Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by elocke

The only thing that needs to change is endgame for the most part.  I like the WoW system of leveling, it's the endgame grind that gets old.  which leads me to saying Look for ArcheAge.  It looks to me like the game I've been wanting, a combo of UO with WoW basically. 

I am looking forward to Archeage too, it looks like it has the right mix, the freedom and complexity of a sandbox and the accessibility of a themepark MMO

God no. The WoW system of leveling is the most boring system to date. Do you seriously enjoy running from hub to hub by yourself following a dotted line to get 5 wolf tails over and over again?

I'd rather have an immersive world where the quests were something to get excited about, and a game that encouraged people to group up and explore. I can't get into ANY MMOs these days because they all have the same bs "walk up to the guy with the glowing mark over his head, click yes, follow to waypoint on map, kill 5 things, come back until level 50". It's monotonous, its anti social, its uninspired, it's boring.

When was the last time you did a WoW quest hub.  WoW's quests are fun and different.  Try doing the What really happened the day Deathwing came in Badlands, or the entire quest line for horde in Stonetalon Mountains.  So, to answer your question, hell yes I enjoy running from quest hub to quest hub doing those quests.  For my leveling purposes.  I've played every other MMO out there and none of them made my leveling experience that fun.

I'm sorry, but I'd rather not force myself to do 300 boring quests to get to the 10 or so good ones. I'd much rather just have more than one way to level up, or a way that encourages socializing, and do quests when I want a fun interesting quest! Is that really so hard to understand?

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

From my westerners point of view, there is absolutley no balanced PvEvP mmorpg game available.  Would that invigorate such a game; I think so.  But today, about every mainstream mmorpg is a heavily instanced themepark of redundant and rudimentary non-organic single-player type content, and which only consists of meaninless instanced and same mini-map capture-the-flag pvp that one's expected to pay $15/month for; but which one can get the same out of any lobby-system single-player RPG.

 

That seems to be the dicotomy.

Yup, that's more or less correct. Games with PvEvP once existed in grand fashion, but real MMOs have fallen out of favor because big companies think its only worth their time to make WoW clones, then wonder why their stocks fall and their games fail. Eventually we'll get a company smart enough to aim for the core MMORPG demographic and do it right, but until then... I mean look at Vanguard, hardcore MMO aimed at the core MMO gamer demographic, pulled in 300-400k sales on its FIRST DAY, RIGHT BEHIND the launch of WoW's first expansion (which had been advertised for like 6 months). Problem with Vanguard was that it tried to do too much and was forced to launch too early, but it proved the market for hardcore MMOs is still there, you just have to budget and aim accordingly.

Originally posted by GreenHell

This thread reminds me of when SOE told all of us that we didn't want to be Uncle Owen and that we all really wanted to be heroes like Luke. Good old Uncle Owen wanst  iconic enough. Shortly after that SWG lost 3/4 of its player base. I guess some people were happy to be Uncle Owen after all.

This.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Instances kill open world everything...

This. Nice DAoC avatar, us old DAoC players know this for truth ;)

If done properly, like DAoC battlegrounds, they don't ruin things. DAoC Battlegrounds weren't "instances" so much as locked out zones. Any number of players could go in them, and they were persistant, no stupid rounds or resets or anything like that, but it was only open from players 20-24, or 25-29, or 30-36, ect ect. It was a way of previewing people for big boy RvR. You could even level up in these battlegrounds if you wanted to. Once you hit level 50, you had the Frontier, and no more battlegrounds. But some people liked the BGs they just kept an alt at that level and stayed there. You have to find the right balance. There were MUCH better rewards for doing RvR than Battlegrounds. But battlegrounds were easier to just jump into and play by yourself or with a small group. RvR you had to deal with hundreds of enemies sometimes.

Ah I see, so it isn't just Blizzard that can't come up with an idea by themselves, its all of Activision.

I think CoD is a horribly balanced shooter all around so I don't care. Granted, the programming in the Battlefield series is notoriously bad, the gameplay redeems it somewhat, but..

Other MMOs don't touch WoW. Age touches WoW. WoW exists in its own bubble, when are people going to realize that? How did Rift, a game identical to WoW, pull people from WoW? Most people that play WoW don't even know there's an MMO market.

Originally posted by whilan

Originally posted by fjcastel

Originally posted by Elikal

The entire topic ANGERS me. It just makes me angry.

When I read - "I don't even notice it", I just feel like "Matthew 7:6". I mean, many MMO world have so many interesting details, and people just RUSH through. I bet a lot of funny, cool and stunning details are never ever seen by people. I am that kind of person who turns around every rock. I just said in my guild that I found the Rift quests and lore so fascinating, and then I found out most people don't read it anyway. I mean... WTH? There is so much fascinating stuff, so much love went into these worlds and people just RUN through them like tomorrow was Armageddon! I don't get it.

Yes the lack of day/night cycle is a big disappointment. It just is another point where Bioware doesn't make a world to live in but a mere theatre stage for their plays.

even a theather have day anight scenes... if they dont have night time it might even be a deal breaker for me....  i remember countless in game nights staring at the stars just chatting with my wife tru the game because we were station diferent army post and this was the cheapest way to communicate

 

and yeah that is one big detail to miss out

There are night scenes, some planets are in total day while others are in twilight while still others like Nar shadaa are completely night time. They just don't cycle unless you enter a specific area where this happens.

That is the dumbest gameplay thing I've ever heard... I mean, even Pokemon had day and night cycles... good lord. Might as well just call this a singleplayer game if they're going to let the "storyline" impact the virtual world that much.

Originally posted by Grahor

Originally posted by SignusM

Because devs and non MMO players are determined to turn the genre into a singleplayer RPG with occasional coop with real life friends.

Yep. And for me, it's great. Singleplayer with occasional coop? Good, I can play it. Spending 3 hours a day and 6 hours on weekend building a second life for myself in the game, with second set of human relationships, second job, etc? Sorry, no way I'm playing that. Don't have time.

Then this genre isn't for you. There are already a ton of games that do what you want. Go play Diablo, or Torchwhatever, and all this coop RPGs that exist. MMORPGs were about living in an immersive virtual world. Not being the hero of a singleplayer story arc with a chat box fused on.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Axehilt

The other games (WAR, Aion, AoC) had pretty clear reasons they failed.

Rift I don't really feel is failing.  It has some issues (and it has raiding) but no game is perfect and it's easily the best MMORPG release since WOW.

That's what people said about Aion, and WAR, and AoC. Rift is bleeding subs just like all the other WoW clones, because people have been there and done that already. The best MMO releases since WoW were probably Fallen Earth or Darkfall, games that actually grew AFTER launch.

Every MMORPG ever released bled subs after launch. Including FE and DF.

Again, with WAR/Aion/AOC there are very obvious reasons the games flopped.  With Rift the primary limitation is content.

Content is easy to "fix".

Broken core gameplay (WAR/Aion/AOC) is not.

Rift is in a solid position to grow subs (as long as they don't repeat mistakes like their live event.)

Uhh, what? EverQuest, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, Star Wars Galaxies, Eve Online would all like a word with you. And Darkfall and Fallen Earth have grown with time. Rift doesn't lack content as a reason for its bleeding subs. It lacks unique gameplay. People aren't bored due to lack of content. They're bored because all the content that exists they've already done in previous games.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Nobadeeftw

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Nobadeeftw

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Axehilt

The other games (WAR, Aion, AoC) had pretty clear reasons they failed.

Rift I don't really feel is failing.  It has some issues (and it has raiding) but no game is perfect and it's easily the best MMORPG release since WOW.

That's what people said about Aion, and WAR, and AoC. Rift is bleeding subs just like all the other WoW clones, because people have been there and done that already. The best MMO releases since WoW were probably Fallen Earth or Darkfall, games that actually grew AFTER launch.

Completely agree.  I have seen it happen over and over.  These over hyped games start off with a huge population, have a short 1 - 2 month growth period.  Then the majority of the population becomes increasingly bored with the product and it plumets dramatically.  I'll call Rift a success when it still has as many subs or more than it started with 2 years from now.  lol

Remember when MMORPGs used to reach their peak like, 2-3 years after launch? Man, the genre was good times back before 2004.

Me thinks that's because MMO's back then weren't part of pop culture.  Now that people from all walks of life are drawn to MMOs the expectactions of their subscribers has been drastically altered as a whole.

Yup. MMORPGs aren't really MMOs anymore, because online games aren't aimed at MMORPG gamers, they're aimed at casual folks that enjoy WoW and all those minigame arcade-y online time wasters. It's mainstream, so they appeal to the widest margin of people possible. There are more people out there that want simple time wasters than deep innovative social virtual worlds.

I'm positive if you measured just the hardcore gamers that you'd find they're sticking with modern MMORPGs just as long (if not longer) than they ever did.

There's just a massive tide of additional subs layered on top of that core layer of hardcore gamers which makes it look like there's a huge surge away from games, but the core is still there.

The core has mostly left the genre or "settled" and given up hope that something better will come along. Out of the 9 real life friends that played DAoC with me, all but 3 have quit MMOs. They are now playing, Darkfall, Eve, and one gave up and just plays LotRO waiting for something good to come out (his words).

Originally posted by Neoptolemus

WoW helped launch MMOs into the mainstream which has had its good and bad effects. Budgets and dev teams have increased in size massively, providing more possibilities and ambition.

 

 

Except that no one used that ambition, and MMOs have less and less features as they go along. MMos were more ambitious with small teams and limited funds. They didn't need 5 million subs to make their money back.

I can see almost no good effects from becoming "mainstream". Non MMO gamers now attract the interest of MMO companies, and the core MMO gamers get nothing, and the non MMO gamers just get the same thing over and over.

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by elocke

The only thing that needs to change is endgame for the most part.  I like the WoW system of leveling, it's the endgame grind that gets old.  which leads me to saying Look for ArcheAge.  It looks to me like the game I've been wanting, a combo of UO with WoW basically. 

I am looking forward to Archeage too, it looks like it has the right mix, the freedom and complexity of a sandbox and the accessibility of a themepark MMO

God no. The WoW system of leveling is the most boring system to date. Do you seriously enjoy running from hub to hub by yourself following a dotted line to get 5 wolf tails over and over again?

I'd rather have an immersive world where the quests were something to get excited about, and a game that encouraged people to group up and explore. I can't get into ANY MMOs these days because they all have the same bs "walk up to the guy with the glowing mark over his head, click yes, follow to waypoint on map, kill 5 things, come back until level 50". It's monotonous, its anti social, its uninspired, it's boring.

Originally posted by kjempff

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

IMHO we need some innovative developer to break the MMORPG mold and finally abandon the much modified and somewhat copied models of EQ and moreso WoW.

Funny thing is, those two you mention has brought more invention to mmorps than any other mmorpg.

Uhhh...what? EQ brought a lot of new ideas to the table because it was the first 3D MMO.

WoW brought a grand total of 0 new inventions and ideas to the table. Sorry.

And no, MMOs of the past didn't copy EQ, they either did something completely different (SWG, AC) or heavily built upon it and created something entirely new and never before seen (DAoC). And guess what, they were successful for it, and grew over time.

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

 

When you really think about it, even RIFT is just the same old **** with a different wrapper.

To be honest, it doesn't take someone to really think about it. It just takes someone 2 minutes of playing the game. Same UI even.

Originally posted by Nobadeeftw

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Nobadeeftw

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Axehilt

The other games (WAR, Aion, AoC) had pretty clear reasons they failed.

Rift I don't really feel is failing.  It has some issues (and it has raiding) but no game is perfect and it's easily the best MMORPG release since WOW.

That's what people said about Aion, and WAR, and AoC. Rift is bleeding subs just like all the other WoW clones, because people have been there and done that already. The best MMO releases since WoW were probably Fallen Earth or Darkfall, games that actually grew AFTER launch.

Completely agree.  I have seen it happen over and over.  These over hyped games start off with a huge population, have a short 1 - 2 month growth period.  Then the majority of the population becomes increasingly bored with the product and it plumets dramatically.  I'll call Rift a success when it still has as many subs or more than it started with 2 years from now.  lol

Remember when MMORPGs used to reach their peak like, 2-3 years after launch? Man, the genre was good times back before 2004.

Me thinks that's because MMO's back then weren't part of pop culture.  Now that people from all walks of life are drawn to MMOs the expectactions of their subscribers has been drastically altered as a whole.

Yup. MMORPGs aren't really MMOs anymore, because online games aren't aimed at MMORPG gamers, they're aimed at casual folks that enjoy WoW and all those minigame arcade-y online time wasters. It's mainstream, so they appeal to the widest margin of people possible. There are more people out there that want simple time wasters than deep innovative social virtual worlds.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Slampig

WoW forums are ---------------->

 

And are we still at the point of calling people that play WoW names? All the people that cry about how much hand holding is going on and how people just can't handle the "SANDBOX" but will sit here and name call, like a bunch of children...

 

Whatever, you play what you want to play, let the rest of the people play what they want to play.

 

We'd love to play what we want to play. Do you have a time machine to go back to before the MMO market was saturated with only one type of game? (WoW clone)

I must have missed the news where all the sandbox games were closed down. MO? EVE? Ryzon?

What the market will  buy is something every one of us has control over and I won't be-grudge someone just because they like something I don't.

I don't really care for Jazz, but that doesn't mean I hate someone who likes jazz.

Who was talking about sandbox games? I was just talking about the MMO Golden Age. It had a lot more than one kind of game. And I didn't say anything regarding hating WoW players and other non MMO gamers. I simply resent the companies for not making MMORPGs for the core audience now. If those games were still being made by big companies, I'd be fine, there'd be something for everyone. Currently, that's not the case. MO is a pile of junk, Eve is 8 years old, and I never quite got into Ryzom considering how often its shut down and brought back different.

This game is not an MMO. Nor is it really Age of Empires. It has the worst features of both.

Or rather, it has bare bones AoE gameplay, layered with RPG gameplay that ruins balance and keeps you from playing with your friends. It's not worth wasting time on if you like Age of Empires. Its singleplayer "quests" are about 100 times worse than the campaigns with dialogue and cut scenes in old AoE games, and its mutliplayer is beyond broken.

It's AoE  + a grind. There's nothing MMORPG about this other than a few RPG elements. There's no virtual world, you never play with more than about 4 other people. If people are calling this an MMO than I guess its safe to say any game with a grind and RPG mechanics is now called an MMO. Oh, have we fallen so far?

Originally posted by Nobadeeftw

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Axehilt

The other games (WAR, Aion, AoC) had pretty clear reasons they failed.

Rift I don't really feel is failing.  It has some issues (and it has raiding) but no game is perfect and it's easily the best MMORPG release since WOW.

That's what people said about Aion, and WAR, and AoC. Rift is bleeding subs just like all the other WoW clones, because people have been there and done that already. The best MMO releases since WoW were probably Fallen Earth or Darkfall, games that actually grew AFTER launch.

Completely agree.  I have seen it happen over and over.  These over hyped games start off with a huge population, have a short 1 - 2 month growth period.  Then the majority of the population becomes increasingly bored with the product and it plumets dramatically.  I'll call Rift a success when it still has as many subs or more than it started with 2 years from now.  lol

Remember when MMORPGs used to reach their peak like, 2-3 years after launch? Man, the genre was good times back before 2004.

Originally posted by Maaku

Playing Rift right now and not planning on stopping any time soon. Great game given what else is out there ((My opinion, take it or leave it)).  I'd love to get me some AoC action but the servers connection sucks from asia so, not happening. Besides that, I do play some Dragron Nest on the side with a few friends and it's cool but nothing that will keep me interested for long I think.

 

Rift gives me everything I want from an mmo right now in a really nice looking package.

It gave you Warcraft with less features?

That's what happens when a game releases with the exact same gameplay, features, flaws, and UI of a game that was boring and outdated 6 years ago when it released.