Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by ProfRed

Sorry I couldn't read the whole post due to time restraint, but I think I can offer a solution that blends systems that at least one game coming soon is implementing.

Basically you have it skill based ala UO, Darkfall, SWG at launch, but at the same time you can have tons of classes.  Hundreds, or tens that are defined by a skillset and offer certain bonuses and negatives.  To become the class you simply have to meet the skill requirements and turn it on.

For example:

A class could be Paladin:

Strength 45, Swords 35, Shield 35, Healing 30

Bonus to healing, shield defense, and bonus defense when HP drops below 50%

Penalty to all attacks when not wielding a shield, and to all damaging spells

 

Then if a player meets the requirements they can turn on that class and reap the rewards.  The idea of a sandbox is to offer freedom and what is great is that you can simply gear your skills towards another class if you want to try it instead.  All gear is wearable by everyone so you can make yourself look like whatever you want. 

Classes are easy to create, and it would be simple to have 100 classes.  Just a system that I enjoy.

 

Good post. 

Sandbox players already have a system like this.  I can easily think up a paladin class skill up melee Swords or maces, Shields, heavy armor and Restoration Magic along with a couple buffs and a smite (bolt) for good messure.

The players of these games already set the requirments of these classes. We don't need some reward system thats in place to tell us we made a paladin. I don't need a reward. Knowing that i used my imagination and careful planning to design my class is reward enough.

Now I can go out and be a heavy armored fighter that buffs and tosses heals here and there.

We don't need a predetermined skill requirement that tells us how and when to make a particular class.

THis is the beauty of a skillbased/sandbox. I can make a paladin then if i get bored with him i can start casting and turn the dude into a shadowknight or start wearing leather and use daggers and make him a scout/thief.  We dont need to be rewarded once we fullfilled a certain skill requirment.

Having the limitless character customization is enough.

 

 

Agree the idea above is a good one. I would not mind playing a skill based game like that.
 

Metalheads post is what confuses me about the skill based verse class based debate. So skill based is better because you can pick the skills yourself that make the class that you want to play, i.e. Paladin. How is that really different then say EQ where i just picked Paladin. I still had to build up skillin Swords, hammers, shield, healing and so forth.

Granted in a pure skill based game you can completely change out skills to from another class with the same guy but that really doesnt appeal to me that much. I like playing different races and different classes on different people. This gives me a change of pace, if i want to tank i pull up my SK, if i want to blast i pull up my Wizzy, if i want to be a huge wrecking machine i pull up my Ogre Warrior, if i want to be a little sneaky bastard i pull up my Halfling Thief. I guess you can say that that is limiting but the other method is as well. You cannot be a great Tank and great Blaster in a decently done Skill based game that does not let you max out everything. You have to make choices and those choices builds a certain type of character, which is usually very close to an existing class.

I like class based systems that make you build up skills and limits you on how many skills you can actually keep built up high.

I often wonder if original EQ is more sandbox than many believe.

I crapped my pance once, it wasn't pretty.

But as they say, one persons garbage is another persons treasure.
You see an ugly game, others see an ugly game where you can kill anyone anywhere and take all their stuff. To some that is good enough.
And some even see a game that isnt all that ugly.  I don't really think its that ugly but then i still think EQ1 looks alright.

I agree that WoW will be around for a long time.

I really am not a fan of the game but it does have a very large community, many of which is in Asia and they dont give up on games quickly. Lineage, Lineage 2 and FFXI still have pretty big populations in Asia alone.

Another thing about WoW, with the graphics they decided to use i dont think the game is going to look overly dated 5 years down the road. By going Cartoony i think it is going to hold up longer then the games that try to look more realistic.

I remain skeptical but hopefull.

Two things on that list made me go HUH though.
River currents will move you downstream- I dont think i have ever seen this in a game before.
Mobs will send you personal taunts- That is crazy and if it is really in the game will be rather funny.

Again we shall see. I dont understand why everyone is getting so excited one way or the other, especially the negative way. It will happen or it wont. We will either get a new and possibly exciting game or we will continue to be stuck with the sad lot that is out there now.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

1. WoW

 

 

This is all you need to try because the rest suck and if you don't like WoW then you have a long wait for something good. Such a shame because there used to be alot of good mmorpgs until they all got ruined by SOE.

Hey JK-Kanosi

Here is a prime example of what i was talking about in the other tread.

Ive seen a number of "Beta" reviews now, some good and some bad. Not sure which to believe at this point.

But to say anything is a final blow for a game that isnt even out yet and has not cost me a dime would be pretty stupid.

And as another option i am thinking about giving Vanguard a go. I tried it when it came out and like many others was unable to play it well on my computer.

I have heard good things about the game, alot of fixes and whatnot, but i also believe the population isnt real large. Though they say the servers are all on medium now, medium can still mean pretty empty in a world as large as Vanguards.

Might be worth the free trial if you havent done it yet though.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Nevermind, I just read a thread talking about how rampant hackers are in EQ. I like to play on a relatively fair playing field and EQ doesn't sound like it. Plus some person named SWFD or whatever made a slam against WoW players, and since I'm a WoW player, I'd hate to get slammed on by the EQ playerbase on a regular basis. I see a lot of WoW slamming in other games, and I'm really sick of it. If EQ does this too, I might as well just not play, because I'd be defending WoW the whole time, instead of playing. I don't know why people can't keep their opinions of games to themselves, knowing that others will probably disagree with them. It's usuallly some generalization about the age or maturity level, or skill level of WoW players that get me riled up. It just is ignorant to say things like that and I wish people would chill the heck out with it.

Anyways, thanks anyways for the help if you were typing while I was replying to my own post, but I guess I should stick with holding out for the Origins server for DAoC.

I feel i must defend myself a wee bit since im assuming i am the SWFD you are talking about. I never bust on WoW players for being WoW players, i was once a WoW player, but those who come on to other game forums, like EQ, and state how Great WoW is and how WoW invented everything and how noone wants to play a game with useless timesinks like EQ or DAOC (for that matter) anymore, those i bust on. Sorry for the rambling sentence.

Anyway. I think you made a pretty fair choice with DAOC. I played EQ in 99 when it came out and i bought DAOC as soon as it came out to give it a try. I really like DAOC, to this day it is my second favorite game ever played, but i ended up going back to EQ. I went back to EQ because of the PVE. PVE in DAOC was great but it just seemed like the EQ world was so much bigger the DAOC's PVE world. Also while i enjoyed a number of the race/class combinations of DAOC there was more that i liked in EQ.

But i would say you should have no regrets on your choice. I loved EQ but i imagine if DAOC was my first game i would have the same love for it, it was really an excellent game.

As for starting EQ now, i would not recommend it. The game is really just a raiding game now with most of the population well over level 50. There is still a ton to do and a ton to see but you will most likely being doing it all alone if you were to start from scratch now. I recently went back and to true hotspots of the old days (at lower levels) were completely empty. I didnt really see a whole lot of people in the teen or twenties and those that i did see were all mega twinked and soloing stuff. You would not now get to experience what made EQ so great back in the first 3-4 years.

And sorry if i offended you with a WoW comment. I do hate WoW, i wont deny that, but i mainly hate it because of some of the players it has created and how it has become the death of games being made in the same mold as those games that i really loved, like EQ and DAOC.

Originally posted by sebbonx

Heltern is right, I cheated in EQ, I used a no drop transfer hack. My punishment after doing it for YEARRS, a two week suspension. BULLCRAP SOE DOES ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT CHEATING! I was a raider, and EVERY Monk puller used showEQ, or you weren't a Monk puller, and Monks aren't great DPS, so you weren't in a raiding guild as a Monk UNLESS you cheated! Otherwise you were ORDERED by the leaders of your guild to get showEQ. MMORPG is full of liars, pro-SOE liars, World of Warcraft and Blizzard do 100 times more to stop hacks and cheats, PERIOD!

You are talking out of your ass, PERIOD.

Your sig shows that you are talking out of your ass because it is obvious that you dont like EQ so you are just jumping on the negative as soon as you can.

The fact that you prefer WoW to EQ means that you want to play a game that holds your hand and tells you exactly what to do all the time so you dont have to think for yourself. Have fun with that, though i think it is pathetic.

The fact that you actually said that MMORPG is full of Pro-SOE people makes you a complete asshat.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Well, I'm more of a realist when it comes to gaming. Before someone smarts off with some "well this is a fantasy setting" bullcrap, I mean realistic with all things considering.

Your armor, should only offer protection.

Cloth = No protection, but great mobility

Leather = Little Protection, moderate mobility

Mail = Moderate Protection, little mobility

Plate = Great Protection, no mobility

 

Weapons should only cause damage

The lighter the weapon, the faster it attacks. The smaller the weapon, the smaller the damage.

The heavier the weapon, the slower it attacks. The Large the weapon, the larger the damage.

 

In other words, everything makes sense. Now, there is plenty of room for enchantments and enchantments in a fantasy setting is completely within reason, however, enchanted armor shouldn't come cheap and should be rare, just as it is in any fantasy novel or SPG you play.

Enchantments that I believe are acceptable relate to whatever is being enchantment. For example, weapons could be enchanted to have an extra sharp edge, to be lighter or heavier. They could also have elemental damage, such as frost and fire, or be coated with poison.

Armor could be enchanted to be lighter than usual, maybe shock somebody when struck, or maybe be enchanted with a glare that causes your oponent to miss more due to the glare hurting their eyes.

Plenty of reasonable and believable possibiities. But stats such as Strength, Agility, and etc on armor and weapons is just silly.

 

With my idea on things, people can pick and choose whichever armor they prefer to wear without having to worry abuot what stats are on it and the same goes for weapons.

Having player based stat ungrades on weapons and armor does not bother me at all but the above really makes alot of sense.
 

I do of course think weapons should have different stats. A Claymore should hit harder and be harder to move around then a longsword. So you get more damage per swing but less swings in a given bit of time.
I really like adding bonuses to weapons like +fire and also + against a certain enemy. I always like getting swords that were + against Orcs, Giants  etc in D&D. Having enchantment slots on a weapon would open up a great new crafting field in alot of games.

But i would also welcome some player stats on armor. Back in D&D you could get a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength. These are great pieces of gear because they boost you up but it actually makes sense why it is doing so. Not every piece of armor should stat boost you though, it should be somewhat rare.

I liked how EQ did it, though they went a bit far with it on the stat side.
 

Originally posted by Bladin

First off to the first person who quoted me.  It was a step forward for priests, I'd say try playing one, but frankly that wouldn't help the situation now, try playing one in vanilla, where guilds were recreuiting dwarf priests and ignoring other priests if they had the opportunity.  There still is race defining featrures but they are just for the race, they aren't impacting the class.  You aren't hindered in your priest spells now.  And that's nice.

But different races simply can't be different classes. 

 

To the next poster.

Shut up about lore.  Seriously, you fail.  does lore state that there has never been a master human blacksmith?  OR does lore state that theres never been a human who can use a weapon to it's full extent? 

The thing is, theres no reason why a player should be excluded from learning spells recipes and skills, being better at it is different.  Right now I can go back the same cuisine you see from pro chefs but will it turn out as well as them?  No it wouldn't.  Not even close.  But i could still make what they make.

That's the issue here. Theres no reason why a dwarf can't cast any spell he wants if he practices enough.  He just shouldn't be as good at it . IF you even agree with that logic

I'm not sure if your just a fanboy or a troll, or what, but you are argueing against people being the same, yet making it so people roll different races to be the same role as everyone else.  If you want to be a caster be a elf, if you want to be a blacksmith be a dwarf, if you want to be a fighter be a orc.

Why not just give each race a set class and calll it a day.

And to be honest, nobody really cares if you chose a bad race combo just for shits and giggles in eq.   Sure you had fun, and you weren't the best warrior.  Tell me, why would i want to play with you, your not the only warrior on the server, and i don't need you for a friend, and i have no desire to be your friend.

Why would i roll a human if i wanted to be a blacksmith?  I wouldn't is that fair, that the entire metalshaping proffession is just dwarves.  Why even bother being it on another race?  You can't make the best stuff, therefore it's pointless to be it.  Since eventually you'll cap and have no reason to even have the skill anymore because you have to buy the best stuff anyway.

it also limits choices for fighting styles.  If i wanted to fight in melee I should roll a melee race and just go with it.

"play what you have fun with"  Is fine when you play a game where you are just going with the flow and not trying to achieve or do anything. 

I'm all for race bonus when they don't affect the overall balance of things but still give incentives.

+% damage? sure

+% skill gain? suppose so

Where do we draw the line? If you want to tailor be a elf, if you want to be a leatherworker be a human, if you want to be a butcher be a orc. 

Let me ask you this, are you saying that a human being can never become a better blacksmith than a dwarf?  That's kinda silly.  Theres no reason why a human couldn't.  "because dwaves are raised as blacksmiths" .... no

1. Dwarves can not be all blacksmiths, sorry.  Theres no such thing in any form of dwarf lore, where every single dwarf had his own forge and was a blacksmith.  If a dwarf never forged anything before in his life(wwhich is quite probable) then theres no reason why he should be able to advance further then a human that has worked his entire life as a blacksmith.

Who are you to say that?  Did the deelopers say "every player who makes a dwarf and takes blacksmithing was raised as a blacksmith"  Or "every human who takes up blacksmithing never did it before"  

Now not only are the developers capping our skills, but they are also deciding what type of history our individual characte had?  What if i was a exiled dwarf who sturdied under a grand mage and he taught me all his spells?  "sorry your a dwarf you can't learn these spells" 

Why not? For a sandbox you people sure are willing to bend over and take it when it comes to freedom restrictions

Ah, so i was right, it is an all or nothing thing.
 

And i didnt say that Dwarves had to be the best at Blacksmithing, i said that fantasy lore does support that, and sadly for you it appears that the developers do also. You can always just not play the game if it bothers you that much. Or you could just bitch and whine because it doenst exactly support what you want and then of course get all pissed when someone else wants to change something to thier liking which isnt your liking.

Besides, you dont even know what they have done yet. Perhaps it is really nothing much and there is very little difference. You may be getting all excited just a little early.

This happens in every single game so what do you really expect.

People are on a game that was built for PVE, not PVP, and start asking for more PVP. They are going to get a bad reaction.

Go onto the Darkfall or Mortal pages and ask for more PVE and see what you get.
Go onto WoW and ask for slower leveling or real death penalty and see what you get.

Etc Etc Etc. The problem are those people that feel that every single game made should be exactly what they want and screw those who actually came to the game in the first place because of how it was advertised.

If you came to Vanguard looking for exceptional PVP then you came to the wrong game. If you go to Darkfall looking for exceptional PVE then you went to the wrong game. That isnt being mean, that is just he way it is.

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by APEist

 In 3 months, people will look back and say... "Remember how idiotic the mmorpg.com community was?  How wrong they were, all along?  How uncomparable Darkfall is to scams like Mourning and Dark and Light?"

PS.  This is in no way a defense of Tasos.  Tasos speaks bull quite often, but his faults don't correlate with Darkfalls.  Tasos isn't a unique character either.  We have seem him in other companies as well, throughout MMORPG history.

 

 

Ya Ya... move along, FANBOIS.  We heard the same arguments about Vanguard, POTBS, Fury, Hellgate:London, Tabla Rasa, AoC, Warhammer... on and on you fanbois bring the hype only for us to watch you disappear into nothingness when your game disappoints the masses.  Most of us here that you like to call trolls are realist.  We are just waiting for you to wake up and smell the coffee.  Supposed that time will come around the 25th.  We'll have to see....

And oh... please, the Tasos you speak of in other companies in MMORPG history, please... bless us with your wisdom because of the smartest of your very own fanbois have failed to prove to us just one title where Tasos is actually credited with working on.

 

Congradulations, your  side is winning.
 

And we havent had a game worth a shit come out in years.

Im not sure i want to be on the winning side of this one.

Oh well, maybe its back to EQ for me. I will remain on the side of those who are just sick of what this genre has turned into and put back on my rosy glasses of days gone by.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by safwd

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by safwd

Originally posted by Zorvan

Easy. If it does not release in better shape than any other mmo, and feature complete, then it is a failure. Too much to ask?

Tough titty, go blame Tasos.

Because Tasos ran his mouth Darkfall must do what no MMO has done before or it is a failure?

You have taken your hate to far and now most of what you say about this game is a joke.

ANYWAY.

The game will be a success if it releases and people enjoy it. Preferably a few hundred thousand people at least.

If it releases and is steaming garbage, never gets fixed and just dies off then its a failure.
 

- whoosh -

Zorvan's comment sorta flew past ya didn't it? :)

Hint: Go back and read some of the claims Tasos has made...

 

Not even a little bit.

I know what Tasos has stated, and yes, he is quite possibly an Asshat that needs to have the microphone permanently taken from him. However Tasos is but one person who in no way is the sole builder of this game, he is a salesman who is trying to sell a product. If people actually believe everything he says about it they are foolish. Salesman lie, news flash for you there.

To say that because of this Darkfall has to do what no MMO has done before it or it is complete failure is equally Asshat. Perhaps Zorvan actually knows Tasos and there is real personnal feelings here, perhaps then i could understand why he rants so much about him, if not then that is just kind of sad.

 

No, he's not the only person working on DF. But by being their spokesperson, he is *representing* the company as a whole. He's the "face and voice of Aventurine" if you will, whether officially or otherwise.

If Tasos is not certain 100% that they can accomplish what he's claiming, then he shouldn't claim it in the first place. But by saying so, he's putting it out there and will be held to what he says. That's the way it works.

Zorvan's statements, to me, seem to say "He's made a lot of statements, and now he has to put his money where his mouth is". In other words, "He's made AV's bed... now they have to lay in it".

Still, again, I see this aplogist pattern from some people on the "fan" side of the fence.

It goes like this:

Before: Tasos says something about the game. Numerous fanboys stand behind it as 100% Fact. Tasos said it, and so it will be true. Only the trolls and haters will say otherwise (e.g. the Jan 22nd launch).

After: Despite Tasos' words and the fanboys' insistance it would happen, it doesn't (e.g. the missed Jan 22nd launch). Suddenly, there's a 180-degree turn, and the responses become something like,

"Well, yeah, just because Tasos has a big mouth, doesn't mean we should hold him to it."

- or -

"Well they're just an indie company and no other company is trying to do anything like this because they're too scared, so the Trolls and Haters have to stop holding AV to a higher standard"...

... or any of a number of examples.

I mean the apologist spin and intellectual dishonesty on display rivals most political campaigns. And no matter which side of the equation they're on (Before or After), the fanboys always find a way to label the skeptics "trolls" and "haters" - often contradicting themselves, revising or ignoring history in the process.

Come on. Either you believe 100% in what he says and are wrong when they don't happen. Or you have doubts because they're an indie company in the first place, etc... You can't have it both ways.

 

 

Probably 100% true.
Who cares. Who cares if people take Tasos at his work 100% of the time and who cares if those same people then makes excuses for Tasos when these things dont happen. Who cares.

The prudent person will wait and see how the game turns out before they make a real judgement one way or the other. I will never get overly excited about a game again and i will NEVER preorder a game again. You never know what you are going to get anymore so it isnt worth the risk.

So if people want to jump on the love wagon and throw money at this game before it is even proven to be decent or not who cares, its their money. They wont be getting mine until i am sure the game isnt a stinker though.

Originally posted by Bladin

Are you people serious?  We aren't talking about about "being better" it's "not being able to get all the skills/spells"

Nobody cares about a dwarf swinging and doing say 5% more damage, or doing 5% less spell damage, that's not a big deal, and can be overcome.  The problem is getting more skills and spells which are way more important then just small %.

In WoW if you couldn't learn some of your class defining spells because you were the wrong race, it'd be unfair.  And guess what, it was.

Look at priests, they used to have race abilities and it made some priests far better so that if you weren't the right race you weren't wanted.  Undead were the best horde priests up till the change, there was NO REASON AT ALL for troll or blood elf.  And on human side, night elves and humans were always wishy washy with dwarves being the dominant priest due to fear ward. Draenai came in pretty strongly though.

These were big things that got removed because it was a horrible decision.

But go ahead, say not getting the top spells and melee abilities or crafting recipes based on your race is fine.  I mean, we all want to be blacksmiths and not be able to craft the best things.

For the love of god, when did MMO players completely lose the ability to make that (semi) hard decision.
 

If you want to make the very best armor in game then play a ugly ass Dwarf, if you have no desire to play an ugly ass Dwarf then you give up the ability to make the very best armor in game.
Back in the old days we call these things Lore. You see, in pretty much any standard fantasy (which Darkfall falls under) Dwarves were the best smiths. Nothing new here. In this same fantasy Dwarves were never all that good at casting spells, which is why you rarely see Dwarven Mages in fantasy settings.
So if you play a Elf you goes for the casting side of things but you still like to make armor you will be able to make really good armor and cast exceptionally good fireballs where your Dwarf friend who choses the same route will be able to make exceptionally good armor but only be able to cast good fireballs. You see, this is balance.

Again, if every race is the same then just make one damn race.

This is just a very little bit of give and take, sorry if that goes against your all or nothing gamestyle.

I played a Halfling Warrior in EQ for quite some time. I didnt do it because he hit the hardest or had the best AC, i did it because he was fun to play. He also leveled the fastest and had the best agility/dex so he could hit faster. So it got closer in the long run but he was still not as good as an Ogre Warrior. But then i didnt want to play a giant sized ugly ass Ogre, so i didnt expect to be the very best Warrior.

I love that different races are better or worse at certain things.

To me it makes no sense at all not to have it this way.

If every race is exactly the same, and can do exactly the same things at the exact same level then why have different races at all. At that point they just become a different skin.

Sounds to me like just more of the "All or nothing" sandbox crowd gripping. Sandbox doesnt mean all or nothing, it means you are free to do what you want when you want. There is no assurance that you will be any good at it.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Originally posted by itchmon

i was reading this thread, and it occurred to me what vanguard would have looked like if turbine, or blizzard, or CCP, or SOME competant company had gotten its hands on it other than Sony craptastical entertainment.

 

Two major things wrong with that:

1 - Those companies only publish their own games

2 - Even if one of them had published Vanguard, Sigil would still have been the developer

Vanguard is alive today because SOE saved it. I know thats hard for some of you to swallow but it is indeed true.

 

I play WoW and I like it. I played the Vanguard free trial and I liked it and I am downloading the full game as I write this. Yes, they are different but I would not be willing to play both if they werent different.

P.S. The download is taking forever, I'm currently at 7.5 GB. How big is this game? Can anyone give me a hint?

Wow has population, thats it.
 

It is a very shallow game and easy to get into.

Vanguard has alot of offer with a small population.

So do you want to play with alot of people or do you want to play a decent game. Your decission.

Originally posted by julliuz

Nice to know about all that :)

 

but everyone does agree that a 'semi' seemless world (where you do not experience loading screens every map) is much more acceptable in an open world mmorpg then if there were right ? :)

Having hard zones doesnt bother me at all. It didnt bother me in EQ or EQ2. Even back in 99 with dial up it never took more then a minute or so to zone and now it is much much faster, seconds in most cases.

So no, not quite everyone. I would take the hard zoned maps of EQ to the soft zoned maps of WoW any day.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by safwd

Originally posted by Zorvan

Easy. If it does not release in better shape than any other mmo, and feature complete, then it is a failure. Too much to ask?

Tough titty, go blame Tasos.

Because Tasos ran his mouth Darkfall must do what no MMO has done before or it is a failure?

You have taken your hate to far and now most of what you say about this game is a joke.

ANYWAY.

The game will be a success if it releases and people enjoy it. Preferably a few hundred thousand people at least.

If it releases and is steaming garbage, never gets fixed and just dies off then its a failure.
 

- whoosh -

Zorvan's comment sorta flew past ya didn't it? :)

Hint: Go back and read some of the claims Tasos has made...

Not even a little bit.

I know what Tasos has stated, and yes, he is quite possibly an Asshat that needs to have the microphone permanently taken from him. However Tasos is but one person who in no way is the sole builder of this game, he is a salesman who is trying to sell a product. If people actually believe everything he says about it they are foolish. Salesman lie, news flash for you there.

To say that because of this Darkfall has to do what no MMO has done before it or it is complete failure is equally Asshat. Perhaps Zorvan actually knows Tasos and there is real personnal feelings here, perhaps then i could understand why he rants so much about him, if not then that is just kind of sad.

Sadly i also dont play.

After giving up EQ a few years ago i have not found a game that i thought was worth playing for any period of time. WoW had me for a few months before i finally got tired of how numbingly easy i found it.

And the real sad thing is i cant even go back. Those games i liked so long ago are not even the same games.