You say I do not remember the bad things in my first MMO?  You say I only remember the good and forget all the bad times?  I say your way off target.  My first MMO was Everquest (1) back in 1999/2000.

I remember trains, I remember corpse runs, I remember slow leveling, I remember hell levels, I remember exp lose on death, I remember kill stealing, I remember rare spawn timers, I remember all the so called bad things but that is were you are missing the boat.  These are not bad things, they are good.  They made the game fun and rewarding.

Trains - sure they sucked but it was very exciting as well.  Some zones you watched chat waiting for that dreaded "Train to zone" . Either your ran or you tried to help that poor soul being chased by the mobs.

Corpse runs - they were not fun and time consuming but they taugh you a valuable lesson, DONT DIE.  Anyone that played EQ learned quickly that dieing sucked and it made better players out of us.  It made players learn their character.  No you did avoid hard challenges you just learned how to win them, you learned how to use your character to its fullest.  

Slow leveling - sure it was not fun taking a week to gain one level but it also allowed us to enjoy the journey and not worry about rushing to the max level, it allowed us to meet new people and explore new zones.

Hell Levels - Some of you may know what I am talking about others may not but EQ had hell levels, levels that took twice to three times the exp to level as the normal levels but guess what.  It was rewarding getting passed them, you felt like you accomplished something. Max level players were respected and in return those max levels helped lower levels out because they knew what the lower levels were going though.  In todays game a max level character is a dime a dozen and means nothing.

Exp lose on Death - This is the one all the "new" players hate or are scared of.  Losing exp was not fun at all but it did serve a good funtion, if you did something stupied you paid a big price.  I lost lvl 50 3 times before I final was able to keep it (50 was max level).  Losing exp helped teach players how to play their class better and also how to play the game better.   It also created a good community because other players had been their before and knew how hard it was.  Help was always a /Shout a way in Everquest.

These things are looked at as bad things, poor design but they are not, they created better communities, they created a more skilled player base.  Players had to play smarter then todays players due to gameplay design.  I am willing to bet that someone that started playing MMOs with WoW could not beat a player that started in UO or EQ in a fair MMO fight.

I played a Warrior and Necromancer, my Necromancer was my main and during a raid one night my guild wiped on a raid mob and I was the only one left alive, I was able to rez a cleric and kite the raid mob around till the rest of the raid was ready to re engage the mob.  Guess what it was one of the greatest moments I have ever had in any MMO to date.  I saved the raid by myself because I learned how to play my toon and knew what I could handle and exactly how to do it because i was able to learn from my pass mistakes.  I learned because death hurt and it forced me to learn ways to stay alive.   I can't tell you how many times during my EQ career I walked away from a battle thinking "how the hell did I live?"   

Games today require no thinking, no problem solving.  I play video games because I love problem solving and I love figuring things out.  Today you get your hand held though out the game and you are not allowed to make mistakes let alone learn from your mistakes. 

There are a few encounters in WoW that are hard and make you think but most of the game is on easy mode and that is just not fun for me any many others.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Bertiaux

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Darkfall.

Fallen Earth.

Mortal Online.

Xsyon.

These are games that break the mold you speak of.

And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?

Where to start.

Darkfall - I played in Beta, no thank you, AGAIN NO THANK YOU.  FFA game with no player skill involved and do not say other wise because you dam well know what the longer the player has played (afk macro) the more wins they will have in PvP Period,  sure sometimes the lesser player wins but not many and the ganking is out of control at least when I played.

Which obviously makes you an authority on the current state of the game.

Mortal Online - Not released yet and again this is a very unfinished game that will be finished with your money once released just like Darkfall.  Buggy game right now.

Xsyon - not sure if these is even a real game or not yet, all the info we have are some screen shots and a website and dev comments, no video, no real information.  So we have to wait and see.

Fallen Earth - Played beta, fun game but not my cup of tea which is fine.  Good game though. 

again.

So 1 out of 4 is pretty good I guess

Myself, I want a fantasy game that allows for player skill and makes a player work and learn as they play, nothing handed out.  Like I have said in the past, give me a game along the lines of Everquest (1) with update graphics and new lore and I will pay and play it.  Played EQ1 for 5+ years.

Currently I am playing Pirates of the Burning Sea because I like the Realm vs Realm and the ship combat is alot of fun.  Best part of PoTBS is that it takes player skill to win PvP battles, having a heaver ship does not mean you win, knowing how to sail your ship and when and what skills/repairs to use at what time count more then the number of guns you have.

 

Lol I cannot give my opinion now?  What the hell is your problem, you like darkfall, good for you does not make my opinion of the game any less my opinion of the game.

Yes I played Beta and what I saw during beta makes me not want to pay to play darkfall nor FallenEarth.  Fallen Earth is a way better game then Darkfall.  Darkfall was nothing but random granking, afk macroing and zerg fest pvp where the person with more skill points won most of the time during my time in beta.   Darkfall is not even close to the games the developers told us about.  Not even in the same universe as what they said Darkfall was going to be.

Did you even read my post at all?  I think you just say beta and jumped gun, typical fan boy.

Originally posted by Bertiaux

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Darkfall.

Fallen Earth.

Mortal Online.

Xsyon.

These are games that break the mold you speak of.

And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?

Where to start.

Darkfall - I played in Beta, no thank you, AGAIN NO THANK YOU.  FFA game with no player skill involved and do not say other wise because you dam well know what the longer the player has played (afk macro) the more wins they will have in PvP Period,  sure sometimes the lesser player wins but not many and the ganking is out of control at least when I played.

Mortal Online - Not released yet and again this is a very unfinished game that will be finished with your money once released just like Darkfall.  Buggy game right now.

Xsyon - not sure if these is even a real game or not yet, all the info we have are some screen shots and a website and dev comments, no video, no real information.  So we have to wait and see.

Fallen Earth - Played beta, fun game but not my cup of tea which is fine.  Good game though. 

So 1 out of 4 is pretty good I guess

Myself, I want a fantasy game that allows for player skill and makes a player work and learn as they play, nothing handed out.  Like I have said in the past, give me a game along the lines of Everquest (1) with update graphics and new lore and I will pay and play it.  Played EQ1 for 5+ years.

Currently I am playing Pirates of the Burning Sea because I like the Realm vs Realm and the ship combat is alot of fun.  Best part of PoTBS is that it takes player skill to win PvP battles, having a heaver ship does not mean you win, knowing how to sail your ship and when and what skills/repairs to use at what time count more then the number of guns you have.

Originally posted by Nythious

 How about, instead of blaming the company

 

Blame the asswipes who crack these games forcing companies to take such measures.  If people didn't do all the stupid shit to bypass paying for a game, companies wouldn't have to take these ridiculous steps to make a profit. 

From a personal perspective, I don't mind the sharing/transfer of music/games online.

From a business perspective, you lose thousands of dollars.

From a logical perspective, you make more money if you try to do a DRM.

From a realistic perspective, those who cracked the game, weren't ever going to purchase the game in the first place. 

 

The only people you can blame for shitty DRMs are your fellow gamers who screw it up for the rest of us.  So deal with it. You bought a game and it's fubared, other people are having the same issue... I'm pretty sure the company is going to try and resolve the issue. 

Steam should return the money, BUT there is a thing called a "Terms and Agreement" that you clicked yes to.  Soooo in the long run, your complaining about something you already agreed to... GG for not reading. 

First lets start with "Terms and Agreement"  or ToS or EULA or anything like them are not legal contracts, me click yes is not the same as me signing a contract.  You can and will win in a court of law with the right lawyer but it will cost you.    Just like back in the day in arcade rooms, the sign that read "Play at your own risk" is not a legal sign and can be challenged in the court of law.

Unless you physically sign a contract or verbly comit to the contract it is not legally binding and can be challenged in any court of law.

Second True its the hackers that caused most companies to move to DRM but how far these companies have taken DRM is out of control.  You play a single player game you have to be connected to the internet 24/7?  That is crap.

Originally posted by Rockgod99

WoW winning the poll? On this website?

Hell has finally frozen over lol.

Lol RockGod99.  Hell Freezes every winter my friend.  Look it up. 

Every single year hell freezes. 

Everquest.  Nothing beats it.  Best community during its "time". 

No hand holding, no instant gradifictaion, meanful death penatly, fun and different classes, tons of different zones to explore and fighting in.

My favorite part of the game is by far the fact that players feared death and due to this fact lead to some great moments that I still look back on and think "how did I not die?"

Never had more fun in an MMO then I did playing EQ, I hope one day some developer makes a modern day MMORPG along the lines of EQ. 

I loved the Rallos Zek Event in Plane of War/Tactics. 

not a raid but great events were the Plane of Justice trails.  They were so much fun and a good challenge the first few times you tried them.

My favorite of all time is the Emperor fight in SSRA.  He was the big boss of the Snake people things and you had to have special weapons to damage him and if your melee players forgot their bane weapons the fight was nearly impossible.  I say nearly because we spend 2 hours one night killing him without bane weapons.  Me being a caster it was a fun fun fight.

I loved raiding in EQ1, never really enjoyed raiding in any other MMOs.

I like the way Pirates of the burning sea does it.

4 factions all fighting over all the ports.

It makes for a fun game and some good battles.  You form Alliance with a faction one day and the next are in a full blow war with them, its great fun.

I work as a System Admin for a medium size company which pays the bills plus alot which allows me to run 2 to 3 subs at any given time.

I am single and only have to worry about feeding myself and my dog (which is like a kid, no I am serious) and my normal bills, car, house, crap like that.   I just watch my cash flow and make sure I spend it on thing that I WANT not on what is "COOL".

Good luck on your research, your questions need some work.  Alot of repeat questions just worded differently.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Josher

 Harsh penalties that translate to lost time don't make the actual FIGHT any more fun or difficult.  Never has, never will.  If it did make it more fun, people would be dropping gold and deleting gear in WOW or LOTR when they wipe on a dungeon.  They don't...hence...NOT fun. They don't choose to keep playing EQ either, hence, NOT fun ANYMORE.

If you could choose instantly that in Darkfall or Eve, when you died, you didn't drop your gear and didn't lose your ship, lets take an honest guess as to how many more people would prefer to not lose anything.  Who's taking bets?

How many people played Dragon Age and NEVER used quick save or ONLY saved at the camp?  How many played on normal or easy compared to the hardest difficulty?   I played on hard, but thats because losing didn't translate to mindless LOST time.  The actual fights were harder and required a lot more strategy which made it more fun.  But in a MMO, penalties and time sinks don't make the fights harder.  Its the same fight.  Remove the corpse run and the dungeon is NOT more difficult.  Its just more time consuming when you do happen to fail.  And as we've seen over time, a corpse run is NOT fun for the vast majority.  Penalizing a player's time does not lead to FUN gameplay.  It does appeal to a select niche, but those people have long been forgotten by the higher quality developers.   Thats life.

 

What I do not understand is that you guys keep talking about time this and time that. 

MMORPGs = TIME SINKS.  ALL OF THEM PERIOD.  The whole point of an MMORPG is to get the player to play endlessly so that they keep paying the monthly fee.

Death Penatlies do make fights harder because players know that if they lose they lose time, they lose time that they will have to make up.  Without the Death Penatlies people just throw themselfs at the encounter over and over and over again till they win, that is not how it should be.  You should have to learn how to win the battle and if you do not learn quickly you should have to "pay" something and since we are playing MMORPGs, time is the logical thing to have to pay.

I do not understand the instant gradification crowd, I just do not understand it at all.   Games are here for fun but I do not have fun unless I feel like I earned my victory and I cannot feel like I earned it if I risk nothing in trying to win the event/encounter/fight.  That is my opinion and I know others do not share it but can you please explain why getting something with no risk or effort is rewarding?

Even older console games had Death penatlies that took time away from the player as the penatly.  Look at super mario bro's, if you died you had to restart the whole level, that was the death penatly, making the player start the level over again.

 

You are treating instant gratification with encounter mechanics as if they are one in the same thing, which they are not.

Lets take the original dragons in everquest as an example.  Specifically Vox.

When a raid wipes, there was the normal XP loss and time to rebuff, regroup, etc.  Now lets pretend instead of 10% experience loss there wasn 50% experience loss.

Did the actual mechanics of the fight change?  Did it become harder to kill her?  Some new abilities come to life?  If your group is consistantly killing her, did Lady Vox somehow become unkillable when the penalty for failure was increased? 

No.  It just became more time consuming.  The fight didn't get longer or harder, just the time penalty BETWEEN actually playing the game got larger. 

 

Harsh death penalties don't make the actual skill, abilities or knowledge of a fight any harder.  Harsh death penalties only mean more down time.  That is it.

Some people enjoy the risk associated with large death penalties, but that doesn't make the game any harder or require any more skill.  It doesn't make other crave instant gratification for not enjoying extreme penalties.  

Believe it or not some people enjoy playing and not being forced with excessive time sinks in between playing the game. 

 Exactly!  RISK or TIME recouping is NOT difficulty.   The fight is the same.  The mechanics are the same.  Hard Modes vs normal modes in dungeons make the game harder because the mechanics of the fight change.   Having to grind for X number of hours to make up the EXP you lost does NOT make the encounter any harder.  Only more tedious.

No your right it does not make the fight harder.  It does make the players better.  It makes the players learn faster, makes them listen to the leaders, it makes the whole event better to have a penatly that causes you to lose something valuable.   (time is very valuable)
 

The fight does not get harder but the overall feel of the event has more of an edge if you risk losing something important which we can all agree on is time.   Risk is what changes not the fight, the Risk is increased with a tough penatly.   The fight stays the same, it does not get harder but to the players the event is "harder" because if they lose they lose something important to them vs the same event with no loss of anything.

This goes for all events not just raid events, if the risk to lose something is great, it makes the player better overall, makes them learn the ins and outs of their character.   We can see this in the lack of PuGs now a days vs back in the old days.   Today players do not have to learn their class nor are they punished if they do not learn their class.  Every used pick up groups in older games because the bad player was rare and most players new one with in a few minutes of grouping.

If you think that MMORPGs are Tedious because of timesinks then you are playing the wrong kind of games, the whole point of MMORPGs is to get the player in a timesink. PERIOD.   The longer the player spends playing the game, the more money you gain from said player.  

Look at games today, 1 to 3 months max for most games before players get bored and move on to another game.  That is a ton less money that the company could have made if they would have put risk into their games.

Look at Football.  You have the NFL and the Women's lingerie league.  Both games are still football.  Football is football it does not get harder but with the NFL add the risk of big men and full contact.  Now the NFL is harder then the other league.  Football the game (the fight/event) is still football but now you added the risk to it which made it harder.

Originally posted by Josher

 Harsh penalties that translate to lost time don't make the actual FIGHT any more fun or difficult.  Never has, never will.  If it did make it more fun, people would be dropping gold and deleting gear in WOW or LOTR when they wipe on a dungeon.  They don't...hence...NOT fun. They don't choose to keep playing EQ either, hence, NOT fun ANYMORE.

If you could choose instantly that in Darkfall or Eve, when you died, you didn't drop your gear and didn't lose your ship, lets take an honest guess as to how many more people would prefer to not lose anything.  Who's taking bets?

How many people played Dragon Age and NEVER used quick save or ONLY saved at the camp?  How many played on normal or easy compared to the hardest difficulty?   I played on hard, but thats because losing didn't translate to mindless LOST time.  The actual fights were harder and required a lot more strategy which made it more fun.  But in a MMO, penalties and time sinks don't make the fights harder.  Its the same fight.  Remove the corpse run and the dungeon is NOT more difficult.  Its just more time consuming when you do happen to fail.  And as we've seen over time, a corpse run is NOT fun for the vast majority.  Penalizing a player's time does not lead to FUN gameplay.  It does appeal to a select niche, but those people have long been forgotten by the higher quality developers.   Thats life.

What I do not understand is that you guys keep talking about time this and time that. 

MMORPGs = TIME SINKS.  ALL OF THEM PERIOD.  The whole point of an MMORPG is to get the player to play endlessly so that they keep paying the monthly fee.

Death Penatlies do make fights harder because players know that if they lose they lose time, they lose time that they will have to make up.  Without the Death Penatlies people just throw themselfs at the encounter over and over and over again till they win, that is not how it should be.  You should have to learn how to win the battle and if you do not learn quickly you should have to "pay" something and since we are playing MMORPGs, time is the logical thing to have to pay.

I do not understand the instant gradification crowd, I just do not understand it at all.   Games are here for fun but I do not have fun unless I feel like I earned my victory and I cannot feel like I earned it if I risk nothing in trying to win the event/encounter/fight.  That is my opinion and I know others do not share it but can you please explain why getting something with no risk or effort is rewarding?

Even older console games had Death penatlies that took time away from the player as the penatly.  Look at super mario bro's, if you died you had to restart the whole level, that was the death penatly, making the player start the level over again.

Originally posted by Loke666

It was surely a cool idea, and I hope we see something similar in the future.

A zone with great risk and great rewards is always cool, as long as there only is one place like that.

But I think it is time to get a new go at death penalties. Particularly in zone penalties. When you get rezzed inside a zone you should get some cooler penalties, like a critical wound that affects you until you rested a while in an inn or something. Losing an eye, having problem walking, concussion that makes magic tougher and so on.

It would still be kinda care bear but not like today when you (maybe) loose some armor percentage. 

I liked Lineage where you sometimes dropped an item, and if you wiped or were alone any passing monster would pick it up and add it too their loot.

Kind of off topic, so I am sorry but Loke666.  Last night in Pirates of the Burning Sea, I blow off one of my legs doing a mission and now I have a peg leg instead of my normal leg.  Kind of funny and was a fun mission to say the least.   Are these the kind of things you are thinking about for a death penalty.  It did not effect my stats or speed just my look.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Shatter30

Quitting for this = LOL.  Even WOW has pets that cost $$ so I guess we shouldnt play WOW either.  This is all fluff stuff that has no impact on the game at all.  Dont like it, dont buy it, but quitting because of it?  Cmon.  Keep in mind this is the trend of MMO's right now.  CO, STO, WOW, Aion, etc etc all have stores now.  Im sure more do to and more will to come. 

 

What do you mean 'even WoW'? Who even mentioned WoW? Why do people always have to drag that game up in every conversation like it's the only game they know? :/

No, again, and I have said this a few times, if you had read the OP you would see I have many issues and MT was just the final straw. Your LoLing at something you obviosuly havent even bothered reading, which isnt a great sign.

C'mon people, theres more to a post then the frikin title :/

As for trends... everythings ok with you, as long as it's a 'trend'? As long as there is a line of sheeple to join the end of?

Jesus, what happened to free thought?

 

 

lol free though?  That is dead as well as common sense.  MT is the wave of the future and it sucks if you truly love MMORPGs as I do.  I would rather pay my $15 a month and be able to play the game without having to fork over more money to get items though a shop. 

I do not mind companies allow players to pay to transfer charaters but that is were I draw the line, changing races, changing sides?  Really?  Start a new character if you want to try a difference race, start a new character if you want to join the other realm, start a new character if you want to be a female/male this time.  These things are starting to make me rethinking supporting the MMORPG genre.

I see a few games that are currently being developed that are going to hopfully break these trends but we will have to wait and see.

I voted no because I do not smoke, every now and again I might smoke a cigar but that is very rare.

Originally posted by Hoobley

The greatest toy of all time in my opinion. You're never to old to create and use your imagination.

This is so true, you are never to old to use your imagination. That is what we tend to forget as adults.  Being creative and using our imaginations are ageless activities.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Do you have enough things to do at all levels without feeling bored is how you measure the amount of content.

---

 

So how much content STO got?

 

---

Originally posted by Drachasor

Quests, camps, zones, zone size, individual quest size/depth, random content variability, depth of the crafting system, and others are good measures of content. There's lots of type of content, so it does need multiple measures (I suppose one could make a composite measure if you wanted though).

---

 

You name things you want to measure but how you do it?

Based on the time i spent in open beta, I would say 60 to 80 hours worth of content.  Just a bit more then Dragon Age which had about 50 hours worth of content but again Dragon Age is a single player game without a monthly fee.

Originally posted by Gdemami

I have asked this in other thread but I might be more lucky here.

How do you measure amount of content?
 

Do you have enough things to do at all levels without feeling bored is how you measure the amount of content.

Lego's are about freedom and creativity.  That is why I love them and will try this game out.  Lego Universe is about freedom, exploring, building, creating.  Whats not to love about that?

Todays MMOs are about holding your hand from quest hub to quest hub with no creativity nor freedom.  Even if i have to play with a bunch of 5 years, I am willing to bet the community will be better then most of the MMOs on the market.

Originally posted by mackdawg19

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by dirtyklingon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by dirtyklingon

Originally posted by banthis

No offense but the Queue times are only low "now" because a decent percentage of players can't log in thanks to the extreme short grace period they gave and all the companies they allowed to Over Sell pre orders too.

 

game went live 7 days ago and grace period for most customers is still in effect. most mmo's grace periods is 24-48 hours, not a week plus.

 

and during the grace periods is when most mmo's experience the longest queues, and they haven't been that bad. longest i've been in one was 20 minutes 700ish out of 700ish.

 

In this day and age with the technology we have queues are unacceptable. PERIOD.

 

 

name a recent mmo that sold well that didn't have queues...

 

some wow servers still have queues.

 

queues are a fact of life in this industry.

 

and the recent mmo's that i played all had much longer queues than in STO.

Everquest 1 -  no queues even at launch
 

Darkfall  - no queues

EvE online - no queues.

PoTBS - no queues.

All the games I play have no queues.  Saying it is a fact of life in this industry is a bunch of crap and as long as people like you keep paying for sub par products shit will never change.  We need to hold these companies accountable for their shitty products but as long as people like you make excuses and keep giving them money for their crappy products and rushed games this will never change.

We have the technology today to not have queues but developers know that customers will just wait in the queues and make up excuses because gamers refuse to hold them resonsible for shitty designed server clusters and games period.

 

You should really learn about technology and actually work with it before you continue with your rant. It clearly seems obvious you know little to nothing, and before you try, saying you work in the gaming field is only that, words. There is a reason games like Eve and DarkFall can have no ques. Look at the way they launched and that should give you an obvious reason. And there is no technology in the world that can compensate for 1000's of player characters along with NPC's/Monsters and the like and still promote lag free game play in an open world without some type of clustering/instancing that also comes with ques. Tell you what, work with the UDK and try building a small playfield, get a server up and launch about 1000 bot's on it. You will find out why developers choose instancing and ques over open worlds. It's all about playability, something you think technology can just bypass for your leisure. People need to get away from this chair developer stand point and realize that this is how games work. An mmorpg is a work in progress. For all you people who want instant satisfaction, and think we have the best tech possible for that, live in a fantasy world. I can sit here all day and hope for a open world game with dx10/11 graphics and content galore, but in reality I'd rather just like to game then wait 10+ years for development of such a game. Cheers and move back into reality, we are not hurting the development cycle and they are not hurting or taking advantage of us.

EDIT: And to add, never put EQ in a category when trying to talk about tech. Seriously, you blow all credit.

Why to assume.  I work in the IT field, I know about technology thank you very much.  Its apart of my job to know about technology and how to use it.
 

They are very much taking advantage of us.  Think about it, you sit in a queue to play a game you pay for by the month, you are still paying for the time when you are sitting in a queue and not playing the game you are paying for.  That is us gamers getting taking advantage of.  People like you defend these practice giving excuses which allow these companies to keep put out these sub par game.

The only developer that should get a pass when it comes to queues is WoW because nobody in the world could have guessed it would get that big that fast.  Games like STO should have planned for big launchs because its using an IP that is known and an IP that has a huge folloing.  It is simply unacceptable for a company that is using an IP as large as Star Trek not to be ready for a large amount of players.

Can you make a perfect plan? nope but you should be able to make a good enough plan to be able to not have a queue at launch. The gaming industry does not learn for each others mistakes and that is unacceptable in any industry.