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All Posts by niceguy3978

All Posts by niceguy3978

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Originally posted by Avelindaus
A year or 2 some guy or gal posted some statistics about some game called warhammer online.He want to tell to everyone so they can help to game stay alive.Everyone called him or her a liar.Well you know how that ended.

How much money does the game need to earn in order for it to not be in trouble?

Originally posted by seamonkey001
Originally posted by niceguy3978
Originally posted by Kyleran
I'd have thought GOOGLE translate could do a better job than this.

Google doesn't have an Ambien and scotch translator.

Bing does LOL.

I am resisting the urge to see if this is true.  Tonight, after I have had some Ambien...and scotch, I'll check.

Originally posted by Kyleran
I'd have thought GOOGLE translate could do a better job than this.

Google doesn't have an Ambien and scotch translator.

Somehow we went from a guess that there are between 500,000-1,000,000 (meaning the game would have lost 75-85 percent of its players) to...the game lost 85% of its players.  I don't really like GW2, and don't particularly care how many people play it, but the original post reads like someone downed a half-dozen Ambien with a scotch chaser and then typed their stream of thoughts on the fate of GW2.
It's a little early in the day to be drinking.  I guess it must be 5 o'clock somewhere.
Originally posted by goboygo
Are you new to WoW?  Blizzards expansions always cost that much.  The race to the bottom in F2P  has no bearing on this.

Every other expansion was 39.99 for the base version.

Originally posted by Burntvet

Here is the bit that matters from the FTC:

 

Federal Trade Commission Statement. In a phone call on 11 September 2008, a Federal Trade Commission representative stated the following, “I’m not aware of any Federal law stating that software can’t be returned. I’ve just searched my database and can’t find anything. I’ve never heard of it before.” [Source: Cindy, last name withheld for privacy] Documents available on the Federal Trade Commission website include the following statements regarding software returns.

  • “… that the right to refund can be satisfied by a legal requirement, and that legal requirement is UCITA itself.  So, automatically it will say in mass market licensing you have a right to refund.  There is a right to refund under UCITA…” (Source: Symposium Transcript, 27 October 2000, page 308, lines 4-8) [PDF]
  • “…if you bought software as a consumer or as a small business under certain circumstances and the software doesn’t work, you can go back to the manufacturer or back to the retailer and demand a refund, just as you can get a refund for a tangible good that doesn’t work.” (Source: SymposiumTranscript, 27 October 2000, page 315, 11-16) [PDF]
 
By extension, it is assumed that no alpha/beta product is complete, does everything advertised,  and works completely, thus, the requirement for a universal (or nearly so) refund  for alpha/beta software. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS NOT RELEASED YET!
 
 
Here is the summary for the whole entry:
 
Summary. According to the U.S. Government Federal Trade Commission, consumers have the legal right to return software for a full refund (or perhaps in-store credit) if it is defective, or does not work on their computer, or if it did not perform as advertised, or if they simply decide that for any reason they were not completely satisfied with the product. The validity of this fact is demonstrated by the prevalence of resellers and software manufacturers who offer a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee on their software.
 
 
Edit: added summary statement from the FTC

I swear, I'm not trying to be a forum stalker, but looking at your profile, you appear to be from Maryland, which appears to have some very robust consumer protection laws, including software.  What you cited above would apply to Maryland, and Virginia because they did pass UCITA, but unfortunately it wasn't a federal law and only applies to those states that passed it.  It does, however, make me want to move to Virginia or Maryland, if for no other reason than the strong consumer protection laws.

Originally posted by Burntvet

Here is the bit that matters from the FTC:

 

Federal Trade Commission Statement. In a phone call on 11 September 2008, a Federal Trade Commission representative stated the following, “I’m not aware of any Federal law stating that software can’t be returned. I’ve just searched my database and can’t find anything. I’ve never heard of it before.” [Source: Cindy, last name withheld for privacy] Documents available on the Federal Trade Commission website include the following statements regarding software returns.

  • “… that the right to refund can be satisfied by a legal requirement, and that legal requirement is UCITA itself.  So, automatically it will say in mass market licensing you have a right to refund.  There is a right to refund under UCITA…” (Source: Symposium Transcript, 27 October 2000, page 308, lines 4-8) [PDF]
  • “…if you bought software as a consumer or as a small business under certain circumstances and the software doesn’t work, you can go back to the manufacturer or back to the retailer and demand a refund, just as you can get a refund for a tangible good that doesn’t work.” (Source: SymposiumTranscript, 27 October 2000, page 315, 11-16) [PDF]
 
By extension, it is assumed that no alpha/beta product is complete, does everything advertised,  and works completely, thus, the requirement for a universal (or nearly so) refund  for alpha/beta software. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS NOT RELEASED YET!
 
 
Here is the summary for the whole entry:
 
Summary. According to the U.S. Government Federal Trade Commission, consumers have the legal right to return software for a full refund (or perhaps in-store credit) if it is defective, or does not work on their computer, or if it did not perform as advertised, or if they simply decide that for any reason they were not completely satisfied with the product. The validity of this fact is demonstrated by the prevalence of resellers and software manufacturers who offer a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee on their software.
 
 
Edit: added summary statement from the FTC

These cite the Uniform Computer Information Transaction Act, which doesn't actually exist.  I'm just copy pasting this from Wikipedia:

Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA) was an attempt to introduce a Uniform Act for US States to follow. As a model law, it only specifies a set of guidelines, and each of the States should decide if to pass it or not, separately. UCITA has been drafted by National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws (NCCUSL).[1]

UCITA has been designed to clarify issues which were not addressed by existing Uniform Commercial Code. "Few disagree that the current Uniform Commercial Code is ill-suited for use with licensing and other intangible transactions," said practicing attorney Alan Fisch.[2]

UCITA has faced severe opposition from various groups.[3][4][5]

UCITA has only been passed in two states, Virginia and Maryland. The law did not pass in other states.[2] Nevertheless, legal scholars, such as noted commercial law professor Jean Braucher, believe that the UCITA offers academic value.[2]

 

So, it looks like Virginia and Maryland have robust consumer protection laws when it comes to software, but the FTC citation is based on what would have been if the law had been passed in all 50 states.

Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Kothoses
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Tyggs
Originally posted by Aztec
Despite some opposition I still know my feelings on the matter are correct for me. I feel robbed and kicked in the ballz. You should never put the customer in such a position. This is business etiquette 101. People in this new generation are used to that I guess. I remember a time were companies cherished their customers and planned and thought ahead to avoid these issues from being created. SOE's gross incompetence is not my problem. I did file a chargeback today and I wash my hands of this company and their shady practices. Thanks for your input on the matter.

You got what you paid for. You are committing credit fraud with a chargeback, as chargebacks are for fraudulent charges against your account. You could instead contact SOE and see if they will credit you the balance of the discount.

Categorically incorrect.

In the US at least, so long as a product is "pre-release" or "alpha/beta" for software, a customer is literally entitled to a refund.

While this customer could have contacted SOE for a refund, (and SOE would have been required to offer a refund)  the end result is the same. So, meh.

And further, a customer is not required to stay on the phone for 3 hours with customer service, while they talk you out of trying to get a refund. Just call it "unable to reach a resolution" with the vendor after spending 20 mins on hold. Which is a valid reason for a chargeback.

This is the risk that these software companies run by pre-selling alpha/beta access to unfinished games. They want the early and big money, they are on the hook to refund literally everyone before the game "launches".

Like it or not, that is the way it is.

 

Chargebacks can also be contested by the company they were issued against.

 

All they have to do is prove they provided the service as advertised, which in this case is "Digital access to the product which was consumed by the customer" and your bank will then reverse the chargeback.

 

Its also fraudulent to seek a chargeback on something if you do not have legitimate grounds, which are not limited to

 

False advertising

Failure to supply goods and or services as promised in the event of full payment where such services are reasonably practical to be provided.

Withdrawment from the agreement to provide services without suitable notice except where implied in the agreement of sale (Your EULA).

Goods or services not fit for the purpose in which they were sold.

 

Putting a chargeback through because of buyers regret is simply fraud, most companies will eat up small amounts of it and simply sanction the account that issued them, but many can and do successfully contest chargebacks in the majority of cases.  

 

Not that I am stating a point of view on the original issue, I think sales happen life sucks, yes putting a game on sale before its even released is something that is a bit weird, but considering beta is coming to an end in the next few months, not wholly unsurprising.   But spreading false information about what chargebacks are is rather bad form, if the guy or gal follows your instructions and ends up being countered with a fraud suit then they have only them selves to blame.

 

TLDR Chargebacks are not the same as a "refund" and "Unable to reach agreement with vendor" is a reasonable excuse if the vendor is refusing to provide the goods or services as advertised, not when its simply a case of buyers regret.

Perhaps I need to make it more simple for you: Under US consumer protection law, all customers are legally entitled to a refund for pre-release software, regardless of the cause, period.

All it needs to be, is "alpha/beta" and that is it.

The customer is ENTITLED to a refund, no matter what any EULA says. No EULA can violate a consumers rights and stand up.

None of that other stuff you said, matters, in the face of that, so long as the customer "attempted to get a refund" to which he/she is entitled. And that could be a couple busy signals on the CS line. Again, because it is an "alpha/beta" product and thus not complete in the eyes of the law. That is enough.

If the customer were "nice" he could have tried harder to save SOE the chargeback fee, but he isn't really required to do that either.

Yeah, consumer rights are a terrible thing, right?

 

(And I have dealt with these issue a number of times in my RL job, and it is EXACTLY this way.)

 

 

What law is this?  I'm not aware of any federal U.S. law that covers the purchase of pre-release software.  There may be some individual state laws out there covering it, but I've never heard of a federal law that deals with it.

Originally posted by Aztec
Originally posted by Shaiapouf

So when the game went Open Beta, would the founders have been ripped off as well? All the founders went into it, knowing it was going to be a F2P game, and that the only real bonus they would get was 1. The couple items. And 2. Early access.  Given their target of a Winter 2014 release, that means anyone who buys into the founders pack now will get probably 4-6 months of beta time. Assuming that Winter is simply "open beta" and not "release", which could see people getting into the game even faster.

People pay for things when they're new, and pay more for it. If a brand new game was released and you pay $60 for it, thats to be expected. However, over time when people stop buying as much of it (Which is likely the case, as the founders packs have been out for over half a year now if I remember correctly?), the price is either reduced, or discounted in order to rev up sales once more. It sucks to pay $100 for something thats $33 on a sale...but theres little you can really do. SOE could either have kept its prices static, and just gotten no new players for the next 4-6 months after all the people interested in founders dried up, or did a sale to get a new batch of players, and renewed interest.

Yes, but 2 weeks and you lose 66%? That is a bit harsh. Some people paid 100- yesterday lol. So none of this is Sony's fault or bad timing on Sony's part and all those people complaining were not justified in their anger?

Why  is it particularly bad timing now?  There will always be people who "just bought it yesterday."   

Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by dracomun
They are making the new contorller of the Hammer a women. Thor the  Male has lost the hammer a few times to other people and regains it.

"this".

And my thought is just buy the marvel products you like and don't buy the products you don't like.

Does it have to be any more difficult than that?

My question is can nothing ever be discussed without someone jumping in just to say that?

Why can't people simply share their thoughts?

His post was on the topic of what the OP actually posted.  Much more so than the side discussions that have popped up.

Originally posted by TankYou88
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by TankYou88
Originally posted by Kothoses

To the person who says Blizzard are putting out more content than most put into an mmo, they are also charging for one with this expansion ;)

 

If you want to talk about developers putting out a lot of content, look at FFXIV's content patches, look at Rift especially pre 2.0, swtor gives you more for free than blizzard have put out since the launch of Pandaria, Wildstar has a lot of content and yes Wildstar has a base fee, but so does the wow expansion.

 

What do blizzard do with your sub fees?  What has that bought you for the last 12 months, 1 raid? Yeah... thats a lot of content right there.

 

I will play the expansion for a bit sample the lore enjoy the stories, but I wont support WoW long term like I do all of the above mentioned mmos (with the exception of Wildstar because it simply isnt for me).

 

Blizz will earn my expansion dollars and maybe a couple of months sub, but they will not win me back the way they had me for vanilla tbc and lk (unbroken sub, plenty of cash shop purchases and transfers to boot) until they can keep up with the more recent mmo launches for new content.

 

So because F2P games give you content for free you consider that better? Not that they put out almost close to no content just that you dont have to pay for it so it must be better?

Ya ill take my better content and better bang for my buck.

Are you serious?  F2P mmos are putting Blizz to shame with content right now.  Your comment, suggesting they put out almost no content, is just a lie or you're in denial.  lol.

It's about the quality & quanitity, especially from the #1 MMO.

  • MoP launches on Sept 25, 2012.
  • MoP's last major update, which was 5.4, was released Sept 10, 2013.
  • WoD will launch around December.
It's been around 11 months since 5.4, with 6 more months until WoD.  Are you seriously saying this acceptable from the #1 MMO on the market?  They were releasing frequent updates, such as, Brawler's Guild, New Scenarios, Timeless Isle, etc., and then they just stopped.  And then they have the audacity to put a Cash Shop inside the game, selling level 90s and vanity pets and mounts.  They truly are milking this 10 year old, cash cow, dry.

I rather have quality. No other MMO is putting any meaningful content out. 

Things that make you go..huh?

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by TankYou88
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Altman

Robert A. Altman

"Altman is a lawyer. He became part of the company BCCI. During his time there he was accused of helping the business buy an American bank and lying to US regulators about it. In 1992, he was indicted for eight felony charges in New York. Altman maintained that he himself was duped by the bank. He was acquitted of all charges, although he did agree to be banned from banking to settle a civil suit by the Federal Reserve."

Just a little info to think about when thinking of the case of zenimax vs oculus.  Make of it what you will.

And inb4 the "you are bias and have an agenda", I dont really care.  What I can say is I love bethesda games and Id Softwares Rage and Doom.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haha 1992!!!  Boy as more and more info about this lawsuit comes out the oculus backers are really stretching to smear Zenimax.  Just because you are backing a potential shady company (Oculus) doesn't mean it's credible to make a silly attempt at smearing Zenimax.  

8 Felonies isnt something small. if you commit 8 felonies odds are you are going to jail for life. 

yup.

makes me curious who is on the board. I thought CEOs where hired which makes me wonder why they would hire him

He co-founded the company, that is likely why he is CEO.

Originally posted by Kyleran
The desperation of people trying to get these keys is astonishing, and so is the amount of anger and disappointment for failure.
 

The other amusing part is that 90% of them likely wouldn't have gotten a key had everything gone the way they thought it would, and they would have found reasons to complain anyway.

Originally posted by xmatee
You should give keys for those who wrote a comment into this, or the second beta key topic.
 

Why?  Half (or more) of the people posting here have been acting like my 3 year old when she gets told "no."  I wouldn't mind seeing them put limits on the drawing, such as only for accounts created before July 3rd 2014.

This is simultaneously the best and the worst thread ever.
That was funny.  Well worth the 8 minutes to watch it.
Does the free 30 days start counting down at purchase, or can I buy it now and apply the code/start my month when I want?
Originally posted by Fendel84M
But but but F2P games are supposed to be all children!

Yep, thanks to no barrier of entry.  On the other hand many of the people that make that argument are the same people saying how cheap the mmorpg hobby is and those that can't afford it are doing something wrong.  So, P2P is both too expensive and cheap at the same time.  

Originally posted by Bravnik

Look Brad and Smedley are cut from the same cloth. It's the piece that rides up the crack of your ass. Both have done some good for gaming but both have really hurt gaming even more. Brad sold out EQ to SOE and then SOE under the supervision of Smelly ruined a good game. Then they come out with EQ2 which ended up being a total joke and a further ruination of the EQ world.

The Brad started Vanguard. Promised to be what EQ2 should have been. People loved the idea. Microsoft was involved and no SOE. Then MS dropped and SOE was back in but Brad promised everyone that SOE is just a publisher and had no say in the game design. Next thing we know all the designers are pulled into the parking lot at work and told they are all fired. Brad was not even there. SOE took over Vanguard and Brad had a job. Smelly and Brad humping each others legs again. The game flops.

I honestly don't know how Brad could have any credibility at this point. I also don't know how Smelly could have a job after the failures he has done. SWG anyone?

Both men have done more to hurt gaming and MMO's as we know them than anyone else in the business.

McQuaid didn't sell out to SOE.  Verant was a wholly owned subsidiary of Sony, and was brought back in under the brand in the early 2000's.  Brad never owned anything, he started out as a programmer and worked his way up to be one of the creative leads of the game, but never had any real management role it was all on the development side.  We got to see his management skills with the Vanguard fiasco.

 
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