You know its kind of funny.  I already posted in this thread that I like the voice overs but after  Igot horribly horribly bored of SWTOR about 2 weeks ago I started playing text based MUDs again.

So I guess must not matter that much.

Actually SWTOR's mob difficulty is not static.  Things get harder and harder as you level.  Encounters that were pretty easy at 20 can leave you with 50% or even 25% health at level 40.

There are actually quite a few dark/light choices which will decide whether or not you fight or don't fight.  There is also a case on Alderaan for the Inquisitor in which if you choose the dark side choice and don't help your imperial contact you actually lose out on a quest and get everyone pissed off at you.

The most fanatical and robotic are the people who AREN'T paid.

They are called useful fools.

Some people always seem to belive there must be some kind of centralized authority or coordination for these sorts of things.  There really does not.  Just because they are fools doesn't mean they are stupid.  And just because they are saying similar things doesn't mean they need to compare notes.  Fish don't swim in schools because some big fish is telling them how to.

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

In terms of content?  Hell yeah they should be "forgiven" for not having multiple zones for every level during the questing process.  You're kidding, right?  No game in the history of MMOs has ever been released with tons of alternative content available at every level of the process unless it was a specific design choice by the game, in which case we probably aren't talking about a themepark game anyway.  

WoW didn't have it.

Lotro didn't have it.

Aion didn't have it.

Conan didn't have it.  

Rift STILL doesn't have it.

But we're gonna trash TOR for not releasing with enough alternative levelling zones because they should have learned from all the others who have never done it?  Silly argument.

 WoW didn't have alternative leveling zones huh?  Well this is news to me.  I think this argument is going in circles because no concrete examples have been offered.  Let me fix that.

First, I'm going to list the "leveling path" for a faction ambiguous SWTOR character.  In other words, I will list all of the possible zones that you can level in with any character in the order that you will visit them.  The zones will be separated by slashes.  Then I will do the same for WoW...

SWToR:

 1. orriban / Hutta / Tython / Ord Mantell

2. Dromund Kass / Coruscant

3. Balmorra (Empire) / Taris (Republic)

4. Nar Shaddaa

5. Tatooine

6. Alderaan

7. Taris (Empire) / Balmorra (Republic)

8. Quest

9. Hoth

10. Belsavis

11. Voss

12. Corellia

13. Ilum

Vanilla WoW:

The zones don't end and begin at exact level ranges like SWTOR, so I have to list them by level ranges in order to make sense...

1-10:  Dun Morogh / Durotar / Elwynn Forest / Mulgore / Teldrassil / Tirisfal Glades

10-20:  Darkshore / Loch Modan / Silverpine Forest / Westfall

10-25:  Barrens

15-25:  Redridge Mountains

15-27:  Stonetalon Mountains

18-30:  Ashenvale / Duskwood

20-30:  Hillsbrad / Wetlands

25-35:  Thousand Needles

30-40:  Alterac Mountains / Arathi Highlands / Desolace

30-45:  Stranglethorn Vale

35-45:  Dustwallow Marsh / Badlands / Swamp of Sorrows

40-50:  Feralas / Hinterlands / Tanaris

45-50:  Searing Gorge

45-55:  Azshara / Blasted Lands

48-55:  Un'goro Crater / Felwood

50-58:  Burning Steppes

51-58:  Western Plaguelands

53-60:  Eastern Plaguelands / Winterspring

55-60:  Deadwind Pass / Silithus

 

It should be pretty obvious from these lists which game has a more linear level experience.  In SWTOR, you have absolutely ZERO choice in where to level at several points in your leveling process (unless you grind FP's or PvP).  In WoW, there is never a single point in leveling where you don't have a choice of where to go.

Thank you, Creslin.  It is this very list that PROVES the points in this thread about SWTOR and why the replayability is not good in it.  It's also the main reason I think these MMORPGs post WoW have been failing.  The ones just slipping by either added new paths to leveling, i.e LOTRO and EQ2 or have dynamic content to help one through i.e. Rift.

AoC, Aion, STO, CO, SWTOR etc. besides not having open seamless worlds, are very limited in leveling choices thereby making them feel very shallow and not "massive".

People hated Lonelands when LOTRO first came out and they felt shunted into it making even more hated.

Not conincidentally many people never got past level 20 (ie. the time you got to lonelands) or so then said the game sucked and was really boring.

Even more interesting is the LOTRO fanboys gave the same excuses.  Run instances newb. 

Now LOTRO has skirmishes AND revamped their leveling so that Lonelands is one of two zone options and those options involved zones which are considerably larger and more open than SWTOR zones.  Don't get me wrong SWTOR can make you run for quite a long time across a zone, its just always the same narrow path for the most part.

Fanboys always whistle past the graveyard on this sort of stuff.  But it clearly quite important in the history of MMOs.  Its not as bad in SWTOR as it was a number of years ago in LOTRO.  But many people hate tatooine and very few people feel like they can skip a planet because they have no desire to grind "alternative content". 

In general people actually try to play the way they want to play and there are reasons quests are a major feature of the game.  Ignore that at your peril or your game's peril.

I like the voice acting and I think the dialog choices add alot to the game.

You would need to give me fairly decent estimates of what they could have delivered instead and it would need to be pretty good to convince me it was a bad idea.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by udon

 

The game has many times more replayability than any other MMO I have played on release day.  If you don't want to do the quests over again than don't.  Do instances, group quests, space combat or PVP and you will level quickly doing any of those.  And if all that isn't enough go play the other faction and get a 100% new set of quests.

Honestly what more would it have taken to keep you from complaining?  Because I have a hard time seeing any game company releasing a new MMO with more content than what SW:TOR has today.  It's hands above what EQ2, WoW, LOTR, etc. had at launch.

I feel the same way. If I don't feel like doing the storyline then there is always the side quests. If I don't feel like going solo then I do heroics and flashpoints with others.If I don't feel like doing that then I PVP. If I don't feel like doing that then I do some space. If I don't feel like doing that then I explore for datacrons and resources. Plus there is my alts. I've had no trouble finding something to do in this game.

How many different PvP maps are there?  How many different PvP game types are there?

Not many.  When you are gaining significant XP via PvP.  You are grinding the same content over and over.

Now you may like it.  You may get an adrenaline rush from SWTOR's bad PvP and not feel like its a grind.

But its the same thing over and over.  There is no way around that.

Of course you can always find something to do in SWTOR.  It just happens to be the same canned stuff over and over.

Seriously the whole group content Heroics canard is kind of sad.  Do people realize that many herorics are simply one large room with 4 -6 spawns and a champion mob?  Or just clearing out an area you could run across in 30 seconds?  

Originally posted by leojreimroc

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

snip

I have never ever played a AAA mmo that had this bland planet design or had such heavily phased linear zones. It does'nt take much to make it show the dev's put some work into the zones and I don't get the feeling in this game at all

I completely disagree, to me TOR's planets actually look as though an artist designed them, compared to so many games that use copy and pasted terrain over and over again.

I agree with you here.  I think the zones are really well designed.  However, the npcs and mobs inside them are a bit too stagnant for my taste however.  This is not a dealbreaker for me by any stretch, but it is something that I would like to see improved.  More life to the world would be great.

To respond to the OP.  I'm on my 4th alt right now.  On my first char, I almost had to skip entire planets because I was outleveling content.  I skipped most of the bonus content.  I also skipped most of Alderaan, Nar Shadaa Belsavis and a lot of Hoth.  Now on my alts, I won't skip these planets, I will skip those that I've already done.  There's so much content that for me, it's going to take at least 2 alts (probably 3) to see it all.  This is in 1 faction only.  It will take another 2-3 chars to see all the content in the other faction.

Thre are only 3 ways to have skipped that much content.

Either you did alot of PvP instances, re-runnung the same heroic dailies, or you did alot of PvE instances.  or some combination of these.

I guarantee you did not skip any planet by doing normal quests + space + class quests.

I don't see how having a bland and grindy first play through qualifies as "good replayability".  And this is the only thing I have ever seen anybody with the pro-good replayable viewpoint attempt to say.

Basically the argument boils down to "do dailies/repeatable content to level, most of which is the same instance over and over" and then you won't have down the meagre and completely linear quest offering.

Good replayability doesn't mean you can keep doing it.  It means its fun to do that stuff a second time.  Doing the quest route a second is not different. Its exactly the same up to a factor of about 90% regardless of class.

You can level to 50 and never do a quest.  I stated that in my OP.  You can do with just instanced content.  So what?  That is not good replaybility either.  That called grinding.

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by DJJazzy

So you repeat quests and that makes it different than all of the other mmos how?

the fact that they designed the planets to be so linear so phased so uninspired you have no desire to actually go through them multiple times/

Right because all other MMO content is so insprired?

 

Almost all other mmos have better zone design. Rift was very well designed, and LOTRO is pratically epic in scale compared to the dirt quarries that make up most of ToR.

Hmm, I thought Rift felt pretty corridor like as well. I agree about LotRO though.

Rift certainly leads along things.  There is mostly a road to follow that goes to the next hub.  But Rift also had FAR FAR more open space than a SWTOR zone and put rifts into that space.  In addition there is more diversification between the zones in higher levels.  

In Rift you could go from quest hub to quest hub and be fine and play the game that way.  You could also go all over the place and do various novel things in that same zone.   In SWTOR you can't NOT go from quest hub to quest hub.  Its almost impossible.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by DJJazzy

So you repeat quests and that makes it different than all of the other mmos how?

the fact that they designed the planets to be so linear so phased so uninspired you have no desire to actually go through them multiple times/

Right because all other MMO content is so insprired?

I have never ever played a AAA mmo that had this bland planet design or had such heavily phased linear zones. It does'nt take much to make it show the dev's put some work into the zones and I don't get the feeling in this game at all

I completely disagree, to me TOR's planets actually look as though an artist designed them, compared to so many games that use copy and pasted terrain over and over again.

Some of the look of parts of the planets are good.  I rather like the background mountains on Aldaraan.  But the feel of the zones is often pretty meh.

There is a reason people talk about "look and feel" of an application.  I don't find the "look" of SWTOR zone to be bad (I am sure some do as its highly subjective) but the feel starts to get INCREDIBLY bland.  Painfully so.

Seriously by the time I did dromund kaas the 3rd time I could have written a bot to do it all for me and that would be able to play every other persons character on the server and that bot would have behaved 90% to same as most players simply because there are no real options outside of datacron hunting strange paths.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by DJJazzy

So you repeat quests and that makes it different than all of the other mmos how?

the fact that they designed the planets to be so linear so phased so uninspired you have no desire to actually go through them multiple times/

Right because all other MMO content is so insprired?

Actually yes.

There are zones in many MMOs that many people find extremely likeable and inspiring.  The Shire in LOTRO is great example, but there are a number of others.  I rarely got that feeling in any SWTOR zone.  And zome planets people down right hate, like Taris.

The only thing I particularly like about any of the SWTOR zones besides Hoth which I somewhat like for no particular reason, is the datacron hunting.

I bet you a beer you could get a pretty good list going if you made a thread of MMORPG zone people found inspiring and  I bet you, you would get double the results from LOTRO, WOW, and Vanguard that you did from SWTOR.  Or least if you did it a year from when all the fanbois have lost their ardor.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Originally posted by Distopia

At 40, I've not done more than 5 (maybe less) side-quests (non-class) through my journey thus far. Haven't done a single FP either, I have plenty of content left for a second play-through. Did this on purpose BTW as I wanted to save content for a second play-through if I was bored once I hit cap.

One thing I do wish was that pvp gave more experience. It's quite a grind if you try to level just by pvping.

Yeah it's taking a while, a little over a month leveling this way, as I've been switching it up between PVP, daily quests (PVP/space) and doing class quests. I have no complaints about it though, I've had fun.

Class quests will give roughly 10-15% of an xp bar per level.  Doing the rest via repeatables is an incredible grind without PvP.  You would need to grind the same two flashpoint 4-5 time per level for probably about 3 levels.

Doing it via PvP would be an incredible grind for people who do not think SWTOR PvP is very good or who do not like PvP at all.

Isn't it claimed by most people that SWTOR's main selling point is that its a great PvE game?

Originally posted by Moaky07

I dont understand why if the OP was going to make alts, at least one of them wasnt the opposite faction.

 

That would open ya up to the opposite sides flashpoints.

 

Oh well....maybe a RP thing with them. Although I prefer being the good guy, and spend more time on my republic chars, I still get my empire kick on as well.

 I also have two republic characters

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by udon

 

The game has many times more replayability than any other MMO I have played on release day.  If you don't want to do the quests over again than don't.  Do instances, group quests, space combat or PVP and you will level quickly doing any of those.  And if all that isn't enough go play the other faction and get a 100% new set of quests.

Honestly what more would it have taken to keep you from complaining?  Because I have a hard time seeing any game company releasing a new MMO with more content than what SW:TOR has today.  It's hands above what EQ2, WoW, LOTR, etc. had at launch.

its not always about just the content.. its about making the content that's their enjoyable ot play through many times.. to me the planets were just so dull, boring, and so heavily phased going through them multiple times felt like a chore. 

I have played a large number of MMO's on launch day and for me anyways SW:TOR is the first one that I accually was able to level mulitple toons though the content without giving up halfway though the second toon.  I have 2 level 50's and 2 mid 20's right now, all empire and am still enjoying the experience.  Although I will say that I am spending a lot more time doing instances, PVP and space combat on my 20's so I can pick and choose what planets I spend time on.  

Some planets I like a lot more than others but I am also pretty sure if someone did a poll of favorite planets the results would be pretty even so I'm not going to hold it against Bioware for trying to make the planets feel different.

Dude, in order to "pick and choose what planet I do".  You have to literally grind an ass ton of non-quest stuff.  Each planet is roughly 3-5 levels (although quesh is very brief in comparison).

PvP in SWTOR is awful, IMO.  Also many people do not even like PvP in general.  Acting like that is a sufficient answer is BS.

Anyone claiming they are doing significantly leveling through space combat is doing tons and tons of missions.  The repeatables do not give the same xp as the initial mission.  There are only about 6 unique missions by level 35.  Completely one space mission the first time give similar XP to 1 quest.  1 quest.

In addition to that, I did all the space mission on my character so the progression I mentioned in my first post is with Space Combat in cluded but not grinded.  And grinding space missions is terrible xp.

In SWTOR when you first leave Dromund Kass on your class quest you given a fake choice between two planets to continue your class quest.  One planet is a level 16 quest the other planet is a level 20 quest.  There is no choice they just give you two quests to make it appear as if it worked like KOTOR games.  Then they completely discard the BS illusion after that and your class quest is completely linear is both appearance and function rather than just function.

Anyone not griding instances and mostly leveling by quests. Is not skipping any planet.  And griding instances IS NOT A FRESH  experience.

The only way you can make this fantasy work is by claiming that grinding the same thing over and over = replayability.  Its BS.

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by gestalt11

There was some debate before the game released about how replayable the game is, ie. by my definition how fresh and interesting a second or third character is.

 

I have played 4 characters past level 20 on the same faction.  I have played to characters past level 30 and one past level 40.

 

The replaybability is terrible especially if your first character was a stealth class that can skip fights.  Every single character will wind up doing the exact same quests in the same area almsot 90% of the content will be shared extactly the same.  The only 10% difference is the class quests of which you will do roughly 1-2 per level after leve 15 o 16.

 

If you solo the game and stealth past some fight you must do almost every single quests that exists.  If you solo and don't skip you will need to do about 90% of the quests.

Obviously if you grind instances you may do less or possibly none at all.

 

The only variation that exists is in light/dark side choices/companion reactions.  And in the end simply by playing one light side and one dark side you have basically seen all there is to see except the small portion of quests that is the class quest (which is far too slow to develop to justify griding through the same quests a third time).  Compaion reaction is novel and all but in the end only matter from a roleplaying perspective anyway as gifts is the way to go if you have seen it all before.  And frankly that is extremely meager picking unless you are really into the role play part.

The game has many times more replayability than any other MMO I have played on release day.  If you don't want to do the quests over again than don't.  Do instances, group quests, space combat or PVP and you will level quickly doing any of those.  And if all that isn't enough go play the other faction and get a 100% new set of quests.

Honestly what more would it have taken to keep you from complaining?  Because I have a hard time seeing any game company releasing a new MMO with more content than what SW:TOR has today.  It's hands above what EQ2, WoW, LOTR, etc. had at launch.

I don't know how to say this without sounding like I am flaming you, but:

What planet are you living on?  LOTRO, EQ2 and WoW all had far more PvE replyability at launch.  I don't even really like any of those games all that much.   I certainly could not play them again for a couple months right now, really.  Have you ever tried to do all the quests in the shire alone?  The Shire alone has more to do than all of dromund kass, korriban, tython and corsuscant combined.  Then add in that LOTRO has two other starting areas as well and I am just astounded anyone can say this sort of stuff with the text equivalent of a straight face.

I have never played an MMO where starting a new character was so stiltingly the same.  And losing Sprint is terrible, going back to the slow run and running around Dromond Kaas's capital in slow motion over vast pointless empty spaces just because the taxi lines don't connect is not fun either.  Being forced back to dromund kass at level 30 just to do the stupidl same trip I have seen over and over but now I can do at a brisk 30 mph speeder, yeah it amazing.

Egad and the arrow in the knee jokes any time you mention losing sprint.  80% of the player base thinks the design decision of giving sprint at level 14 is a horribly bad joke.  "You sir are a badass Sith who can fly through the air at 60 mph over short distance and um but don't try to do more than a jog we wouldn't want you to strain yourself".

I don't actually rate games on this site and so have not voted for SWTOR in any manner beyond a few forum polls.

However after perusing the list of games I can say with alot of confidence that almost all of them have much richer and broader worlds to explore and far more choice and richer choices when it comes to playstyle.

Now SWTOR adds a few nice bells and whistles and I reall do rather enjoy the quest dialog interaction.  But beyond that yes I really can see alot of those games as ranked better.

I mean seriously take a look at how stats work in the game.  Once you choose to be a Jedi the Aim and Cunning stats should just completely disappear.  Why are they even on your character.  They actually change the effects of your main stat when you specialize just so that you have absoluely no choice except more HP or main stat.

Why would i bother running around trying to find an Aim datacron as a jedi guardian?  Its dumb.  Its overly simplistic.  Their solution is not elegant simplicity, its just lazy and uninteresting.

There was some debate before the game released about how replayable the game is, ie. by my definition how fresh and interesting a second or third character is.

I have played 4 characters past level 20 on the same faction.  I have played to characters past level 30 and one past level 40.

The replaybability is terrible especially if your first character was a stealth class that can skip fights.  Every single character will wind up doing the exact same quests in the same area almsot 90% of the content will be shared extactly the same.  The only 10% difference is the class quests of which you will do roughly 1-2 per level after leve 15 o 16.

If you solo the game and stealth past some fight you must do almost every single quests that exists.  If you solo and don't skip you will need to do about 90% of the quests.

Obviously if you grind instances you may do less or possibly none at all.

The only variation that exists is in light/dark side choices/companion reactions.  And in the end simply by playing one light side and one dark side you have basically seen all there is to see except the small portion of quests that is the class quest (which is far too slow to develop to justify griding through the same quests a third time).  Compaion reaction is novel and all but in the end only matter from a roleplaying perspective anyway as gifts is the way to go if you have seen it all before.  And frankly that is extremely meager picking unless you are really into the role play part.

If you thought you were a hardcore pvper and you also thought SWTOR would give some kind of decent or hardcore PvP.  Then you probably really aren't a hardcore PvPer.

Originally posted by Cactus-Man

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Cactus-Man

That is the thing,

I will craft in TF2, Minecraft, Terraria, Dark Cloud 2 etc., but will not touch crafting in MMOs.

The reason for me is that crafting in MMOs unlike other games is turned into a seperate but also completely dull mechanic rather than something I can do while doing other fun things.  And crafting in MMOs is mostly for leveling purposes or profit but not making things you can personally use.

I guess you didn't try ToR?  Unlike the "stand in front of forge" crafting of typical games, you basically schedule your companions to do it for you while you continue playing the game.

It's a fantastic system I hope more games explore, whether or not gamers dig the rest of ToR's gameplay.

Oh I tried it,

I like how it does not waste your time with non gameplay, but didn't find the crafts all that useful, other than biochem.

SWTOR does the same old shit it just give you an assembly line to do it.

I can see how the added complexity of making an assembly line run smoothly may appeal to some people.

However its still shit since its the same old shit.  In fact it worse than alot of crafing systems since you have to run grind instances in the higher levels and your assembly line comes to a crashing halt.

 I think DDO's implementation of stealth is one of the best,  three is a visual and audible skill for stealthing and a visual and audible skill for detecting stealth.  The lighting of an area also affects stealthing and then there are spell that can allso affect detection.

As for actually trying to hide like one would in real life.  That is a pipe dream.  Watch what real snipers do in the field.  The games are just not setup for things to work out that way.  movement is not freeform enough and things like cover are just way to whacky.