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All Posts by Lokero

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Originally posted by OhhPaigey
Posted already? http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6662405#6662405

Uh-oh, MikeB...  I think it's time for you to walk up to that garrett, slap him with a glove, and settle this with a good, old-fashioned "put him in his place" duel.

Originally posted by Vutar
I used to be back when guilds mattered. These days guilds have been rendered useless in most mmorpgs so they are more hassle than they are worth.

I think this is part of the problem.  Also, most guilds nowadays will just invite anyone.  I've lost count of how many "500+ members!" guilds I've seen.

It seems most people who are in a guild and content are in guilds that formed in old MMOs years and years ago and stuck together over the years.

I've been in a couple decent guilds, here and there, but nothing lasting. 

Full disclosure:  I'm extremely picky and have low tolerance for ignorant, childish college kids.  I guess that doesn't help with finding a long-term group of people.

Originally posted by Velocinox

Sorry, but any depiction of 19th century Native Americans would either be Eurocentric crocodile tears with a disturbing hint of 'we won' at the end, or an overly dramatic mass apology that would be less a game and more a sad attempt at video game restitution.

 

If the title were to occur before the mass European influence and highlighted the interaction between tribes as it was before the invasion, then it would celebrate the various cultures without any hint of 'look how powerful we are' implications.

 

The best way to honor these people in a game is to show how great they were without us, not how great we were in destroying them, even if it's done as an apology.

That's exactly how it should be done.  If you made an American Indian MMO in a pre-European settler era, then there would be plenty of great material and content.  Plenty of diversity, plenty of skills, plenty of landscapes and lore and mythology, etc.

In reality, you could include the very, very early European settlers along the east coast without too much trouble or offensiveness.  The tribes often had relations and trade with those guys back in the early days.

Think of all the background both in passed down records among the various tribes, the archaeological sites, etc., that is available from way up with the Inuits/Eskimos down to the Aztecs/Mayans and beyond.  You could even go so far down as to include the natives of the rainforests down in S. America.

There's just so much there that could be implemented into a very deep(both historically and for gameplay) game.

Igloos and kayaks, temples and pyramids, cities built into cliff faces, huts in the jungle, and so on.

Beyond tribal warfare and clashes, you had so much wildlife that adds to things.  The Americas are just jam-packed with natural diversity in so many ways.

Granted, if I remember my history correctly, there were no horses or pigs in the Americas prior to the Spanish explorers(?), so it'd be a trick to try and fit horses in properly and such.

I mean they really did have it all in the Americas, for gameplay: hunting, fishing, farming, combat, mythos, spiritualism/shamanism, city-building, etc.  Heck, they even had ball games that some of the native cultures used to play.

You also had the more modern-day controversialities that devs could touch on(if they were feeling so brave):  Sky-people, gods, human sacrifice, raids, astrology, and so on.

If anyone ever decided to make cultural-style MMOs, pretty much every continent is oozing with this kind of stuff.

Crafting game
LFGame « General Discussion
5/25/15 11:24:31 PM
Originally posted by Fangrim
Originally posted by eddieg50
Fallen earth might be a look see

I have to strongly disagree that FE has 'deep' crafting,at least when I tried it all it was was gather materials and click on a button and all it is is a time thing.I don't count gather click a button and wait 4 hours to make a rubber tyre as crafting...some may but it is just as bad as turn 100 ore into 50 bars that is the standard of most (shitty) mmorpg now.

Crafting should always have some risk of total failure imop.

I have to agree with this.  There's a big difference in being able to craft a lot of items and a 'deep' crafting system.

I haven't played FE since beta days, but back then it was just click and wait a while for the game to craft the item for you, then retrieve after the timer is done.

But if you just want to make tons of neat stuff and not worry about the actual process of crafting, FE might be worth a look, but I don't imagine the population is very high at all.

Sadly, there's not very many deep crafting games.

 

You could always check out Landmark if you are into voxel-building style of crafting.  It has the voxel building and a regular crafting system in it for making gear and such(but I don't think there's much depth to be found with that).  There isn't much else to the game though really.

The only crafting games that come to mind are all in development still.  Wurm Online is still often considered to be one of the deepest by alot of people, so I hope your expectations aren't very high ;)

I think it's safe to say that most of them have pretty cool worlds to explore.  But, most don't have much depth in the crafting/housing department.  Well, really, all of the offered games are lacking in some area, but great in another.

Character customization is a bit of a vague notion.  Do you mean builds, looks, skills/stats?

 

FF14 - 

...has a gorgeous world and pretty neat crafting system.  But, like some others have said, the world feels very... confined.

The zones are gorgeous and the level of detail is fantastic(heat blur in the desert, wind blowing, etc.), but the world does feel a little cramped and claustrophobic.  I don't think there are any actual underwater zones in this game... in fact, I don't remember if you could even jump or swim in this game?

The combat is a bit more slow-paced which seems to bother alot of people.  Frankly, I found it pretty fun, but it might depend what class you are currently playing and how many skills you have.

It has a fun separate system for the crafting classes that separates it from the combat side.  Even the fishing is somewhat fun compared to most games.

Dungeon groups seemed enjoyable when I played it and the community was solid.  I do remember alot of complaints about elitism at the upper end though.

Being able to switch to all classes on one character is pretty great and convenient.

Levelling up was fairly grindy and tedious back in the beginning, but hopefully they've remedied that somewhat by now.

Not one of the cheaper, freer games.  I don't know if you still have to pay the box price + a sub, but I assume you do.

I quit back before housing of any kind, so I don't have any useful comments on that.  I haven't played the game since it was fairly new.

Additional note:  You kind of get locked down by levels in this game...  You have to complete certain quests at certain levels to unlock things like mounts/airships for travel, etc., unless they changed that later on.

 

GW2 -

...also a very gorgeous and deep world to explore.  I mean, the environments are just bloody gorgeous, honestly.  The character models aren't quite as nice, though.  Tons of ways to alter the appearance of your character's gear though, which makes for some diversity.

Crafting is pretty mediocre once you figure out how it works(you "discover" recipes but it's really more of simply unlocking the same generic recipes all characters have.

The downside of GW2 is that once you've explored the world and seen everything, there's really nothing left to do other than grind, grind, grind one thing or another.  Some of the holiday events and stuff were pretty cool and added some unique stuff from time to time.

There was a fair amount of underwater content in this game also.  Quite a bit actually.  It's a big world with tons of stuff to see and marvel at.

I'm not sure how enjoyable the lower areas would be now, but when the game was new, and everyone was packed into the zones teaming up, it was a blast.  Last I played, most people just farmed the same few areas over and over though, except when there was some patch content in a different area.

No player housing at all.  Though, I seem to recall them mentioning guild halls in their upcoming expansion this year.

Combat is more action-style, and you don't have very many abilities at one time compared to most games, but the classes are pretty distinct and fun for the most part.  Changing weapons changes your abilities automatically to the ones tied to that particular weapon, which I didn't like very much, but it does give you alot of weapon choices.

I think there's still an upfront box cost, but there's no sub fee.

 

 

EQ2 -

... I think the drawback here is just the depleted population, honestly.  There's just not that many people.  And, frankly I hated the combat in this game, but the housing is fantastic.  It's instanced though, but still some of the best housing out there, I think.  So many customizations you can do to a house.  This game still has pretty poor PC performance too(and always will) compared to other games.  People often touted the crafting in this game, and it's not bad, but it's not amazing either from my experience.  You can make a heck of alot of stuff, even furniture for your house, etc., but the crafting "mini-game" itself was kind of bland.

 

I never bothered with many of the newer games, so can't comment on those(ESO, AA, etc.).

 

Both GW2 and FF14 suffered from "event circling" where people would just run around in circles from event to event that would pop up to grind money/exp.

For a beautiful world to explore I'd definitely recommend either FF14 or GW2(no sub so you can pop in as often as you want after the box purchase).  FF14's invisible walls might be a deal-breaker, but it really is a gorgeous, detail-rich landscape and great atmospherics.  Both of those have healthy populations and decent enough playerbases, last I knew.  Both also have a personal story quest type thing to add some background lore.

Also, LOTRO had a pretty neat world, but I didn't play it very much, so I don't know much about the depth.

I think most people just look for the best bang-for-the-buck when deciding which to get.  Most people aren't going to spend 500+ on one of the top end cards, so it becomes a chess match in the low-mid range of cards.

It just depends who has the best quality for the cash at the time you are looking, usually.

Personally, I always look for Nvidia because I've just found them much more reliable. But if AMD has a great offering at the right time, I'd still consider it.

My current creed is to find one that runs cool and doesn't sound like a jet engine.  The newer generations that come out always have that problem until they later release the cheaper mid-range, better optimized versions of them down the road.

It's not the first time their subs have suffered from a sharp decline and probably won't be the last.

 

I think the Token system is probably good for the population.  Though, I'm not sure how they factor that into their statistics.

The WoW population dips and rises before/after every expansion, so I don't see it as them having much of a problem.  Given how flooded the market is now with MMOs and how old the game is, the amount of subs they still have is pretty amazing.

I can't comment on ways to make the game more enjoyable/seductive to the basic consumer-base though, as I haven't played the game since Cataclysm era.

I think, by now, most online gamers have already played the game and grown tired of it.  So, most of their retention is just a cycle of resubscribing ex-players for each new expansion.

 

Seems that every expansion Blizzard releases drives off a big chunk of the playerbase in one way or another.  I remember tons of people hating Cata and quitting because it dumbed down raiding/skill, etc

Dumbing things down and making things easier has been their MO for quite a long while.  If it's simple and easy enough to grasp, then it's more accessible to the masses. 

They do this with all their games, honestly.  Anything that seems complicated or overly challenging gets removed or retouched. I think it just hurts more driving away the veteran players in a game like  WoW because of how aged the game is becoming.  You don't have as much new blood coming into 10+ year old games as you do with say Hearthstone/HotS, etc.

In all honesty, I think current Blizzard is kind of a sad shell of what they were in the old days.  It seems like they make alot of dumb design decisions in every game these days.  They have a one-track focus on simplicity instead of quality and long-term depth.

Looking promising.  I voted you.

It looks like you guys have put in alot of thought and effort.

You guys really have some polishing work ahead though(those graphics you are using to exhibit your project aren't doing you any favors, in particular).

[Disclaimer: I just skimmed the thread, so I don't know everything that's been said.]

 

1.) A major part of the problem in these large PVP battles today is the pace of the combat in many of these action focused games.

The combat mechanics themselves aren't necessarily the problem, but moreso the health and death mechanics.  When you get dropped in just a few hits(in the blink of an eye), there simply isn't time to counter or strategize effectively.

Now, add in 100 players on each side, all blowing each other up before you can breathe a word, and strategy essentially becomes impossible once the fight starts.

Take a look at early-era WoW, for instance, compared to later-days Arena-gear WoW. 

In the early days, you had people basically running around one or two-shotting each other. 

Later on with all the PvP-focused armor, when players could last much longer amounts of time, player-skills and reactions and tactics found a foothold(granted class/comp imbalances and overcompensating on survivability still made it terrible).

Personally, I thought WoW PvP was pretty terrible, but it's a good example of how fight duration majorly affects the ability to use battle strategies.

 

2.) I saw a couple folks disputing the benefits of AoE bombing.  I just thought I'd point out that this, imo, would be a great solution to masses of mindless swarmers, IF (and it's a big if), organized groups had viable mechanics to counter AoE blasts.

For example:

a.) Zerg Scenario:

Group_A is a mindless, sloppy zerg charging at Group_B.  Group_B has a bunch of archers that fire off volleys into the blob that is Group_A, and Group_A is devastated.

b.) Organized large group:

Group_A is a coordinated guild charging at Group_B.  Group_B fires said arrow volleys, as above.  However, thanks to being an organized team, Group_A is able to correctly position themselves and their shields into a nice shield wall that protects them.

The catch is that the game mechanics need to actually allow arrows to be stopped by shields and have collision detection.  Which is rather the point, AoE bombing really is an acceptable, natural solution if there are ways to protect against it.

If you knew you were going into battle against a bunch of Wizards who were notorious for slinging exploding AoE fireballs, you would learn to spread your formation out, if you were more than a mindless zerg, even without suitable defense mechanics.  But, throw in some type of proper defense mechanic your own casters could use to shield against fireballs, and you have strategy to work with.

It all really comes down to the devs to create some type of system where zergs are easy to wipe out, but a zerg-sized coordinated team can protect itself.

The GW2 system was close to being the right way.  Being able to right-click and send the resources straight to your resource stash was, imo, a much improved system over the old way.

However, the stash space you had was horribly limited, so it kind of defeated the purpose, heh. IIRC, the items only stacked to 99 or something ridiculous when I played GW2.  You often got 5-6 from one node.  That capped out quite fast.

I could be wrong on the cap number, now that I think about it, it could have been as high as 250 for some items, but regardless, it filled up way too fast.

Resources, generally, should be handled like they are in Landmark.

Originally posted by Akumawraith
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

And I think it's going to be Pantheon.  They just seem to be getting the basic design right.

The next big  MMO will be Citadel of Sorcery, a trend setting MMORPG that will put all the current MMOS into the trash bins.

Ah, I almost forgot all about CoS.  It's definitely an interesting one, but wasn't it another one of those small teams that is progressing pretty slowly?  I occasionally remember it and check into it whenever it comes to mind.

You really never hear anyone mention it for some reason.  I guess that's why it slipped my mind.

Another one of those "lots of potential" games.  Hopefully they'll be able to pull it off.

Originally posted by Sojhin
Started Everquest on Rallos Zek the day it opened and this new server apparently will not have a pvp minded ruleset like the aforementioned server so no thanks.

Hehe, I'm betting there will be lots of indirect PVP going on with the overcrowding though... good ol' Fansy style bard trains, monks FD training to clear out dungeon camps, dps races, etc. ... just like it was on the original blue EQ servers when there wasn't room for everyone to fit.

I'm sure the "mature, social-driven community" will have more drama than a bunch of teenagers.

Originally posted by rounner
Brad's failure with Vanguard isn't to do with how good or buggy it was; it was to do with the misuse of funds. This is a behaviour he has continued to follow.

Well, that's mostly the case... but as I recall, the Vanguard code and all that was supposedly quite a disastrous, buggy mess. 

But, other than that, your statement pretty much nails the main problem.  He's yet to prove he can be responsible in any type of leadership capacity or fund management.  In fact, he has proven quite the opposite. 

So, while I hope they fly straight and actual launch and have a solid game, I just can't see it happening.  Currently, at the stage of progress it's in, and the well-known McQuaid trends, the game is little more than vaporware in my book.

I think most people around here have very little faith in McQuaid in a leadership role of any type.  That said, his game designs and ideas are usually appealing.

Personally, I don't put much stock in Pantheon until it sees the light of day, because I watched/played the development of Vanguard and remember what a disaster it was.

I wouldn't invest in the project at all, but I wish them luck and hope they have more success this time around.  I'm definitely not about to label it the "next big MMO" and agree with that statement though.

Even if Vanguard had been a massive success(compared to what it was), it still would have been a somewhat niche game.  I suspect Pantheon does not have the lofty goals of being the next big thing, but simply to appeal to that particular niche crowd.

From my point of view, there won't be anymore "big MMOs", due to how flooded the market is these days.  There's just too many options pulling people in too many directions.

Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Lokero

Well, plenty of motion control technology already exists, it's just a matter of marrying the two into the gaming world.  With products like Kinect and other motion control tech already being widely available, I think the big issue is the cost of putting it all together.

Of course, I don't know how far along Kinect actually is, precision-wise, but I think most studio-style motion control is just currently too expensive to bother with.

Frankly, motion control isn't really a missing link or anything, so merging the tech shouldn't be that difficult, once VR is successfully marketted.

Valve has already married the two with the vive apparently but the problem is you need a spare room  (or large area) to take advantage of it. Oculus has said they'll be revealing more about the rift in the coming weeks so we might soon see their solution to it but they have said they want it to be a full experience out of the box so I tend to think they have their own inputs and controls. 

 

The main cost will be the gaming rig you need to run the freakin things though especially as they've increased in resolution. It will be more demanding on your PC than 4k gaming. I think this is Sony's saving grace as it will run straight from the PS4 but I expect that will mean they will have to sacrifice the quality of their head set. 

If I remember correctly, at the recent expo/conference or whatever you call them, Nvidia used VR to plug their latest video card(That 12GB Titan card).  So, at least the video card companies are working on this from their end.  I haven't paid much attention to it, but I wonder how hot that sucker gets.  New video cards tend to fry eggs.

But that's hardly going to be cost effective any time soon.

I would have to agree about the PS4 though, I can't imagine that a static console is going to be able to keep up well with the quality and resolution that VR will demand, especially as it progresses further.  But, it should still work well enough, since most people aren't likely expecting a console to put up high-end desktop quality.

Well, plenty of motion control technology already exists, it's just a matter of marrying the two into the gaming world.  With products like Kinect and other motion control tech already being widely available, I think the big issue is the cost of putting it all together.

Of course, I don't know how far along Kinect actually is, precision-wise, but I think most studio-style motion control is just currently too expensive to bother with.

Frankly, motion control isn't really a missing link or anything, so merging the tech shouldn't be that difficult, once VR is successfully marketted.

Originally posted by Phaserlight
Originally posted by Lokero
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Lokero
The problem is that it has yet to "become a thing" because none of the VR sets have actually been released yet.  But, yeah, you can expect it to be a thing before too long.

 

Public game engines(such as Unity, etc.) are incorporating VR compatibility, and I'm sure there's a ton of developers doing the same for their projects.

 

Currently, we are in a state of limbo, as far as VR goes.  It's currently the next gold rush.  All the VR sets are in a race to release sometime within this next year.


 

Good summary.

Well kind of. It's not like people haven't tried it in any form yet. Many enthusiast have tried it. I've tried the DK1 for example and the problems I have with it are already solved. That said I played minecraft in it and it sold me on the concept. I never got the sense of scale in minecraft like I did with the VR headset, it was almost a different game.

All I keep thinking of when I think about the immersive difference that VR brings is that Bruce Willis movie Surrogates.  I can completely envision how addictive VR and simulated worlds will become as the technology advances into the future.

It's like anything else, really.  Some people will undoubtedly dive in way too deep, just because it's new.  The Gear VR includes a cautionary warning to take a break once every half hour, I think.  It's something to be used in moderation.

Surrogates was an OK film.  Here are some others from a little further back to enhance the mood:

Nirvana (1997)

The Thirteenth Floor (1999)

Avalon (2001)

I really recommend seeing Avalon, out of the three.  It has a really unique tone, and was done by the guy who directed the original Ghost In The Shell film.  There are many, many other films that involve VR and video games as plot points, of course.  I just happened to really enjoy the above three which are a little less mainstream, and deserve some promotion.

I also suggest checking out this guy's channel (Cymatic Bruce):

https://www.youtube.com/user/HapPProductions

He's been following the Oculus trend pretty much from the beginning, and is a self-described "VR evangelist".  He has hours and hours footage.

Final tip, did you know you can get the stereoscopic effect on a YouTube VR video capture by looking at the image cross-eyed?  It's kind of like doing one of those "magic eye" things from the 90s.  I was able to do it first when watching this video in full screen.

I also have Cymatic Bruce subscribed.  He's a bit excitable, but his videos are pretty good.  I would definitely agree with the "VR evangelist" statement, as he is really positive on it.

Speaking of Oculus Rift:

Last I saw(a couple days ago), their supposed release date is sometime early in 2016.  Granted, that has been changed like 5 times already, but I can't imagine they'll be willing to delay any longer than that, considering all the alternative VR systems people are trying to rush out the door.

2016 will likely be the year when VR-centric games should be popping up, since, in theory, that'll be around the time we have them flooding the market.

Originally posted by Illius

Hai

That's exactly what I was picturing when I saw 'beaver'.

What with my niece and nephew quoting that movie Elf about a million times about the "angry little elf" and now, with angry beavers, I'm starting to see angry little creatures everywhere I look.

P.S. - Illius, I'm always telling everyone I'm going to live forever, just like in your sig... I think we might have some things in common! *wink and gun*

Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Lokero
The problem is that it has yet to "become a thing" because none of the VR sets have actually been released yet.  But, yeah, you can expect it to be a thing before too long.

 

Public game engines(such as Unity, etc.) are incorporating VR compatibility, and I'm sure there's a ton of developers doing the same for their projects.

 

Currently, we are in a state of limbo, as far as VR goes.  It's currently the next gold rush.  All the VR sets are in a race to release sometime within this next year.


 

Good summary.

Well kind of. It's not like people haven't tried it in any form yet. Many enthusiast have tried it. I've tried the DK1 for example and the problems I have with it are already solved. That said I played minecraft in it and it sold me on the concept. I never got the sense of scale in minecraft like I did with the VR headset, it was almost a different game.

All I keep thinking of when I think about the immersive difference that VR brings is that Bruce Willis movie Surrogates.  I can completely envision how addictive VR and simulated worlds will become as the technology advances into the future.

Originally posted by Kefo
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by toddze
Originally posted by Kiyoris

If players harass others, the atmosphere becomes toxic and unfun.

Compared to when I played EQ, harassment is much much more pronounced.

 

Players no longer need each other, all the content has become solo friendly and cash shop oriented, so your reputation is meaningless.

Being a jerk in an MMO no longer has a consequence.

This allows people who would have otherwise been tapped on their shoulder by a Guild officer, the community itself, or a GM, to thrive.

In fact, players care so little about others, that instead of the harassers being forced to leave the game because their repuation was so bad, the people GETTING harassed are actually the ones leaving the game.

 

Just terrible.

though you have a point, I came from FFXI, a if a player got a bad reputation, they might as well quit. Those days are gone because devs dont have the balls to make a game like those good old games. Even though I know they could be successful.

However I am not quitting a game because of other idiots. I expect more from an experienced MMO player from the good old days. Only this new generation runs around crying "booo hoo hoo i got my feelings hurt" so suck it up and let all these self entitlists run around do all the crying because they got their poor little feelings hurt.

Well that's not fair. How is someone self entitled because they refuse to play a game with a toxic community?

I think it has more to do with the entitlement of the players in todays games. Not saying everyone is like this but you see it a hell of a lot more and yes I realize its because there are more people playing MMORPG's now.

In EQ I could send a tell to someone and offer them advice on how to pull a little better or how to split that group of 6 casters (I played a monk obviously) and they would gladly welcome the feedback. If I do the same in a modern game I am usually told to go f*** myself.

Also the community in EQ was better. The server I played on we respected each other and the blacklists were well known by everyone not just a few guilds. Sure you could ninja loot that super awesome piece of equipment but it would be the last great upgrade you would ever see.

Man, I miss the days when you could PvP with someone and then send them friendly tells and tips like honorable rivals. That was one of my favorite things about the old days, and one of the reasons I grew fond of PvP.  Friendly competition and mutual respect are so rare these days.

People in this world have just all gone bat**** nuts in the last couple decades.  Considering people today would run you over in a parking lot just for walking past their car at the wrong time, I don't think people on the internet are bound to be too warm and cuddly ;)

I guess moral decay is a bit of a philosophical side-step though from online gaming... but people are who they are.  They are just more prone to showing themselves as their dark and crazy selves on the internet.

Maybe I should stop listening to all this 80s music I have playing on my desktop... :D

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