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All Posts by Hoplites

All Posts by Hoplites

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217 posts found
Beta key? Sure why not xoxoxo. :)
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Hoplites
Originally posted by lizardbones
The thing with advertising is that it costs the same, no matter what you're advertising. Advertising for CoH would cost the same as GW2. Ditto for Champions and DCUO. After a certain point, it doesn't make sense to advertise older properties unless they are doing something new. Even if the property doubles in size, it won't make up what you've spent in advertising*.

** edit **
* Especially if you have something else you can advertise that will get more return for your investment.

I don't agree at all.  

You don't have to advertise the same quanity like you do for a new game, because word of mouth tends to take care of the rest.  But word of mouth starts to wane eventually, so new marketing campaigns that are cheap, but effective can still prove to be fruitful.  

City of Heroes having a recent expansion, for example (Going Rogue) with a box, is one way to promote a new marketing campaign. At least City of Heroes had exposure of box sets visible in gaming stores in recent years, but you can't say the same for Lineage 2.

Lineage 2 is NCSOFT's flagship game afterall, and yet how much advertising muscle do you see them spending on L2 North America?  That speaks volumes about how much they care about the western market.

No one is saying they should't focus primarily on the Asian market, where they make most of their money.  But it is incredibly myopic to not even market their own flagship game in North America.

As for someone else mentioning that they should sell their property they have shut down and sits idily by. They could, but investors have to force that pressure.  If I was an investor I probably would want a greater ROR on my investment, so it makes sense if it is plausible to make money off of what they are sitting on.  

Firstly, L2 is not NCs flagship title.  Blade and Soul and GW2 are now the flagship titles as of at least Q3 last year.

Aion and Lineage have outperformed L2 over the last few years.  Lineage is still more profitible than both and it's not even open in the West anymore.  Why should they market their profitible Asian titles in the West where players speak rudely about Korean grinders.  Westerners apparently don't like Korean style game design and we've made that clear.

As has been pointed out several times in the thread, there could be other factors in not selling the IP, factors that could cost more than a one off sale will recoup.  You want to see the title live so your only real conclusion is that it would be better business for all if they sold, but that's your reality, not theirs.

No I don't agree at all.

Lineage 2 is their baby...their game...they are a publisher for GW2 but that is an important distinction right there. 

As for marketing L2, yes they can if they want because L2 isn't the only grinder on the western market and based on the recent changes I wouldn't categorized L2 a grinder anymore.   

As for the selling of intellectual property that is how money is made these days unless you are living under a rock.  So, making money is what corporations are about afterall.  You keep making assumptions and you seem to have the same myopic vision NCSOFT exhibits which is ironic.

 

 

 

Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by WildFire15

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by WildFire15

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Wicoa What matters is that Ncsoft closed a good game with a good crowd following instead of trying any number of basic reputable business strategies to keep the game open.  Some strategies take time and require forward planning, it is clear ncsoft were in a rush, In my view they took the easiest road the fastest and are taking the fastest airway out of the western market.   Case in point; Ultima and EQ are still going if those old games can keep chugging along there is zero excuse for anything else being shutdown.
Both UO and EQ were successful when they released. CoH wasn't all that successful. Especially compared to other MMOs released around the same time. Both UO and EQ have some future potential. UO because it started the industry and EQ because it was successful and has now lead to EQNext. CoH and Paragon Studios had no demonstrable future potential. They had current profitability and that was it.  
Seriously? UO and EQ had pretty much no competition upon release while City of Heroes, with practically no marketting, was released not long before World of Warcraft. Huge marketting budget, well established name in PC gaming.    In WoW's shadow, while competitors were desperately jumping at the impossible dream of being a 'WoW Killer', CoH kept going strong in it's own niche. It was in dire need of a sequel (Paragon did do some pretty impressive things with that old game engine, but it did need replacing), but it kept going and could have easily gone onto 10 years or more. After all, UO and EQ are still with us 14 and 12 years later respectively. Hell, Dark Age of Camelot's still going and that wasn't even well known of in 2001 when it came out (though you may have to correct me on that. I was aware of it but not even vaguly interested).
I heard about CoH. I had no idea what it was, because I had no idea what MMOs were, but I did hear about them. I only heard about UO because my uncle wanted me to play and I didn't hear about EQ until after I started playing WoW. CoH did have marketing. They even had marketing outside of the Video Game market, which other games did not have. The game just didn't catch on. You mentioned CoH's real problem (I think). It was a niche game. The people who played CoH didn't play anything else, and weren't likely to play anything else other than maybe a CoH2. It wouldn't matter how much advertising it got, it would always be a niche game with a small audience that would not grow and the audience would probably not play anything else. It was too successful to sell cheap, so no indie publishers could buy it, but at the same time it had no future potential so no large publishers would want it. It was the odd man out.  
True, CoH did have a comic series and there was at least one novel, but no idea how well they were known. I did read about CoH with the same lack of interest I gave every other MMO at the time until someone actually introduced me to it and I got hook.

 

I think CoH's niche had plenty of room to grow. After all, investors were willing to back Champions Online and DC Universe Online and we'd be less likely to see them in CoH outright failed. All it would take is a small advert saying you can freely make and play your own hero before a super hero movie or show to get people interested and we could have seen that niche explode. I'm actually surprised SOE hasn't taken advantage of it yet, what with Dark Knight Rises, the forth coming Man of Steel and Justice League movie and Arrow on TV




The thing with advertising is that it costs the same, no matter what you're advertising. Advertising for CoH would cost the same as GW2. Ditto for Champions and DCUO. After a certain point, it doesn't make sense to advertise older properties unless they are doing something new. Even if the property doubles in size, it won't make up what you've spent in advertising*.

** edit **
* Especially if you have something else you can advertise that will get more return for your investment.

 

I don't agree at all.  

You don't have to advertise the same quanity like you do for a new game, because word of mouth tends to take care of the rest.  But word of mouth starts to wane eventually, so new marketing campaigns that are cheap, but effective can still prove to be fruitful.  

City of Heroes having a recent expansion, for example (Going Rogue) with a box, is one way to promote a new marketing campaign. At least City of Heroes had exposure of box sets visible in gaming stores in recent years, but you can't say the same for Lineage 2.

Lineage 2 is NCSOFT's flagship game afterall, and yet how much advertising muscle do you see them spending on L2 North America?  That speaks volumes about how much they care about the western market.

No one is saying they should't focus primarily on the Asian market, where they make most of their money.  But it is incredibly myopic to not even market their own flagship game in North America.

As for someone else mentioning that they should sell their property they have shut down and sits idily by. They could, but investors have to force that pressure.  If I was an investor I probably would want a greater ROR on my investment, so it makes sense if it is plausible to make money off of what they are sitting on.  

 

 

 

Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Hoplites

City of Heroes was profitable.  Was it profitable enough?  That is why it went towards the freemium model IMVHO, or more precisely it was the catalyst for such a change.  The freemium model proved to generate a lot of monies, and thus created the basis for the freemium model used for Lineage 2 NA months later. 

City of Heroes in my guestimation was shut down because it simply wasn't a Korean MMO.  Simply as that.  Lineage 2 NA profits margins are far fewer than CoX but it stills remains.  The impact of shutting down L2 NA would severely effect confidence with investors for the Asian market where L2 is still a powerhouse.  The L2 brand name would be tarnished so they let it be.  Not convinced?  Look at the shutting down of L1 NA to show that confidence in L1 took a nose dive after that happened.

So, yes we have a right to boycott any NCSOFT game they publish just like they have a right to turn off the switch to any game.

Don't support a publisher like NCSOFT if they choose to have a myopic view of only catering to the eastern market.  They have proven that they are killer of MMOs in the western market and that infamous legacy you can't run or hide from.  More specifically you can't turn the switch off as it will always be there.

Boycott?  What do you think that is going to do?  They fired you and aren't concerned about your revenue.  If you don't play any of their other games then you have absolutely no real leverage for a boycott.

They could shut down L2 in the west.  They shuttered Lineage which is far more profitible globally than L2 is and no one batted an eyelash.  There was no nose dive in confidence by Asian gamers.  Lineage is more profitible now than most western games with WoW being an exception.  I seriously doubt Asian gamers give a damn what we're whining about over here.

So you want to boycott every publisher that has shuttered games?  What games do you plan on playing?  You're ruling out EA, NCSoft, and SoE.  That leaves you with WoW and some niche indie games with no more lifespan guarantee than anywhere else.  And you're asking the rest of us to essentially give up our hobbies because you're bitter.  I don't see that happening.

I am a WoW player so I wasn't fired thanks for attempting to be civil though.  Moving on to address your diatribe:

Boycotting doesn't only involve what choices you make but word of mouth (very big for the entertainment industry) spreads and you can create a stiuation where the potential consumers may not consider a product.  I will tell everyone I know and conventions to avoid any game NCSOFT publishes because they simply are not interested all that much in the western market.

Lineage 1 North America wasn't putting them in th red, so when they chose to close it out many were surprised given it was fine in the Asian market.  Bottom line, is that, their business practices are myopic and focused on the Asian market.  If NCSOFT wants to be taken seriously as a global publisher they need to extend an olive branch to the western market not a knife to the back.

What they have done is a public relations firms big no no and that is the sow massive discontent with a very large demographic. 

I don't play EA or SoE games because I choose to avoid them for the obvious reasons.  I am old enough to remember when EA made quality games, but their business model shifted to churning out quanity over quality as they became much larger.

City of Heroes was profitable.  Was it profitable enough?  That is why it went towards the freemium model IMVHO, or more precisely it was the catalyst for such a change.  The freemium model proved to generate a lot of monies, and thus created the basis for the freemium model used for Lineage 2 NA months later. 

City of Heroes in my guestimation was shut down because it simply wasn't a Korean MMO.  Simply as that.  Lineage 2 NA profits margins are far fewer than CoX but it stills remains.  The impact of shutting down L2 NA would severely effect confidence with investors for the Asian market where L2 is still a powerhouse.  The L2 brand name would be tarnished so they let it be.  Not convinced?  Look at the shutting down of L1 NA to show that confidence in L1 took a nose dive after that happened.

So, yes we have a right to boycott any NCSOFT game they publish just like they have a right to turn off the switch to any game.

Don't support a publisher like NCSOFT if they choose to have a myopic view of only catering to the eastern market.  They have proven that they are killer of MMOs in the western market and that infamous legacy you can't run or hide from.  More specifically you can't turn the switch off as it will always be there.

 

 

 

If this article is considered "journalism" I am Brigitte Bardot.  I am  with the others NCSFOT has earned a bad reputation and I think has sinked this reputation in the western market IMVHO.

Boycotting all NCSOFT products is a very good idea.

 

 

I agree with the others that the net result is you will have more current sub paying customers angry than newcomers, or returning players.  In addition, it appears a MoP launch is in the distance most likely. 

The F2P 1-20 is pretty much a trial run for what Blizz may do for the future.  You must remember in Asia, their payment model for WoW is not the traditional sub that is for NA/Europe regions.  I will assume the recently launched Brazillian servers are using the traditional sub payment model.  Bottom line is that I believe F2P is around the corner, because if they can continue to generate net revenue despite sub loses Blizz would be happy to continue this course.  

 

 

Unfortunately, Blizz have added items you can sell for gold in game that can be purchased with real life currency, which pretty much effects the flow of gold currency ingame.

 

That may be why YOU don't like cash shops. and really, lets face it, them being P2P is irrelevent. Either that or what you're saying is F2P can get away with anything but P2P has to give absolutely everything for free.

 

Personally, My limit is giving items on the cash shop that give stats, even if they're low stats that're easily beaten by anything else easily obtained in game. For example, if blizzard sold a set of BOAs that are actually weaker then the normal ones. it would still piss me off.

I don't blame valve one bit for selling the ring. Its an outragous price, in my opinion. What gets me is the double standard. Valve throws shit in peoples face and charges them 100 bucks, people open their wallets with a smile. Blizzard does (relatively) the same thing for cheaper and everyone throws a bitch fit.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F2P with cash shops is okay with me because I don't pay a sub but I choose what content I want to pay for. A P2P with no cash shop is okay because I pay a sub for content.  A P2P that has cash shop is way over the line.  Furthermore what valve is doing is not even comparable to WoW.

I think you mistunderstand why people don't like cash shop like mechancis in WoW.  First of all it is still a P2P game, so the idea of having any cash shop crosses a line, even for me.  Then, there are people that feel F2P games with cash shops crosses their line, although I can buy it because it isn't a P2P game and has to generate revenue somehow.

Throw in that the next expansion may not make it Q2 or even Q3, and it is easy to see there is a shift of focuse from content, to cash shop items.  Even though Blizz is losing subs, they are making money from these items, and still can be a P2P game.  They have the best of both worlds. 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Bunks

When these guys put out statements, they intentionally make them nebulous and dual meaning just so it can sound better than it really is. Just like EA's doublespeak last week, the same sentence could mean half or double of what it sounded like.

The only thing they can't disguise is the money, and even that is all creative accounting. As my partner likes to say while sailing on his 52 foot boat often, how he could qualify for food stamps if we need more shrimp.

 

Haha so true. 

Very astutue points have already been brought up.

Between the marketing gimmick of the annual pass, and opening of Brazilian servers, they still had a net loss.  That is not stabilizing by any means.  They are wounded, but the bleeding has slowed down, but it has not been stopped.

In other words, the next quarter, where they are not opening up new servers or have an annual pass may see a larger net loss.  

Originally posted by ipeka
Originally posted by wildtalent

I for one don't have any problem with the idea of a panda race, but I think it's funny that it is clearly taken from Kung Fu Panda by the eastern feel of the thing and the fact they are adding a monk class. 

lets get this argument over ,

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbNSdwTazEo&feature=related

this is a link of warcraft 3 campaign gameplay and around the 4th minute you can see an NPC quest giver , YES , IT IS A PANDA .

If u decided to go further , you can play a panda as playable heros in human campaign .  Therefore your opinion is invalid .

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_Panda

"Although the concept of a "kung fu panda" has been around since at least 1993, work on the film did not begin until 2004"

Let me add that the idea of a Kung Fun Panda has existed before 1993. 

 

 

Originally posted by fivoroth
Originally posted by Hoplites
Originally posted by Lille7
Originally posted by Hoplites
 

That is not true at all. 

Murlocs, Ogres, Vrykul, Taunka, Arakkoa, Centaur, Furbolg, Ethereal, and Naga.

How can people be so naive to be believe Pandas was the most requested race to be playable when they were not even part of WoW?  

Pandaren have been there since Warcraft 3. Way before Arakkoas, Vrykul and Taunkas. From what I heard we got space aliens instead of Pandas for Burning Crusade :/

 

@ OP

People have been calling for classic servers since burning crusade :)

I was playing W3 when I was a freshmen in college, and I can safely say Pandaren were not an integral part of W3 as a race.

 

 

No one said they were an integral part of WC3 but they were there. They were one of the minor secondary not so significant races just as Murlocs, Ogres, Vrykul, Taunka, Arakkoa, Centaur, Furbolg, Ethereal, and Naga.

I hear people whine about how childish WoW's community it is and how pandas are for kids etc. Yet it is those people that come across as childish.

That argument that doesn't pass the mustard test.  Yes Michae Clayton will receive a Super Bowl ring but he did nothing to help with the Giants win the Super Bowl.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Lille7
Originally posted by Hoplites
 

That is not true at all. 

Murlocs, Ogres, Vrykul, Taunka, Arakkoa, Centaur, Furbolg, Ethereal, and Naga.

How can people be so naive to be believe Pandas was the most requested race to be playable when they were not even part of WoW?  

Pandaren have been there since Warcraft 3. Way before Arakkoas, Vrykul and Taunkas. From what I heard we got space aliens instead of Pandas for Burning Crusade :/

 

@ OP

People have been calling for classic servers since burning crusade :)

I was playing W3 when I was a freshmen in college, and I can safely say Pandaren were not an integral part of W3 as a race.

 

 

Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by Rusty715
But then I dont really believe all EU and NM players are going to leave, do you? Really?


Given that many of them have been begging for Pandaren to be added to the game for many years now, it is indeed certain that they're not all going to leave over it.

 

 

That is not true at all. 

Murlocs, Ogres, Vrykul, Taunka, Arakkoa, Centaur, Furbolg, Ethereal, and Naga.

How can people be so naive to be believe Pandas was the most requested race to be playable when they were not even part of WoW?  

Originally posted by itgrowls

while it is true that blizzard's next expansion is a year away and it's going to be just as boring i think we can now see that TOR didn't really get the mass exodus they were expecting simply because it's the same old boring combat and end-game model everyone's seen in WoW for 7 years now and in other games before that....combine this with serious problems in TOR and mismanagment and i think many people will be looking for the next big next gen mmo. three guesses what that will be hehe two words with a 2 at the end. :)

Q1 results will tell us a lot as to what has happened.

Originally posted by Teh_Axi

Well all I know is my server still has queues and there seems to be a big influx of fresh 85s recently.

SWTOR refugees I guess? 

Re-rolls from other servers.

On Emerald Dream most of the people that are new are from other servers, and well they want to see what world PVP looks like too. :P

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Subscriptions have been 15 bucks a month for almost a decade and in virtually every p2p and all freemium games you still get access to the entire game without a cash shop.  You just pay for expansions - the same as it has always been for almost all p2p games.

The living breathing worlds are still there, they are not even hidden.  Literally everything you did in EQ you can do in modern MMO's and a great many more things too.

It's just your perception, you need to take a break for awhile.  It happens to us all.

Venge

That sums up my position as well. 

I made an assumption back in Novemeber that WoW could stop the bleeding with the one year deal with Diablo and release of the newly opened Brazilian servers.  But now late in January there may be a chance they still end up with a net result of loss players despite those two points I brought up.  If, and that is a big if, that is true, that would be a huge problem for the WoW team.  Why?

1. Their major patch was released more than a month ago, and January is the slowest month of the year for a lot of business, including the entertainment industry.  As a result, when business starts to pick up in Spring what will they have in store to retain existing players?  At this point they should be more concerned with retaining existing players than trying to lure back players that left.

2.  MoP beta by earliest estimates will be open late spring/early summer.  Which reinforces point 1 that there is a huge gap until then to maintain player enthusiasm for this quarter.  

 

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