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All Posts by Velocinox

All Posts by Velocinox

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Originally posted by observer
I usually don't care about the inner workings of MMO companies, but i thought this was interesting, because it coincides with all the drama that came from the Guildmag Gamescom 2014 fiasco:

I do not think that word means what you think it means...

Producers are hardly ever integral to design. They are however the face of what the designers are pushing. They cheerlead it to the media and try to stay upbeat about the project.

 

Internally they are more akin to project engineers rather than anything dealing with what makes a game fun or not.

Originally posted by MadFrenchie

A winner or loser does not require the game to end.  If a realm takes a keep, they were the winners of that siege.  The defenders were the losers.  If defenders don't see a reason to defend the keep (going back to our conversation about real consequences to PvP), they won't bother.  Keep trading runs rampant, because it's all about grinding those sweet, sweet PvP points.  However, when there are, say, access to entire zones at stake (zones that provide resources and additional content to be experienced by the players of that realm), players tend to put more effort into holding previously taken keeps.  Then, winners and losers become tiered: a realm may lose a keep, but still be winning the war (and enjoying the benefits of winning).  This does not require either side to eventually surrender unconditionally to another and create peace (though in some MMOs it may).

 

In your first reply, you mentioned meaningful changes to the game based on player actions in PvP. Now you deny the importance of a final win or loss bringing an end to the game (The game, not the MMO)

 

These are irreconcilable goals. If you have meaningful changes to the game in favor of the winner then the losing side becomes perpetually disadvantaged. Only calling an end to the game and labeling a winner with a reset in the game will fix that situation.

 

What happens in an unregulated open world PvP MMO when one guild takes over the territory of all the other players? (Which could happen as more players leave their disadvantaged and losing guild to jump on the winning team. Because if they can't change sides and they are always losing they will leave the game period.) When this happens, you are left with meaningful changes (the guild owns the entire game world) and also the situation will never change because there will never be an end and a winner declared.

 

Territory claiming, meaningful changes and MMORPGs do not mix as I stated in the last post. You have to either give up meaningful changes, or have a definite win/lose ending.

Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by ste2000
WAR deserved to die as it was the first MMO that gave the start to this WoW clone craze that is plaguing the indudtry.

Warhammer was not the first WoW clone, and it didn't start the craze. However it is good that it's gone and won't be missed, because it was the first of this new wave of DAoC tri-faction PvP-centric PVE mmos that will all follow Warhammer Online to the trash pile shortly after release.

 

(Mark this post for future reference for it's oracle-like perceptiveness.)

do you truly believe DAoC's PvP was something atrocious and a system to be avoided like the plague

I've edited out the passive/aggressive garbage and just focused on the only discernible  question in your post.

 

PvP in MMOs are a cop out. They remove any need for the game designers to create content and just hand the players a psuedo-FPS environment to run around and fight in. There is no adventure beyond that offered by Call of Duty or Battlefield. There is no story or world to explore, just some quick leveling and then endless, repetitive fights. The best tactics become obvious and are eventually countered with the best defenses and the devs have to nerf and buff and tweak the world to make any of it seem new.

 

You can't just walk to another part of the world to see something new or get involved in another story, because the world is always the same, a battlefield, and the story is always the same, a roving mass PvP fest... it's boring, and other games do it far better than the MMORPG genre, where level and gear are more important that aim and quick reflexes.

But where, exactly, does that relate to tri-faction, keep siege, land control warfare?

Isn't that a subset of MMORPG PvP? If I have a problem with peppers why would I not have a problem with poblanos?

 

But the reason I called out Warhammer in this thread, is that first of all it was Mythic (or remnants of same) the makers of DAoC, and also this nostalgia for games that failed for reasons that keep being attempted (as if the time has come to repeat failure) spawns more of these attempts to mix oil and water.

 

Seems to me that your issue isn't with what made DAoC or tri-faction PvP unique, but what all PvP in MMOs have in common.  The environments are static, keeps change hands (nowadays) with little to no consequence to players of each realm in the big picture, and the PvE component has taken a backseat to the PvP.  I get your beef with that.  Only two of the aforementioned apply to DAoC's lauded RvR system: static environments and PvE taking a backseat.   As such, I agree MMO Devs should take a good, hard look at those areas and improve in the future.

Of course, I illustrated above that being uninterested in the superset obviously includes being uninterested in the subset.

 

But, since you bring it up, much of what was lauded about DAoC onvolved them being the only structured MMORPG PvP game at the time. (UO being open-world, and EQ being mostly PvE) And, the memories and nostalgia associated with it are simply the effect of playing any game for a long time.

 

Free-form siege warfare was a big thing WAR lacked.  Zenimax got that right.  However, (at least at release) Zeni forgot to create real and easily measurable consequences to PvP wins and losses.  More than likely, because they did not want to scare off PvE players who disdain PvP.  That becomes confusing, then, when they place a lot of PvE content inside the PvP area.  It also backfires, as PvE players will just end up ganked and angry that said content is in Cyrodiil.  I liked the Darkness Falls of DAoC much better; it provided a zone available only to the realm that owned the majority of the frontiers.  PvE players could farm and/or grind here with relative impunity from the other realms, only coming out for PvP to help their fellow realmmates take the dungeon.  To me, this is much easier to swallow (and overall, more enjoyable) than, "Well, we own the keep up there, so I guess it'd be safe to hit that camp..."

"However, (at least at release) Zeni forgot to create real and easily measurable consequences to PvP wins and losses."

Of course they didn't. Those can't be created in an MMORPG setting. you have to have winners and losers, you have to end the game when the situation becomes untenable for the losing side. This is the antithesis of the MMORPG which replicates Tabletop RPGs where they are defined by the fact that there are no winners and loses, and the end of the game isn't assumed as it would be in a more competitive game.

 

I would argue the PvE backseat countered by ESO's PvE side.  Though I don't like the way Zenimax makes soloing the best possible method to progress, I don't think anyone can argue there's not a world to explore or a story to see unfold in the PvE zones.

And yet the existence of the PvP aspect of the game and the tri-faction set up means there were less development resources that could be committed to the PvE aspects of building the world and creating a richer story. Which means that the very nature of MMORPG PvP (ultimately an antithetic gamestyle) diminishes the over all game. Either make a competitive game with all efforts contributing to that, or make a cooperative game with all efforts contributing to that. the hybrid satisfies neither, and as I have shown, the cooperative nature of RPGs and the competitive nature of PvP gaming dilute the attributes of the other.

 

 In short, I just wasn't sure why you decided tri-faction (or the free form siege warfare of DAoC) was the evil to be avoided.  I feel the areas to be avoided are more general PvP pitfalls.

Yes, that MMORPGs make poor game types for PvP competition.

Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by ste2000
WAR deserved to die as it was the first MMO that gave the start to this WoW clone craze that is plaguing the indudtry.

Warhammer was not the first WoW clone, and it didn't start the craze. However it is good that it's gone and won't be missed, because it was the first of this new wave of DAoC tri-faction PvP-centric PVE mmos that will all follow Warhammer Online to the trash pile shortly after release.

 

(Mark this post for future reference for it's oracle-like perceptiveness.)

do you truly believe DAoC's PvP was something atrocious and a system to be avoided like the plague

I've edited out the passive/aggressive garbage and just focused on the only discernible  question in your post.

 

PvP in MMOs are a cop out. They remove any need for the game designers to create content and just hand the players a psuedo-FPS environment to run around and fight in. There is no adventure beyond that offered by Call of Duty or Battlefield. There is no story or world to explore, just some quick leveling and then endless, repetitive fights. The best tactics become obvious and are eventually countered with the best defenses and the devs have to nerf and buff and tweak the world to make any of it seem new.

 

You can't just walk to another part of the world to see something new or get involved in another story, because the world is always the same, a battlefield, and the story is always the same, a roving mass PvP fest... it's boring, and other games do it far better than the MMORPG genre, where level and gear are more important that aim and quick reflexes.

Originally posted by ste2000
WAR deserved to die as it was the first MMO that gave the start to this WoW clone craze that is plaguing the indudtry.

Warhammer was not the first WoW clone, and it didn't start the craze. However it is good that it's gone and won't be missed, because it was the first of this new wave of DAoC tri-faction PvP-centric PVE mmos that will all follow Warhammer Online to the trash pile shortly after release.

 

(Mark this post for future reference for it's oracle-like perceptiveness.)


Originally posted by Dranny Really so I must have been dreaming when the CU hit then, seeing all the players protesting outside Cnet Thread and other places. watching prime locations that used to be the place to have your house now deserted. sure I must have got it all wrong. I didn't play much longer after the CU hit as my guild and most of my friends quit playing.
 

Here's a quote from the Wikipedia entry...


Media outlets criticized the changes of the "Combat Upgrade"[47][48] while subscription cancellations rose.[49] After the New Game Enhancements were implemented in November 2005, sparking huge demonstrations in-game from the majority of players,[50] various media outlets criticized the reduced depth and complexity of the game,[51][52][53][54] but John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment, defended the decision claiming it necessary to revamp the game in order to reverse the deterioration they were seeing in the subscriber base.[55] SOE offered refunds on the Trials of Obi-Wan expansion due to it being released two days before the New Game Enhancement was announced.[56] The development team affirmed this was their desired direction for the game and that they would modify parameters to address player's concerns.[57] Features such as expertise trees were later added to the game to add complexity and differentiation to characters. After the announcement that SOE had acquired the game Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Smedley addressed that game's players about the perceived threat of major changes to the game: "We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players."[58]

I was there for both... you're wrong.

 

 


Originally posted by Orious

Originally posted by flizzer

Originally posted by The.agG If this isn't a post showing the rose-tinted glasses among MMO players, then i don't know what is.
I have to agree.   The most amazing game of all time cancelled!  There must have been some problems, no?
It was cancelled after they went from a unique/innovative gameplay strategy to be more in-line with WoW/modern strategies. That's when most people quit.
And what prompted them to change it? because it was successful and had plenty of players?

 

Nope. It was a failure and they were trying to attract more customers. If the world wanted SWG, they would have played SWG.

 

Can't keep the lights on with 20K subs.

 


Originally posted by Dranny The CU was the worst thing to happen to SWG they lost so many subs when it hit, I remember all the protests about the CU and still they went live with it. Guess they didn't want to listen to the players anymore and just wanted to be like wow.

You don't even remember it right. The CU didn't lose players. It only changed combat, and even then only a bit and was mostly well received after the fear of change died down. it was the NGE that changed everything and lost the last of the few subs it had.
 

Low hanging fruit.
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Quizzical
Considering how little GW2 has in common with FFXIV, I find it implausible that they could both be clones of the same other game.

Exactly why not just call DF and EVE UO clones if you're using such criteria.

Ha! Didn't even see your reply.

 

great minds.

Originally posted by Parepin

1. Guild Wars 2 - EQ Clone

2. The Secret World - EQ Clone

3. Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - EQ Clone

4. Rift - EQ Clone

5. Darkfall: Unholy Wars - UO Clone

6. WildStar - EQ Clone

7. EVE Online - MP Elite Clone

Fixed.

Well it really comes down to the what the carebears dislike so much about the crybabies. The carebears seek to play a game by finding a place in that game they like and play it, as is. (Read: Mace stun spec rogue from old school WoW for example) but then the crybabies (and here is where they get their name) cry on the forums about the stun lock rogue being too powerful in PvP. The carebear didn't care about the build's power in PvP, he liked it because it made a fun rogue in PvE. but he was jumped one time and he owned the crybaby. The crybaby immediately logged off and ran to the forums to cry about his loss. (Check any PvP MMO forums for confirmation of this tactic.)

 

Carebears are typically happy to live with the builds that game designers make. They dislike change more than initial differences. They hate nerfs. On the other hand, the crybaby prefers nerfs. If he can get the other classes nerfed he stands a better chance to beat them in PvP. The carebear on the other hand hopes all classes are powerful so the group can wade through content more efficiently.

 

(NOTE: I prefer the terms PvEr (for carebears) and PvPer (for crybabies) but this whole thread is using the derogatory term for PvErs, so I figure the reciprocal would be acceptable as well.)

Well, one thing is clear. Fallout 3 was one thing or another. Either 3D or not, this or the other...

 

It sure couldn't be both, that wouldn't allow another internet argument!

Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by delete5230

Important

Please explain this :

Swordsman, a soon to be release Asian MMO by Perfect World Entertainment will be F2P. 

THIS GAME IS NOT CHARGING $150 !!!!!!

 

ArchAge or Swordsman, good or bad whats the difference ?

They're charging $60 for a hero pack. Do you need someone to hold your hand and explain why some things cost more than other now ?

And if it wasn't for the consumer pushing back, the price would have been $120

 

He's no more at fault than the company you're defending. It's two sides of the system of price balance.

I'm not defending anyone. He's acting all surprised that a company would charge $150 for a f2p game. Obviously the people paying saw value in it so they bought it. This is right in there with I don't like it so no one else should. Something all too common around here.

And if enough people do buy it at $150 good for the company. And the comment about defending seemed apparent, but you're right I might have assumed there.

 

All I was saying, is he doesn't need a lesson just because he's exercising his right as a consumer. Trust me I see both sides of this issue, On one hand I hope I get a raise, on the other I really don't want to see the games I play end up being buy-ins for a $150 character or a $400 spaceship. (but apparently that's exactly what this market is bearing.)

Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by delete5230

Important

Please explain this :

Swordsman, a soon to be release Asian MMO by Perfect World Entertainment will be F2P. 

THIS GAME IS NOT CHARGING $150 !!!!!!

 

ArchAge or Swordsman, good or bad whats the difference ?

They're charging $60 for a hero pack. Do you need someone to hold your hand and explain why some things cost more than other now ?

And if it wasn't for the consumer pushing back, the price would have been $120

 

He's no more at fault than the company you're defending. It's two sides of the system of price balance.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Velocinox
I can't use it to escape, it's my job.

In what sense? I mean, I work for CCP, but I can still get lost in the universe of New Eden, the world of Nave, the land of Dereth, etc. Is it that you review/blog about MMOs? If so, I can see how you'd be coming at the games from a different angle, but there would still be some you play just for entertainment, no?

What part of your job hinders your immersion into MMOs, and why do you feel it does that?

No, I'm a designer. When I play most computer games its always an analysis. That's great dialogue, the tree must have been huge, kudos to them. Look at that animation, did you see that hitch? We need to send our walk animation back for another pass. It's almost there but not quite. That was a long quest, but was it fun? It seemed to drag in the middle there, we could have gotten to the point faster on that one. Man we could have cleaned this up a lot more if we had more time...

 

I'm thinking about what it took, how well/poor another design team did, notable new approaches to a problem I see, etc... I'm just always working the problem rather then getting lost in the narrative. Don't get me wrong, I can get lost in a frenetic game like an FPS, but that's hardly an escape. Honestly for escape I turn to tabletop now, and I still have a tendency to think, how can we get that moment into our game?

I can't use it to escape, it's my job.

A great  guy and good friend. Rest in Peace buddy, you've cast off your physical chains.

Companies won't give credit to individual deeds in game design, but among many other aspects of the game, Ben was in charge of making the Village of Aurilla when word came down for the last Jedi change. The designers were never happy with holocron grinding and the random profession unlock had it's own problems that are still hotly debated by those that knew the system and those that tried to unlock it.

 

He tried to make the best of an easier Jedi unlock (not his decision) so he gave the players a fun place to do it. His mind was always on the players enjoyment even while those above him scrambled to appease the bottom line or their own sense of self-worth as a game designer. Regardless of the lofty goals of the design being discussed his focus was always on the player. What did they get out of it. Was it fun? Always that question; Will the player enjoy it?

 

Thanks for being a teacher.

 

 

While I was interested in this game originally and I appreciate it being a beacon for successful crowd sourcing, the selling of what is essentially cash shop fluff and P2W items for prices that make a full game box price seem like a half price deal is currently transitioning from vaguely unsettling to disturbingly pertinent in my mind.
A better statistic for this thread is how many of you have gotten viruses hitting all these Chinese websites looking for confirmation and facts. :)
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