again cuz thats all there is to do in a pve based game. Its all one big meaningless grind.

Raiding is even more stupid... "What?! The most powerful beast in the game is this dragon? That group just killed it?!... I want to kill it now too! Man i just killed this thing lets do it again and again and again even though this entire concept makes absolutly no sense. How can i kill the dragon if that other group just did?! Who cares, i want l3wtz so i can kill it faster next time?!?!?!?!"

Also please dont get my started on quests.. The inclusion of quests in a game is almost as bad as making me kill the same mobs for weeks at a time to get a couple levels.. All it is is swapping one type of grind for another. At least in a PVP game the fight is always new and theres always a chance you'll win, or a way to change up your strategy to trump the other guys.

What I personally loved about shadowbane is that in less then a day i could have an r7 toon totally completly trained up and NEVER HAVE TO KILL ANOTHER MOB AGAIN. Until I leveled up the next one that is. Lol.

That and the fact that success is based nearly 100% on the skill of the player, not which fancy glowing sword he has, and not cuz he rolled the FOTM toon. He won cuz he owns you.

To be honest i skipped over a lot of what was written here, but from what i read the gist of it is Skill>Class.

To me class is better for a couple of reasons, although implemented poorly it can be much much worse causing the final product to be a horrible game no one would ever like to play (WoW)...


Basically from my own personal experience i think that most of the skills based systems that are around and successful today are at least slightly modeled after Ultima Online which in my humble opinion is the best implementation of a skill based system thus far. SWG was good but could be used to make the experience worse for some people and better for others, Eve i havnt had the pleasure to play but it sounds like a horrible grind to me. And at its core i believe that is what the skill based system's flaw is.. Sorry but having to grind out 100900203192031900912 swings of my sword to GM it is not a fun time in MMO land for me. And then if i want to raise my magic i have to cast 2392131290 spells 15000000 times each, no thanks.

It could work out well but i think many Developers today design games that people will have to play each character for 50-60-70+ hours to get to a level where you can be able to stand on your own two feet and enjoy the game fully for what you're there for, be that pvp or whatever else. If skill progression were fast enough in most games or things like afk-macroing were widely accepted Skill would far surpass class imo. I dont pay 15$ a month for a game that i wont even be able to enjoy for the first two months because im too busy grinding to level 40 where i can finally do the fun stuff.

Looking at the class based system i think there are a lot of pros. I think it gives you some level of diversity without allowing you to stray too far from the core goals of the build you're going after. It makes no sense for a mage to hit as hard as a warrior, or wear the best armor or anything else like that. I think that the main drawback of the class system is when you have too few classes to choose from. I.e. WoW.... Oh Snap, i can be any of 5 different things and depending on how i make my toon i can either be gimp, or just like everyone else. No thanks.

To be fun and successful i think you need a system that has a large amount of variety and a lower level of grinding. In a skill based system i think this requires you to remove most of the grind, because grind = no fun. And with a class system i think you need to increase the level of variety. Warrior/Healer/Mage is just no longer acceptable.

Take shadowbane for instance, not many people play anymore as its quite old but, 21 classes!! With that many classes there are literally 7-8 different ways you can do each job. Each allows for a different play style and you can even have a wide variety within each class. I'm not saying its the best game ever but honestly i think its the best implementation of any class based system i have ever played.

To conclude Class > Skill when you have a large amount of variety within the classes
and Skill > Class when advancement is fairly quick.

In either event a poorly made game will always be worse then a well made game despite design.