Originally posted by noquarter

Well, I do agree if you don't want to spend too much the 9800GT and GTS250 are in a great position right now. AMD possibly cleared out their low end inventory too quickly to make room for the low-end DX11 cards that haven't made it to the market yet. I don't think the 5750 is priced right at all, it should be a ~$130 card to compete with the GTS250 but they probably don't want to waste their limited chips at this price range currently. I think you're underestimating the speed of the 5770 though.

In xbitlab's review the 5770 actually beats the GTX260 in 7 out of 13 games at 1680x1050 and 1920x1200, losing badly in HAWX due to the engine's incompatibility with ATI's AA algorithm, and of course in Farcry 2/Crysis which always favor nVidia hardware even though noone cares about those 2 game engines except for benchmarking. At 2560x1600 the 5770 fairs even better but noone plays at that high of res on a mainstream card. Either way this is all well above the GTS250.

You have a point about the 5770 possibly being too slow to handle the enhanced graphics DX11 brings once DX11 games are out but to me since it's so close in speed to the 4870 and GTX260 and all 3 cards handle modern games plenty well there doesn't seem a point to not get the DX11 between those 3 and then add another 5770 in Crossfire if you need to later.

Well actually my reference for not needed dx 11 compatability due to lack of power was in regard to the 5750 (50); the 5770 is like $167ish which is much higher than the $90 for an off brand pny 1 gb 256 bit 250 gts

But a 5770 vs a 260 or whatever id go 5770 but thats almost double the cost of a 250.

If you loook the 5770 and 260 are pretty much up and down id rate them pretty close but i would not give an avantage to 5770, even more so when looking at it from a meta analitical way as the 4870 is better than the 5770 and then comparing all the reviews done with 4870 vs 260. AS pointed out the 5770 and 260 gtx are pretty much the same speed (7 out of 13 games favors the 5770 a bit but most review favor the 260 a bit just look them up. Anyway in one game the 260 win by a bit in another the 5770 back an forth thast pretty much what i call even). The 4870 beats the 5770 in most also but not by much I am restating this becuase follow post seemed to miss it the first time it was metioned in this post.

So basically everyone can say if you in for a$ 90-120 dollar card a gts 250 is gud.

$160-175 a 5770 is gud.

Above that is out of the scope of this topic.

PS. if you look at benches of the 5750 vs the 5770 they are rather close. But with the 5770 costing only $20-25 more why not buy a 5770.

Like i said dx11 support is good just not needed, thats my opinion (based on the fbelieve that i do not think dx 11 show wow result w/o hit to fps. And for the normal user they usually can't afford a fps hit.  People show wow dx 11 pics but those make most games unplayable due to fps cut. If you turn 100 polys into 400 polys you are always going to take a fps hit. w/ Tens it may not be as bad as having those 100 polys be 400 off the bat, but still you gonna have a large fps hit. Now 100 to 200 polys your gonna have an fps hit how big is the question.

In my experience i look for one thing mainly fps, read spped, etc. Why? Becuase after you have had a computer for a year, two, 5 years you fps will go down on the newer games being release as they require more everything.so buying the first generation of video cards that can run a new dx doesn't even seem logical becuase by the time it is properly utilized (even more so in and mmo, im sure fps will use them but then agian i want THES BEST FPS i can get in a fps, rofl) I mean i know AoC has dx10 support (it took them a while to gte it working). Eve does but i have not seen much differnce in the video quility (poor utilization), LOTR which looks better with the high res pack that with dx 10, but together i see little video improvment if at all. MMos coming out with dx 10 support, GA (just becuase i look forward to the game it would be nice to turn on dx10, but then agian i d rather have the fps), and stargate worlds.

This after years of dx 10 being out , now i understand dx 11 is wonderful and super great. But that doesn't mean its wonderful and super great features will even be used, even in games that support dx11.

My comp is a intel q6600 @ 3.1Ghz air cooled no voltage step (i got lucky)

gtx 260 OC evga

ASUS P5N-D 750i SLI

Patriot Viper 4GB (2 x 2GB)  DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) (this is how you get your cpu oc /o much voltage bump if any at all).

My rule of thumb is never buy first generation anything, and the history of hardware supports this position. (1 year down the road dx 11.1 :) maybe not but you never do know). Which makes me think why does ddr3 suck (not realyl sux but if you looked at the stop point of dd2 and were dd3 picked uo they benches are pretty much the same with lower production costs on dd2), I mean one would think that it would really help but the acctual manufaturing or design of it (and ass. hardware) has not caugth up to its potential yet. Basically they need to be faster and we are starting to see that happen now, but they still need some speed on them. I view all band new anythign like this other than sockets (and even these some times, becuase i seen a few sockets be around for but a year or two, seen new ram types last a year [actually had  acomputer a long time ago with them]).

That being said cards with dx 11 support are great.

but a 250 gts 1 gb 256 bit off brand is $90 (on brand are 125 and in this case you may want to spend 20 more dollars and hit the 5)

Where as the 5750 128-bit is $145

In almost all reviews the 5770 scorse higher than gts 250 (but not by much at all, where they are 50-300  a part in scoures and 1-2 fps, the 5850, gtx 260, 4870, 4890, etc are 2000-3500 in scoures off and 10-60 fps off ). But they do offer dx 11 support but with cards that are so low on the power range atm dx 11 support shouldn't even be your concern, and that is what i have been trying to communicate.  Unless you want to spend a lot of money but the op looked like he could upgrade just one thing and thus was limited on cash.

If he did want to spend more a 5770 is a good option at $165, but i found a few 4870 (xfx) at $150-155 and they are faster than 5770s. No dx 11 support but once again id take the 4870 for the speed (unless you upgrade video cards every two years). But others wouldn't, really its up to what the person wants a bit more power or ability to run new games in a few years with dx 11 (on medium settings, which u may have to due with both cards makeing the 5770 a good choice).

Over a month ago they banned like 35k of course the next week i saw more gold spam and bots.

So if windows 7 has poor drivers and you loss fps wityh those poor drivers xp is still faster right. Just like i said, it has a larger footprint and requirement and thus will run games slower. (mayeb if you have wonderful god computers then sure change, but most people that are asking, "should i changed to 7 from xp" proabably don't have wonderful god computers [maybe not bad ones]).

http://www.testfreaks.com/blog/information/windows-xp-vs-vista-vs-7/

Very big test but only looks at using the best setups (no 5xxx series) But like 275 sli and 4890 xfire. Basiclly windows 7 preforms a bit under xp with single card and a bit better with duel gpu's ( single god like cards). So basiclly once agian if you don't have a god machine don't switch to w7. (For now give it 2-3 years or when you want to buy a new computer, and  in that time all the drivers will be worked with and compatability will go up. And you'll safe time, money, and preformence).

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/windows_7_gaming/default.asp

Look what happens if you use a super old computer (which a ton of people have).

http://www.overclockers.com/windows-xp-vs-windows-7-benchmarks/

Edit - had to add this i used links becuase obviously people make up a ton of stuff on these forums due to their bias.

Originally posted by Cleffy
...

This is why Tesselation was such a breakthrough 2 years ago when the HD3870 shipped with it.  It eases the work developers have to do in order to address all pieces of hardware for gaming.

 

...

Tesselation with dx 11 cuts ur fps in HALF. Look up the benchmarks, and dx 11 w/o tens looks the same (to me) as dx10 (normal implenmentation). And the benches are the same. Maybe there are some more bells and whisles but i have not seen them.

Originally posted by comerb

""Originally posted by Cleffy

ATI Driver support has been solid since they merged with AMD. They outpace nVidia driver support currently."

"Just wanted to emphasize this. Cause its true. Nothing more irritating than people who haven't bough an ATI card in years putting down driver support when its been as good as or better than nVidia for awhile now."

Just looking at recently released mmos.

 Aion, champion online, DF ( 48xx newer drivers at df release on vista 64), and i bet if i played more new mmos i could tell you more. Sure anyoen can find one or two talking about driver / card issues but their a quite a few for those games (Not Df as not many people are playing that).

If i look at my dam 12-13 yearsish of mmo playing ati has and still has more driver/hardware issues with games. While they are better now , its still not as good as nvidia.

But ati is usually a better card $ to preformence. and DX11 support is good but i simply do not think its needed atm (because its not, and it will be a while until you feel like ur missing out, unless you play games just for graphics then i suggest watching movies instead).

Really, mmos are not about anything today other than what your friends are playign aions doign well. Its an awful game that has worse combat system than 10+ year old mmos. But people like it cause its cool lookin and their friends are playign it, i personally knew its combat system looked like junk but my friends are playing it so i gave it a go and well its combat system is junk. But they just banned like 16k accounts for bots/ etc. so thats good news but when i quit a few weeks ago 85% of the people i saw were bots so...

Its sad really, like CO combat system si new and maybe one of the most enjoyable ever made. But it has 0 endgame, 0 itemization (ok it has some , but might as well be 0), 0 need to group. Wonderful customization. So basicly atm mmo dev.s are left handed or right handed. Left hand great endgame, grouping = good etc (but bad combat poor character devlopment). Right hand Great customization, great combat (but no end game , bad use of grouping).  Maybe ill write about this ina  new post more.

Aion is totaly a left hand game.

Worst class development in an mmo possibly ever.

Awful combat system its dull, slow, has no tactical requirement, its always the same (NO matter what your fighting, pvp and pve )

It has a ton of end game instances and equipment, a good pvp system, and you need to group for a lot of the content.

So its about what you like, i personally demand great combat and character devlopment. I like to be challenged when playign and i like to plan out how i want my character to play. So aion is not a game for me.

If you are lookign to play around with freinds and want to get cool loot and kill strong bosses aion is a game for you.

I can also admit it despite how much i love the setting of the starwaars universe this games gameplay looks bad (and hat usually doesn't change coem conception).

Originally posted by Deto123

I personally hated the game, tried it since launch till a couple weeks ago. I really did try to like it, but thats another story. The bots and before anyone comes here and says theres next to none, are terrible. It is BS if anyone says it isn t a problem. Literally my whole guild that ent to Aion from various games mainly DAOC has left, and won t return.

SAme her ei really tried had a 25 and a 28 cleric. I just felt it combat system dull and really no enjoyment from the massive amounts of rinse and repeat grinding.

i voted robotic but i don't know.

I love robotics in other games as they usually do good damage if you pool the dps (you + pets/turrets) they also usually offer support (turrent guards the base and acts as an arlet sysytem , if it takes damage baddies are there). 

I like medics becuase healign is always the class people do not play, and if done right you can make you alone can double if not triple a teams strength.

I also like dps becuase if done well it panics the enemy.

But who knows if any of these standard assumptiosn apply to GA?

I have to say its not an mmo. It really does lack a persistant world. However, its very close and looks good enough to feel like an mmo and thats all i care about.

Originally posted by MonkeykingZX

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by Raknar

Why limit yourself to a two generation old card and also skip out of future DX11 games just cause someone tells you to go nVidia? I am rather neutral and have owned cards from both companies, but at the moment, ATI is the way to go. 5770 gives you way more for the money than anything nVidia has at the moment.

 

Don't even think of buying cards to play dx 11 games atm, unless you plan on having that card for 5 more years and even then its you just be starting to use dx 11.

dx 11 is actually being used already, dirt 2 uses it and there  i think 13 games coming out next year at the least that use it, so it would infact be a smart purchase

U think so i think time will show otherwise. Unless u want to play dirt 2 (whatever that game is or one of the other few games that will have dx11). Futhermore, dx 11 is a superset of 10.1 so if u have a card that plays 10-.01 you'll play those games just fine, maybe with one less bell or whisle but early implementation of new dx have always been poor anyway.

Originally posted by Raknar

Why limit yourself to a two generation old card and also skip out of future DX11 games just cause someone tells you to go nVidia? I am rather neutral and have owned cards from both companies, but at the moment, ATI is the way to go. 5770 gives you way more for the money than anything nVidia has at the moment.

Don't even think of buying cards to play dx 11 games atm, unless you plan on having that card for 5 more years and even then its you just be starting to use dx 11.

Originally posted by Gdemami

Is Win7 worthy? Probably not, but that means you could be also running W2K instead of XP.

The only difference that most likely will play a role here is DX10. Does your VGA or your planned VGA upgrade include DX10 support? Sooner or later, the answer will be - Yes.

Then, the right question should be: Why not Win7?

 

Because most games are dx9 and even whendx10 is present dx9 often runs faster becuase xp is faster than vista and w7 with dx10.

So basiclly, speed with mid to low range parts = xp wins everytime; speed with high range parts = xp still wins, but w7 is closer; best picture with best parts= w7 in games that support dx10.

That is why switching to w7 is never a good idea unless u need 64-bit processing for some reason or your gettigna  new computer and want to buy a cheap os (there are always ways to get OS cheap, edu or firends of friends or other more dishonest ways ).

In 3 more years you will want w7 64-bit, but until then im stickign with xp, becuase its free (i own 2 copies w/ unlimited installs) and becuase its faster (and requires less machine).

But i do miss not checking that dx10 box :)

Originally posted by Swoogie

The graphics card it really whats holding you back.

Go pick up a EVGA Nvidia  1gb GTS 250 from Newegg.com

They are $134.99 after Mail in rebate right now. Also make sure you have a 500w psu before you but it and a PCIe 2.0x16 slot

Bingo

This is perfect advice, unless thast too expensive or your willign to spend more.

But the 250 GTs is the best card for the price (and good brand)

take a look

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125285

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121333

or whatever something like that, can also get just a 250 gts 512 mb for $99 probley work the money saved.

Nvidia 9800+ but a pny for $99 after rebate, this is the best deal i seen and better than the other cards you selected.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133246

The deal is hard to beat i tried finding others in range but a gts 250 and a 4850 ati are about the same in preformence (the 9800+ are close with the gts 250 ever so smally leading, like so small). But the others cost an extra few bucks. (if your going to get the 250gts 1 gb if not there no point in gettign the 250gts over the 9800+)

Now if you care about warrenties (brand) like your goign to keep that card for more than three years ,  why in three years thgey will all sux and the $20-30 you saved now will go to buy a new $100 dollar card thats three times better that these.

However if you do go with a $120-130 card get a  250 gts 1gb , not an 4850. 250 gts run around 80% of games faster and are cooler chips.

Canceled

ATM im like playing ps2 games and torchlight and just stoped aion its so boring. But honestly, try out champions online its very fun, but swtill is not a great mmo. (its missing epic , it simply stops at fun which is better than epic w/o fun).

But i played muds, and b4 that bbs games. Duris son.

But i agree maybe gw 2 will fit this catagory, but still d2 is kinda like that. multi but not massive.

Honestly while i was playign aion becuase my  rl friends are im quiting its boring just like i thought it would be i tried tho have 1 lvl 25 and another 31.  It just no aspect of that game is fun , the pvp setup is good but the combat is trash.

I liked aspects of aoc, but really the game was released underrealized and tortage (sp?) is pretty good the the game sucks after that.

ATM the only new mmo out that has any interest for me is champions online, but alas its end game is dismel... at least i enjoy the pvp.

I found Torchlight quite fun.

Drawbacks

No multiplay. WTF

Quests are odd.

Need more infor on spells and abilities.

Pros

Fast paced

fun

tons o loot

abilities are quite different as well as auto attacks from oen weapon tot he next can greatly differ.

Oh and d3 = fail boat. Still most people don't choose good game they choose popular games, go fig.

Originally posted by Omasu

C'mon Square-Enix, don't pull this stuff. 

 

This game will be released in 2010. Yes ... on the last day possible in 2010 ... December 31st. 

http://g4tv.com/games/pc/62021/final-fantasy-xiv-online/articles/68206/Final-Fantasy-XIV-GamesCom-2009-Preview/

I'm excited about this game, but it irritates me to see companies doing stuff like this. When I first saw that there was a 2010 release date I thought subconsciously to myself ...when !?  Q1 ? Q2 ? Q3 ? Q4 ? 

"Oh ok Q4" ... but when

"Oh December" ... thats late Q4.

"December 31st" .... thats hours away from Q1 2011. Not exactly a 2010 release. 

 

I would rather them say "We are releasing FFXIV just hours before 2011 begins."

I would rather them say "If you were reading a book right now entitled 2010, there would be 364 blank pages, and half of the last page would have print."

I would rather them say "We are trying very hard for a 2010 release, but if you blink your may miss our success story."

I would rather them say "Please help us ring in the New Year with the release of our game."

I would rather them say "It's basically the end of Q4, and the beginning of us yanking you around some more."

 

Feel free to add your own.

Cheers.

Does this mean in us also?