Originally posted by cukimunga

 I think people can go a week without getting new gear. The people that didn't do all the raids from WOTLK get all the new green and blues and its a win win situation. 

 You never played WoW have you?  People that play WoW want instant gradification and a reward for everything they do, going a week with getting a new piece of gear would piss most of the player base in WoW off.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

 You should talk about things you have no idea about.  You never played EQ if you think that EQ was about gear.  Gear in EQ is second to everything.  Shit my 84 necromancer still uses a ring that I got back when I was lvl 65, why because the clicky is better then any upgrade.

EQ raiding was never about gearing up for the next encounter.  Very few people care much about their gear in EQ, sure some people grind and raid to get the best of the best gear but most players play EQ1 to have fun and be challenged.  Gear from some classes like tanks are important but again you never half to raid in EQ to still be useful in other areas nor do you have to have the best of the best to have a chance.

EQ is nothing like WoW, I do not understand why people compare the two all the time.  EQ is more of a "theme Park" game but not even close to games like WoW and its clones that are on rails and only give you one path to level and advance.  EQ allowed players to choose their own path to level with multiple zones at each level  to hunt.   Quests in EQ were real quests not the quests we see today in MMOs.  EQ quests made you work for them, made you figure them out.  Most importantly they were fun.

Next time, compare WoW to another game you have played or have any idea about.

Like most of you, EQ1 has most of my Cherished MMO Memories.

Finally stepping foot into VT after months of working the key was a great feeling.  Knowing that I got a key that most people on the server would never ever get. (SoE made it keyless now).

The day my first ever MMO character reached max level.  My Dwarf Warrior hitting lvl 50.  That Ding was the sweetest sound in the world at that time.  Yes I did every Hell level EQ ever had with this character and to this day I still play him from time to time but my Necromancer is my main.

I have 2 best memories.  One from EQ and One from WoW.  Both are saving my raiding guild from wiping.

In EQ, we were working the PoP progression, We were working on BoT.  We were on the last guy, Agnarr the Storm Lord. It was our first try and we wiped.  Myself and another necromancer were the only ones left.  I stood up from FD and started running Agnarr around, Snared landed and he did not summon, so I dotted him.  He was at around 10% health.   The other necro started pulling corpses to the stairs and rezzed a cleric.  So my guild is re setting up, re buffing and I am running around a giant room being chased by a raid mob.  Well, after about 10 minutes of me running this guy around, my guild re engaged and we won the fight.  It was a great feeling knowing that I was able to save the raid that night and we all got our flag.

In WoW I played a Tuaren warrior, my guild had just started raiding MC when I hit 60.  My guild could not get passed the second raid mob (the fire dog).  I joined our 3rd raid into MC, told the raid leader to let me tank.  I tanked the fire dog and we won the fight no problem and then made it another 3 raid mobs deep.  I became the main tank in the guild from that point on and we cleared MC a few tries later.  Great fun know I was the only tank in the guild able to tank every mob in MC.

I signed up to be a founding member but have not heard back yet.

I have a feeling this site will just end up being a social networking site for gamers and that you will still have to buy the games at full price to be able to play them.

In no order.

CoD - black ops

Diablo III

EQ next (not this year I know)

Originally posted by Zoulz

Originally posted by pencilrick

Originally posted by BadMedicine

 As an alternative, you could *not* play the games that don't fit into your narrow vision of what an MMO should be like.

As an alternative, you could play offline "Adventure" games or single player RPG's, get the same gaming experience and not have to fork over a monthly subscription.

Seriously, OP has it right.  Lots of newer gamers don't know what an MMORPG is, or should be.  They think it's a linear, on-rails, fixed storyline, filled with repetitive cutscenes and a banal plotline, and with lots of hand holding all the way through.  When they come across one that is built as a world, they panic and ask "where's the story?" or "what am I supposed to do?"  I swear, if you dropped these types of players off at Six Flags or something, they'd cry and ask where their guide was, and in what order they should be led through Smallville.  Just zero initiative, is my guess.

A true MMORPG is like a simulated world.  It has history, lore, and faction, but not some fixed story plotline that players are forced to follow.  The "story" is what has happened in the past and what is going on in the present, but not "your script" to follow forward.  There must be freedom in a good MMORPG or it loses immersion and appeal.

This topic has been touched on many times in this forum, but it seems these points still need to be driven home.  I hope FF XIV comes out soon so you and others can experience "a world" and realize that this gives many more dynamic play possibilities than following a story.

Who are you or anyone else to dictate the definition of a MMORPG? Everyone has their own idea. I'd say the majority of MMORPG players would dictate what the definition of a MMORPG really is. And in that case it's really not what you describe. Maybe your not looking for a MMORPG at all. Maybe your looking for something else.

 Definition of MMORPG = massively multiplayer online ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Nobody is dictating what the definition is, we are asking why the developers do not know what MMORPG means.

MASSIVELY = Massive, huge, large, big

Multiplayer = many, more then 1

online = internet connection required

Role Playing = playing a role other then what you are in RL.

Get a clue before you post, thank you.

Originally posted by JSchindler

Originally posted by TdogSkal

First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO.  Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand.  Your "friend" and his team did a very poor job of research if they came to the conclusion that their is no demand.

I really don't think that this is true.

Not when one actually casts ones mind back to what the old-school players preferences were. There's a rose-tinted tendancy to lump all "old school" players into one happy little family that is at odds with the "post-WoW players". It's not true at all.

If you were to make an "old school" game; what type of one would you make?

• An EQ style group PVE grind/camp/raid game?
• An UO style (pre-trammel) FFA-PvP sandbox with full loot?
• A DAOC style 3-faction RvR focused game?
• An SWG style (pre-CU) PVE sandbox focused on crafting and non-combat skills?

The "my game is better than your game" debate raged back then just as much as it does now, and developers simply won't be able to cater to every "old school" player at once. Too many conflicting playstyles.

Then what would you do; spend untold millions making AAA versions of all 4 games?

There's just not enough financial incentive in it for the moneymen. Sad, but true.

 All of the above would be fine, thank you and come again.

A group style sandbox PvE game with an indepth crafting system and RvR PvP system which could allow non PvPs to avoid PvP.  One server with a full loot rule set.  Boom Done, thank you.  (Think EvE on the Ground)

Not that hard really if you think about it.  EvEs depths in a Fantasy setting.  It would be a good niche game with a good population.

Originally posted by SwampRob

 

Is my opinion more right than yours?   No, it's just right for me.   The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition.     Good luck in your search.

 Again you missed the point, the OP is not saying MMOs suck, the OP is saying the MMOs suck for him/her and his/her type of gamer.   Is that really that hard to understand?

Listen, there are gamers out there that hate the way the current state of the MMO genre is and we expect that we are the minority, we accept that casauls and instant gradification have taken over the market and are now the driving force behind the changes.  We accept that we are not longer catered to but what we do not accept and will never accept is being ignored as a group and made to change what we want IN OUR GAMES.

IMO

Originally posted by heerobya

So let's do the math.

Why haven't we seen any new high quality AAA polished-on-release sandbox "old school" mmos?

Because no one wants to put up that much money to target such a small audience in comparison.

 

So what did they do?

Try to emulate the "big dogs" but what happens there?

They hire 2nd rate talent and don't spend enough to match the quality and polish if a game that's been released for years already.

 

You can't fake it and you can't copy it. 

 lol, I do not disagree with you.  I am pointing out that those 3 posters said their was NO market demand which is false. 

The MMORPG genre has been won by the casuals and I want it now crowd.  All us gamers that want more out of our games can do now is vote with our wallet which we have already lost and bitch and cry on the forums until some random developer decides to throw us a bone.

So that is what we do, we come to these forums and bitch and cry about the genre that we once loved and ruled.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 EvE is in space, not my cup of tea.  -1

Darkfall and Mortal Online are all about PvP, not my cup of tea - 2

Earthrise is a sci fi game, not my cup of tea -1

Vanguard was rushed and was never finished due to bad management so that does not count -1

FFXI is fun but I rather play EQ1 which is what I am playing currently.

6 - 4 = 2.  2 choices for gamers like myself and both are over 10 years old.  Yea alot of choice there.  thanks for playing but you fail.

You realize that it's YOU that is eliminating choices from yourselves based on your preferences and likes / dislikes not some grand scheme by MMORPG companies?

Right?

I could take a list of the top 6 new-school MMORPG's and tell you why I am not playing them just as easily.

 Yes your right, its my choice to not play those games based on what I know I like.  What is your point?  My point is that I and gamers like me do not have any new games that are made for our niche market.  We have a few choices but those choices are 10+ years old.

Look I am still playing EQ1 right now because it is the only game on the market that is my type of game, again I know I am the minority but we should still get some games for us.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Oh silly...

You know how much it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic.

You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.

And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!

Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.

How well have those faired?

You won't a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.

It's already been proven. Four times.

MO hasn't launched yet, Earthrise is still in development, and Vanguard launched way before it was ready and was a total mess.

Darkfall is still an unknown for the time being. Yes the population is small, but we still have to take a wait and see approach.

Do you know why? Do you know why VG launched before it was ready and the DF population is small? Do you know why ER and MO haven't launched yet and don't look all too promising outside their niche audiences?

 Yea the same reasons that WAR, AoC and all the other current theme park games are not doing well.  Poorly made, rushed to released games.   It has nothing to do with how many players the small niche audience has, it has to do with the quility of the product.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO.  Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand.  

Second, sure the Majority of the market are casual gamers and they have a ton of games to choose from.  Us gamers that want more depth, more challenge do not have many choices and most of our choices are over 10 years old.  

Logical and interllectually stimulating arguments these are not because again they both failed to mention that there IS A MARKET FOR AN OLD SCHOOL GAME.  Not a large market but enough of a market to develop a game.

 Its not hard to understand their is amarket for a new old school MMO but because it will not draw the large numbers

Oh silly...

You know how much $ it takes to make a quality MMO? Like, one that actually works and isn't a joke? More money then is worth investing on such a small demographic. Heck, many big budget MMOs STILL fail cause they fail to capture the larger demographics.

You are right, there IS a demand for such a MMO.

And guess what? You've had THREE yes 3 games made in the past 3-4 years! Well if you count Vanguard 4!

Darkfall, Mortal Online, Vanguard, Earthrise.

How well have those faired?

You won't find a AAA high budget MMO it's just too bad. You are right, there is a market for an old school game. But NOT a big enough market to justify spending AAA budgets on.

It's already been proven. Four times. Think I'm wrong?

If there was this magical market you speak of for an old school game... we'd have more old school games then the 4 above mentioned. And there are TWO that are currently active and quite popular. EvE and FFXI.

So that's 6.... not enough options for you?

 EvE is in space, not my cup of tea.  -1

Darkfall and Mortal Online are all about PvP, not my cup of tea - 2

Earthrise is a sci fi game, not my cup of tea -1

Vanguard was rushed and was never finished due to bad management so that does not count -1

FFXI is fun but I rather play EQ1 which is what I am playing currently.

6 - 4 = 2.  2 choices for gamers like myself and both are over 10 years old.  Yea alot of choice there.  thanks for playing but you fail.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by jotull

Originally posted by udon

Like it or not the changes to the MMO market have been customer driven.  Modern MMO’s are targeted to more casual players because more casual players are who makes up the bulk of the paying customer base.  The people who frequent this forum are not a good example of the typical MMO player.  The high development costs of a modern MMO means that the features the OP misses in older MMO’s would be suicide to implement today in a high budget MMO.  There are just not enough people who would play that game to justify the development costs.  Sure a MMO where you procedurally generate star systems and most your modeling work is ships can be developed and supported using those kinds of systems but not a graphically intense high fantasy MMO.

 

A changing player demographic and exponentially increasing development costs killed the MMO’s you miss not laziness or some conspiracy by studios.

 You are uttering the truths that The Nostalgia crowd tend to ignore.  A good freind of mine who is a project manager for Simutronics spent the better part of 2008 and 2009 researching why Old school EQ and UO paradigms no longer work today, and his team basically came to the same conclusion. The majority of customers drive the market, and theer is just no demand to go back to what many gamers consider the stone age.

What?!? logic and reasoning from not one but TWO posters on MMORPG.com?

jotull, udon, if I could report you both for defying the MMORPG.com conventions of "retardation and idiocy" then I would!

How DARE you make such logical and intellectually stimulating arguments on a web forum!

 First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO.  Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand.  Your "friend" and his team did a very poor job of research if they came to the conclusion that their is no demand.

Second, sure the Majority of the market are casual gamers and they have a ton of games to choose from.  Us gamers that want more depth, more challenge do not have many choices and most of our choices are over 10 years old.  

Logical and interllectually stimulating arguments these are not because again they both failed to mention that there IS A MARKET FOR AN OLD SCHOOL GAME.  Not a large market but enough of a market to develop a game.

Basicly all 3 of you need to learn the difference between no demand and a small demand.   Again your friend and his research team sucks at their job if they came to that conlusion.

I will help you a little if you can use logic and reasoning like you say you can.

Most of the driving population cannot afford lamborghini but they are still made and sold each year because their is a small market for them. 

Do you understand?  Do you get that your logic and reasoning is wrong.  That your "friend" and his team do not know how to research?  Its not hard to understand their is amarket for a new old school MMO but because it will not draw the large numbers like WoW, companies do not make them because they think they can get WOW numbers.

I hope not.  3d is a gimic at best, 3d is nothing new, it has been around for years.

MMO in 3d would suck if I had to wear the stupid 3d glass the whole time I played.  Same with this crappy 3d TV shit, why would anyone want to sit and wear those glass the whole time you are sitting and watching TV, so stupid.

No, god please no do not make 3d MMOs.

Any the Next MMO hype is the Secert MMO Blizzard is working on, soon as that is revealed that will be the next MMO hype but thanks for playing.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Andir

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 Camping IS standing in line. 10 groups camp a boss. Each group take turn. Not you turn, you wait .. if that is NOT waiting in line, what is?

I can't think of one place where you had ten groups camping one boss, ever.  The most I've seen is two camps waiting for turns getting the FBSS and that was outclassed by expansion loot.  The worse camping I remember was the pre-change Journeyman's Boots which was one group and sometimes it would take days to get your loot turn.  They changed it because it was like that... though I admit they didn't change it for the better.  Camping Cyclops was worse!

I think you are exaggerating a little too much.  Yes, those are two instances of "waiting in line" but the game as a whole was not this type of waiting... unless you were one of those people who desired the best loot and nobody was going to stand in your way.  You could successfully play the game without camping these (I did.)  I got my Enchanter to level 57 and my Warrior to level 53 on nothing but what I considered casual gaming.  I quit playing after the Legacy of Y`kesha.  I'd join my server, get a port to whatever zone I wanted to group in, invis and navigate my way through the elaborate dungeons (which NO game has matched to date) all by memory and join up with a group for a chance at some new gear.  If I didn't get it that day, it wasn't the end of the world.

In fact, I had more fun with my Enchanter "grinding" faction than I did anything else.  I'd illusion to a friendly race, kill some low level mobs for an hour or so, then go wandering into the cities of my "enemies" because of the awesome utility of the illusion line.  It was a personal goal to become welcome in every town in Norrath as a Dark Elf without illusion and I obtained that quite easily.

Well the fact that you are casual and refuse to camp does NOT mean this kind of camping does not exist. There are plenty like what i described. For example, i camped SIX HOURS for a SMR (Shiney Metallic Robe) once. We got to kill the boss may be like 5-6 times and it did NOT drop.

WORST experience EVER. WOW is much better. At least you will get some emblems.

 Yea heaven forbid you have to put effort into try to get a piece of gear you wanted.  Geez, how crazy something is not just handed to you.  You had to gasp, work at something to get rewarded, what a crazy concept.

Of course you like WoW, its a game that hands you gear for little to no effort.  You and your kind are the reason that MMOs have been dumbed down and made into easy mode theme parks.  You want to play mindless, no challenge games and get all the shiny rewards for just showing up. 

Just because you choose to camp this item does not mean it was a problem, you personally made the choice to get this item, it was your choice to stay and camp this item for 6 hours, it was your choice.  Nobody forced you.  I did my Warrior 1.0 whe they first came out, it took team work, thinking, and a lot of effort.  IT was so rewarding when I finally did the last turn in for my light sabors.  I camped the CoS (pre nerf Circle of shadows) and guess what I still use it to this day.  Sure its never fun camping something and killing the name only to see it not drop what you wanted but hey thats life, learn to deal with it.  Sure their were popular camps that always had "Lines" for the special items but then again you could go get something else instead of that item because EQ you had choices in items.  Rarely were you forced to get a certain piece of gear.

I have played EQ since launch, I have left many times only to return because it offers the best of all worlds.  The more effort you put into the game the more you are reward, simple concept.  Unlike WoW, if you show up, you get a prize.

Games should be played to challenge you, Video games have always been about problem solving, even in the earliest days of video games, it was always about over coming what the programmer created to win.  WoW changed this model and now everything is given to the players without making them solve any problems.  WoW has maybe 5 raids that require any thinking at all, the reset is a guided tour of the WoW content.

Originally posted by Gajari

I wish they would do away with, or at least shorten the time in Tortage. Every time I try to get back into this game, I get bored of it in Tortage because it SUCKS so much there... :(

They should speed up the 1-20 game there so it's not such a pain.

 I hope your kidding.  Tortage is the best part of Age of Conan.  It is the only good part of the game.  Well though out, voiced over, fun and involved quests.  Once I left Tortage is when the game started to suck.

People you really cannot be this dumb?  Please say your not that dumb

What the hell is this Console vs PC debate even about.  Consoles today are nothing  but PCs that use your TV as a monitor.

PS3/Xbox 360s are as powerful as your avg desktop unless you custom build your PC (which I do).

The main difference between consoles and PC are that PC have massive storage drives and the consoles have limited storage drives.

I would rather game on my PC then any console but that has nothing to do with the power of the console and more to do with a mouse and keyboard.  I rather play with a mouse and keyboard then a controller.  Just my personal opinion. 

MMOs on Consoles? nothing new but they will never become mainstream for a few reasons. 

1. Xbox Live cost money to just be able to go online then factor in a monthy fee to play a MMO and not many are going to spend that kind of money.

2. PS3 internet network is crap, you know it, I know it, Sony knows it, it would suck to try and play an MMO with the Sony online backbone.

3. Consoles battle each other to get games on their system, MMOs are designed to allow the most players to play without having to have the top of the line machine.  aka WoW.  Designed to run on older computers to get more people to play.   What if Microsoft out bid Sony and now WoW is only playable on Xbox360s and not on PS3s.   Do you think that the MMO companys would allow their player base to be cut in half right off the bat because of which console won the bidding war.  NO I do not see that happening in the current greedy developer/publisher era the MMO genre is in.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by uquipu

People do outgrow things.  You're probably not tuning into Sesame Street as much as you used to.  Big Bird and Oscar have lost their charm.

So people do outgrow things.

Another thing to watch out for is burn out.  Many people play MMOs way too much and this can lead to burn out.  You can get burned out on anything, food, hobby, tv shows etc.

Disagree.

I just turned 34 and I still have the same passion to play MMO's as I did when I was in my early twenties and started playing EQ. The problem for me is the lack of quality in today's MMO's, and the serious decline in quality, friendly, helpful, selfless communities in a given game.

 

Although I agree you CAN get burned out on games, the same as with anything else...but because of the above mentioned things, I am finding it much easier to get burned out on today's MMO's due to them more than simply playing them too much.

 I think you nailed it. 

Quality, friendly, helpful, selfess communities are no longer around.  In older games these communites are smaller then ever but I think today's MMOs lack great communities, that I think is the major difference between vet gamers and newer gamers.

Newer games are all about "me" and vet games are all about "community".  

Personally I think that EQ(1) had the best community in any game I have ever played to date.  I got help in that game anytime I asked in general and I helped anyone I could once I got max level.  I love to tell this story because it is a great example of what I am talking about with coummunities. 

I was in a a elite raiding guild in EQ(1), we raided everyday, we had alot of the harder raids on farm status.  Some random saturday the guild was heading to a raid, all 30 of us were runnign though a zone and saw a single cleric asking for help in general and in OOC.   See this cleric need to kill one last boss to finish his epic and his guild did not have enough on to kill it. (think it was a dragon if I remember).  Anyway my guild, the elite raiding guild, took time to run over and help kill this mob, made sure the cleric got his item and then left and went on our raid.  You would never see a raiding guild in todays games go out of their way to help a random player not in their guild do anything, let alone finish an epic weapons quest.

This is one of a million examples I can tell you about.  The community in older games helped each other out, not because we gained anything but because we were all in the same game playing together.  Sure my raiding guild could have just ran by and raided our zone without even bothering with this cleric but no we stopped, we took an hour of our raiding time to help someone we never knew before.

That is the difference, that is the reason most of us vets find these newer games lacking, they destoried the sense of community.  No longer do people just stop and help for the hell of it, now they only stop and help if it helps them in some way.

There are execptions to every rule but for the most part today's communities are anything but communities.

Normally I pick Dwarfs and Dark Elfs. 

Love using Dwarfs for my warrior class and Dark Elfs for my Necromancer class.

Never liked picking humans because, I play one on TV everyday.  Wait what? never mind.

Yea I never have a problem with my side arms but my main gun, either the sniper rifle or assualt rifle I can never find enough ammo for them.