Originally posted by Torak

 

Originally posted by Paragus1 
  I remember AC1 had some amazing dungeons that required jumping on platforms, acid pits, locked doors, and I remember Olthoi nests with tunnels fanning out everywhere.  I mean don't get me wrong,  I understand that there has to be a top and a bottom with the dungeons boss, but can devs please stop making it a straight line in between?   Help us get lost in dungeons again considering it usually ends up being the place where a good portion of our time is spent.

/rant off

AC had some of the BEST MMO dungeons I ever played. Some of them where linear but many of them were nightmares to figure out. Anything released that I have tried in the past 3 or so years just doesn't have any of the challenge or creativity behind it. I remember getting so pissed off because I missed a turn or went the wrong way....Dungeons now a days might look better but I have yet to have to jump over an acid pit or swing across something, damn locked gates, mazes, puzzles, frickin riddles......or have "rolling balls of Doom" to get past! There are so many dungeons and quest in AC, I don't think anyone has done it all.

I would love to see an updated version of the original AC. I'm there baby, ready and waiting. These were the damn good old days lol. To bad no one plays this anymore

LOL, dude I used to love that stuff.  One of my favorite and most memorable dungeon experiences was the fletching tool dungeon.   You had to have the group split into 2 teams, into 2 different paths.   Each path had to pull levers to open doors for the other team and vise versa.   If either of the teamks got wiped out you had to abort the entire mission.   Then right near the end, there was a giant acid pit that everyone had to jump over.  If your jump skill wasnt high enough you were treating a hot searing death, no rezzes, just a ticket back to town instantly   The first time I tried it I think all but 2 guys made the jump and I sure as hell wasn;t one of them.   I remember the Atlan Fire stone, getting to the dungeon was half the fun.  Inside was a series of tomb raider type jumping puzzles over a pit full of level 100+ fire elementals.  The newer games just don't make dungeon experiences that capture you like this.

Originally posted by WARCRYtm

EQ2 is at second place in main page(atm), many hipe on this forums and others (Fires of Heaven) about new expansion.

Many posts about people coming back to EQ2, i miself feel tented to try it again.

At the moment it have the same votes EVE have in this tred.

I think that game will be hard pressed to surpass the popularity of EVE on this particular site for 2 reasons.   The EVE fanbase is extremely strong here, and the seocnd reason is people hate SOE here (Justly So).   I still hate them and Im' playing the game.   Took some of my guildmates to Nagafan , their most popular PvP server.  So far its been a lot of fun and if you played WoW's PvP you'll find it refreshing to find that its all overworld PvP.  If you try it look me, we play Qeynos which is the underdog on that server.   It hurts me deeply to give SoE credit for anything, but the expansion has really added a lot to the game in terms of content, land mass, and character advancement.  They hadded a second page of talent trees so now you can have up to 100 talent points to spend between 2 pages of skills (50 per page).  You have a seperate exp bar to earn talent points, and you earn exp in it by killing named mobs, exploring new areas, and completing quests.  All in all its a solid game now, but like many other games it justifiably is trying to overcome the negative stigma of its horrid launch, which I suspect will be what happens to Vanguard.

In WoW for example a LOT of work goes into the placement of every enemy, the amount of room you to execute a strategy to deal with them. In EQ, the graphical demand for a dungeon was no where near that of today. back then models were MUCH faster to make, encounters were not really that complicated at all. Now people demand scripted encounters, new and nice graphics. Its a labour intensive process that takes months to do.  People want Content, and if they took the time to spread the dungeon out and make it all non-linear it might take a few extra months. Id be willing to bet most people dont want to wait all that extra time to make dungeons less linear.  Game companies like Blizzard know this, they arent stupid. They cater to what the majority of people want. Thats nice graphics, scripted challanging encounters, with pretty and powerful rewards.

Keep in mind there is a reason developers and designers do the things they do. They have to get some done in a limited time, with limited resources. You have to prioritize. They dont just decide by rolling a die, its a hard process.

I understand where you are coming from, but there have been games since EQ1 that have successfully had non-linear dungeon design.  EQ2 has some pretty good dungeon.   Have you see some of the dungeon maps for FFXI?  Some of those places are simply staggering in their scope.  DAOC's Darkness Falls was a great design with multiple entrences and exits and lots of interconnected tunnels.

I don't think I would agree with you on the scripted encounter thing.   Scripted encounter susually have to be instanced, and instancing in my opinion opens up a whole differnent slew of problems, but we'll save that for another thread.  I don't think it would take that much longer to make a dungeon have a few more ways to go, and Im sure raiders will always appreciate having a choice on selecting which targets they would like to persue instead of having to walk the same line everytime and be forced to waste time on less desirable targets.

Maybe I am old school and like the old Wizardry type dungeons.   I liked the old Phantasy Star games :)  Is it a bad thing to want dungeons like old school D&D?   Thats the root of all these games, and lately it seems the further away we go, the more stupified the genre gets.

First poll I say EQ2.   The game was terrible when it came out, now it is by far the most solid MMO on the market.  It has WoW trumped in every possible catagory, altrhough since it had a bad launch, most of the WoW players will never try it to realize it.  The PvP server it has it light years better then WoW PvP servers because all EQ2 PvP is overworld PvP.  Not to mention that they have been cranking out expansions, which have made the game dramatically better by adding new aspects to the gameplay, something I don't think WoW has been able to do after 2 years for the first expansion pack.  I'll give FFXI, AO, and DAOC honorable mention though.  AO provides the most in depth character developement of any game to date and has the best customer service.   FFXI is a rock solid PvE game that has also been given a lot of love through expansions.   DAOC will always have a spot in my heart for the fun I had playing on Andred and Mordred, and Mythics PvP system to date is some of the best the genre has seen.

/rant on

How come nobody ever brings this up when we talk about MMOs?  In light of Vanguard getting its harsh criticism, it seems it may have gone the way of World Of Warcraft in its dungeon design.  Linear dungeons in my view are totally lame and a major turn off.  I'm not making this thread to bash WoW, but I'm going to use it as an example.  How many of the dungeons in this game are pretty much a stright line with no other variations?  Shadowfang, Scarlet Monestary, Wailing Caverns, LBRS, UBRS, MC, BWL, Van Cleef etc. all seem to be designed by a guy who must live in a hallway somewhere.  Members of my guild have been playing the Vanguard beta and have been telling me that every dungeon they have visited has followed this same format.

Maybe I'm just an old timer, but what ever happened to dungeons like Guk that were sprawling complexes of elaborate tunnels, ledges, ladders, and catwalks going every which way?  However strongly you feel for the rest of the game, I think its about time we start shining a light on this aspect of games in this genre.   FFXI, whether you love it or hate it, has some serious dungeons, many of which are upwards of 6-9 floors with multiple ways up and down and multiple entrences.   Even EQ2 newbie dungeon Stormhold has paths going all over the place.   I think it adds a lot to the immersion factor of going into a place to explore.  It just annoys me to see hyped games and "Next gen" garbage have their dungeons as a straight path with a few side rooms with a boss every 50 feet or so.  I remember AC1 had some amazing dungeons that required jumping on platforms, acid pits, locked doors, and I remember Olthoi nests with tunnels fanning out everywhere.  I mean don't get me wrong,  I understand that there has to be a top and a bottom with the dungeons boss, but can devs please stop making it a straight line in between?   Help us get lost in dungeons again considering it usually ends up being the place where a good portion of our time is spent.

/rant off

How can you forget Asheron's Call 1.  The ultimate is stat and skill management.  A game that to this day is still years ahead of the its time and the genre.  Seemless overworld, skill based system, PvP, a staggering amount of content, in game events, overworld player housing etc.   It's a shame because this game seldom gets the credit it deserves.  it was rediculed in its time because of its graphics compared to its competitors, but to this day, still has all features everyone has been yearning for.  It boggles me why developers haven't taken a better look at this game for inspiration.  If AC1 had better graphics it would be able to holds its own against todays crop of cookie cutter MMOs IMO.

As someone who has been playing these games for a very long time, I have to agree with the OP.  I can hear the Blizzard fanbois stampede coming as I type this, but yes, WoW is not a challenging MMO.   I played that game from release to about 18 months in.  I led 2 end game raiding guilds, on 2 servers, so I speak as a guild leader and raid leader.   The challenge of WoW only comes from super retardedly gimmicky boss encounters that have you hopping on your left foot, while spinning counter clockwise, on the thrid tile from the left, while singing the national anthem.   They are just absolutely silly.  The other part of the challenge comes from making 40 monkeys jump through the same burning hoop every few days.   Thats all there is too it, the rest is rinsing and repeating until the "random" loot generator spits out what you want.

After I quit WoW, I moved onto some other games.   I finally had remembered why I started playing these games in the first place.  The challenge defines the fun to me.   Why play a game where everyone, including a monkey, can achieve a top tier, top equipped character?   The accomplishment is completely ruined by the fact that everyone and their mom can attain such things.  Hell, we used to have 1/3 to a half of the raids able to go AFK  while crawling through their super linear dungeons and still win quite handily.

WoW is a polished game, if you are new the genre it a good starter game.   But bragging about your skills in that game is the same exact thing as a 1st grader bragging about learning his ABCs and calling you a n00b.  The risk defines the reward, and the challenge defines the achievement.  Challenge doesnt need to be a giant monotonous time sink, nor does it need to be linear dungeons with bosses who have 26 gimmicks each.  Sadly people like this road and will die for this game because its either their first MMO, or its the only game where they and anyone can be super powerful.

I agree 100% with the OP.   What you see is now is basically what you will be getting.   Anyone who has ever tested any MMO in its final beta stages will tell you that the product on the shelve has never been the different from that of the final beta stage minus some tweaks and bug fixes.  Don't even try to blame the beta testers for the fact that this game is turning into a piping hot steaming pile of duece in a box.  Hold the developer or publishers for pushing too soon accountable by voting with your wallet.  The more people pay for an unfinished framework, no matter how much potential, the more companies will follow suit in future games by trying to pass off a buggy beta version in a retail box.  It is very possible that in a year this will be a good title.  EQ2 had the same problem with having a busted launch, but a few expansion later is probably the best MMO on the market, but it doesn't justify releasing it in poor shape or spending money as a consumer on it.  You buy unfinished software and you become part of the problem.

Let's face facts.  Anyone who has followed any beta for any MMO knows that the final beta stages are indeed a good place to form an opinion on a game.   Name one beta for an MMO that had drastic changes implimented in the "open" beta / stress test stages?  This game is scheduled to release in 3 weeks.  It safe to say that what you are seeing now, be it good or bad, is probably going to be the state of the game plus or minus some bug fixes and other tweaking.  

If the game is as incomplete as some are saying here, this game will probably go the way of EQ2 - that being a bad launch, but a year or 2 down the road will be a solid game.   EQ2 was horrific when it launched, arguable rushed out the door to beat WoW to the shelves.  2 years later the game is very polished and probably the most solid game on the market, even more solid then WoW.  But at this stage, anyone clinging to the "Its only Beta" arguement is living in a state of wild dillusion if you think there is some sweeping changes coming.  Previous beta expereinces for every MMO at this beta stage is time tested and proven this to be the case.

If you liked EQ2 at launch you will love it now.  In light of the most recent expansion, the game has undergone massive changes for the better.   Roll up on a PvP server and go nuts.

Don't even think twice man.  if you compare the current WoW to the current EQ2, EQ2 pound for pound offers more across the board then WoW.   I made the switch after winning the contest on this website.  I play on the Nagafan PvP server, and it is the most fun I have had in a long time.   It's like WoW was before they instanced all the PvP, but better.   As far as soloability, you can easily solo in this game.   Im level 28 and I think my and all my friends made a 6 man group 1 or 2 times, and that was for the purpose of PvP.   The quest log in EQ2 holds 75 quests, which is almost close to full all the time.  EQ2 has a bad wrap because of how it was a long time ago, it is not that game today.  The same way WoW is not the same game it was when it came out.   The difference is WoW got worse and EQ2 got better.  I'm not a WoW noob either, i was the leader of a major raiding guild on my server, played 18 months, and watched in horror as the game became watered down into northing.

Just download the trial if your still on the fence.   Takes about an hour to get running, no credit card info requires, and if you decide to keep it, you can keep your guy.   The game has literally 3 times the classes WoW has, and double the races.  I've been hard pressed to find something I don't like about it so far.

A long time ago i would have said to get WoW over EQ2.   When EQ2 came out it was a complete steaming pile of duece and WoW was a polished game.   However at this point in time, having played WoW for 18 Months and EQ2 more recently,  EQ2 completely obliterates WoW in every aspect.  Both games have changed a lot since their initial release. 

WoW went from a good game to an excessively over instanced cream puff game.   The PvP servers in WoW are basically the same thing as the PvE server since Blizzard's balls have shrivelled up into nothing.  They are so scared to hurt someones feelings that they watered the game down into MMO Lite.  The PvE is a serious of dumb gimmicky bosses that require you to stand on a certain floor tile while hopping on your left foot, spinning clockwise, and singing the national anthem.    The WoW PvP has become almost completely instanced, and the ew expansion brings NOTHING to the table.   2 years for 1 expansion pack that doesn't even add a new class?

EQ2 started as a game that was obviously rushed to the shelves to beat WoW and it paid for it.  As time went on many of the horrible features have been weeded out, and with now 3 expansions under their belt, there is a staggering amount of content levelling up.  The quest log holds 75 at a time and is very often close to full as opposed to WoW's 20.  Their PvP servers are fun and remind me of WoW before the battlegrounds, all overworld.

I think if you want something that will go the distance odds are better off with EQ2 at this point.  The game is just as polished as WoW, has more features likes player and guild housing, a better crafting system, and you wont level to max in 2 weeks.  If you never played an MMO before then maybe WoW would be better as some of the above posters mentioned.

Once again, more instanced PvP makes this aspect of the game a laughable joke for anyone who likes to fight other players.  If your waiting for this expansion because your looking for PvP, there are far better options out there.

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Originally posted by weg886

Is going to be the best game out and ever made read the artical on the front page of mmorpg.com.

What i been looking for and now i found .

been a  fps and mmorpg player for about 10 years now and never had a mmorpg that what 100 % the way i like it .

I like real world stuff  full loot  anyone kill anyone but if you do watch your back that is for sure!

skill in what you do and only what you do you swim  your skill never stops but it will stop only if you stop useing it like you stop swimming and it stops and  you will also lose skill slowy if you dont use it!

Sort of like you forget how to do something because you have not done it for a long time.

 

Just read everything on darkfall and you will like it .

It has everything for everyone .

And the the BEST thing ever is to me the aim system o ya o ya now noobs can fight anyone and if you got fps skill you have a chance to woooooop that a__ !

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I would agree that CONCEPTUALLY, it is phenominal.   Unfortunately the hype for this game is losing steam to me at least.   I told my guild about this game ages ago and we all plan to play.   At the same time though, the developers have been putting out updates that aren't updates at all.   They keep simply rehashing the same information over and over.   Given the amount of features this game should have, you would think there would be a bit more being addresssed in updates.

I can only string along my guild so long with the complete and utter lack of a beta date.  Our guild was accepted into clan beta about 7-8 months ago, and since we have seen invitations open and close with absolutely no information other then "soon".  Another thing that makes it harder for me to like the devs as much as I want to love the games concept, is the fact that they have been basically not been faithful to those who visit their forums.   If your a die hard follower of the game, the first place information should be available is the Darkfall website, not here, not warcry, or any other site.  Its just common courtesy to the people who have been lingering on their site for 5 years and seldom being the first to hear from the devs.  Until they are able to start giving timeframes and target dates, their hype attempt is a complete waste.

The other thing is that its a small company trying to develope new technology.   The implimentation of Aimed Combat, Collision Detection, and 10,000 people per server with mass combat and boat battles and weather patterns will be tough to pull off while maintaining server stability and minimual lag in a game that has twitch in it.

Other then that I agree with you, the game has the potential to be amazing, and its something that a lot of people have been wanting in an MMO for ages.   But the developement cycle is getting rediculous, and whether or not they can deliver the goods is ultimately going to determin whether or not this is what everyone has been waiting for, or the next Dark and Light disaster.

You should check out the EQ2 PvP servers.   I hate Sony more then most, but our guild just started up on Nagafan and we are having a blast so far.

It's not just a matter of getting smaller.  It's the fact that a lot of games will never have you ever go back to an area because you "Outlevel" or do all the quests.   Take WoW for example.   The world is moderately size, but when you factor in that you almost never go back to 85% of the areas for any reason, then your stuck looking at the same 2 or 3 areas till the end of your days.   FFXI was a good game in this respect because there was always a reason to go back to older dungeons and areas. 

Also travel can make a world seem even smaller.   Griffin rides and the like totally trivialize any feeling of trvel and making your way through the world.   Theres one in every possible place, and you can fly almost anywhere without walking.  In most cases you can land 2 minutes from any dungeon, and revive even closer.

I think developers need to start actually learning how to utilize the world areas they have created because no matter how big the world is, if your always looking at the same 3 areas because theres nothing to do in the rest of the world.  

The trial is only 18 Meg download, and takes abour 1 hour to patch.  You don't even need a credit card info to type in to play it.   In the time you probably spent contemplating this you could have already been playing.

You can send an email to them and ask for yourself, they responded within an hour or 2.  Just scroll down to the bottom of the website and there is a "Contact Us" link.   support@mmo or something or other.  Thats where i got my info.

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Originally posted by sacreddaykil

hi, i won one of the packages (EQ2 and expansions) and just wanted to know if anyone knew aproxomately (dont know how thats spelled) how long it will take for me to get it? ( i live in europe)

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Pretty sure the email I got in repsonse to me asking said that it will be another week before international winners copies ship out.

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Originally posted by Shadow4482

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Originally posted by spiritglow
Spiritglow

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Spiritglow... what are you homosexual?

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Go run with a scissors down a slip and slide.


I'm in the same boat Spirit.   After winning the drawing, me and my Co-Leader of our guild decided to check out the trial and so far we are impressed.   We plan on playing on one of the Nagafan PvP server as Qeynos since I read they need people.   I sent an email to MMORPG.com asking the same question because my guild is getting a bit antsy aiting for my review of the game and many are starting the trial as well.   I got an email back telling me they would be shipping them out to winners located in the USA today, and epect probably a 3-5 day shipping USPS Priority Mail.  International people will have to wait a little bit longer.