Originally posted by Vanpry

I have always been pro-solo, not because I like to do things alone but because of the piss poor group design all mmo have had.

So your answer was to carry on playing MMORPGs, rather then specifically designed solo player games?

This is why we have ended up in this horrible mess of solo ez mode quest grinders.

Originally posted by Calintz333

Originally posted by Puuk

Originally posted by Calintz333

 you need to get at least to the half way point before you judge it.

 

Like me I HATE SWORD OF THE NEW WORLD it is the BIGGEST PEACE OF CRAP I EVER PLAYED. I would NEVER recommend it to anyone not even convicted criminals deserve to be put tru that torture. 

But I can say that And Judge it that way because I got to level Veteran (well over 250 hours of game play), which allowed me to do everything there is to do in that crappy horrible excuse for a screen saver. Need to build up a bit more time with a game before you say if its good or not.

 

It took you 250 hours to figure out this is a game you don't like? Seriously?

 

Actually no I figured it out since day one, but if i had ranted about it as a level 10 people could use the "Well you didn't give it a chance line" I am probably the only person in that entire game who HATES DISPISES AND DETESTS THAT HORRIBLE CRAP FEST that actually reached the End game and got some of the best equips available today in the second most powerful clan in my server. So yeah no one can say I didn't give it a VERY GOOD chance and now I am free to rant about it as many times as I damn well please and can back it up with experience.

wow.. you realise you only get one life right?

Why on earth didnt you just leave?

What are you so desperate to prove to who?

Originally posted by Elikal

Today kinda marks a breaking point for me. For all those many years I play MMORPGs I defended grouping, even enforced grouping, as a feature to enrich gameplay. Personally, I prefer to play in a group over soloing, and that hasnt changed and will not change. I loved the dynamics going with a group and I greatly valued the idea going to an old fashioned adventure with people. I come from a pen and paper background, a German game called "Das Schwarze Auge" (The Dark Eye, the same for which now the game "Drakensang" is made.) I came to MMOs to undertake adventures with people whose companies I enjoy. But saying so these days feels like reporting something of the Stone Age.

Facing the last two years of MMO experience and looking forward to SWTOR... I lost my faith in grouping. The reasons are many and personal, but some may be familiar to you.

It's not so much what some might expect, that too many play their class bad. To be honest, I never cared a lot.

What changed is, that these days, too many people play a MMORGP like it were some kind of professional competition. They play their MMO character with a quests printout and a pocket calculator for their skills. They count what trait gives how many points of X, what food to eat, what skills from the tree to select, what armor with what buff numbers to have for what boss mob. Its the entire way of thinking which dominates their playstyle which I loath, deeply and fundamentally hate.

When did games become like work? When did it stop to be a dream, something to be done for adventure and mystery? When did it all become the fastest way to have the most HP, Mana or the best gear? Its that attitude which so saddens me! Sickens me, even!

The final nail in the coffin for me was tonight, when I played LOTRO again. I returned, basically out of boredom and at least in LOTRO there is always something to do. I had a discussion with people there, and they seriously said stuff like "I dont take along tanks with compassion-trait instead of courage". What followed was a detailled - and certainly correct - mathematical analysis of the various virtues (traits) and what each trait and trait-level counted for, and which boss mobs he would take you along with and which not. You know, any MMO has an entire list of numbers, and thats fine with me. Food, traits, skill tress, gear, jewelry... the usual. But it was this line of thinking... it made me sick beyond the words I can describe it. I understand some people make a MMO as a kind of ego-performance. They need the best gear the highest numbers, and I respect others want to achieve that. But from the way most people responded, it became clear to me, that *I* was the dinosaur, the left over fossile, being just a guy who sought adventure. Sure, I add my traits when I can, I eat sometimes, but heck, I just wanted some nice human company on a simple adventure story!

It's not that I am totally opaque to any kind of numbers. Seriously. But this... I heard horror stories about all this from friends playing WOW in the last years, and its all this inspecting devilry. It just makes people greedy and envious, and people start to compare and measure each other. It was as if the genre had lost its innocence to me, when I didnt look at other players for their stats, but for the human character who played it. If THAT really would be the bottom line of MMO gaming, heck, then MMOs don't DESERVE group playing. If that would be where the train is headed, are we not much better with NPC groups? And in the long run, cant we let the entire MMO gerne just die? For what good is it for, if all we care about is NUMBERS and stats?

Do you chose your partner with such parameters? Your friends? Maybe such people should chose perfect matched robots instead of partners and loved ones? It really saddened and sickened me to see so many people think like that - and worse demand that from others to be viable to group with them! If that is how the average MMO player now functions I rather take my distance and say, bravo to SWTOR for companions and all soloablitiy. I always fought this trend as anti-social but I feel I lost this fight. Bravo to all those who work on the ruin of the wonders to experience an adventure with HUMANS, with friends! If all you seek is numbers, then thats all you are supposed to get.

To you who never had this dream, I can only say I feel sorry for you. For me, its kind of another lost dream, the dream people could come together just enjoying each other's company, but maybe such things are too much to ask in these times.

Well, sorry to see you leave the good fight Elikal.

I must say though, even in the earliest days of EQ, for instance, gear has always mattered, and the /inspect ability was always in full use, so I am a little confused as to why this has suddenly become an issue for you? Why does people lookin at gear and builds worry you so?

I think you are confusing two very different things, and then throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

Stats, gear, and builds have no impact on grouping, or the enjoyment of grouping imo. What appears to be upsetting you is the fact that people place value on these things, and this confuses me tbh... MMORPGs have always had this going on, at least the ones I have played, and now to declare grouping dead for you because of them seems a little strange to me.

In the earliest groups, I remember seeing tanks that wernt allowed to MT simply cause their gear wasnt up to it... Other tanks were chosen instead. Of course, in those days we didnt all have different builds in EQ, just different gear, but I guess this is the same thing. And I certainly remember players using print out maps and quest guides, probably even more so then now in this era of GPS led mini map quests, if we are honest.

Despite all this, we made friends, shared adventures, and explored worlds. Together. As a group. With humans. And I still, 9 or so years later, still talk to some of them on Yahoo.

The idea of a NPC group is horrible to me in a mmorpg, and is really the nail in the coffin of the genre. If they stick the idea into a single player RPG (ie Balders Gate) then great, but to remove the only thing, co-op play and community, by replacing them with computer players? Take away the very thing that makes these games special or worthwhile? Very sad.

I am sorry that this side of the genre has driven you to what I consider the dark side of mmorpg gaming, beloved only by solo ez mode quest grinders.

Originally posted by toddze

DF will pull a lot of casual PVP'ers at release then they will fade out just leaving the DF cult. You say DF is a more mature community. Thats laughable. I challenge anyone to go to DF boards and look at the posts. Or just look at your post and show me how that is a mature post. Clinging to every word tasos says like its the bible. Adventuine is stringing along its fanbase like a lost puppy dog. I would be shocked if DF is out in 08. I know it will release sometime, but not 08. Like I said I want DF to work out. If it will get that niche group out of  MMO's that they dont enjoy we all benifit. All that group does is just wine around about class balance. Some classes should be strong vs 1 class and weak vs another. A healer going toe to toe with a melee is laughable and is wrong.  Class balance is a nightmare of a task to truly acheive. IMO thats part of whats wrong with MMO's today. Companies are trying to strattle the line and get both the PvP crowd and PvE crowd. Pick a target audience and go for it. Thats another reason I am pulling for DF. It will make us both happy, you get you PvP w/o pve complainers and we can enjoy our PvE game w/o having to worry about each patch nerfing/buffing, instead they can work on the game.  

You know what Toddze...

give it a rest?

I get what you are saying about DF, I hope you are wrong but I DO get it, but hunting down every opportunity to say the same thing again and again just makes you look just as much a hatboi as others are fanbois...

This means you are just as bad and just as annoying to everyone else trying to have a proper discussion.

Originally posted by imbant

Originally posted by ursin

IF D3 is releasing before xmas i'll be scribbling out my vote for EQII and grinding one of those shnazzy new classes they are looking at to incorporate as future Hero Classes in WoW :P

 

I was about to ask about that.  As a huge Diablo fan, I have been quite the failure with keeping up with D3 info.  Last I heard it was only just announced.  Is it really possible for it to be out this year?

Ahh, don't rely on me for games release dates and whatnot lol...

I may well be very wrong, I don't track these things very closely lol

All I know is that I have been watching a stack of gameplay footage on D3 recently and it looked very polished, so I guess I just assumed :)

Originally posted by toddze

idk I may be alone but after playing MMO's, when I turn on a single player game now it just seems like somtheing is missing.

Yeah, I used to be like that when mmorpgs were actually social....

These days though?

Well.. if I'm gonna forced in mmorpgs to play solo quest grind or 100% instance, then a single player game is always gonna be far better, simply because it was designed to be just that from the bottom up. Plus I can tailor the difficulty to me, rather then playing a generic 'challenge' level that is designed to beeasy to pick up from the first second by ages 8-80.

Take out the social core and the mmorpg model actually makes very bad boring repetitive games.

Originally posted by joeyboots

Originally posted by originalegg

Originally posted by vesavius

Fable 2

Fallout 3

Sins of a Solar Empire

Gears of War 2

Soul Caliber IV

Defcon

Need For Speed Undercover

Farcry 2

Diablo 3

...which says a lot about what I think of the current offering of mmorpgs.

Makes me kinda sad actually.

While single player games have rarely been better then right now, both on my PC and 360, MMORPGs are, frankly, just rubbish now.

Lowest learning curve (for the largest customer base) ez mode anti-social solo quest grinders with mindless zerg PvP? No thanks.

 

 

ive been slacking on my single player knowledge lately.

are all those games you listed currently aiming for a holiday season release?

(or already released)

Some are already released, and some are releasing before the end of the year.
 

Most are out now, a couple have been out a while :)

With the sheer volume of high quality single player games out right now it's gonna take me a while to give them all the love they deserve... at the very least the next few weeks... and theres some games that you just always seem to come back to right?

Which reminds me, I really shoulda put Civ 4 on that list as well...

Really, who has time for mmorpgs when they have so blatantly gone so far downhill and so drastically lost the plot, alongside any idea of what made the genre so good in the first place?

Fable 2

Fallout 3

Sins of a Solar Empire

Gears of War 2

Soul Caliber IV

Defcon

Need For Speed Undercover

Farcry 2

Diablo 3

...which says a lot about what I think of the current offering of mmorpgs.

Makes me kinda sad actually.

While single player games have rarely been better then right now, both on my PC and 360, MMORPGs are, frankly, just rubbish now.

Lowest learning curve (for the largest customer base) ez mode anti-social solo quest grinders with mindless zerg PvP? No thanks.

Originally posted by metalhead980

I don't hate instances actually I think people that say loading screens and instances ruin immersion are nuts.

hehe yeah agree on this.

I mean, how fragile is your willing suspension of disbelief if a loading screen breaks your 'immersion'?

Like I say above, an instance should improve immersion if used right, not ruin it.

The truth is, I think, that like most game systems, instances can be used in the wrong way.

GW is a great example of this when I played it, as was DDO. Games like EQ2 and WoW use a nice mix of open and closed dungeons and areas. Contested and uncontested nameds. In the main they get it right.

I do get what a previous poster said about it allowing the 're-run' mentallity though, and the removal of time enforced challenge. I think having meaningful death penalites is equally at the root of this though. Having a time limit on a challenging instance, coupled with a death penality that hurts, would fix this for me and make a compelling game that would take planning and skill to beat.

In my view, AoC didnt fail because of instances, despite the fact that many (of the usual vocal minority that posts about such things) cried about such. AoC actually has quite a large set of open world hubs that players could adventure together if they wanted to. The shame in this game though is that noone needed to, but that cause the game is a solo quest grinder with no social backbone whatsoever. That was it's problem, not it's instances.

Personally, I love open world content. I love contested mobs, and I love the need for organisation and social interaction a open world brings. I love the race to bag it when a rare one pops. Saying this though, I have no problems at all with a number of 'event' instances, and the odd closed dungeon, in mmorpgs.

I personally don't get the 'immersion' argument... it's a strange one to me... instances are just as 'immersive' as open world in my view, if not more so as they can be more strongly story based and reactive to player actions within that story.

The only reason I personally think that instances damage games if overused is the fact they destroy community by sending people off solo or in small groups into what amount to mini games off a central tiny shared hub.

Are instances, in themselves, evil game breakers?

Nah.

Originally posted by daarco

Im a RPer and im very eager to play TCoS. A good character cusomization and a non item based gameplay is a RPers dream MMO.

There are 'items' in this game, they are called sigils. You will be required to quest and win sigils as you would gear in other games in order to use them to imporve your character. They serve the same purpose as gear  in terms of game design, albeit 'low powered' gear. Low powered or not though, you WILL need them to compete with the other players out there, so you WILL be questing etc to get them.

I don't know why people are struggling with this tbh.

Originally posted by AlienShirt

They need less politics in all forms of entertainment....including TV and radio.

This is why and how the neocons are taking over and pushing their agenda forward so fast. This is how your water in the US is so flouridated. This is how the internet is being shut down. This is how a corrupt and self serving banking system can exploit you so horribly. This is how you eat, breath, and drink poison crap on a daily basis (aspartame?). This is how ridiculous taxes are imposed on the poor while the rich pay nothing. This is how the children are educated into idiots. This is how you are used, abused, and exploited throughout your life to serve the agenda of the elite. Stupified and ignorant.

Still, as long as you see the latest in Paris Hilton porn right?

I despair, honestly.

The people of this world get the world they deserve.

Originally posted by Gemma

I thought Huxley was a goofy name, but this name isn't even goofy, its just plain dumb.  APB makes no sense at all and my first thought was that it was a forum game or something.  What were they thinking?

I think the only goofy thing aout the name Huxley is that the dev's actually thought that most people would get it as a reference.

Google it, buy it, and read a book, it will help you out in soooo many ways.

Originally posted by tazarconan

After 30-35 replies NONE answered the most simple question which this post is all about!!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT in the nine hells would happen if the devs would add loot items with SMALL bonuses NOT big

but SMALL bonuses on items armours weapons e.t.c.

WHAT! the combat system which i find good and refreshing will still be the same...

The fate of the combat will still be depend on the player skills and tactics and not in THE LOOT ,cause

the bonus stats would be SMALL!!!!!!!!!!

Its a very simple question and the answers i get in this post is like:

This game has no loot ! get over it!

This game isnt for you!

Loot whining!

Im starting to wonder is it just the COS community IQ level so LOW or it s a disease spreading tommo rpg players?

 

You have actually been answered, if you relaxed long enough to take a look.
 

There is loot. Sigils are loot.

They will have an effect on your character's combat abilities, albeit a small one (apperently...)

What's the confusion?

What is 'tommo rpg players'? It sounds horrible... is it very easy to catch?

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Not really our choice to make.

every choice is your choice to make.

Originally posted by Leoj

What is going to motivate people beyond loot remains to be seen, but I don't think this game will be as solo quest grind as you think.  Perhaps it will be a quest grind, but I think the devs are trying to make a game where grouping is important and I think that is where the community will come from. 

Also you may be right vesavius, at first there may not be much of a "carrot on a stick" for this game, but there are many awesome ideas that they have mentioned that they want to implement. Hopefully these things don't take them too long, because they could lose a lot of people before the game really flourishes...but I think enough will stick around for it.

Personally I can go without a "motivator", in my opinion it stiffles game play and to me "motivator" sounds like it's something I need to do rather than want to do. 

If the group/ community thing happens, noone will be happier then me. I have been looking for a game where co-op play and community interaction is important and rewarded for a long long time.

But I will also say that the best motivators are the ones you don't even know are motivating you. They tap in to what you enjoy and use that to keep you playing and paying a sub. I would even go as far to say most people leave a game when they become aware of them. The whole point of any given motivator, whether it be loot, experience, story progression, or whatever, is that you want to do it. I

TCoS has a relitively small dev team though... we have gotta be looking at 4-6 months before they get additional content in? At least?

This is why they need retainers past chess ;)

Originally posted by daylight01

Ok mate you have made your point and maybe this game isnt for you,vesavius I would suggest instead of wasting your time downing a game you look for 1 you will enjoy,your time will be better spent there,I hate to be blunt but you really have nothing to say postive about this game so why are you here,you dont need to answer just leave well enough alone

/sigh...

I am not 'downing' the game.

I am looking for honest and open discussion... That is what forums are for right? To talk about games?

I have not trolled anywhere here, so whats the prob? You really have no time for people unless they pass your 'positivity' test?

Originally posted by daylight01

That is basically what myself and Zhauric are saying,there are many levels to this game for which ppl will find fun.

I used to do raiding and even back then when I enjoyed it there were times I went not because I wanted too but maybe because the guild was short a healer or even times I just wanted to go incase the item dropped that I wanted...so glad I have left those days behind.

Noone has, like I said, talked about raiding here.

Lets not muddy the water?

there are a few things to drive you in TCoS as I already said I may even log on just to have a game of chess with a guild m8

Well, I can play chess for free online with my friends without a monthly fee...

This is a retainer for TCoS?

Ouch. 

and a chat,

I can also chat for free....

or if I am in the mode go for some pvp,

yep, I get this one.

or indeed do a dungeon or go searching for a sigil,

you mean quest for phat lootz? :P

there are no raids here so a guild wont be asking for new members only if they can attend 4 raids a week etc.

Lets plz stop talking about raids... I have never even mentioned them... No idea why you guys keep suggesting I have...

I have followed this game for a long time and for the most part supported the devs and if this game fails(which I dont think for 1 sec it will) at least they have tried to make a game that is not the normal thing we see now and have tried to make something for players were that epic loot isnt the only thing to play for.

I support indie devs and diversity, and for that reason I will buy TCoS, but lets not get tunnel vision here.

At this time, to me, TCoS looks like it hase a interesting combat system, nice looks, and a good take on character appearence customisation.

Apart from that it is looking like a solo zerg theme park quest grinder...

Lets not hail it as the second coming, because you will only create an expectation that it can never live up to, and as such will be seen as a failiure...

Lets be objective and realistic about the game? It really is the best way to avoid a post launch backlash.

 

Originally posted by Leoj

But you guys are saying that people won't be motivated by loot.  I think like the last poster said that you can find whatever you want to motivate you.  Loot can easily be a motivater in this game, getting the best sigils is only going to help you so why not go for them.  Or perhaps you just want the coolest looking armor that is really difficult to get.  There are many motivators in this game and I think that is where it is going to shine as opposed to games like WoW where loot is everything.

I have only asked the other guys what is gonna motivate them in the long term if not loot, beyond the vague word 'fun'.

I am asking straight questions, but it seems noone wants to give me a straight answer :P

Originally posted by Zhauric

I'm pretty much on the track daylight is stating. I don't need loot to be my motivator to play. Fun is the number one factor.

But fun is subjective right?

It's not enough to say 'fun' really... You need to define what you, personally, find fun. It's too broader term otherwise for me to discuss it with you.

Will the lore motivate you?

Will the PvE quests, despute the fact that they will deliver no reward worthwhile apart from experience?  

I am not looking for an argument, just interested.

If I wanted loot to be the motivator then I would go back to WoW where that is gospel. I'm tired and worn on that train of thought and gaming process.

Noone is saying they want loot to be a motivator here.

I am saying that sigils are just 'gearz' loot by a different name, and to suggest otherwise is a little naive.

What I am seeking is something different within the combat system. TCoS apparently has that.

A different combat system just isnt anough on it's own to retain a substantial player base though?

You need more. You need motivators and retainers.

A strong community/atmosphere

 Well, seeing as this game is solo quest grind, and the crafting is solo ez mode, I am not sure where that strong community is gonna come from for you...

The last few games we have seen based on this model have had terrible or non existant communities (AoC and WAR anyone?)

and a game where I can enjoy both pve and pvp whenever I seek it. So far TCoS covers those except I have no clue on the community at this point of time. But loot is no where near my motivator.

Then I ask, in all honesty, what is?

I am not saying loot is everything for me, but what is gonna keep you playing this game past the free zone? Once you have had a little fun and enough of the combat system alone?

So saying 'What will motivate players to play?' is not something that truly be questioned on a broad basis. Its up to individuals to see what motivates them and what will make them want to play a game.

 No, I disagree here.

Motivators and retainers are system design choices and are built into every game from day 1. This is basic stuff for a theme park MMO. It's not like this is a sandbox game or anything...

It's a solo zerg theme park quest grinder...

Trust me when I say that motivators and retainers are everything to it's sustainability.

I'm quite sure the devs of TCoS did their research and discovered there is a player base that is not motivated by loot.

Hehe excuse me, but I honestly don't have the same belief in any dev's 'research' anymore, considering how wrong the last few games have gone. And all of them with much deeper pockets then TCoS. 

That wants something different and not the same ol' same ol'. I'm one of those players and look forward to not having to hear:

'We're raiding! Come get phat lewts!'

I am not, and have never, talked about raiding here.

This isnt about that.

I have only stated that sigils are loot. Which I repeat.

I am not arguing for loot in any game, or suggesting there isnt another way to do things, just that TCoS hasnt found it at all. It's just rebranded the problem and pushed it out as a different name.