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All Posts by Vesavius

All Posts by Vesavius

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6234 posts found

Let's look at the last decade. A decade where to PvP mentality has dominated. 

A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

Where has that brought us, really?

Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by BlackLotusDragon

Show your support and help us put the RPG back into MMORPG!


Is it another MMORPG that puts PvP at the front?

Because, yeah, fuck those.

No. It puts building communities at the front. PvP is in because it's a Sandbox that includes real world simulation of community interaction.

And that's a big reason for the 100 Life Counters. If some players want to just keep PvPing just for the sake of it, just to grief, they won't last long. Whole communities will be a looking to do them in.


Ahh, ok, PvP focused then. ok.


Still waiting for the sandbox game that doesn't fall back on that particular crutch.


Thanks for the explanation though.

Sure thing. At least you know you won't like this game and can find what you do like.



exactly, and that's I believe in being direct. I won't be trolling the game for it's choices or anything, I can only wait for the dev to arrive that understands the long term potence of a true quality PvE sandbox title.


Good luck to this and those that support it though. I don't hate diversity in this genre.

Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by BlackLotusDragon

Show your support and help us put the RPG back into MMORPG!


Is it another MMORPG that puts PvP at the front?

Because, yeah, fuck those.

No. It puts building communities at the front. PvP is in because it's a Sandbox that includes real world simulation of community interaction.

And that's a big reason for the 100 Life Counters. If some players want to just keep PvPing just for the sake of it, just to grief, they won't last long. Whole communities will be a looking to do them in.


Ahh, ok, PvP focused then. ok.


Still waiting for the sandbox game that doesn't fall back on that particular crutch.


Thanks for the explanation though.

Originally posted by BlackLotusDragon

Show your support and help us put the RPG back into MMORPG!


Is it another MMORPG that puts PvP at the front?

Because, yeah, fuck those.

Originally posted by Alverant
Originally posted by Skavenaps

Sorry, but NCsoft closed CoH. Only for that, they deserve my endless hate.

Go Nexon Go!



You know a genre is fucked when folks are cheering Nexon.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When was the last time, for you, when something happened in an MMO that truly threw you for a loop, or got you scared/worried for your character?

Is it possible to have that happen again? Or is it now too much, "Been there. Done That." with today's MMOs?

Share stories if you wish :)


P99. Sol A. Yeah, that place still terrifies me with the wrong class.

Before that, AA, protecting a big trade run.


So, apparently it is entirely possible, given the right systems... Nothing to do with 'been there, done that' at all. 

Shame the right core systems are so incredibly rare in today's games. 

The core MMORPG is over for the next decade or so IMO, as far as big money AAA investment goes anyhow. There is just too much other low hanging fruit in other MMO sub genres for the lazy thinking greedy mainstream Devs to bother with them.


But... No, they are not over. 


I, for one, welcome the return of the niche MMORPG made for the nerds. The AAA chase after the 'broad market' in an effort to justify spiraling development costs, part of which was the abhorrent F2P feeding frenzy that saw so many snouts in the trough, has brought very little good for me.

Originally posted by tryklon

Why would I do that? Theres no shortage of other games to play...


Oh, great... Another guy who's only requirement for a game is that it is free. This mindset is a plague on the genre.


Look, you clearly wanted to play GW2, so it's clear that you like it. Do you not think games that you like and enjoy are worth your money?

Do you not want to see more of the type of game that you enjoy being made? Because that only happens when you put your money into the market.



Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Originally posted by Vesavius

Despite a shitty loaded poll, 'real' wins.



Is 40% a win?

I think "proper MMO" is like the oldies station on the radio.  Maybe 40% of radio listeners prefer "music of the 60s, 70s, and 80s" to other radio stations.  That doesn't mean this kind of music is better or has any kind of a future.

Sounds like a 60% loss to me!


lol, maybe, but yeah... It's kind of how voting for stuff works. The biggest number wins :P

Plus, the poll is kind of shitty to start with, as mentioned.



No. No revenue model can revive the genre, only great games can.


B2P is just F2P with an entry cost to enter the mall... It's an overhyped flawed bandwagon mentality of a revenue model. as anti-gamer as F2P ever was. More so even.



Originally posted by the420kid
those days are over my friend.  Just be thankful they only sell cos... /snip


Nope, I won't be 'just thankful'.

We have seen what broad market compliance and acceptance of what the market wants us to want has done to MMORPGs over the years. 

No more.

Consumers shape this genre, not devs. Everyone needs to wake up and realise that. We just need to stop accepting the social engineering hype crap and paying for the cash shop rubbish that they are pushing.


Sooner the AAA devs, including 'Daybreak', leave the space the better. 

I agree.

'Cosmetics' were once a part of progression and achievement. Now they are sold as 'nothings'.

It's actually very much a kind of P2W, especially in a PvE game. 

My need as a PvEer has always been PLAY to achieve, including how my character looks, which is in itself very much part of the experience and development of my character's journey, not PAY to achieve.


The whole 'P2W' definition needs to be moved away from just the PvP arena. 


Despite a shitty loaded poll, 'real' wins.



B2P is just F2P with a charge to enter the mall.


People say charging for their client allows them to be 'less aggressive' in their cash shop, yet we see ANet selling things like gold and xp/ loot boosters.... Pretty aggressive to me.


No thanks. It confuses me why the model is so worshiped by so many... It's so arsed about face. But, people are going for it, so I guess they get what they deserve.

Originally posted by jonesing22
Originally posted by NorseGod

Looks like the facts are in the numbers. Someone read those numbers and make a call.

Maybe whoever buys the EQ IP will make a real EQ MMORPG this time.

Maybe Verant will buy it back :)


I am sure DBG own the name Verant now :(




Originally posted by Thebeasttt
I was crazy excited until i realized it's not using 3rd edition/pathfinder rulesets, so it's pretty much automatically garbage. It's a shame WotC crapped on all their fans long ago, forcing everyone with a brain to switch to Pathfinder or quit altogether due to their trashy WoWified D&D editions.



I sense someone hasn't played 5ed, which would be pretty much required I would think before giving an opinion here. 


See, there are plenty of people that will tell you that 3.0/ 3.5 (and, by extension, Pathfinder) are what are garbage... How they were D&D in name only and how they corrupted the 'soul' of the game by changing it's design philosophy into a tactical skirmish board game that was crushed under the weight of it's rules upon rules, destroying imagination for statistics. Many will tell you that WotC lost their way with the game at 3.0, and Pathfinder does nothing to fix that, in fact just making it worse and worse. Like pumping gas into an already bloated corpse.


So.. horses for courses I guess and opinions are like arseholes and all that. Probably best not declaring anything as 'automatic' or rock hard fact in things like this, eh?


I don't campaign 5ed, I prefer 2ed or BECMI or Castles & Crusades, but IMO it is the best version of D&D I have seen for years and people are flocking back to the game. WotC, I think, have really looked at indie games such as C&C that prospered so much in the bloated shadow of 3ed and relearned what made D&D so good for so many after the mmorpg inspired nonsense of 4ed.


So, yeah, 5ed will be a great choice for many and will do a lot to attract people to this title. I am really looking forward to it :)

I loved EQ and EQ2, I truly did, but it has been a long while since SOE was delivering what I wanted to see. I am not sure that the 'death' of them is a bad thing at this point from my perspective.

I have been getting my EQ fix in alternative place for a long time now, despite actually wanting to throw my money at the guys that actually own the game. That won't change in the near future I guess.

It is still kinda shocking to see it go down like this though.

Originally posted by bcbully

Everquest wasn't/isn't exactly blazing trails or leading the pack.

How big is that community exactly? 50k? 100k people?



EQ definitely blazed trails.

The 'community' in this case isn't just the folks playing it right now, it's every person that has played it and enjoyed it over the years. That's the core audience following this right now. So, yeah, millions I would would say actually.

My own view... Progressive is good, but progressive for the sake of it isn't. Any designer that throws out the baby with the bathwater for the sake of being different with an established title is an idiot.

I think most people's view that I have seen is that this could be a fun game, just not one that should be 'Everquest III'. I think that's a valid point of view.

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DMKano

So in the last 10 years there has not been a SINGLE "well designed" MMO?

Do you know how absolutely ridiculous that sounds?

How about you start and tell us what you consider to be a well designed MMORPG that has launched in the last decade?

Don't forget that we are talking specifically about retention (and community, at least I have been, because that is core to retention) here in this thread. What are the well designed MMORPGs in terms of those elements?

And please recognise that I said 'could be argued'. 

The vast  majority of AAA MMORPGs in the last 10 years are well designed games.

Not going to list them as we know which games those are.

 In terms of retention and community?

Please, list a few, because I want know your benchmark.

I updated my post - take Aion, Lotro, Rift, FF14AR and imagine them launching in 2000-2003 timeframe - they would all be hugely successful just as gen 1 MMOs were during that time in terms of retention and community.

Having 5-6 games to chose from compared to 100+ makes a huge ddifference.

It's not game design - it's an entirely different market 2015 and 2003 - night and day.


Ok, you are offering games such as Rift and Aion as your examples of well designed games in terms of retention and community?

ok... At least I know now where you are coming from.

I will just say that i consider your view on this to be flawed in the extreme and coming at it from wrong end entirely. Maybe you have been listening too much to those devs in the industry today that you apparently know so well and have spent too long in their echo chamber of bad received wisdom?

But, anyhow, it's late for me, so I will leave it there for now. Maybe we will talk sometime in the future about how community ifs enabled by design and how post WoW solo centric quest grinders such as Rift and FFXIV have killed the goose in this genre.


Originally posted by Bossalinie
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Vesavius

 You would have to be naive to think that, or just not bothered all that with being intellectually honest.

 A lot of people are completely out of touch with games development and design. How many posters here have even talked to an actual game Dev ever?


Who are you to assume that they haven't? Because you might have at some point? 

That's a pretty high pedestal that you're building yourself there DM.

Be careful of the fall.

I know there are game devs that lurk these forums - would be nice for some of them to chime in.


It might be, but, TBH, the current generation of MMORPG devs can eat dicks as far as I am concerned.

They pretty much all live in the same echo chamber of bad received wisdom, all validating each other's bad ideas.

They might be nice guys, because many I have met are, but the vast majority do not understand MMORPGs or how to make one that has real long term 'weight'.

They're probably smiling at this post and would tell you that you are more than welcome to have a go at it yourself. 


/shrug, why would I care what they say?

I judge them on their output, not what they 'would say'.

Didn't I make it clear that i don't value the perspective or opinion of the majority of the current crop of devs?

Or do i need to be a chef to know that the food that you are serving is shit?

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