Originally posted by Fariic

Originally posted by SignusM

 A barely functioning product, sad part is, people can't even use the "its in beta" excuse,  because they're paying to "test" the game, which is horribly sneaky and underhanded. Now they're basically saying "we're still a long way off from the real launch, hey devoted fans, advertise for us, we need more money from gullible fools!"

 

Hey,
What's up!

Didn't I talk to you once.
On the Darkfall forums.
Were you moderate.

Funny seeing you here.

Hey

What's up!

Didn't I tell you, already...

I'm not a moderator? 

There you go. 

I would have loved to see MO do well, lot of great ideas, I've wished them well many times, but its simply not true. They charged for their beta to try so suck up some money from their fans, it is a sneaky underhanded move, but maybe they didn't mean it to be a scam. The bottom line is, their product will not be in a finished state for another year or so, and charging for the current product is criminal. 
 

As always, wishing them luck. 

Originally posted by Irishoak

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by SignusM

Stopped reading here. You are indeed, clueless. 

 

Haha.  Whatever you say mate.  In order to understand an opponent, one must first understand oneself.

That doesn't even make sense in this situation. If you think that lack of innovation post WoW, had nothing to do with WoW, then you don't know ANYTHING about the history of the MMORPG industry.

 

The corporatization of the gaming industry had much more to do with it than any single game. If you want to blame WoW blame it for a reason more fitting, it was hugely successful and people's greed caused attempts to cash in on it.

 

Yes, and using English we say that... "WoW's impact on the industry, was negative". You can ham it up all you want but the bottom line of this entire thread is "WoW impact, good bad" and you JUST NOW said yourself, WoW caused deveopers to try to cash in on WoW by making bad clones of an already boring cloned game. Therefore, bad. 

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by SignusM

There were TONS of MMOs before WoW. And the features that those MMOs introduced pretty much set the standard for the industry. Almost every modern feature in the entire MMORPG industry you can trace back to these 4, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, and EverQuest. MMO industry has been going on since what, 1994 I believe. You honestly think there were "hardly any" MMORPGs before WoW? WoW is still a young child in the industry. Tell me , what new features have been invented by WoW? 

Yes, WoW is to blame. Their demographic is the casual audience, people who are impatient, many who are young, and people who want instant gratification. It's not always the case, but usually, when you make a shallow game to appeal to Halo kiddies, you get, immature people. And since appealing to this market, instead of the RPG market, is so vastly successful, other MMOs have followed suit with shallow games. 

No, they were not inclined to accept those games, that's why Anarchy Online was hardly played by anyone, and SWG was on the verge of shutting down, the ONLY thing that saved it from its HORRIBLE launch was the Star Wars name. People love Star Wars. And yeah, games nowadays have so much LESS in them in terms of mechanics that it must be easier to launch, sadly, this has not been the case, cause games STILL launch with horrible bugs and flaws and missing features (Age of Conan) no matter the standard. 

WoW clone? Games that play and feel exactly like WoW perhaps? Such as, having floating quest icons, and quest xp being the primary way to level up. No death penalty. High rate of experience gain and instant gratification. No real end game. Shallow instanced based PvP/raiding system. Oversaturation of quests. Focus on solo and casual play and not on RPG mechanics or socializing. Shallow crafting system. Need I go on? WoW wasn't so much an EQ clone, more of, WoW was a kiddie version of EverQuest, with everything from the world, to the mechanics, done smaller, simpler, easier, without any depth. 

No, I blame WoW for popularizing simple games that try to appeal to mass audience with things that don't really matter (flashy graphics, instant gratification, ect ect) and spend less time on the actual gameplay. More money is being put into advertising than making the game. 

When did I?

It doesn't stop at just non-MMO gamers, it extends to the same people that play Wii Fit. I have nothing against those people, and I have nothing against Wii Fit, because not all games in the entire genre have turned into Wii Fit clones. The MMORPG genre however, has turned into a market of simple WoW clones and leaves none for the people that where here when the genre was created, the MMORPG gamers. WoW uses the addictive tendencies of EQ, without ANY of the penalties for screwing up, and targets people who have never touched an online game (many times, haven't touched ANY game) because they know those simple people may have been turned off by losing something upon death, and want to provide a game that is just simple casual mindless happy gathering loot and gaining levels that mean nothing, because the leveling up system is, addictive. Again, nothing wrong with a game for casual gamers, but it doesn't stop there. Those casual gamers, usually don't have any idea an MMORPG genre even exists. I had one WoW player who told me she thought WoW was a game some guy made and runs from ONE computer and had never heard of MMORPGs before. Then the people who DO know what an MMO is, go around saying how WoW is the best thing ever, and the most innovative thing ever in the world ever!!111! It's annoying, and other companies have tried to loop in that casual market, and so us real gamers, suffer. 

There, enjoy that. 

 

1.  I never said that WoW was "innovative" but your implication is that innovation has gone down because of WoW's introduction.  Which is in fact wrong.  WoW had nothing to do with that.

 

Stopped reading here. You are indeed, clueless. 

Ight so your blaming WoW for having a negative effect on the mmo market. Fine thats your opinion and its just as valid as mine but lets take a moment to think here shall we. If WoW didn't come along the mmo genre would most likely be dead. It still be here but there wouldn't be much effort in developing new games because before WoW there wasn't a ton of money in the market. 

What? Not a ton of money? What do you call EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelots 300k+ subscribers? That's more than most games have now, and they cost LESS to produce back then. It is not my "opinion" that the market has stagnated since the launch of WoW, or that the amount of innovative features/games have GREATLY declined since then, it is my opinion that these facts are bad things. You, however, do not see them as bad things. 

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by SignusM

Stopped reading here. You are indeed, clueless. 

 

Haha.  Whatever you say mate.  In order to understand an opponent, one must first understand oneself.

That doesn't even make sense in this situation. If you think that lack of innovation post WoW, had nothing to do with WoW, then you don't know ANYTHING about the history of the MMORPG industry.

Originally posted by dstar.

The only MMOs I've had successful returns to have been Ultima Online, Planetside and WoW.  Returning to games such as AO, AC, DAOC, EQ just never worked out for me for some reason.

It's because those old games are totally unsupported by their original companies, or patched to resemble WoW and have nothing to do with their former selves anymore. 

 Eh, there are great RPG and action games on the Wii, it's not just a "kiddie console" but finding games with great graphics on the Wii is a bit harder. So whatever, your choice 

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by SignusM

There were TONS of MMOs before WoW. And the features that those MMOs introduced pretty much set the standard for the industry. Almost every modern feature in the entire MMORPG industry you can trace back to these 4, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, and EverQuest. MMO industry has been going on since what, 1994 I believe. You honestly think there were "hardly any" MMORPGs before WoW? WoW is still a young child in the industry. Tell me , what new features have been invented by WoW? 

Yes, WoW is to blame. Their demographic is the casual audience, people who are impatient, many who are young, and people who want instant gratification. It's not always the case, but usually, when you make a shallow game to appeal to Halo kiddies, you get, immature people. And since appealing to this market, instead of the RPG market, is so vastly successful, other MMOs have followed suit with shallow games. 

No, they were not inclined to accept those games, that's why Anarchy Online was hardly played by anyone, and SWG was on the verge of shutting down, the ONLY thing that saved it from its HORRIBLE launch was the Star Wars name. People love Star Wars. And yeah, games nowadays have so much LESS in them in terms of mechanics that it must be easier to launch, sadly, this has not been the case, cause games STILL launch with horrible bugs and flaws and missing features (Age of Conan) no matter the standard. 

WoW clone? Games that play and feel exactly like WoW perhaps? Such as, having floating quest icons, and quest xp being the primary way to level up. No death penalty. High rate of experience gain and instant gratification. No real end game. Shallow instanced based PvP/raiding system. Oversaturation of quests. Focus on solo and casual play and not on RPG mechanics or socializing. Shallow crafting system. Need I go on? WoW wasn't so much an EQ clone, more of, WoW was a kiddie version of EverQuest, with everything from the world, to the mechanics, done smaller, simpler, easier, without any depth. 

No, I blame WoW for popularizing simple games that try to appeal to mass audience with things that don't really matter (flashy graphics, instant gratification, ect ect) and spend less time on the actual gameplay. More money is being put into advertising than making the game. 

When did I?

It doesn't stop at just non-MMO gamers, it extends to the same people that play Wii Fit. I have nothing against those people, and I have nothing against Wii Fit, because not all games in the entire genre have turned into Wii Fit clones. The MMORPG genre however, has turned into a market of simple WoW clones and leaves none for the people that where here when the genre was created, the MMORPG gamers. WoW uses the addictive tendencies of EQ, without ANY of the penalties for screwing up, and targets people who have never touched an online game (many times, haven't touched ANY game) because they know those simple people may have been turned off by losing something upon death, and want to provide a game that is just simple casual mindless happy gathering loot and gaining levels that mean nothing, because the leveling up system is, addictive. Again, nothing wrong with a game for casual gamers, but it doesn't stop there. Those casual gamers, usually don't have any idea an MMORPG genre even exists. I had one WoW player who told me she thought WoW was a game some guy made and runs from ONE computer and had never heard of MMORPGs before. Then the people who DO know what an MMO is, go around saying how WoW is the best thing ever, and the most innovative thing ever in the world ever!!111! It's annoying, and other companies have tried to loop in that casual market, and so us real gamers, suffer. 

There, enjoy that. 

 

1.  I never said that WoW was "innovative" but your implication is that innovation has gone down because of WoW's introduction.  Which is in fact wrong.  WoW had nothing to do with that.

 

Stopped reading here. You are indeed, clueless. 

 PC for RTS, MMORPG, FPS, sims, Wii for everything else. A lot of great first party games coming out for the Wii and some third party ones. Also great party games, as per usual. Mario Galaxy 2, Zelda Wii, Metroid, Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Dead Space, Red Steel 2, Pikmin 3, ect ect. No other console really worth owning if you have a PC already. 

Originally posted by chouming

Originally posted by SignusM

 Those who say "WoW brought tons of new players to the industry, and they're all playing WoW, you're not, what do you care" Seems some people just don't understand what "impact on industry" means. 

 

Let's see... so the now "casual friendly" games are not your cup of tea, therefore, the industry suck?

 

Yup, another person who just doesn't understand. Take your favorite game, your FAVORITE game, from your FAVORITE genre. Now imagine another game came along in that same genre, and it was such a runaway success, that the company that ran your game patched theirs to match the successful one, driving away all their customers. You leave cause theres no one left to play with, you search for another game similar to the one you like, and they simply don't exist any more. You try other games, but they all play exactly the same. You went from a wealth of choices in your genre, to no games at all that suit your play style. That's a "good impact", yes?

Now this new game that people are raving about, it is hardly an (favorite genre) at all, and hardly has any of the gameplay mechanics that other games in the genre had. All these people clamor over the game and praise it, saying its such a good (favorite genre). You say "But it isn't one of those!" Those fans then call you an elitist and tell you to bugger off. These new folks claim to be (favorite genre) fans, but they've never played one of that genre in their life, or they did and didn't like it, and are now telling you to find a new favorite genre. 

 Those who say "WoW brought tons of new players to the industry, and they're all playing WoW, you're not, what do you care" Seems some people just don't understand what "impact on industry" means. 

Originally posted by Xondar123

The "Enemies are incredibly stupid" mechanic that allows for tanks and damage dealer. An intelligent AI would never attack the tank, they would go straight for the guy that's hurting him the most.

Darkfall has that

Originally posted by hoopty

I want to know is this game better than Darkfall?

This game hardly functions and most of the basic mechanics aren't even in yet, and they're charging people to try beta. So, no. 

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by SignusM

 No one can argue with a straight face that it's had a good effect on the industry. All you need to do is compare the amount of innovation, the maturity level, and the different type of games pre WoW, to the ones post WoW. 

 

Pre WoW you had a largely varied genre with a large number of high quality unique games that devs put their heart and soul into and steadily grew over the years. 

 

Post WoW, you have massively overproduced gimmick MMO's that are 95% WoW clone, and don't even have some of the features that games from 2000 had. PvP game from 2001 made with 30 people, max amount of people fighting at once before slow down - 600. 

 

PvP game from 2007-8  with about a hundred developers and a marketing budget bigger than the entire budget of aforementioned game, max number of people in combat before lag - capped at 40 in an instanced zone. 

 

WoW appeals to non gamers, which is why it is popular. It is a well polished, mind numbingly simple game.  It mainstreamed the industry, brought a lot of non gamers into it. Which is nice and all, but now the people who loved the industry  are left with nothing, whereas casual gamers had their own MMOs before WoW, now we have non after WoW :/

1. Innovation pre-WoW?  Seriously?  There wasn't that many MMO's out before WoW to make such insinuations that there was great innovation occuring before WoW.  In fact there's probably more MMO's out now than there has ever been.  And the majority that did release prior to WoW are still going to this day.  So in actual fact, given the choice we have today, WoW has helped the industry.

There were TONS of MMOs before WoW. And the features that those MMOs introduced pretty much set the standard for the industry. Almost every modern feature in the entire MMORPG industry you can trace back to these 4, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, and EverQuest. MMO industry has been going on since what, 1994 I believe. You honestly think there were "hardly any" MMORPGs before WoW? WoW is still a young child in the industry. Tell me , what new features have been invented by WoW? 

2.  WoW is not to blame for the maturity level of players.  

Yes, WoW is to blame. Their demographic is the casual audience, people who are impatient, many who are young, and people who want instant gratification. It's not always the case, but usually, when you make a shallow game to appeal to Halo kiddies, you get, immature people. And since appealing to this market, instead of the RPG market, is so vastly successful, other MMOs have followed suit with shallow games. 

3.  Quality games pre-WoW?  Seriously?  You call SWG at launch or EQ2 (which technically launched prior to WoW) quality games when they ran like pants and lagged everywhere?  Another case in point:  Anarchy Online's launch.   The Quality didn't degrade.  Only the publics level of acceptance changed in terms of quality.  Before WoW, people were more inclined to accept SWG's or Anarchy Onlines lag because we didn't know it could be any better.

No, they were not inclined to accept those games, that's why Anarchy Online was hardly played by anyone, and SWG was on the verge of shutting down, the ONLY thing that saved it from its HORRIBLE launch was the Star Wars name. People love Star Wars. And yeah, games nowadays have so much LESS in them in terms of mechanics that it must be easier to launch, sadly, this has not been the case, cause games STILL launch with horrible bugs and flaws and missing features (Age of Conan) no matter the standard. 

4.  What exactly would you class as being elements that are indicative of a WoW Clone?  A usable UI perhaps?  Swords and Sorcery perhaps?  If anything, WoW is an EQ clone.  And I bet you won't subscribe to THAT ideal.

WoW clone? Games that play and feel exactly like WoW perhaps? Such as, having floating quest icons, and quest xp being the primary way to level up. No death penalty. High rate of experience gain and instant gratification. No real end game. Shallow instanced based PvP/raiding system. Oversaturation of quests. Focus on solo and casual play and not on RPG mechanics or socializing. Shallow crafting system. Need I go on? WoW wasn't so much an EQ clone, more of, WoW was a kiddie version of EverQuest, with everything from the world, to the mechanics, done smaller, simpler, easier, without any depth. 

5.  Please don't tell me you blame WoW for lag in MMO games.  

No, I blame WoW for popularizing simple games that try to appeal to mass audience with things that don't really matter (flashy graphics, instant gratification, ect ect) and spend less time on the actual gameplay. More money is being put into advertising than making the game. 

 

6.  Overheads and salaries have increased MANY times since 2000.  You can't blame budgets on WoW.

When did I?

7. Non gamers?  You mean non-MMO gamers don't you if you really want to be any more elitist.

It doesn't stop at just non-MMO gamers, it extends to the same people that play Wii Fit. I have nothing against those people, and I have nothing against Wii Fit, because not all games in the entire genre have turned into Wii Fit clones. The MMORPG genre however, has turned into a market of simple WoW clones and leaves none for the people that where here when the genre was created, the MMORPG gamers. WoW uses the addictive tendencies of EQ, without ANY of the penalties for screwing up, and targets people who have never touched an online game (many times, haven't touched ANY game) because they know those simple people may have been turned off by losing something upon death, and want to provide a game that is just simple casual mindless happy gathering loot and gaining levels that mean nothing, because the leveling up system is, addictive. Again, nothing wrong with a game for casual gamers, but it doesn't stop there. Those casual gamers, usually don't have any idea an MMORPG genre even exists. I had one WoW player who told me she thought WoW was a game some guy made and runs from ONE computer and had never heard of MMORPGs before. Then the people who DO know what an MMO is, go around saying how WoW is the best thing ever, and the most innovative thing ever in the world ever!!111! It's annoying, and other companies have tried to loop in that casual market, and so us real gamers, suffer. 

There, enjoy that. 

Originally posted by Zarobien

I think Aion was the second biggest mmo in Asia last year. Biggest was still WoW. Both of them where way ahead of all others.

In europe Aion wasnt lauched yeat but theres big subscriber numbers posted this year. I'm quessing Aion will take the 2nd biggest mmo place worldwide for 2010.

Eve Online isnt even near those two but it holds nicely when you compare it to other space or scifi mmos.

Not so, WoW lost all its Chinese subscribers earlier, lost about 8 million subs.  

Originally posted by Elikal

Sitting down and waiting for your mana regen. I mean who the F*** is enjoying sitting down and doing nothing? If I wanted to relax, I'd join a granny's knitting circle!

MMOs need down time. Solo its annoying, but it is useful for a variety of other reasons, adding strategy to combat, giving time for groups to socialize, give incentive for people to group, lots of good stuff.

Also, nothing is wrong with good raiding. WoW does NOT have good raiding. DAoC had a great raiding system. 

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by Irishoak

WoW is a high quality product, it has production values rarely seen in other MMOs. Now whether it is to your taste or not, that is entirely subjective. As in, an opine. To suggest people who like WoW are not able to fashion an opinion about MMOs is a bit self-serving and egotistic.

Let's compare WoW to the movie industry.  WoW is the Michael Bay movie of gaming.  Big budget, shitty story with awful dialogue that idiots can understand, lots of shiny expensive special effects.  Sure it can be entertaining, but it lacks substance.  It lacks the intricacies of a good story.

WoW is a polished turd, that's about it. 

Agreed. 

Those saying "WoW is a good game, of course that's a good impact." You're kind of ignoring the question. We're not talking about whether or not you like WoW. We're talking about what you think it did for the industry as a whole. And what it did, was (borrowing from the movie metaphor) is make it so that every single "movie" that has come out since WoW, has been Transformers 2, a flashy special effects movie with absolutely no substance. Worse, a KNOCK OFF, of a cheap special effects movie (think Meet the Spartans, or Scary Movie 4) 

Originally posted by crictor

I think positive for sure. Wow took a fun aspect of other games and perfected it. I personally love collecting new items and battling through well thought out and planned raid content

Those ideas were already present in other MMOs long long LONG before WoW... WoW took the addictive part of other MMOs and made them mind numbingly simple so that non gamers and little kids could get into the game. Simple as that. That's not "perfection" unless you're the one getting money. 

Originally posted by googajoob7

We all know WoW can boast players in the millions still but which pay to play mmo comes in second place ( talking world wide numbers here and has to be released in the west ) .

There are a few Asian MMOs that have higher sub rate than WoW. WoW kind of fibs a bit on how many subscribers they have. The zeneth of WoW's reign has passed. Aside from them, hmm, some Asian MMO probably, theres bucket loads of them. 

Originally posted by Legato89

Originally posted by Balkin31

 

Mortsal Online lifted thier NDA today!

 

Enjoy!

 http://www.mortalonline.com/news/nda

 

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/27227-lifting-nda.html

 

What the hell is Mortsal Online?

An Indie MMO with a lot of great ideas that just did not have the funds or the skill to implement any of them. 

 Focus on Econ? Eve. Easy. I don't really like the game but it's practically a real world market.