wow there are some shallow minded people in this thread....first off, the mature rating isn't going to stop kids from playing so you might as well forget about that.

second, as far as online gaming is concerned age has very little to do with the level of maturity someone has, i have known adults older than me to act like they were pre-teen.

at the same time i have known kids well under the age of 17 to act really mature and be great players and friends.

and if you ask me, i would rather play with a kid that acts mature than a adult that acts like some sort of "elitist" that hates kids and attacks them in game or refuses to group/guild with them simply because they are underage.

at least let a person have a chance to prove their worth without shooting them down simply because they are under 17, that is unwise and ironically immature in itself IMHO.

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Originally posted by Salvatoris

I don't see a lot of threads attacking vanguard fans. I see threads attacking the game, or the devs.. or sony. Those posts are responded to with all the 'go play WoW' and get a life comments. People posting negative things aren't doing it because they hate YOU for liking the game. They are trying to tell other people what they think of the game.. and I think they have that right.. I understand the desire to warn people about SOE. I don't understand why so many people here respond to criticism of the game with personal attacks.

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yeah telling us what they think of the game is fine by me, i am not speaking for everyone. but if you honestly think that only random people are coming in here to give their negative opinion and the fans are jumping down their throat, then i don't know what els to say.

there are sooooo many people on this forum that only come here to bash vanguard fans and the community or just start shit in some other way that they know will get people fired up, i could make a thread that is 10 pages long just quoting all the trolls that come here.

if people simply said they didn't like the game for whatever reason without insulting or bashing people or a group of people, i would be fine with that.

but that just isn't the case, there are indeed some people that love attention and so they come here and demand it by making threads and or posts with the sole intent of getting under people's skin, then bashing them more after they get backlash response they were looking for.

again, most people fans or haters are not like this....unfortunatly the most vocal are usually the worst trolls, at least on this forum.

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Originally posted by vendris

Thanks for the information.  Situational equipment that is the best for some situations and not others is a good thing.

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no problem, i think the hard part will be is how to make raiding worth it for the raiders. and the gear you get from a raid should (in my opinion) be mainly focused on getting your guild ready for the next raid encounter.

meaning, if your next raid encounter was a boss mob that had a deadly fire aoe or fire based attacks.... then hopefully the encounter before that drops alot of fire resist gear, for example.

so basically the stuff that drops in raids is the best situational gear for raids but at the same time not superior to all other loot that drops in the world.

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Originally posted by vendris

So you're saying that you think they'll make gear that is harder to get (raid gear) worse than or equal to gear you can get from small group encounters?

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no i am not saying anything, I'm going by what brad has said. and he has said the gear will be different but not better, i will try and dig the post up for ya.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainabile via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).

Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:

1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone

2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone

3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).

4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate

5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonar may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere.

Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable. http://silkyvenom.com/pages/devtracker/index.php?go=posts&get=dev&fromsite=1&id=7&p=39

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Originally posted by Pantastic
They've made very clear that if you don't raid, your gear will be worse than that of someome who does raid.

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wrong, they have not made it clear that all other gear will be worse than raid gear. i have been reading your posts for a long time and on my other account i have had discussions with you about this.

your argument is because your not able to get every single piece of gear ever made in the entire game that somehow that makes you "second class" or "worse" than a player that does because they raid.

am i right? even though what has been clearly said is that gear from small grouping will be just as good (meaning the quality is the same) as raid gear.

it has never been said that raid gear is a better quality than all other gear (ala eq1, eq2, wow) just that you can get different gear from raiding that you can from grouping, not necessarily "better"

yeah if you think that makes you weaker, because you don't have every single piece of gear imaginable that is fine.

but that statement i quoted by you is false and misleading, it doesn't make your gear "worse" if you don't raid.

from the sounds of it, the people that have older computers might start getting invited to beta3 witch is a good sign for me.

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Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by Kyoruto
Originally posted by jonakuhonestly, vanbois r retarded. really. true story.
Thats what people are talking about. You just say vanbois and *insert random insult*. I bet you if you actually made a good agruement then you'd be a better responce. There is no reason to just hate for bassically no good reason then just to hate.
More spefically... The rabid Vanguard fans are very rude in response to anything negative that is posted about the game. This is evident in this thread on several occasions. If someone criticizes any aspect of the game, those criticisms are met with "go play WoW noob" or the poster is called a troll, or accused of having no life, and devoting the entirety of their waking hours to trashing this game. It's moronic and juvenile to automatically fire off insults any time someone has an issue with the game, or the developers... or the publisher for that matter.

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having a negative opinion about a game is one thing....but to come here every single day and make thread after thread or post after post insulting vanguard fans calling them "idiots" "vanboi's" or just purposely trying to start arguments is indeed trolling.

if i was to make post after post about how everyone that didn't like vanguard was an idiot or anyone that didn't agree with me was [insert random insult here], would i be trolling?

hell yes i would, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that alot of people come here just to start shit with vanguard fans, and then when they get a negative response they bash them even more and say what a shit community vanguard will be.

not saying the fans don't ever troll, because they do......but alot of people just get sick of the same people coming here for no reason other than to just start shit.

again, not everyone that talks negative about vanguard is here to troll, but you can defiantly pinpoint the ones that are here to just start shit.

this is sooo funny, jonaku...what are you trying to prove with this thread? everyone knows that the foh forums are infested with wow fans that love to bash nearly all other games.

and its all the same idiots doing the bashing to, honestly the FOH forums are a steaming POS....all i read is a bunch of whining idiots spitting profanities and insults at each other to get their point across.

if the FOH forums is what you consider a "good community" that sure explains alot.

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Originally posted by jonaku

Originally posted by Salvatoris
Originally posted by anarchyart
Originally posted by jonaku
Originally posted by Kyoruto I personally hope they get banned that way people with reasonable oppinions other then "this game sucks so hard cause its not tailored to me" will be heard. Cause I really wanna know and hear the objective oppinions of those that played the game.
you're why the vanguard community is so hated. everytime anyone posts any criticism of the game on the vanguard forums, they're told they should go play wow and then they start asking the mods to ban/delete/lock the offending post. no wonder everyone hates them !
You should go play WoW.
The irony is killing me.
honestly, vanbois r retarded. really. true story.

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honestly, nerds that spend all their free time hating on a game they will never play r retarded. really. true story.

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Originally posted by n2sooners
What is more sad? Being the fan of a game and hoping it succeeeds? Or living just to bash a game and hoping it fails. You kinda have to take pity on those who live life with no hope and such a negative outlook on life that they have nothing better to do than go from board to board bashing a game they have no intentions of playing and hoping for it to fail. What sad little people you must be in real life.

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exactly, its truly pathetic.

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Originally posted by WoodenDummy

Originally posted by baphamet

good luck with that, and troll more.

His post was better.

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thanks for the insight

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Originally posted by jonaku

Originally posted by baphamet
there are plenty of other games out there that will be far greater for a true casual gamer than vanguard, go play one of those.

like 99% of the vanbois at the vanguard forum, you have resorted to the tired old line "i think you would enjoy a game like WOW more."
oh, that reminds me, that's the other reason why i don't like vanguard: the community of vanbois is so repulsive in their elitist sadomasochistic zealous adoration of the vision(tm) that i find it sickening. any game that attracts such a horrid community of people is just bad, bad, bad and must be destroyed or overhauled at any cost.
and when the game launches to a disappointing 150 K subscribers, well below that targeted 500 k subscribers, i will el oh el as the fit hits the shan internally at vanguard when they will have to do an $0e nge revamp of the game.
u vanbois so mindlessly defend the game it's hilarious.

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I'm sorry you don't agree that a game that is more casually friendly would be better for a casual gamer than vanguard, I'm sorry that you feel every single game must be catered just for you "the casual gamer".

I'm sorry you feel so threatened by people that are exited by a game you are not, kind of like the red headed step child thats jealous of her sister for being happy while she is miserable.

you haters so mindlessly bash a game you will never play and spend all of your time doing so its not only hilarious, its pathetic.

for your sake i hope you do go get a hobby or find a game you do like and enjoy, instead of making a living off of spreading negativity about a game you will never play.

and keep on making flame bait threads about your predictions, no matter how much hate and negativity you spread people will still try the game for themselves and decide weather they will like it or not.

no amount of trolling or negativity about vanguard will change that, but have fun trying!

weather you want to believe it or not, jonaku there are people that want to play a game like vanguard. if you think that everyone is just happy with games like wow you better think again.

yeah theres alot of casual gamers, but does that mean all the people that play more than casual no longer exist? do you really think that all the vanguard fans are actually casual gamers that have been "fooled" by sigil?

there are still alot of people that want a game like this, obviously by vanguards huge fanbase, and i don't think people need a troll hero telling them what to like or dislike, anyone with half a brain can figure out what type of mmorpg vanguard will be.

and if you are a true casual gamer and still want to play vanguard, knowing how casual unfriendly it will be then later complain about it that is your problem.

there are plenty of other games out there that will be far greater for a true casual gamer than vanguard, go play one of those.

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Originally posted by jonaku

Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by jonakuOriginally posted by finnmacool1 Well i think the latest release estimate is jan-mar 07. That should give them time to fix/enhance the game to an "entertaining" state. I think alot depends on how far they are willing to tweak all the major mechanics because they do need major tweaks.the problem is that the "vision(tm)" is inherently unfun so no amount of tweaking will help unless the "vision(tm)" is altered which will not happen.

actually "the problem is" you seem to think your opinion is the only opinion that matters,
i don't think my opinion is the only one that matters. i think my opinon matters and i think ur opinion matters. unfortunately, u don't think my opinion matters. hypocrite.

 you seem to think "the vision" is unfun while so many others tend to disagree,
so many others thought EQ2 would kill WOW, that WOW would fail, that Guild Wars would kill WOW, that DNL would have a great launch.  what "so many others" think has no bearing on my ability to critically reason and form my own "contrarian" opinion. and that assumes that "so many others" think you propose. IMHO, "so many others" think vanguard is gonna be a dud.
"the vision" was pretty successful in eq
only because eq had no real competition. today's MMO market is very competitive. and the market has CHANGED. brad still thinks the MMO market consists of powergamers playing 8 hours a day. it. does. not.
and i will decide if it is unfun or not when vanguard is a finished product.
and i too will decide if it is unfun or not when vanguard is a finished product. and before it's a finished product. i have that right.
the question is, if you are so convinced its going to fail so miserably why on earth do you spend so much time "trying" to convince others to believe it to? why do you care? just curious.
i don't want others to be mislead by brad's deceptive statements that vanguard welcomes "core gamers" when in fact, the term "core gamers" is a fabrication and that casuals and medium level players will have an awful time.

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lol i am a hypocrite? go ahead and try and quote me where i am pretending my opinion is fact. like you have done on multiple occasions.

go ahead and try and find a post of mine where i purposely try and start a flame war, like you have on multiple occasions.

good luck with that, and troll more.

this thread needs to be locked and deleted, this is obviously just meant as flame bait....to bad the mods probably don't care as usual.

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Originally posted by jonaku

Originally posted by finnmacool1 Well i think the latest release estimate is jan-mar 07. That should give them time to fix/enhance the game to an "entertaining" state. I think alot depends on how far they are willing to tweak all the major mechanics because they do need major tweaks.
the problem is that the "vision(tm)" is inherently unfun so no amount of tweaking will help unless the "vision(tm)" is altered which will not happen.

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actually "the problem is" you seem to think your opinion is the only opinion that matters, you seem to think "the vision" is unfun while so many others tend to disagree, "the vision" was pretty successful in eq and i will decide if it is unfun or not when vanguard is a finished product.

the question is, if you are so convinced its going to fail so miserably why on earth do you spend so much time "trying" to convince others to believe it to? why do you care? just curious.

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Originally posted by n2sooners

Originally posted by KyorutoI don't even know much about the game. (I'm waiting for WAR) and these haters are really getting annoying. I was curious about this game, but now I can't even get any information because of those idiots.

I keep telling everyone that these boards have taken a serious turn for the worse. I think it really started back before WoW and EQ2 when all the WoW vs EQ2 posts were being made and has just steadily gotten worse. Probably has to do with the popularity of the site. Unfortunately, along with the web site fame comes the web forum trolls.

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i agree but also think the mods need to take alot of the blame for it as well.

yeah vanguard gets alot of attention indeed, and there is alot of people that love to hate on it. but i don't think that necessarily means it will be a huge hit or anything like that.

but i think that there is good reason why vanguard gets so much attention, and its not because everyone hates it otherwise nobody would care.

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Originally posted by vendris

Some people like to make vague insulting statements about some people instead of actually having a conversation directly with people they disagree with, because it's easier to grandstand and showboat than to have an honest discussion with someone who disagrees with them.So, who are these "some people" who are trying to "discourage people from liking a game that rivals their favorite game", and what are the games these "some people" are so worried about protecting from the juggernaut that is the mighty Vanguard: Saga of Heroes?Here's my personal take on Vanguard, from what I know of the game so far: if the game is "sound" (the engine works well, the game plays well, it feels "right", all that good stuff) then it will be paradise for people who miss the days of pre-instance Everquest, when the biggest and most well organized guilds could control the resources in the game world and dictate who was allowed to do what when.  If that's your gig, more power to you, and I hope you enjoy your game.On the flip side, I think all of the statements that Vanguard is somehow going to be like Everquest, yet solve all the problems associated with that style of game, without resorting to mechanics like instancing that clearly do solve those problems (yet admitedly introduce new, different problems) will be proven to false, and that anyone interested in casual play, small group play, solo play, etc, who ends up trying Vanguard will leave it very quickly for games that fit that style of play better.  Because of this, I think Vanguard's subscription numbers will always be low, and in the new post-WoW era, it will not be a "hit".  That's ok though, games such as EVE have shown that a small company can survive and even flourish without "WoW" level subscription numbers.  Hopefully SOE won't step in and drastrically revamp the game and pull the rug out from under Sigil when the numbers are low.If you disagree, fine.  People disagree with each other about all sorts of things.  Personally, I enjoy the discussion and the sharing of ideas.  However, "some people" seem to get all bent out of shape when the product they've chosen to self identify with comes under criticism.  Usually the strongest reactions come from people who want to be loyal to the product but are harboring their own doubts about it.

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i cant say that i disagree with most of what you wrote except that i think you may be underestimating vanguards fan base and potential.

sure alot of people don't like the tedium that eq had and that vanguard may end up having but there is alot of people that like that style of game play,.

i predict vanguard having 200-300k at launch and depending how soothe it goes it could rise or fall from there, hopefully rise though...hopefully to 400k or more but i know alot of people would disagree with me.

oops i meant to quote venge on that last post, my bad.