I have been in the closed beta for a long while now and here is my oppinion.

This game, while the side quests are the same, has a very entertaining personal class story line for each and every class. I enjoyed the story lines that I played, and the voice acting and quest system kind of makes you want to sit there and listen to them talk about it - it adds an extra layer of immersion and emotion. To be honest by the time I play through all 8 classes (which I intend to do purley for the stories of each class) It will likley be 6 months, in which case I'm sure there will be new endgame content. This is of course assuming I dont play till the end, play the endgame content then whine cause I'm bored, the seperate story lines are more than enough to keep you busy.

I like how people are calling EvE a "niche" game. over 330,000 active players is nothing to shake a stick at, if we rewind pre-wow it would be the first or second biggest game on the market, and now its easily in the top 5, niche? I think not.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Szasz

Originally posted by Dominisi

However..... with TOR's implementation of the class/skill system, what difference is there to WoW besides what bonuses you recieve from just clicking the "this is the advanced class I want to be button". To me the "advance classes" are just a paper thin illusion of specialization, because you are still picking trees that benifit your "chosen" advanced class.

I submit to you, that if they took away advanced classes entirely and just had the skill trees present that it would be a near copy of WoW and being as the "advanced class" is just a paper-thin illusion, it would not have any affect on game play, or the development of characters.

It's actually a better comparison to compare TOR's class/talent tree system with how it's done in EQ2 and AoC:

- in EQ2 you pick a generic class first (eg rogue) and at L20 you pick your definitive class (eg brigand or assassin)

 

- in AoC you have a class archetype (priest, soldier, rogue, mage), within that class archetype you can pick your definitive class, for example Conqueror, Dark Templar or Guardian, and then you have 2 class specific talent trees and 1 archetype tree that you share with other classes within that archetype class.

 

- in SWTOR you pick an (archetype) class first and at L10 you pick your definitive advanced class. Within that archetype class you have 2 (advanced) class specific talent trees and 1 you share with other classes within that archetype class. So, an SWTOR Guardian or Sentinel within the (archetype) class 'Jedi Knight' share a talent tree in the exact same way that a Conqueror, Dark Templar and Guardian within the archetype 'Soldier' share a talent tree in AoC.

I totally agree with you - I just used WoW as an example, and we all know that WoW's character progression was a slightly modified copy of EQ etc which all came from DnD etc etc etc. Point being is I see the OPs point, it would be cool to see more variety like the SWG example I gave.

I think I understand what the OP and the people in the "hater" arena are getting at. And I also understand what the "fainbois" are getting at. Here to inject some mediation to the retard in the thread, here is Dominisi.

Its a class based system (Like WoW)

The "advanced classes" are really nothing more than the talent trees in WoW, except instead of 3 per class, there are two.

Where ToR differs is they have another layer of  "specilization" to the mix with their version of the skill trees, with what we have been discussing thus far.

However..... with TOR's implementation of the class/skill system, what difference is there to WoW besides what bonuses you recieve from just clicking the "this is the advanced class I want to be button". To me the "advance classes" are just a paper thin illusion of specialization, because you are still picking trees that benifit your "chosen" advanced class.

I submit to you, that if they took away advanced classes entirely and just had the skill trees present that it would be a near copy of WoW and being as the "advanced class" is just a paper-thin illusion, it would not have any affect on game play, or the development of characters.

Being a pre-CU-NGE SWG player, I much perfer the skill based / tree hybrid system in which there were literally hundereds of different viable builds avalable to everybody with a "total skill cap" to prevent being over powered. It allowed for greater variety than the cookie cutter builds that the "talent tree" type system of character progression warrants in he long term.

I hope the e-thugs don't think my oppinion is wrong :(

For those of you saysing EvE should be concidered for the "new mmos" eve was released in 2003 so it falls under the old category.

Originally posted by Joshua69

a large majority of people hate MMO's. I forget that, I can see why, But I also see why people(like myself) love them to death. Especially when you spent your child hood(me) killing Gnoll's and teleporting people for tips

 

Does anybody else feel sorry for this kid wasting his childhood playing WoW?

http://e3.g4tv.com/games/pc/61502/star-wars-the-old-republic/index/

Early leak?

Good job G4!

Step 1: Go to http://www.yougetsignal.com/tools/web-sites-on-web-server/

Step 2: Type in ANY Valve website (I used www.half-life.com)

Step 3: Now listed is all of the domains registered to that IP address

Step 4: Shit Brix when you read www.half-life3.com on the right

I think I know what a big suprise next week at E3 is gonna be.

I don't think I could agree with you more on this column. In he past several years MMOs have gotten easier. The simple reason for this is the easier it is the more people will play it, the more people that play it, the more of a bottom line you have, and in the end of the day you and your investors are overwhelmingly happy, which I'm sure everybody on this tread no doubt gets.

I hope that in the future we see some more difficult games like EvE, because they are the only reason that I play, challenges that make me feel great.

Dominisi:

On skill: Curent PvE is whack a mole BS. Raids are a bit more involved, but still don't impress me. You're right. PvP on the other hand isn't fluid- it's sporadic (unless you and everyone around you are max leveled). Some games the differences are minimal- a great player can 'take' a higer level 'good' player- or better in the right situation. But most MMO's are 'level-armored', and a difference of 10 or 20 levels makes the underdog a flailing child. Yes- challenging- I know.

On communities/Social Structure: Look at other countries. How many times has war ended because of need for food? Started because of unshared technology? Hell- weapons ARE technology. That's 'crafting' in game terms (if most existing crafting systems weren't retarded). Point is- PvP could be much better WITH PvE structures to back them up.

On Egos: Being good, saying that you're good, and proving that you're good are all different. The best players I've ever met- at chess, Strret fighter- Mortal Combat- Even Shadowbane were all quiet destroyers. They never needed to brag. Their work spoke for them. Most importantly, you know as well as anyone that diarrhea-mouthed braggarts don't shut up just because they've been beat. They lie, make excuses, talk about luck- but never shut up. This has nothing to do with getting better. It's just a sad part of PvP culture. 'Psyching out' your oppponent or whatever- the battle never ends. Translate that to 'I'm afraid I might lose & need any little advantage I can get.'

Also- PvP 'game depth' is emergent- not designed. Sandboxing is a 'cheap win' for game designers- which is why PvP currently is 'potentially' the most challengng. 

But it's not always going to be that way.

 

Well you see my points and validate them perfectly.

I agree that a blend of PvP and PvE are essential to make a great game, two points in case: Star Wars Galaxies (pre-cu), and EvE Online. You had SWG, where crafted items were 99% of the time better than what you could find (the exception of course was very rare Legendary weapons, which were very very very rare) PvE was an essential part of PvP, because you needed the resources to make the weapons and armor you would use. This game was also a sandbox in the ways of character progression and the way that the world was built.  EvE is another great example, 99% of the items you use in EvE directly come from a PvE manufacturer, one goes in hand with the other, thats what makes it so fun.

Now notice, that I cited two Sandbox (not level based) Games.

On the subject of Level based, themepark games, you have a different picture for PvP, and the bottom line is, your "level" argument is invalid, Nobody, and I mean nobody expects to do well if they aren't at max level when they are playing, I agree that lower level ganking is easy, but the skill required goes up exponentially when you are players of equal level which I would strive to say in even a game like WoW, 95% of the payers participate in PvP at max level. Also, in these themepark games, the requirement for gear varies, but the best PvP players I've seen, have the best gear to go along with it.

You hit the nail on the head with egos - its usually the quiet ones who have the most skill, and the egotistical nubkins that do nothing, but that isn't any different from real life is it?

I very, very heavily disagree with your  "Cheap-win" sandbox statement. It takes much more time, effort, and design know-how to make a game that not only has static locations, objects, and enviroment, but allows the player to change and modify that to his liking, its much easier to build classes than a system that lets you mix and match and modify to your specific play style, ask any programmer or designer, its just a fact.

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by Dominisi

Let me break this down for you OP.

On Skill:

PvE is not fluid. You are fighting mobs of a specific mindset, more or less, the mindset that is the programming code that they were built with, that will do specific things at specific times, with a very small degree of variance. Therefore, PvE takes about as much skill as it takes to figure out a problem once, and then farm it constantly.

PvP on the other hand, is a fluid mechanic. There is no limit to actions that the human brain can adapt to, and surprise you, thus making PvP challenges much more difficult, because you have to react, and there is no point where you can mindlessly cut through hordes of preprogramed people, with preprogramed reactions.

Therefore PvP, when played at its peak, is much more skill intensive, and requires a much more apt player than ANY PvE ever will, until the point that developers start implementing very advanced AI that will change any encounter every time you play it.

On Communities / Social Structure:

Yes, you get a long much better with people who are all striving towards the same goal. Look out the window in your basement room for a moment. Do all of the countries in the world get along? Are we all striving towards the same goals? No. Alliances of countries get along much better than enemies who want what the other country has. Ergo, diplomacy and much more social skill than you obviously have are required to keep peace. The same goes for PvP games, take EvE online for example, the political and social structures have a lot to do with the outcome and territories controlled by the alliances of that game.

On Egos:

People who play at the higher skill level of PvPers who have to adapt to situations in order to survive them are 99.9% of the time much better players than the ones who refuse to PvP - and they resent you "carebears" because they quite frankly get frustrated at your low levels of casual play and your constant screw ups in a given, scripted, easy encounter.

Bottom line: If you don't like the egos of PvP games and players, don't play them, go play something easier for your mental capacity, and if you do play them, become better at it than they are, and shut down their egos instead of making a post on a forum that nobody really cares about.

 

This is where i wish I knew how to make smiley emoticons here. Oh well.

/emote_thumbsup

Though, I do not think "fluidity" applies to PvE and PvP in the sense you had hoped for. Fluid PvE is being able to mow through mobs and reach objectives quickly, fluid PvP is being able to get back to the fight quickly, and without huge setbacks.

By Fluid I was talking more along the terms of changing readily; shifting; not fixed, stable, or rigid: fluid movements.

Meaning that the game play isn't the same thing, over and over, with the same scripted responses, or a small variation, it is always changing, fluid.

Fist of the Empire sucks, just sayin. =D

Let me break this down for you OP.

On Skill:

PvE is not fluid. You are fighting mobs of a specific mindset, more or less, the mindset that is the programming code that they were built with, that will do specific things at specific times, with a very small degree of variance. Therefore, PvE takes about as much skill as it takes to figure out a problem once, and then farm it constantly.

PvP on the other hand, is a fluid mechanic. There is no limit to actions that the human brain can adapt to, and surprise you, thus making PvP challenges much more difficult, because you have to react, and there is no point where you can mindlessly cut through hordes of preprogramed people, with preprogramed reactions.

Therefore PvP, when played at its peak, is much more skill intensive, and requires a much more apt player than ANY PvE ever will, until the point that developers start implementing very advanced AI that will change any encounter every time you play it.

On Communities / Social Structure:

Yes, you get a long much better with people who are all striving towards the same goal. Look out the window in your basement room for a moment. Do all of the countries in the world get along? Are we all striving towards the same goals? No. Alliances of countries get along much better than enemies who want what the other country has. Ergo, diplomacy and much more social skill than you obviously have are required to keep peace. The same goes for PvP games, take EvE online for example, the political and social structures have a lot to do with the outcome and territories controlled by the alliances of that game.

On Egos:

People who play at the higher skill level of PvPers who have to adapt to situations in order to survive them are 99.9% of the time much better players than the ones who refuse to PvP - and they resent you "carebears" because they quite frankly get frustrated at your low levels of casual play and your constant screw ups in a given, scripted, easy encounter.

Bottom line: If you don't like the egos of PvP games and players, don't play them, go play something easier for your mental capacity, and if you do play them, become better at it than they are, and shut down their egos instead of making a post on a forum that nobody really cares about.

Originally posted by Nasir64

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Nasir64

Hmm wow your clever , adding pictures to your dribble. Maybe if you had read the thread instead of jumping in you may have knew that my point was made. Hence why I havn't posted til now. I don't even have to troll my own thread, people do it for me.

You mean the point that EVE does not have 300k players but 300k subscriptions, which everyone already knew?

Or the complete made up point that 90% of the players have more than 1 account, while the last official number is less than 20%? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=461283&page=2#36

Or the stupid reasoning that you only seen 51k users online once in your 5 years of EVE as it is only since Feb 2009 that this peak has been achieved ...  http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2765&tid=1 

Here are the monthly records of this year : jan/09 48065 - feb/09 51675 - mrt/09 53850 - apr/09 51040  -  mei/09 52200 - jun/09 51555 - jul/09 46880 ( unholy rage has hit here ) - aug/09 49098 - sep/09 50873, you can also go check my site http://www.mmodata.net/  ( these numbers are provided to me directly by the CCP's CEO Assistant )

And what does PCU have to do with multiple accounts anyway? It is irrelevant imho. It is also only logical not everyone is online at the same time, it is a worldwide server, like someone else said, if everyone plays 4 hours a day ( which is alot ) then we have 50k people online at the same time, so it matches perfectly. Obviously on non peak times we see between 30 and 40k players.

So you only made 1 of your 3 points in the OP, a point we all knew already and is nothing special in the mmo scene.

 

 

You just contradicted yourself in that post. Apparently you have been waiting to jump down my throat with your added babble. The official number of less then 20% was made so long ago and by an non existent employee as of current. I could care less about the most people online at once. That has nothing to do with anything. It seems to me you are just trying to be important here. No one cares, the point of this thread was to spark interest in those who was interested in EVE and wanted to know how the population was. As I see from some of the posts the info was appreciated. Move along.

So thats your defense? Somebody post solid evidence and all you can do is flame people who made you look like an idiot? You must be a pro CAOD poster.

See, what a lot of people are failing to realize is the fact that it is, indeed, a business. While right now World of Warcraft holds the vast majority of subscriptions to online games, why not tie up the loose ends?

This is what Blizzard is doing, they already own the casual crowd, and with all of the sand-box MMOers who want something more complicated, more in-depth, more time consuming, who make up the OTHER majority of gamers, Blizzard wants to deliver this product to you.

This could be for a variety of reasons, including dominating the entire genere spread of MMOs. They could be afraid that SW:TOR will steal away all of their casual gamers, so they are going to need something for retribution. But who knows.

My assessment is that Blizzard will be producing a very in depth, sand-box mmo, and have a monopoly on the MMO gaming industry, and continue to make ludacris amounts of money off of it.

To be perfectly honest, AION is essentially World of Warcraft, they didn't really come out with anything so new and revolutionary that it will pull people who have a lot of time and energy vested in WoW away from WoW. Some people will leave for a change of pace, but they will most definatley come back - and then there are the variables, people whos friends go back, they'll go back to follow them, or they will make new friends who love AION. But in reality, I see people sticking with WoW untill something radically new comes out, like TOR or Blizzards "Next-gen MMO."  Either that, or the graphics will become so outdated without any updates from Blizzad it will be unbearable to play.

I just got through watching the demo-footage, and I had a lot of the same initial reactions.

The graphics at a glance, look sub par, but for some reason the further they went along in the demo-footage, the better they seemed to get, which was definately a benifit. So, I will attribute that to just the lack of some of the game being polished.

Now seeing some of the combat, it definately looks like it will be enjoyable, making you feel like a badass and all, but what I did not see was like the OP said, any social interaction, all I saw was instaces and your companion running around. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that from what we've seen you can solo most of the game, that really caters to those of us gamers who don't have as much time as we used to, but still, the social interaction needs a boost, from what I can precieve it will be towards the endgame where there are encounters that you and your compainon can't handle.

Overall I'm still looking foward to the game.

The only thing you've really convinced me of is your absolute "epic fail" ignorance. This game is being kept so tight underwraps and details are being released so slowly how on earth could you even begin to think that you know what your talking about?

Sit back, take a deep breath, and wait for bioware to publish more about the game. Cause last time I checked they never stated that there would be no crafting, space flight, etc. in the game. I can pretty much counter everything that your saying with a "details on that subject haven't been released."

I agree with one of the posters on the first page, you give all Pre-CU SWG vets a bad name.

To each his own I guess.

Originally posted by XanthosX

 I mean honestly, not every game is like WoW, just because it's a fucking RPG, and it has quests, swords, magic, a hotbar, and instances, DOES NOT mean its a WoW Clone!!!

Seems like WoW did what you just did, "Oh wow John, that is a good idea, lets I'm gonna use it and try to make it a little better!" Only difference is, WoW succeeded, and you didn't.

www.blizzard.com

Check it out, its about valentine haha.