Originally posted by Nikoz78

Originally posted by JDexter

This has got to be a joke, right?  Forgot the smileys and /sacasm tags.

If it's not a joke, then you are a scary person.

A person with balls would have been at the firings, standing up in front of the people who he was supposed to be leading.

I will admit that I was a bit emotional in writing this. It makes me sick how so many people can be so heartless.

So some don't think the game is fun and were disappointed. That gives people the sense that they have a right to say all the extreme and ugly things about a person they don't even know?

Just love how so many people in these forums think they are MMO 'experts' or something.

These forums are like a ghetto full of the most negative assholes ever assembled in one place.

Why is it so hard to believe that a huge corporation like Microsoft screwed him over? And they did! After all they did to him he still has the decency to try and speak well of them. Thats what I call professional.

I know of greed and I know the power money has over people. It's a religion of capital. It's all most people know or even consider.

I have always thought people like Raph Koster and Brad McQuaid are misunderstood and flawed artists. Laugh all you want. You say I'm "scary" because you are so 'shocked' that someone disagrees with something you believe to be a given fact.

Both these visionaries have had major failings. Koster with SWG and McQuaid with VG. Both failing because of huge corporate greed. Neither getting to fully realize their vision. Both projects destroyed due to the pursuit of more money faster.

Whats scary is the level of hate and ignorance in this thread.

Some people lost their jobs and that is terrible - almost as terrible as McQuaid losing his entire company and dream due to corporate greed. I feel sad for all at Sigil.

To McQuaid I would remind him of something Nietzsche wrote  - "what can not destroy you can only make you stronger!"

Nikoz78, were you, by any chance, in the Vanguard beta while it was funded by Microsoft? Because I was, and I agree with you, if I understand you correctly.

What I experienced in Beta 1 and Beta 2 was beautiful. The interface was completely different (about a dozen different interchangeable interfaces designed by Tom King!), there were more innovative game mechanics (wounds, spellbooks, a wider range of body customisation, et cetera), the graphics were more to my liking (dark nights, non-overbright days, tastefully magical spell effects, subtler weapon effects, more hair-like and mediaeval hair meshes, et cetera), and the rate of development was blindingly fast and very efficient. Communication with the public community and the beta testers was amazingly frequent, detailed, helpful, even personal and entertaining. Sigil didn't move on to the next milestone until the current target milestone was perfected. Microsoft's money was being put to good use.

Come the regime change at Microsoft, development slowed, the servers suffered, and Sigil generally seemed to lack the support they once had from Microsoft.

Come SOE, the interface became EverQuest II's interface, wounds were scrapped, spellbooks were scrapped, body customisation was limited, nights grew brighter, days grew brighter, cities became more like 'storybook' fantasy, animations became more comical, spell effects became floating icons, weapon effects went Final Fantasy, hair turned to EQ2-wax, and by Beta 4 the implementation of classes was visibly becoming a rushed affair. During Beta 4 and 5, milestones were being either tossed in haphazardly or dropped.

Sigil had planned Vanguard with Microsoft's funding in mind. Microsoft had been funding Sigil with the money they needed to realise their goals, but when Microsoft replaced Sigil's Microsoft associates with folks in charge of the Xbox 360, it inevitably suffered a lack of 'attention' from Microsoft. While Microsoft had initially been a match made in Heaven, Microsoft had changed and now they needed a new partner. When the deal with SOE was made, Sigil was stuck with a half-completed game which had been designed from the ground up with Microsoft's immense financial backing in mind. They now had more time and a more experienced partner, but significantly less funding. More than Microsoft's latter-day funding, but less than Microsoft's initial funding. They were indeed 'screwed' by Microsoft in favour of the console market, and SOE was willing to try catching that fall, which was valiant, but the money still couldn't compare to what Microsoft cut.

This change begot many changes. Some, I mentioned above. Others are only becoming apparent after release as patches layer in. Some elements of the initial vision made it in. Others have yet to come. Some seemed to be overridden by the influence of SOE's backing, despite claims to the contrary, or simply by the loss of a great deal of initially available funding. Others seemed to be overridden by the outcries of the late waves of unfocused beta testers with their heads stuck up their Azeroth.

The comments on Brad McQuaid's 'ego' strike me as absurd, coming as they do from anonymous players who believe they know better than a person who has made this their life -- especially a person such as Brad who spent an unprecedented amount of time on the official forums during development, with many other members of the team, interacting with the community on a very honest and human level like no major developer has ever done before. Some people are balking at how he supposedly blames Vanguard's financial quake on its players, while I must be blind to have seen no such blame being placed -- as justified as I am irritated enough to believe it would partially be. Having met and been in discussions with McQuaid and other members of the team personally, I found him an extremely down-to-earth man with whom it was a pleasure to speak with on any subject. If Sigil seems confident about Vanguard, it is passion, not ego. Ego is the MPOGD.com writer saying that Sigil has 'finally seen the light'. Ego is an MMORPG.com forumite taking pleasure in a dream like that of many would-be designers among us being dragged through a new financial Hell as if to prove that only mediocre toy-like projects 'succeed'.

I feel much worse for the throng of lost employees than I do for Brad McQuaid, of course, which is saying a great deal, because I respect and admire Brad more than any single developer anywhere.

I hope every former member of Sigil, from CEO to iguana, can pull through this without being dragged down to the current regressive shtick of certain other existing and upcoming MMOs: disregard for immersion, disregard for applicability, disregard for fascinating experiences, insultingly farcical art direction, uglily proportioned characters, et cetera. Don't abandon your principles.

Keep up the good work. Fight the good fight. Let the Vision be seen.

Someone has to do this. That classic fantasy quality which Sigil tried to capture is so lacking from this genre.

Both McQuaid and Koster are truly, damnably ahead of this industry's nervous rate of progression and are saddeningly inhibited by corporations and audiences who fail to acknowledge the perspicacity of entertainment, the applicability of fantasy, the power of interactivity therein, or to give a fuck about where we are going.

This is one of many good examples of why I respect the game more than any other:

A few moments ago, a level 22, rank 3, Siren Enchantress swam up to me in the water, mesmerised me, snickered at me, then swam away.

Originally posted by Wolflaynce
I agree with both sides of the coin, being that there was great potential, but it has been very mismanaged to the train wreck we see now. I do have one thing to add to the con side: Horrible voice acting. Very lifeless lines as compared to EQ2 at launch which were incredibly vivid.
When I played the open beta and then my 1st month, my mind was going WTF? this is bad!!! Really bad acting. I know then it caused damage to my wanting to play. Even the repetative 5-8 voice actors in Oblvion had more life. Heck, all the mobs from Doom had more life lines!

Anyway, my 2 cents. Peace out.

Wolflaynce

Hardcore is the what now?

I don't know if you have ever met or conversed with McQuaid, or otherwise paid attention to his ruminations, but your perspective of his mindset is strange and I have no idea where you are seeing these 'penalties' for not being 'hardcore', 'elite' or whatever people are saying these days.

This talk of 'failure' is disheartening.

I play Vanguard because it is the only MMO thus far that does not disgust me to the point of complete disinterest. Because it has power and dignity. Because it feels less 'sterile' than the others. Because it has some soul.

It could have been better, of course. Much better. It disappointed me plenty. But there is nothing better for me, yet. I needed a world I could immerse myself into with my friends and loved ones, and all the other MMOs seemed to fail to take themselves seriously in terms of actually creating even a slightly immersive world of any reasonable size, beauty, atmosphere -- they fail to be anything poignant to me, while Telon is a piece of artwork I liken to any decent novel, piece of music, or worthwhile dream. Vanguard is as close to EVE in pure mood and emotion that mediaeval fantasy has come at the moment, and unlike EVE it does not hinge on hypercapitalism.

Sorry for the, erm, 'fanboy' attitude, but I am being sincere.

In 1999, I played EverQuest about 4-5 hours on the average day, but there were certainly several weekends I chose to play 14-16 hours a day.

I know I couldn't do that with any MMO now if I tried.

I'm quite certain I've seen each of those on the site. Note that they are listed alphabetically, not chronologically, so you shouldn't be just looking at the last page.

Having beta tested 54 games since 1997 and played 19 released MMOs not including Vanguard, I consider it a godsend.

Is it the perfect game for me? No, I would have done many things differently. At the very least, I would have not changed since Beta 2 as much as Sigil did. Perhaps that is why I am not making games. Yet I feel it was exactly what the genre needed from my perspective -- a small but very necessary step towards finally pushing fantasy MMOs forward.

It is suffering financially, but in the current market, I am not surprised. Like EVE, it was ahead of its time and is likely to see a large increase in subscribers as the market matures. Whether it can survive long enough to benefit from this process is another matter. Hopefuly, Sigil will stick it out.

Those aren't even 'outlandish costumes'. They're cheap Halloween stuff.

I have to tell you, I'd much sooner blast people for drinking alcohol at a party than for dressing up for it.

It would help if they dressed appropriately for their body, though. The disease of LARPs everywhere is obese elves with eyeglasses.

If EverQuest's generation was the first and Dark Age of Camelot's generation was the second, I don't see how Vanguard isn't third-generation. Works for me.

It is difficult for me to take Gods and Heroes, Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, or SUN seriously.

Following Vanguard, I consider the next great titles to be: Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, and Warhammer Online, though I consider the latter to be lagging back in the second generation.

That Sacagawea strongly resembles an early Romulan Bird of Prey, Federationised.

Cryptic Studios ran into the same problem with their project, obviously.

But if CCP sticks with their expertise in building such large playing spaces as in EVE (which, yes, would be much more difficult given the density of content that would need to be in the World of Darkness as opposed to New Eden), it could work. It would be quite easy to make supernaturals the vast minority among hosts of NPC mortals in a sufficiently large space. Something the size of Vanguard's world may work if the population is capped at something less than 1500. Fill it with NPC mortals with AI routines similar to those in Bloodlines and have at it.

So what's the rumour? All I see here is something that has been fact since last November.

The 40K licence is still held by THQ. Mythic holds rights specifically for the creation of MMOs in the Warhammer Fantasy setting.

I believe THQ's licence expires in 2008, however. At least, that was the word last year. They may well have signed another contract by now. There was a rumour floating around in December about THQ's Relic beginning work on a 40K MMO, but I'm doubtful due to their lack of experience in the genre.

Not that this stopped Blizzard.

Pretty simplistic debate. Czerkaski wants non-primatial or even non-mammalian races because he sees any humanoid as 'just a weird human', seemingly ignorant of the lifetimes of research and development behind these archetypes and their firm validity on so many levels. He argues in favour of ridiculous new races like an eight year old draws monsters. 'Look! It's cool and creative and has artistic merit because it has a claw on its head for no reason! Also, it speaks Klingon and has four sexes. I have absolutely no actual thought behind this, no idea how it would evolve, live, think, mate, build, grow, or what it exists for at all, but it looks damn cool, doesn't it?'

Anyone who thinks that the deeply defined races of mediaeval fantasy are uncreative and that the use of them is 'lazy', yet somehow thinks that talking moles or spiders are creative additions... I would like to disembowel with a non-stick plastic cooking spoon.

I am not a traditionalist. I advocate anything but mortal stagnation. I do not stick with Elves and Men because they are the way things have always been done. I do it because they are strong archetypes with extremely worthwhile premises, distinct cultures, psychological dichotomies and antithetical aesthetics. I'm sorry, but it is the people who suggest races such as Czerkaski pines over who seem to be the uncreative ones. They are gung-ho about spastically creating things for the sake of creating them, but the reason or worth of creating them seems completely irrelevant in their thought processes. They seem in favour of going about the creation of races like a game of Mad Libs.

The animations look fine -- very realistic in stance and execution. As for the time between strikes, this was a topic of discussion long, long ago, before there was a beta; because back then Sigil was telling the community that combat would be in eight-second rounds, in order to allow the player to react to the many circumstances high-level combat can involve. It could be argued that the rounds should then lengthen only in higher-level combat, but that... just wouldn't feel right, would it?

We know the eight-second limit is no longer in place, but I still expect that the time between strikes will be slightly longer than most people are accustomed to, because at higher levels things become most strategically reactionary. Something that I think would be extremely difficult to capture in a video clip unless it is frozen at key frames and explained by a narrator.

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Originally posted by Ngeldu5t
I`ve always defended Vanguard but this trailer smells SOE all the way  and this is a bad move as some of the excerpts are dated.(watch some footage from E3 vid with the giant.. and the guy in Red have already been used)Until now all movies were from beta and this one does not look like beta.So,Sigil Staff I hope you know what you are doing by allowing such trailers

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Marketting is one area Sigil does not have much say in, as far as I am aware.

Friendly Disagreement > Unanimous Agreement > Unfriendly Disagreement

Debate within a development team helps the development. It breeds ideas. The best you can do for a game is bring as many major conflicting opinions as you can into a team and make them get along. If you can manage to do that -- and it is extraordinarily difficult -- you have a recipe for something great that will improve with age (see: EVE) rather than deteriorate (see: Galaxies).

Like the gene pool.