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All Posts by Nanfoodle

All Posts by Nanfoodle

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Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Octagon7711
Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp.  Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.

I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game.  Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality.  What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game?  If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already.  If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself.  Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.

Yup OP just making wind, nothing has changed, move along =-) Post from Mark kills all hope for me and CU. 

For me its all about teaming. I want the option to team even the solo content. If that content scales in challenge and reward you have me sold. I find more and more MMOs are driven to solo content and there is less and less reasons to team. There needs to be an extra reward to team even when you dont need to. Sick of playing MMOs where 90% of the people dont team. Last few MMOs I have played I have no reason to remember peoples names. 
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

For PvEers it will depend on how complex those systems are. How they tie in with killing NPC's and how fun that is. Will there be quests (Does not have to mean WoW style) Will there be enough PvE content it can fill many days worth of playing without the need to kill a player. I get you will always be at risk of being attacked but there are many ways to deal with that. I loved the dungeons in DAoC, lots of PvE but the best ones had a risk of running into the other factions. If the PvE has even 75% of the depth that DAoC had, I will be in 100%

Well, I certainly hope Mark Jacobs doesn't cave into the demands of the PvEer types out there.  If he caves even a little, it's a slippery slope.  Before long, it turns into a mixed bag mmo like WAR, ESO, etc.  Mediocre at everything, excelling at nothing.  For once, I would like to see a gaming company have the balls to put all of their focus on PvP without PvE.  You can find plenty of examples of PvE with a little PvP in the market already.  CSE doesn't stand a chance to go head-to-head with WoW when it comes to PvE, as far as I'm concerned.  It's all about the NICHE.  That's how a small company survives in this dog eat dog world of capitalism.  It needs to carve out a niche that none of the big boys are paying attention to.  And in the mmo world, that means PvP.  I'm cool with a complex crafting/building system, but I'm not cool with PvE experience treadmills sapping the energy out of PvP.

For me, I would like to see a true DAoC model. 66% PvP with 33% PvE thats awesome and open world. Where even the PvE leaves you at risk of PvP. DF is my fav PvE in DAoC. As a Minstrel I used to find a corner to hide in when we were about to lose control and I would Rogue it killing people doing PvE, small groups or 1-3 players. I cant remember the other dungeon where you started at each factions end and as you got closer to the center the better the loot but the center of the dungeon was each faction was working towards it as well. So the higher the risk of running into the other factions and being forced to RvR. I think that type of PvE is whats needed. Gives you the PvE break but also encourages PvP in the end. If they had the promise of that type of PvE, I would be there with my wallet in hand. 

Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Tablix

I love how all the uber pvp players have to take it to the forums and attack anyone that enjoys pve.  I play full loot games no issue, but the difference here is you CANT pvp without taking part in the PVE.  You cant respawn and run back to the fight, unless you got guildies doing that PVE crap for you, and guess what, they will need protecting.  

So many people posting here have NFI about how sandbox systems work.  PVP is there to consume the items the PVE players are crafting.  SOooo those uber guilds only after pvp will either chase off all PVE players destroying the game, or they learn to co-operate and help each other..... Lessons in life kids, you smack people too often soon enough it will screw YOUR life.

There is no running around in a set of armor for days on end, you will likely spend only 25% of your time engaging in pvp as the rest of the time you will be gathering stuff to replace the things you lost for been a noob.  

 

You want constant PVP, this game will not be for you.  You want constant PVE this game wont be for you.  This is a game for people that enjoy risk and reward.

I think we have a different definition of "PvE".  To me, crafting and building things is NOT PvE.  PvE is when you fight (farm, really) dumb, static npc creatures for experience like in 99.99999% of the MMOs out there.  I don't plan to PvP 100% of the time, either.  I will do plenty of crafting and building things whenever I'm burnt out from straight pvp.  But again, that is NOT PvE.  That's more like PwP (Playing with the Environment).

That would be called PvE =-) Where the challenge comes from the world not a player. 

You can bend the definition your way all you want, but you're only going to forever get yourself in fights with PvPer types since the common interpretation of PvE means fighting/farming npc mobs.  I'm willing to bet the vast majority of PvPers don't mind the crafting/building system that Mark Jacobs is suggesting.  I certainly don't have issue with it.

For PvEers it will depend on how complex those systems are. How they tie in with killing NPC's and how fun that is. Will there be quests (Does not have to mean WoW style) Will there be enough PvE content it can fill many days worth of playing without the need to kill a player. I get you will always be at risk of being attacked but there are many ways to deal with that. I loved the dungeons in DAoC, lots of PvE but the best ones had a risk of running into the other factions. If the PvE has even 75% of the depth that DAoC had, I will be in 100%

Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Tablix

I love how all the uber pvp players have to take it to the forums and attack anyone that enjoys pve.  I play full loot games no issue, but the difference here is you CANT pvp without taking part in the PVE.  You cant respawn and run back to the fight, unless you got guildies doing that PVE crap for you, and guess what, they will need protecting.  

So many people posting here have NFI about how sandbox systems work.  PVP is there to consume the items the PVE players are crafting.  SOooo those uber guilds only after pvp will either chase off all PVE players destroying the game, or they learn to co-operate and help each other..... Lessons in life kids, you smack people too often soon enough it will screw YOUR life.

There is no running around in a set of armor for days on end, you will likely spend only 25% of your time engaging in pvp as the rest of the time you will be gathering stuff to replace the things you lost for been a noob.  

 

You want constant PVP, this game will not be for you.  You want constant PVE this game wont be for you.  This is a game for people that enjoy risk and reward.

I think we have a different definition of "PvE".  To me, crafting and building things is NOT PvE.  PvE is when you fight (farm, really) dumb, static npc creatures for experience like in 99.99999% of the MMOs out there.  I don't plan to PvP 100% of the time, either.  I will do plenty of crafting and building things whenever I'm burnt out from straight pvp.  But again, that is NOT PvE.  That's more like PwP (Playing with the Environment).

That would be called PvE =-) Where the challenge comes from the world not a player. 

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by Jatar

One of our goals was to create a world that cannot be explored fully.  As in all areas of the game design, we looked at what frustrated us as players, or made us leave the game eventually, and looked for ways to solve these issues.  One of those areas was exploration, and how most MMO games can be fully explored in a short amount of time.   Their worlds are just too small.

So we set out to make a world so big it can't be explored by one person.  We decided to build a world the full size of Earth.  We choose that size simply because it was easier to understand than something else.  Players can picture Earth, and think about how long it would take them, on foot or horse back, to just explore the area around where the live, let alone the whole country, or continent, or entire world.

But most game engines weren't built to create terrain that size.  They use modeled terrain, built by artists.  We had to create technology that can procedurally generate planets.  But even that isn't enough (and in fact, other companies have been working on this as well in recent years).  We wanted the planet to be realistically generated.  This has involved a lot of work (that R&D I mentioned).  We first created a tool to let us create continent layouts, they figured out temperatures based on many things, like latitude, slope, shade, weather patterns, etc.  We soil typed the world to many different types of ground, and then wrote wind, water and gravity erosion simulations.  The water erosion washes sediments down as it creates rivers, lakes and fills oceans.  Those sediments wash according to their soil types (rock less than sand, etc.).  

That gives us a planet with nicely and realistically eroded terrain, with millions of years of this (including weather pattern changes over time), but it has no plants.  We then wrote a plant growing system that uses seeds and distributes them based on soil type, and then grows all the plants, making every tree and bush, etc. unique.  As a side benefit, these can continue to grow over time as the game world progresses.

But this is a fantasy game, so we also wrote a system where we can hand make terrain shapes, or hand edit the terrain that was generated.  After these shapes or edits are done, the entire erosion system is re-run to incorporate those changes into the terrain system.

To show all this detail we also had to create new methods of rendering, and created a hybrid system that renders the world close up in polygon, with high res texture detail, and transitions through voxels and point cloud rendering the further away you get.  This was done to give the game the highest possible level of detail close up, and yet let you look out from a mountain across the world.  

None of this was easy.  And it has taken many years to perfect.  However, we will be showing some of this off fairly soon, (within this year).   This terrain system has gone through three iterations, the last of which is part of the DX11 / 64 bit upgrade we did recently.

With this world, and the way it is generated, there are places in the world that no one will have ever seen (not even us).  It means that a player can go exploring and not only constantly find things they have never seen, but possibly find things that no one has seen.  You will not need to take our word for this, the fact is that it exists now, though we will continue to work on adding biomes over time.  It will eventually release it for players to enjoy, with the first looks of the third version coming soon.  You can watch a version of the second iteration of the terrain right now, we did a fly over of that version and posted it on our Facebook page, but the new version is coming soon.  

What is the value of an MMO that builds such a large world that doesn't contain castles, towns and actual points of interest to the player?  It sounds like you focused a lot of energy on building a tech demo.

Its kinda like a body builder in a gym working out to get bigger to be able to lift bigger weights, so he can get bigger to lift bigger weights. I respect more the guy working out so he can rock climb or live healthy. Their is a point to what he is doing. What is the point of having a world this big? What are they going to do with it that makes player have to and want to explore it? How will you deal with a play space that big so that players dont feel like that are alone when maybe 10'000 people are online?

Originally posted by collekt
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by burdock2
You do all realise that Dark Age of Camelot has PvE? With PvE quests and story, and since this game is essentialy the successor to DAoC - why not have PvE? You have all these wonderful races, but no lore or purpose for being "except to fight the other realm", gets boring fast. If this is supposed to be an immersive MMO , then you NEED pve for the downtime and for people to want to keep logging in. They need a cheaper Collectors edition and PVE and I would have pledged day one.

Fully agree.  A PVP only game is essentially a shooter.  And while those can be fun, there is a faster burnout time.

PvE has a WAY faster burnout time for me. You do a raid or whatever one time and you know what to expect every single time you do it. That's extremely boring. PvP has variation and less predictability. It's much more entertaining to outplay a real person than to step through the exact same fight to beat an encounter over and over and over.

For me its when I spend to much time doing the same content. If all I have to do in a game is PvP I soon feel the need to kick back and relax doing some PvE. If all I do is PvE I soon feel the need to get some on the edge of my seat action. Both are great but IMO one a game focuses on just one area the greater chance people will burn out. If CU is really going to have PvE, it better be something really fun to play and content that will make PvEer enjoy it so much, they are willing to take the risk of getting attacked. Or make the reward so huge, PvPers will come protect the PvEers as they do their thing. 

I have to admit I walked away and have not looked back after I read the "No PvE" statement. To get me to look into this game now, I would need to see how much effort is being put into PvE. Or is it something tacked on at the end like most PvE games do with PvP. DAoC had a very rich open world PvE game, one that still holds many fond memories for me. For now, I will put this game back on my radar till I see what plans they have for PvE.
Is this a FFA loot game? Will it have PvP and PvE servers? 
Originally posted by Jatar
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Jatar
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"Currently, the developers of CoS (MMO Magic) have an extreme prototype of CoS.  This means that the overall gameplay is near complete, and the game is fully playable. Although, this does not mean it is ready for release.  Things like art and the leveling system (and several other things) are still being worked on."  - Mike's CoS FAQ , July 2008

 

How far along from the extreme prototype would you say CoS is now, and is development rolling along faster than expected, slower than expected, or just as planned?

 

 

 

Definitely slower than expected.  Unfortunately, this comes along with doing a lot of R&D, then writing a new engine to make use of that R&D.  We have had to (our choice) create new technology in order to achieve all the goals of our original design.  

Now, I've talked about this before, but in brief, ten years or more seems like a long time, and it is in some ways, but in terms of development time, based on a small team, it isn't all that long.  Major MMOs started by major publishers often have teams of up to 500.  Even if they only had 300 if you compare that to our team of around 30, we are only one year into development compared to a full size team.

So even though we are only a short way into this game as measured in man hours, ten years is also a long time if measured in other ways, like how fast technology moves.  In our case, in the beginning we were using an innovative new engine, but with a small team it took too long, and technology advanced beyond what we had.  Six month ago we were getting ready to show the demo to publishers, but decided to wait on  a new version of our engine to bring it up to, and in some places, past current technology, in other words, visually the game was dated and we needed to catch back up.

The new engine upgraded us to DX11 and 64 bit, and came with an entirely new renderer, while also replacing much of the other code.  Now we have a new physically based renderer, and a new hybrid polygon/voxel/point cloud engine that can do amazing detail close up and yet let you look out over vast vistas, without killing your frame rate.  The engine did keep some things, but these were elements like our wind, water, gravity erosion systems, and a lot of the tool sets for building our unique game play, as well as our A.I. net and Event systems, though even those had to be upgraded to DX11 and 64 bit.

In the end, we feel it has been worth the extra six months to give the game a better 'look', though this is still ongoing as the last of the new modules are just coming online.  This is what we are waiting for before we release some new movies of Citadel of Sorcery.

What is so R&D about your game? When someone says their game has R&D this makes me as a gamer listen, so please what are you working on?

One of our goals was to create a world that cannot be explored fully.  As in all areas of the game design, we looked at what frustrated us as players, or made us leave the game eventually, and looked for ways to solve these issues.  One of those areas was exploration, and how most MMO games can be fully explored in a short amount of time.   Their worlds are just too small.

So we set out to make a world so big it can't be explored by one person.  We decided to build a world the full size of Earth.  We choose that size simply because it was easier to understand than something else.  Players can picture Earth, and think about how long it would take them, on foot or horse back, to just explore the area around where the live, let alone the whole country, or continent, or entire world.

But most game engines weren't built to create terrain that size.  They use modeled terrain, built by artists.  We had to create technology that can procedurally generate planets.  But even that isn't enough (and in fact, other companies have been working on this as well in recent years).  We wanted the planet to be realistically generated.  This has involved a lot of work (that R&D I mentioned).  We first created a tool to let us create continent layouts, they figured out temperatures based on many things, like latitude, slope, shade, weather patterns, etc.  We soil typed the world to many different types of ground, and then wrote wind, water and gravity erosion simulations.  The water erosion washes sediments down as it creates rivers, lakes and fills oceans.  Those sediments wash according to their soil types (rock less than sand, etc.).  

That gives us a planet with nicely and realistically eroded terrain, with millions of years of this (including weather pattern changes over time), but it has no plants.  We then wrote a plant growing system that uses seeds and distributes them based on soil type, and then grows all the plants, making every tree and bush, etc. unique.  As a side benefit, these can continue to grow over time as the game world progresses.

But this is a fantasy game, so we also wrote a system where we can hand make terrain shapes, or hand edit the terrain that was generated.  After these shapes or edits are done, the entire erosion system is re-run to incorporate those changes into the terrain system.

To show all this detail we also had to create new methods of rendering, and created a hybrid system that renders the world close up in polygon, with high res texture detail, and transitions through voxels and point cloud rendering the further away you get.  This was done to give the game the highest possible level of detail close up, and yet let you look out from a mountain across the world.  

None of this was easy.  And it has taken many years to perfect.  However, we will be showing some of this off fairly soon, (within this year).   This terrain system has gone through three iterations, the last of which is part of the DX11 / 64 bit upgrade we did recently.

With this world, and the way it is generated, there are places in the world that no one will have ever seen (not even us).  It means that a player can go exploring and not only constantly find things they have never seen, but possibly find things that no one has seen.  You will not need to take our word for this, the fact is that it exists now, though we will continue to work on adding biomes over time.  It will eventually release it for players to enjoy, with the first looks of the third version coming soon.  You can watch a version of the second iteration of the terrain right now, we did a fly over of that version and posted it on our Facebook page, but the new version is coming soon.  

Thats a huge undertaking. Makes me wonder how you will address content. Something as simple as dungeons, how will you make sure every square miles has enough content to make people want to play, or test the dungeons to make sure they are worth playing?

With a world that big how will you address travel? You want people to see your world but when you have a world that big being able to get to friends to play with them will create problems. Make world travel easy and they dont see your world, so why bother making it. Or make travel hard and people get mad because they have a hard time hooking up with their friends. How will you address that?

This is becoming common with MMOs now. ANet took me 3 weeks and many emails to resolve my GW2 problem. FF was 2 weeks (but that was shortly after launch) Blizzard 4-5 days. Seems you dont need good customer service any more to run an MMO. Heck you cant even call for help any more with DGC (SoE) or Blizzard as they have closed their call centers. For the amount of money these games make its sad to see you cant talk to a person any more.
Originally posted by Jatar
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"Currently, the developers of CoS (MMO Magic) have an extreme prototype of CoS.  This means that the overall gameplay is near complete, and the game is fully playable. Although, this does not mean it is ready for release.  Things like art and the leveling system (and several other things) are still being worked on."  - Mike's CoS FAQ , July 2008

 

How far along from the extreme prototype would you say CoS is now, and is development rolling along faster than expected, slower than expected, or just as planned?

 

 

 

Definitely slower than expected.  Unfortunately, this comes along with doing a lot of R&D, then writing a new engine to make use of that R&D.  We have had to (our choice) create new technology in order to achieve all the goals of our original design.  

Now, I've talked about this before, but in brief, ten years or more seems like a long time, and it is in some ways, but in terms of development time, based on a small team, it isn't all that long.  Major MMOs started by major publishers often have teams of up to 500.  Even if they only had 300 if you compare that to our team of around 30, we are only one year into development compared to a full size team.

So even though we are only a short way into this game as measured in man hours, ten years is also a long time if measured in other ways, like how fast technology moves.  In our case, in the beginning we were using an innovative new engine, but with a small team it took too long, and technology advanced beyond what we had.  Six month ago we were getting ready to show the demo to publishers, but decided to wait on  a new version of our engine to bring it up to, and in some places, past current technology, in other words, visually the game was dated and we needed to catch back up.

The new engine upgraded us to DX11 and 64 bit, and came with an entirely new renderer, while also replacing much of the other code.  Now we have a new physically based renderer, and a new hybrid polygon/voxel/point cloud engine that can do amazing detail close up and yet let you look out over vast vistas, without killing your frame rate.  The engine did keep some things, but these were elements like our wind, water, gravity erosion systems, and a lot of the tool sets for building our unique game play, as well as our A.I. net and Event systems, though even those had to be upgraded to DX11 and 64 bit.

In the end, we feel it has been worth the extra six months to give the game a better 'look', though this is still ongoing as the last of the new modules are just coming online.  This is what we are waiting for before we release some new movies of Citadel of Sorcery.

What is so R&D about your game? When someone says their game has R&D this makes me as a gamer listen, so please what are you working on?

Originally posted by klemmbob

I'm surprised how many die hard fans this game has when it's going to crash and burn miserably. Quote this and argue all you want, I'll come back in a month or two and read through them and quote with a "told ya so" when your shit money grab game is dead. Wouldn't be surprised to hear about the servers just randomly being taken offline with no announcement.

The MMO industry sucks ass these days due to games like this trash and the people that throw money at promises. 

 

Sadly Skyforge is more MMO then many triple A MMOs I have played as of late. Like ESO where so much content forced you to play solo. Open world quests where you could not help each other due to heavy phasing. My wife and I were bashing our heads trying to play together. With Skyforge not only were we able to play together for every bit of the game, you got rewarded for doing so. Mission scaling, making the mission fun to play but also rewarding us for the added challenge. Sure this game is instanced and designed with play sessions of 20-40 min in mind. But they got something right more and more MMOs are getting wrong, Skyfore is about playing with people. Dont get me wrong you can solo but the real fun is teaming. Even their PvP events tie the PvEers and PvPers together. Thats a big reason they win my business and money. So go ahead and quote me in 3 months, my bet is you will be so wrong!!!!

Since Rift I am having a hard time playing MMOs that lock me into 1 role as well. I loved being able to switch to tank, DPS and support on one char. EQN is on my radar for the same reason, freedom in my chars skills and abilities. I think this will always be something I look for in my MMOs going forward. TWS system is awesome, for me it was Rift. 
Originally posted by Khebeln
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Siphaed

Or don't.  ....

 

because the game is bland.  The 'action combat' is nothing of the sort and is a joke to even say so.   The grind is real.  The game is heavily instanced.  Hmm...not sure I need to go on.  The 5 minutes of novelty this game provides is just that: 5 minutes of novelty. 

 

In the first few rounds on CB there was a lot of grind. So little of the maps were in the game that if you wanted to unlock classes you need to replay content. The game is so much larger now. As for Bland, that would be for anyone that didnt bother getting past 1000 prestige. Invite 1-2 people to do your solo quest and they scale. Bosses are not tank and spank and only outside of raid bosses did I see so much depth in an MMO boss fights. Get in and play 20-40 min and get out and have a blast. This really is the working mans MMO. This is will be my summer MMO and as a MMO vet, I cant wait to start playing OB.

Exactly what he said >>>

:)

 

Nope, he said general statements, I added context.

Originally posted by Siphaed

Or don't.  ....

 

because the game is bland.  The 'action combat' is nothing of the sort and is a joke to even say so.   The grind is real.  The game is heavily instanced.  Hmm...not sure I need to go on.  The 5 minutes of novelty this game provides is just that: 5 minutes of novelty. 

 

In the first few rounds on CB there was a lot of grind. So little of the maps were in the game that if you wanted to unlock classes you need to replay content. The game is so much larger now. As for Bland, that would be for anyone that didnt bother getting past 1000 prestige. Invite 1-2 people to do your solo quest and they scale. Bosses are not tank and spank and only outside of raid bosses did I see so much depth in an MMO boss fights. Get in and play 20-40 min and get out and have a blast. This really is the working mans MMO. This is will be my summer MMO and as a MMO vet, I cant wait to start playing OB.

Will be there with bells on, downloading update now =-)
Swear gamers today are cry babies. They cry when Alpha testing, the bitch during beta testing and now we are upset a stress test was unplayable????? If they are, the point of a stress test is to try and make the server crash. To find their breaking point. This is why we cant have nice things, to many gamers are wimps, cry babies and overall twits. 
This has saved my summer :)
Originally posted by quixadhal

I don't think it's vaporware, but I have serous doubts about it being anything a fan of Everquest or EQ2 will want to play.

 

From what I've seen so far, it looks like EQNext will be a voxel based minecraft with procedural areas to run around killing things, and some handful of professionally done questlines... with more emphasis on player created junk.

 

In other words, the lazy way to produce a game... make the players build it.  This works in sandbox games like EVE-Online, but I don't think it will feel anything like Everquest.

 

Funny you say that but their goal is to make the largest sandbox game ever made lol They said they have a game for EQ1 and EQ2 gamers, its EQ1 and EQ2. They are building a game for new fans or people who are ready for something different. No one knows if they will be able to pull this off but DGC seems to want to try. On that note I remember when Star Trek made Enterprise the last Star Trek series. They said the same thing, making a show for new fans, not for the ones who have been with them forever. That didnt turn out well. IMO I think this game would do better if it followed the old school trinity, Tank, CC, Support but I will judge when I play it.

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