All Posts by safwd

Originally posted by darkboaz

Originally posted by Kesran

 

Originally posted by LynxRufus

 

 

SOE won't ever have another success either.  The NGE sank them for good.

 

 

EQ2 is a failure?

EQ2 predates NGE by almost a year

But then they havent made ANY MMO since the fiasco of the NGE so i guess that is a pretty easy win for you.

EQ still makes money
EQ2 still makes money
Even SWG still makes money

That means SOE makes money, which in business terms means SUCCESS.

What SOE did with the NGE was not cool, but i dont think anyone is going to win a lawsuit over it. Other game companies are not making huge changes like the NGE because they are scared SOE is going to get sued for what they did, they just saw the max exodus of players that the changes caused and they dont want that.

Originally posted by Pappy13

I haven't stopped playing WoW because I know if I did I'd just find some other game to play or spend a lot more time watching TV which I think was worse for me then when I'm playing video games.  At least when I'm playing video games I can't be eating chips and dip and drinking beer.

Well you Sir need more practice.

I find it no problem at all to eat chips and drink beer while playing video games. After a few hours of drinking beer my party sometimes doesnt like it but i am pretty much good.

I never played WoW drunk but i did play EQ drunk a couple times, it was alot of fun, and for some reason far more dangerous.

For you kids out there: Drinking is bad, i gave it up years ago. Dont go there.
(This public service announcement has been brought to you by a guy who has kids now)

Originally posted by Daffid011

There really isn't much to disagree on Safwd.  EQ was a game based on sitting in a camp and slaughtering monsters, regardless of if someone felt they just absolutely had to have a certain item or not.  That is just how the game was played.  Quest based leveling has become more popular as MMOs have evolved and has almost universally replaced camp based grinding.  Those are facts.

 

We could go back and forth talking about the finer points of quests being hand holding vs sitting in one spot grinding mobs somehow allowing a person the be the master of their own domain, but that isn't the point either way. 

As I said and you confirmed also, there is nothing stopping people from just camping a spot and grinding mobs in just about any game.  Seeing how this has not remained the mainstream past time in MMOs it is pretty obvious that the mechanic isn't enjoyed as widely as it once was due to other mechanics advancing.  It is a dying breed to be honest unless some insightful developer embraces both styles and learns to blend them together to offer people more options, which is always a good thing.  I know I have a few ideas how they can not only co exists, but be combined to offer some minor twists.

 

All that aside, it is unlikely we will ever see another EQ1 style game.  Vanguard might have been the last good chance at that.  There is always some sort of progression server or throwback rule set over at EQland that people could enjoy if they want some of the old time back.  I think someone mentioned the Mac versions stopped getting updates around planes of power so that is another option.

 

 

 Edit: typos

 

Well i do agree with you that we will probably never see a game like EQ1 again, though i think there is a player base to support such a game.
Progression servers really dont work for what some of us want either. The power guilds come in and unlock all the expansions within a month or two so it becomes the game that we didnt like the changes to all over again. I might play on a classic server that didnt go beyond Velious if they opened one but the Devs say that that is probably not going to happen.

And truthfully, i dont want to play EQ again. I did that for a long time. I would like to play a game that was closer to EQs elements then what we have in the games of today. And im not really talking about the spawn grind, though i dont mind that.

I would like a game with slower leveling, much closer to EQ then the speed of WoW or LoTRs. When i started playing EQ i was married, had a job and kids so the whole "you cant play it like you did when you were a kid" arguement doesnt work for me. I was able to accomplish everything i wanted to playing a couple hours a day and more on weekends. It took me awhile to reach max level but that was fine with me.

I also want: 
1. A strong Diety system and Faction that is meaningful. The Diety you pick and the race/class you pick should have positive
2. Spell components. Yes yes, it is a usless timesink to have to gather spell components but oh freaking well.
3. Little instand travel, porting by classes is fine.
4. Quests that are actually quests. Quests in WoW are not quests, they are leveling. I want quests to be about stuff that you really dont need but would be cool to have. Quests should be something that you decided that you want to do, not that you have to do for exp. Faction quests are great, special items quests are great, NO exp quests. And no icons over the heads, it isnt that hard to find a quest giver.
5. Crafting like Horizons crafting, yes i said Horizons. Fishing, Brewing and cooking are a must.
6. I would like it not to turn into just a raid fest at max level. I have no problem with raiding and those who enjoy it, but they should put add group content at max level also.
7. Soloability but not a solo game. EQ had a good mix i think though many would argue. There were a few classes that were good at soloing, a few that were OK and a few that sucked. That worked for me. If you want to be able to solo choose one of the solo capable classes. I like to solo but WoW made Soloing the prime way to level prior to endgame and that should not be the case.
8. No ready made trade center. Let the player base develop this aspect of the game. I dont think anyone can argue that the Bazaar had a negative effect on EQ.
9. Items like armor and weapons should be tradeable for the most part, with the obvious exceptions of epic type loot. And level should be able to use most items but the items should tier down some. And there should be item decay, im not a fan of it but it is necessary if you want a good economy.
10. I am a fan of class based games but i want there to be a skill up system much like EQ had. You actually have to use a 2H sword for awhile before you are any good at it, also for spell, etc. No paying a trainer 10 Gold and now you are a master with a weapon. The class you pick will give you the skill option but if you dont utilize that skill it will suck.

There is more but i am going to quit now. 
And yes, i know i will probably never see this, and that is too bad. Because even though YOU may not want to play this game (which is fine, you dont have to) i think that there are many who would.

 OH, i nearly forgot.
YES, i want a Death Penalty. It doesnt have to be as rough as EQ was though. I like the DP of EQ with the option of going to a temple (of your God) and paying to have the priest summon your body to you. But that option should be VERY expensive and perhaps cost you a constitution point or two (FOREVER). This way doing a CR is still the better option unless you are stuck in the bottom of a tough dungeon or somewhere else where a CR will be nearly impossible or too time consuming.
Player corpse summoning spells would also be in game of course, but at higher levels. And would call for some costly spell components.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by safwd

 

Originally posted by Recant

For gamers to be expected to endure hardships such as waiting 12 hours for a rare mob to spawn (possibly being stolen by someone else), or taking a severe death penalty because your cleric went LD, you need to give gamers something to do in the mean-time, like, you know, having fun.

And this is where the 'instant gratification' argument falls down, because games like WoW are not offering instant gratification, they're just providing better designed gameplay.  Designed for people who don't have 12 hours a day to camp Stormfeather or the AC whatever.

EQ1 was a shit game, but I loved it.  But lets be realistic about how it stands up to games today.

HMM, i played EQ for 4 years and i never did a 12 hour camp for anything. How can that be.

 

Oh, i know. The really long camps were for items that i really didnt need. 
EQ did not make you do long camps for items, people did them because they wanted the rare item that dropped. Rarely did they actually need that item because there were other items just as good that didnt require the long camp. Or they were just pimp items that you didnt NEED at all.

You are glossing over the camps in EQ by focusing the issue on players desires and wants.  Lets just assume a player is going to do whatever and doesn't have and 'needs' for a specific item anywhere.  What does that person do?  Gets a group and you guessed it, camps something in a dungeon.  That was the mechanics of the game.  You camped a specific little area in a dungeon and slaughtered anything that spawned.  It was so monotonous you would eventually know the exact spawn time of a given camp spawn rotation.

There was no incentive to explore,  but people did.  When there was no incentive to camp spawns, people did.  etc etc.  That is just how the game was played.  It has nothing to do with people feeling they needed item X or not, that was just a side effect or some reason to camp an area other than XP.

The whole game was one giant camp fest even when they did put in quests that you needed to do such as key quests to get into certain zones.

Quest grinding as you put it gives some purpose, some story, some reasons and other aspects to playing a game other than just murdering things in their home.... which you could still do if you chose so.

 

 

 

 

We are just going to disagree on all this. 
I dont feel quest grinding offers anything special to a game. In fact i think it is an approach to gaming for people that are too lazy or ignorant to figure out what to do by themselves. And im not calling anyone here lazy or ignorant so dont get your undies bunched up, i dont think anyone here designed the game so it isnt your fault.

And MANY of the quests in WoW (just using that game as an example, not because i think it is crap or anything) are going to some critters home to kill them. And after you go to the quest giver to finish that kill quest he sends you to the guy right next to him that wants you to go kill something else. I guess he could also want to you go find a spawn of some egg or weed or something also, either way, not to much story or intrigue.

Nothing in WoW is stopping you from standing in one spot and killing the same criters over and over again, you can still grind camp just like you did in EQ. All WoW did to make this less appealing was create quest lines that held your hands, telling you exactly what to do, and made them produce faster exp. I am never going to see that an an improvement.
Though if you do that is fine. I would still rather play a game like EQ then play a game like WoW or LoTRs any day.

Originally posted by eccoton

Originally posted by safwd

So here is a question:

Why is it that every time someone makes a thread like this people feel the need to come on and state that no one would play a game like EQ again.

If that is the case why are these threads being made.

That facts are, there are some of us that would like to play a game like EQ again. And the group is big enough to support a game, of course not WoW numbers but plenty to make a profit.

Come on and say you would never play a game like EQ again if you want, but please stop telling me that i wouldnt like to.

No one is telling you that you would not want or should not play another EQ. For the most part this has been an interesting discussion since EQ was one of the early mmos that many of us here played.

Now is they were to say that "THEY" didnt want it then i would have no arguement at all, because i dont care if they want it. I just know that I want it.

Originally posted by Recant

For gamers to be expected to endure hardships such as waiting 12 hours for a rare mob to spawn (possibly being stolen by someone else), or taking a severe death penalty because your cleric went LD, you need to give gamers something to do in the mean-time, like, you know, having fun.

And this is where the 'instant gratification' argument falls down, because games like WoW are not offering instant gratification, they're just providing better designed gameplay.  Designed for people who don't have 12 hours a day to camp Stormfeather or the AC whatever.

EQ1 was a shit game, but I loved it.  But lets be realistic about how it stands up to games today.

Oh, i know. The really long camps were for items that i really didnt need. 
EQ did not make you do long camps for items, people did them because they wanted the rare item that dropped. Rarely did they actually need that item because there were other items just as good that didnt require the long camp. Or they were just pimp items that you didnt NEED at all.

Originally posted by _Jord_

 

It's amazing how people confuse novelty (I.e. it was your first game, your first love) and quality.

 

Its amazing how some people confuse ease and lack of depth with quality.

Originally posted by Roin

 

Originally posted by safwd

You need know nothing about the world, you need to explore nothing, just go wherever the guy with the icon over his head tells you to go.
You just dont notice it is a grind because you level so fast, which is a whole different problem.

 

Sorry that's just not true, and you know it.  WoW actually encourages and rewards you for exploration.  Have you ever done a quest in WoW?  The quest usually give you one of two generic directions.  Head east pass x or y.  Then other times it will be "Look here" and it's not an area it's telling you to look at.  It's the entire zone.  There are even some quest with even vaguer messages then that.

The only real exploring i did in WoW was exploring because i wanted to just roam around and take a break from questing for awhile.

And i never said that you could not explore in WoW, i said that there was really no need to explore in WoW. And i really dont classify exploring as going over that hill because a quest giver told you to, i classify exploring as going over that hill because you want to see what is on the other side.

Originally posted by Vendayn

Here is a great Everquest 1 game, its EXACTLY like EQ1

 

http://everquest.station.sony.com/

The game we are talking about is from around 2000-2002. The game that you linked is not that same game. And no, it is not exactly like the EQ we are talking about.
Much like current UO is not like original UO, or current AC is not like original AC.

Why does everyone complain about the huge camping in EQ?

Because guess what, you didnt have to ever do a long camp in EQ. Everything that you had to wait in line for or sit and wait hours for was not required (except perhaps the epics and they should be a pain in the butt since they are EPICS).

You didnt need the Dark Elf Mask, you wanted it.
You didnt need the GBS, you wanted it.
You didnt need the fishbone earring, you wanted it.
etc etc

And by the way, i got all three or those and only had to wait in line for the Mask, and i didnt mind doing so. I did camp the earring for about 2 hours but i was doing other stuff also so it was no big deal. Got lots of fishing done.

WoW replaced the grind that EQ had with quest grinding. That is all you are doing from lvl 1 to lvl 50 in WoW, quest grinding. You need know nothing about the world, you need to explore nothing, just go wherever the guy with the icon over his head tells you to go.
You just dont notice it is a grind because you level so fast, which is a whole different problem.

Originally posted by Elikal

 

Originally posted by soulmirror

No.....  no one is willing to put the time into an MMO that you had to in EQ1.  Today MMO's have to give instant gratification or they are panned by the majority of players.  Thank WoW for that...

Look, first I never liked WOW nor hated it, played it 3 months was bored and gone.

 

BUT: What WOW did GOOD and forever introduced was rewards for EVERY amount of time players have! They have things to do for a short time, for a few days and some who take VERY VERY long to accomplish. EQ1 style game meant you needed LOTSA time to even get a small new fukking dagger! WOW is neither easy nor all just instant gratification. It really isnt my kind of game, but spreading this ridiculous word is just plain wrong.

Sometimes I want a goal which takes months to accomplish, yeah, but sometimes I just want to play 1 or 2 hours, get some small new reward to feel good for the day. I dunno if WOW invented that, but I dont want to go back to Dinosaur gaming.

I loved playing solo RPGs in the 80ies, things like early Ultima or Wizardry. No journal for quests, no ingame map, I had to draw it all and had a blast. But then was then and now is now, and just because I had so much fun in 1985 with that doesnt mean I want it NOW. Why do we always want to turn back the time? Ever heard of *gasp* progress?

Yeah modern games shorten the time between logging in and starting the fun, so what? There was nothing good in the endless grind, pain and wait wait wait that those old timers were. Like car oldtimers, the only good lies in the eye of the beholder, objectively they are just old, outdated cars. So with games.

All this about earning something... sorry but thats trash. If it were an accomplishment, it would be difficult. But what is difficult in sitting and waiting for a repop for 8 hours? Any fool can do that, its not accomplishment its just a boring waste of time. ALL those so called "challanges" were nothing but timesinks! A challange where I prove my power against great odds does not necessarily need to take time. Waiting doing nothing, travelling over the same roads over and over doesnt prove AYNTHING about your skills, besides patience. Or dumbeness.

I Disagree with every part of it.

The new games do not offer progress. Progress is not giving the player a map, progress is not puttin a icon over a quest givers head so they are easy to find, progress is not shortening the 1-top leveling from close to a year to a month or two, progress is not instant gratification.

And WoW is instant gratification. It is either incredibly easy to get anything in WoW or i am just an incredible player, and i dont think it is the latter.

Some of us dont think of DPs, meaningful travel, faction, spell components, actual seeking quest givers and yes, even camping as timesinks. We think of them as actually playing the game.

It is fine and fair that you dont want these things again, we arent asking you to play this type of game if it ever comes back. But I, and it seems quite a few others do want these things.

You all can continue to throw out the fond memories and first kiss theories all you want but it wont change the fact that some of us Actually WANT a game with the aspects of EQ again.

So here is a question:

Why is it that every time someone makes a thread like this people feel the need to come on and state that no one would play a game like EQ again.

If that is the case why are these threads being made.

That facts are, there are some of us that would like to play a game like EQ again. And the group is big enough to support a game, of course not WoW numbers but plenty to make a profit.

Come on and say you would never play a game like EQ again if you want, but please stop telling me that i wouldnt like to.

I would love it if they made EQ over again, pretty much the exact same as the original but maybe with some different races and a different world, and Horizons crafting. Now that would be the game for me.

Originally posted by TheHumannBee

I think it is unrealistic to expect a game like EQ to come out anytime soon. People won't make as much money from games like that, because games have evolved and become better than that. There are no longer unnecessary time sinks and painfully high death penalties, because those things just aren't fun anymore FOR ME.

 

I think that some of you EQ lovers have trouble distinguishing between quality and nostalgia.

I added that red part in for ya, i think you forgot it.

You see, all those things about EQ are still fun FOR ME.

I dont feel that the new games are quality. Yes they look better but i dont feel that the gameplay is better then EQ was. I dont feel that the necessity of community is better then EQ was, i dont feel that the explorability is better then EQ was and i certainly dont feel the immersion is better then EQ was.

Now you may ask why im not playing EQ anymore then. First off, i dont want to raid all the time and EQ has turned into a Raiding game. There is little newbie population so it is difficult to find groups if you arent already in a big guild. Now my guild is still active in EQ and i would be back in it in a second, in fact im pretty sure i still have multiple characters in the guild. 
The main reason i dont want to play EQ now is because i played EQ for 4 years, that is an eternity for MMOs. I want to play something very similar to EQ but will still give me a new feeling, going back to the Oasis does not give me a new feeling.

And to get rid of "timesinks" (I.e. playing the game) the new games have simply created a mass linear quest line that holds your hand all the way through the game. Ya, thats improvement.

Originally posted by Anofalye

 

Originally posted by Slash83

  Vanguard could of, it's probably the biggest flop in MMO history (and probably in our lifetimes).

 

Dark and Light?  Mourning?

Gods and Heroes  (At least Vanguard made launch)

Originally posted by De4th_M0nKee

 

Originally posted by safwd

 

There are people playing these "Trash" games as you call them, so if SOE is willing to keep them afloat so the people who do enjoy them can continue to play them why do you, I or anyone else care.

 

SOE is still making a lot of money so something must be going right for them.

SOE has actually created 3 major MMOs:

Everquest- Very successful, the king of the mountain for a long time

Everquest 2- Pretty successful game, still has a strong player base

SWG- they messed up this one with the NGE but they were trying for the WoW crowd just like everyone else.

2 winners and 1 loser isnt really so bad is it?

As you said they didnt make the other games that they offer on station pass, they are just keeping them alive for those who want to play. And Plantetside was never a major MMO, niche market all the way.

Im sure Smed is really sad that everyone on this site hates him. He is really sad while he is driving his very expensive car to his very expense house.

Well, first off SOE didn't create EQ, they bought it. And right away started pissing off longtime players when they started changing things.

 

 

EQ2 and SWG have both had dismally low player bases for half their existence. SWG from the NGE and poor launch. EQ2 from a very poor launch. They have turned around EQ2 I am happy to hear and it is a much better game. But it took them 3 years.

 

Not saying that I wouldn't play an SOE game. I just think they don't know what they are doing 95% of the time when they try to "shape" an MMO.

 

 

Verant Interactive was always part of Sony. I thought this lack of information arguement was actually dead. EQ from day one was property of Sony, true the name on the box changed a few times but it was always Sony, and it was always Smed.

Wiki it yourself. Knowledge is a beautiful thing.

The changes that pissed people off actually started after Brad McQuaid left Sony because he didnt like the direction the game was going. So yes, Sony did make changes to the game that the player base didnt like ( I was one of them) but they also created the game in the first place.

And i never said EQ2 was always  a success, i pre ordered the game, so trust me, i know what i was like at launch. But it is successful now.

I do blame SOE for deciding to WoWify their games in hopes of getting the huge numbers that WoW got but then i also blame pretty much every other developer for doing the same thing.

Originally posted by Elikal

Or CEO or whats that called. Seriously. I mean, I dont want to chime into the old SOE bashing, usually thats not my style, but recently I really have been wondering. There were times when it was impossible for me to think playing MMOs without something from SOE. I loved SWG and EQ2, and played them both for almost 3 years. While I was disappointed about NGE I was not furious and kept playing, but eventually they just failed to add enough new things to do for a vet player.

EQ2 was always a mixed bag, and essentially all expansions more or less were just more of the same old. More badgers to kill, more feathers to collect more gnoll paws to gather. Treadmill ad nauseam.

I know SOE is not responsible for the making of Vanguard or Pirates of the Burning Sea, but look at their forums here? If the deadness of their forums are an indication of the state of the game, they are pretty dead.

I say, SOE really has a good hand to ally with winners, havent they now? *evilgrin* Really, I know both Vanguard and PotBS werent made by SOE, no blame there. Buying ONE piece of trash like Martix wasnt enough huh? They found the experience so entertaining they bought THREE trash games? Wow, must be a very clever strategy, something like taking out the bad MMOs and someday merging them all into one big good? I dunno, its likely beyond simpletons like me. I mean, come on, they made a big investment in Vanguard buying it for a LOT of money and then do what? Take out customization and add helmets 90% of all MMO players deactivate anyway. Wow, clever thinking, really.

I mean, seriously, who the heck is MAKING such decisions? Isnt there ONE person saying Smed: "hey, most players deactivate helmets, so lets not take out character customization UNTIL we have a new system to instantly replace it"?? Maybe there are all zombies working there who are all just nod to whatever the big boss says? I dunno. SOE really starts to become the laugh of the gaming world - for everyone this time, not only a few SWG vets.

So I really wonder how long the Sony mother company will leave Mr Smed in his place. I dunno who exactly is responsible for all the crappy decisions SOE made, but hell, one or two bad moves are human errors, no prob, but so far almost ALL decisions from SOE were utter trash. I mean, how can this be? Its really beyond me how so much stupidity can amass in such a tight place. If I lived in the city where SOE has its headquarters I would seriously think about a relocation. An an