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All Posts by Keyh

All Posts by Keyh

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106 posts found
I have $895 pledged to Star Citizen over the years :(.

Star Conflict is a solid time waster. Unless they've changed it though, the pacing becomes absolutely terrible after the second tier of ships. All of the ships at that point were damage sponges and it took forever to kill someone.

Originally posted by Doomedfox
I can see how it could have sounded judgmental however i only wanted to point out that you can do everything without the DPS meter so the real only use is to feel good if you have the top spot which you most of the time can only get if you play for it and not for the team.

I also didnt say to ban it completly like i tried to say with the Ranking system used on Dummies.

I would agree with your sentiment that you want to be left alone to play as you want and the other should play as they want IF that would be possible.

As soon as you have such a tool its hard to not be forced to submit to it wanna join a random group first thing you are asked is your DPS/HPS.

Its not possible to not be part of it unless you find a Guild and only play with them.

I also explained how we managed to max out our classes just by playing with others and why would you not use the combat log if you really only want to know if you became better? If its really only for you the few minutes it would take can not be too much can it?

I totally agree with you that not everyone who wants a DPS meter is an asshole and that not everyone who doesnt want one is a bad player, however if you would not have a dps meter you would not have any assholes because of it but you still would be able to filter out the bad players and help them improve.

So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it. Thats all there is to it if adding the system would add something to the game that could not be archieved otherwise and therefore even out the negative things it adds it would be different but thats not the case for DPS meters.

Maybe improve it have it tell you how often you pulled hate how much healing had to be wasted cause of your top spot in dps how many support abilities did you use over the fight record all that and give a score for that and than Join pts based on Group Value rather than pure dps. Sure it will have drawbacks like a pure DPS meter but it would be a start at least. 

The only problem I could see with the training dummies thing is that it lacks context. Getting a rotation down on a stationary thing that doesn't fight back and has no threat list is different from being able to do it with a boss with mechanics.

Most of your points are fair but I disagree with them. I feel the need to argue with "So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it." is an unfair statement. Parsers/Meters help foster theorycrafting communities. I realize that people against DPS Meters don't care, but the theorycrafting meta-game is a lot of fun to some people, and being able to provide objective information on specs, rotations, classes, abilities, equipment, etc, is important.

I would _love_ for there to be a system that accurately reflects every aspect of a player's skill and posts scores at the end of the dungeon for that. I would play every support class possible and make people invincible/one shot bosses, it would be great. If you can find a way to do that, do a Kickstarter and I'll pledge lol.

 

Originally posted by Wraithone

Normally, I'd totally agree with you. That tends to be a reasonable approach to some issues.  But from painful experience, this isn't one of those situations.  If DPS meters exist, they (from my past experience) WILL not only be abused, but will eventually become mandatory.  Its an aspect of human nature.  In an ideal system, you could play your way, and I (and others) could play our way.  But this is much less than an ideal system.  I don't like the position I'm taking, but any positives to be had from this course of action, do not (to my mind) balance the negatives.

Maybe I just don't understand this. There is clearly, in this topic at least, more people that are against DPS meters than there are people for them. If this is at least at least a reasonably accurate sample size, you have people that you can friend, guild, w/e with. Do you guys not join guilds? Do you prefer just jumping into PUGs? I can see not wasting time with a raiding guild, but playing with the same people all of the time is much more entertaining than queuing up and playing with strangers that you don't talk to.

 

 

Originally posted by Doomedfox
Originally posted by Keyh
Originally posted by Doomedfox

I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.

The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.

I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.

If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.

We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.

Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.

DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.

They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.

That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well. 

 

Yay for baseless generalizations.

So let's get this straight then:

 

People for DPS meters are elitist assholes that don't care about teamwork and the only thing that they pay attention to is where they are on the DPS meter.

People against DPS meters are terrible players that ride the coattails of everyone else and are afraid of getting kicked from a group, or held to any reasonable amount of standards.

 

I'm so glad this discussion has devolved into ad hominem arguments. Where's the OP at? He seemed like a reasonable anti-meter person.

I do believe that players who focus with ranking first do not care much for team play yes.

However i did not Judge them at all neither did i Judge ppl who dont want a DPS meter i even offered an idea how everyone cold get what he needs.

I pointed out that the DPS Meter really isnt needed at all to play good since you can archive that without it as well and in my opinion in a better atmosphere.

Your comment was nothing more than a baseless attack towards my post without offering anything.

So tell me than what for do you need a DPS meter what can you not archive if you leave it out?

Tell me do you believe Fighting for top spots in a pointless addon is forming a better community?

Do you believe we should just leave all to a DPS meter and some builds we find somewhere over Google to play the game instead of experimenting with Guild mates and having fun?

 

 

You said:

"The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay."

How is saying that people that use DPS meters ignore teamplay not a judgement? You may have meant to point out that there are people that care only about the #1 spot and ignore teamplay in order to reach it. But that's not what you implied by saying that the only thing DPS meters are good for is ignoring teamplay.

You're right, a DPS meter is not required to play well. It's also not required in order to be an elitist jerk or asshole to everyone. I'm not sure what you mean by "archive without it". I'd imagine you mean combat logs, and I'm not going to read through a combat log myself to find out what my DPS is whenever a program can do that for me.

Your right, my comment was an attack (not baseless) on the parroting of the same points that have been brought up by several other posters which have been "refuted" or at least argued against by myself and a few others with no responses to those arguments.

Yes, I do believe that fighting for top spots on this "pointless" add-on builds community. It helps build the min/maxer community greatly. Just because it's not a part of the community that you care about, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fostered.

No I don't. But I also don't think that we should ban a tool that helps foster a particular playstyle because of fear of "backlash" from a subsection of that section of the community.

 

I have frequently played with friends/guildmates that are terrible at MMOs, terrible DPS, terrible at tanking, terrible at healing. But we're friends/guildmates who have a great time together, so we play together. I have had casuals in every raiding guild I've been a part of that weren't good, and we never gave them any shit for it when we were grouping together.

 

There are other people in the community that feel just as strongly about DPS meters as you. All I am asking is that you go and play with them, so I can go play with my elitist asshole friends with DPS meters in the way that I want to play. I'm asking to be left alone in my playstyle, and you're attacking it and trying to make it so that everyone plays the way you want to play.

Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Keyh

People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them.  I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.

 

Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.

Its this type of attitude that is responsible for many of us hating dps meters and the dog eat dog attitude that they foster.  Contrary to what some people appear to think, to many of us, this isn't some e peen competition, or a second job.  Its a source of entertainment, relaxation.  If I wanted to be on edge all the damn time, I'd go play some FFA full loot gank fest.

So, play that way. Nobody is stopping you from playing the way you want. You're trying to stop us from playing the way we want. I'm not sure how "You play your way, I'll play mine" is a "type of attitude" that makes you hate DPS meters.

Originally posted by Doomedfox

I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.

The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.

I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.

If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.

We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.

Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.

DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.

They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.

That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well. 

 

Yay for baseless generalizations.

So let's get this straight then:

 

People for DPS meters are elitist assholes that don't care about teamwork and the only thing that they pay attention to is where they are on the DPS meter.

People against DPS meters are terrible players that ride the coattails of everyone else and are afraid of getting kicked from a group, or held to any reasonable amount of standards.

 

I'm so glad this discussion has devolved into ad hominem arguments. Where's the OP at? He seemed like a reasonable anti-meter person.

Originally posted by Kayo83

 


Originally posted by itsTort
The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.


LOL! What a load. Ive never once had a problem with DPS yet I absolutely hate the drama that tool brings to PuGs especially. Every now and then you get some douche who starts harassing someone else not for 90% not for 10%, nor for 5%! Worst part? The run was going fine, no deaths, no wipes, until he opened his mouth. Many times by some dbag tank who everyone sides with because its another 20 minutes of queue time if he leaves. Bringing negativity to the entire group, wasting time that could be better spent by STFU and playing through.

 

So cut the crap. Maybe you only start your whining at -90% but most dont. Most not only do it at a much lower number but they do it in comparison to their own, to what they subjectively think someone elses DPS should be. Unless you'd like to link a developers reveal on what an expected minimum expected DPS is (which they designed the fight to be) on a boss on a class by class break down, there is no objective minimum DPS. The only time that tool is even REALLY necessary (and I say that lightly) is in Raids and personal use. Something that SE can easily limit in game to prevent the harassment that comes with it, at least with PuGs where its most common.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

 

You're assertion that "most don't" is udder bullshit, or you just play with terrible people (not terrible players, terrible people). In my reasonably long time in playing MMOs, mainly EQ2 since launch, I have been in 3 groups where a person has been kicked based off of his performance on a parser. 1 of them was after wiping 3 times to the first boss of a dungeon, 1 of them was because he was only autoattacking, and 1 of them I kicked because he was ninja afking and fought in less than half of the fights and we were having a rough time because of it.

I'm not sure what game you're describing here (WoW I'm sure) but that is a community issue, not an issue with DPS meters. These people would be assholes in some other way if they didn't have DPS meters.

 


Originally posted by itsTort
As a very avid raider of WoW, TERA, AoC, Warhammer, etc, and knowing about AF armors/raids/etc in FF11, I really hope that there will be some type of DPS meter. 
I mean, I know that there will be a DPS parser, but I would be hoping for an in game add-on, to prevent alt-tabbing. I know many people just flat out don't care about how well they do, but I personally like to watch as I improve. I'm not sure why you would wish away a 100% optional feature, that affects you in no way what so ever, except, to show you if you are doing something wrong or not. 

 

Its funny how with all your super awesome extensive experiences with MMO's and raiding youre still so eager for a tool that only actually shows a fraction of what makes a good player. Not surprising though, as its common knowledge that this over dependence on DPS meters has people thinking that the only thing that matters now is what that "tool" says.

 

That's probably because it's a tool that shows the fraction of what makes a good player that is difficult to determine otherwise.

People who top the DPS meter at the expense of dying or pulling aggro are just as bad as those that do less damage than the healer.

 

There are bad players that are against DPS meters and there are bad players that are for DPS meters. They're bad in different ways (sometimes), but they're bad none-the-less.

There are also people that use DPS meters that are decent people and ones that are assholes. I realize that your experiences in whatever terrible community you were in  lean you towards being against DPS meters. However, I ensure you that DPS meters alone do not ruin communities. The People do.

 

Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by Keyh
Originally posted by Alberel
DPS meters actively encourage players to take stupid risks in order to better their DPS score. Yes it depends on the player but DPS meters essentially discourage a team focus and make everything about personal gain. It also causes tunnel vision on the 'rotation' making players blind to what's going on around them.

It just makes it TOO tempting for a lot of players to push their luck that bit further to get a higher score... usually at the cost of them getting killed or often wiping the group.

 

And those idiots would be idiots somehow else without the DPS meters.

Idiots are idiots, bad people are bad, elitists are elitists, et cetera no matter whether there are DPS meters in the game or not.

And that's a reason to just sit back and do nothing? Just let them carry on?

If someone had a stick and kept hitting you on the head with it would you not take the stick away? Sure they could go find something else to annoy you with but at least that would be one less thing... By your argument you'd just sit there and let them keep bashing you over the head...

 

No, I'd remove myself from his presence. That is the intelligent thing to do. Not ban everybody from being able to pick up sticks like you're doing in this metaphor.

Originally posted by Alberel
DPS meters actively encourage players to take stupid risks in order to better their DPS score. Yes it depends on the player but DPS meters essentially discourage a team focus and make everything about personal gain. It also causes tunnel vision on the 'rotation' making players blind to what's going on around them.

It just makes it TOO tempting for a lot of players to push their luck that bit further to get a higher score... usually at the cost of them getting killed or often wiping the group.

 

And those idiots would be idiots somehow else without the DPS meters.

Idiots are idiots, bad people are bad, elitists are elitists, et cetera no matter whether there are DPS meters in the game or not.

Originally posted by Ikeda

I've noticed that all the people replying in favor of meters do so because "it's a competition" or "to better themselves" or "to get that extra 5%".  

This is a game.  The turning of the game into a competition is ruining MY game.  There was a funny comic at the front that said it the best.  I want to have fun.  I want to relax.  Yea I want to work to kill something but I also don't want to have to devote my life to gameplay for me to be involved and have fun.

I'm sorry, I'm a grown up.  I don't get a summer vacation and sleeping until 10 every day so I can Raid with my buddies until  4-5 in the morning.

Meters, as previously stated so many times, are a slippery slope that ruin games.  They establish a number that is use SPECIFICALLY to group people into wanted/not wanted categories.  The IDEA of them is awesome, but the reality of the situation is people aren't grown up enough/mature enough to warrant them.  Just like GS.  I liked the idea of Gear Score.  It gave me a rough idea of what I wanted/needed and where I should take my characters as far as progression went.  Then it became a "you can't go unless your GS is xxxxx"  nevermind that my GS was xxxxx-2.  Or that in order to get BETTER gear you had to participate in Raids.

TLDR:  Meters aren't bad, people are bad.  Until you fix people, you shouldn't have meters.

 

...and you don't have to play it competitively, or with people who are playing it competitively. If you want to piss around, then go piss around and have fun. I do that too sometimes. I'm not forcing you to use a DPS meter, you shouldn't be trying to prevent me from using one.

You guys act like if you're doing 1,000 dps instead of 1,100 dps that you'll get kicked from groups. If that is the case, "forget" them, who would want to group with people like that anyway? Find a "casual" guild if you're worried about idiots in PUGs.

It's almost certainly going to be different, the question becomes "how different".

 

Before it was announced that Rift was going F2P and AA was still sub based in Korea, I would've said that AA was definitely going to be sub based.

 

Now, I'm leaning towards a F2P model, but I'm sure it will be different from that one. Most likely some sort of cash shop with sub options or something.

Originally posted by rhavok
Originally posted by Keyh

People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them.  I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. 

 

 

As someone who likes to run and compete in races I can somewhat understand this.  I am very competitive against myself and I love the feeling of shaving a second or two off my 5k and 10k times.  So I can understand where you are coming from there and respect that.

I guess my concern is that they tend to shift focus the game from the community itself to the player instead.  I guess though that is more on the fault of the players though.  Perhaps my concern is more against the selfish elitists players that tend to use the meters and would rather call someone's post pointless and insult someone they don't even know for having a differing opinion than theirs rather than being constructive.

That's a fair assumption as our friend with the "pointless post" post pointed out, the issue is with the players, and those players will find some way of insulting people because that's who they are.

Typically, you can always find some guild with like minded players that will allow you to play without that kind of asshattery/criticism. Being someone who likes DPS meters, I don't like whenever people call for them to be banned/taken away because of a bunch of assholes that I want nothing to do with.

Originally posted by Betaguy
I hope there is some sort of mods, I hate guildies riding coat tails of others who play hard while they do nothing to contribute but more strain and collect phat lootz. Mods help cut the fat.

_Mods_ (Quest Helper, GTFO, etc)  help the fat stay.

DPS Meters help trim the fat

Originally posted by Xilfie

If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class.  Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.

 

As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!

 

 

Way to represent sir. That'll get them over to our cause...

People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them.  I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.

 

Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.

I think I recall that they said it was based off of Lars Butler in one of the Livestreams (CEO of Trion Worlds). No idea which one though.

 

Edit:

Lars:

 

Yeah... don't believe everything you hear.

 

If you like what you played, you're probably going to enjoy it.

 

But I wouldn't expect anything more than just more of the same. I'd confirm whether or not I'm in Alpha but I can't. If you catch my drift.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/572/view/forums/thread/377387/Review-by-a-level-50.html

There are a few things that are not "ideal" to put it lightly.

I play Dragon on Grim, and we have, at most around 2 and a half groups (at least, in the last week, that's the most I've seen anytime I go in). Last night whenever I went in there were 6 people (including me) one time, and 3 people (including me) the other. Loomies are at 9999 for the week for it, with Temps at 3k.

 

The main problem is there's not much you can get done with less than a group. Kill 10 Players  and Capture Anima Well will both take you around 15 minutes, and then you have no reason to be there for another 20-30 minutes.

This results in, at least for Dragons on Grim, people popping in, finishing those quests (or not) and leaving, so we typically don't have enough people to take a facility.

 

A smaller problem is a lack of individual/participatory rewards for holding a facility. Sure, you save your buff, but I would rather see something given to people actually there defending it.

 

At the very least, they should have enough (Rewards, Fun, something) in there that an entire play session in there would not go to waste. In my opinion this means more quests in there, with more rewards, that maybe take longer to finish and have a longer cooldown.

Except it is levels, but, as the OP states, your level is dictated by your gear, not just how much XP you have.

 

Character Progression is really a very shallow, mostly horizontal progression system, yes. If you just look at that, it is a, relatively "levelless" MMO.

 

However, the gear system is tiered into 2 different progression types (like all MMOs). 1 is the Quality level, which dictates your combat "level", and rarity which dictates how strong you are at that level.

 

If all greens, blues, or prurples were basically the same stats within their color (i.e. no difference between a 'QL1' and 'QL9' weapon), I would agree that it was a levelless system.

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