Some days I think if I were rich I'd bankroll Simutronics (although I might get them some project managers to crack the whip on them a bit).

Originally posted by Amathe

The engine seems to be enjoying some success. But I don't play game engines. I play games. 

Success how? It's selling ya, but if it delivered on its main promise (MMO Development at LIGHTINING SPEED), we'd see a game out on it by now.

Originally posted by pencilrick

My guild is still holding out for this game.  In fact, we have cancelled all our other MMO accounts; that's how confident we are.

Be confident all you want, but Simu hasn't had anybody working on the game since they laid them off about a year ago.

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Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

FF XI was to me the game with the best class system ever..
 
Why?
 
Next to diversity it also made people play lower level content, because you could level different parts of your character there was allways a group to be found, lower level places never felt empty, people allways returened.
 
I know we will not see this system back in the FF XIV, which makes me kinda sad.

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WTF? REALLY?
The class system of FFXI is why I keep coming back. Are they INSANE? That class system was the single most innovative and well designed systems ever come up with. The fact it hasn't been copied to every MMO out there isn't a reflection on the system being bad as much as it is on MMO companies greed.

The fact I can play any job I want and not have to flip characters was like somebody at SE listened to players, understood their gripes, and fixed several with one elegant system that nobody though of (or at least nobody implemented properly) before.

If FFXIV doesn't include this system, it won't live up to FFXI's legacy, and you're going to lose out on a lot of your loyal fans.

I'm a sad panda...

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Originally posted by nobrains8503

Not sure if any info has been released but does anyone else hope that you don't have to sit/kneel after almost every battle to heal up?
That's my one "I hope it's not the same as ffxi".

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It sounds great on paper, but it added a level of difficulty you just don't see in the 'faster' WOW clones. By putting the health and mana regen in the hands of each player instead of whether or not you're engaged in battle added a special dynamic to each encounter.

It was an annoying system, but a necessary one without which FFXI would have just faded into the background of mediocrity.

That's not to say the system was without its faults, but I certainly hope that SE's designers don't take WOW's approach and just give players what they ask for. As a system designer, you have to look at why people liked your game, and understand the reasons behind their criticism, then try to resolve THAT problem.

For FFXI's /heal critics, one underlying issue was that it made soloing virtually impossible. They resolved that fairly well by allowing xp chains for lower mobs, adding some increased mana and health regen when solo, adding a whole solo system for each area, and giving other special bonuses that would limit the time spent /heal-ing while solo.

I would say, as a game player and critic, be careful of what you wish for. Because you might find the game you asked for isn't something you want to play. And you'll only have yourself (and people like you) to blame.

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by Valendros

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=125929541996928963&num=56&page=1

In short, yes they will be doing this. Next question.

 

 

#1 Copy and paste? Don't want to infect my computer with alakhazam cookies ... don't trust them ...

#2 Lifetime membership ... (Yes, Please)

 

You are making more and more sense to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie

Read, learn, and stop perpetuating the misconceptions.

FFXIV is going for a very aggressive timetable. From this we can assume they are using some other game as a template. Something they can point their developers to as a completed product to strive for while their world and story designers are cranking on their projects...

So lets assume their template is FFXI.

What would you like to see changed, added, or removed from FFXI as it currently stands that would make you try FFXIV?

What would you NOT like to see changed, added or removed from FFXI as it currently stands that would make you NOT try FFXIV?

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We could all increase accuracy and efficiency while typing if we changed the keyboard layout, but we don't because it is familiar.

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Well, the Dvorak keyboard system is hands down better. I mean the max people can get on QWERTY is ~130 WPM and on Dvorak there's people pushing 210+. I've tried to learn it, and had mixed results... 

Never got quite up to my old typing speed, cause my boss would see that I'm typing slowly, realize I'm trying to learn Dvorak again, and give me more work... damn smart bosses...
 
At any rate, back on topic...

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Programmers do not control the community; the players do. You cannot program the game to make people play one way or another.

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Well, while I agree it's not programmers themselves, they're really just code monkeys for the developer. But the crux of the issue is that the developers DO control the community to a very large degree. How could you have played FFXI for almost as long as I have and not know that?
The entire reason behind FFXI's excellent community is the design of the systems. If you design systems that penalize you for grouping, people wont group and you get a crappy community out of it. If you design systems that facilitate, promote, even force grouping and player to player interaction, then you get a thriving economy and community out of it. FFXI is the proof of that. Every system is designed for player to player interaction from the AH, Mob drops, critter placement and respawns, spells & abilities, down to the design of the classes themselves.
That's not to say they got it perfect, there's many things that would have helped even more, and they should have done... Maybe this requires a new topic...

Originally posted by LotosSlayer

For FFXI you could only use credit cards.. No bank cards, no mail, no paypal, no pre-paid gamecards and as of August 2009 you can't use pre-paid debit cards since now they use that new pointless Visa/Mastercard Secure Code thing(the only MMo to do that) and debit cards don't have that. I don't have access to any credit cards and it's the only reason I'm not playing FFXI right now. I really hope they actually start caring about their customers and add more payment options or me and I'm sure a lot of other people won't be able to play FFXIV. ):

ffxiv.zam.com/story.html

In short, yes they will be doing this. Next question.

 edit: changed the link for smelly britches down there.

EQ2 came out the same month as WOW, but that doesn't really matter... The standard isn't about what comes out first, it's about which is most popular. If a game company comes in and wants to duplicate a system that's well liked in WOW, they aren't doing it because EQ did it 4 years earlier. They're doing it because WOW has the largest playerbase (and they want a large playerbase, so lets copy the people that have what we want).

He's saying none of the games are like WOW, and I'm saying where many other games are like WOW, FFXI is severely not like it.

WOW did what a lot of highly successful inventors do. WOW took from all the best ideas from all the other games out there and brought them together into a single game. Easy. Then they made it so anybody could play (just like the Wii).

FFXI didn't. For a vast majority of their content and system design, FFXI did its own thing.

Take any system that was popular and well received by many players.

WOW Copied the system with a basic copy & paste. - As did LOTRO, EQ2, and too may other games to count.
FFXI asked why people liked the system. They figured out the underlying reasons and improved upon the system, then put it together so it blended flawlessly with the other systems.

That's the difference. SE's attention to detail shines just as brightly as turbine's lack of detail.

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At one point cars didn't have passenger side airbags; now a days it is pretty standard.

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This has just led to a severe lack of imagination and true innovation in the auto industry. The Big 3 have been making the same cars year after year instead of coming up with risky changes they all pump out the same crap and that has led to a sharp rise in foreign car sales and in all likelihood will see the end of at least one of these decades old companies.

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Are you going to say that Sony and Microsoft are "cloning" the Wii?

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The Wii did something innovative. They read the market and took a huge risk coming out with an underpowered, easy-to-use, fun game platform. Without that innovation, nobody would be trying to imitate them.

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I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO.

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You need to take a step back from WoW. EQ2, WoW, LORTO, and even FFXI all have roots in the original Everquest

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However you do see similarities ... because they are both FPS.

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That's not to say I can't enjoy them separately for their stories.

As such, LOTRO, EQ2, and WOW are extremely similar. As they have the same look and feel, and many of identically designed systems, but separate and unique story lines.

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The major thing to look at isn't the aesthetics of the game which you are focusing on. It is the game itself.

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I'm not just looking at the aesthetics; I'm looking at system design, community design... basically everything EXCEPT lore. Lore is fine, they all have different lore and story. They have to or they would be sued. Lore and story, yes. I do like the lore of each of the games, and I enjoy the story as it unfolds. That's what you focus on and the source of our argument. That and my use of the word “Clone” as you are taking a literal definition… by ‘clone’ most people know what I’m talking about, there just isn’t a good single word to use for:

A series of systems that all have the identical look and feel of another series of systems from another game. WOW & LOTRO have identical look, feel and underlying design of systems, where FFXI, while influenced by other games, does not have an identical look, feel or underlying design of its systems.

Yes, MMOs are all going to be alike, as you have an avatar that moves through 3d space, you typically have points of some kind be they experience, health, power, etc, you get better as you progress through the game, there are story elements that facilitate you forward through the game, etc.

The bottom line, which you are failing to see, rather spectacularly in fact, is simple... When you strip away the story and lore, and you look at game design, the literal code behind the game. The design of each system, the look and feel of the game...

LOTRO is 90% WOW
EQ2 is 95% WOW
FFXI is say 30% WOW, if that

Of course those #'s are all arbitrary, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say. FFXIV should stick to its roots of being a game set apart from WOW, not try to incorporate what people see as WOW's strengths into itself. FFXI is a great game BECAUSE of its differences, not because of its similarities.

 If it's on 360 or not, I really hope SE takes the time to properly code FFXIV for the PS3. The PS3 can do SO much more than most game developers are currently doing, and if FFXIV takes advantage of that, it will stand the test of time. Where if it just ports a PC-based code, it won't look as good and certainly wont perform as well.

Originally posted by zanfire

it doesnt matter what system FF14 comes to, if its anything like FFXI the immature and annoying players (who exist on EVERY console and PC) will weed themselves out once they realize its not worth all the time and money to just piss people off. I mean look at FFXI, its one of the best communitys in game and its the only cross platform MMO.

im personaly going to play it on console (my ps3) first becuase i can garuntee my PC is not going to be able to handel the game, i just dont have the money to put into upgrading, so wont quite a few people i know.

See, I disagree on the reason why it has the best community. I feel it's the best simply because through strategic system design, they force player interaction, thus forcing people to constantly evolve with their character.

For example: It's one thing to accidently kill yourself because you're a dummy, but if you kill other people consistantly, only a true jerk would consistantly let a group of people down through foolishness before learning how to fix their ways. You only have to use a -GA spell and link a whole room of cave-berries once before you never do it again.

FFXI forced that interaction from the auction house to drops to grouping to mission and quest design. They could have done a bit better job on the group system to facilitate it more, but for the most part, the game design and overall system design just garner a more intelligent and community-oriented player, not that it attracts them - the game changes people that aren't typically community oriented into people that are.

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Originally posted by ic0n67
>.> hang on ... you know this and accept this and you still call LORTO a clone of WOW?
Long story short on Wednesday night I typed a nice long counter argument to your last post. Lost of example inside and outside the realm of gaming. Talked about industry standards and such . It was really amazing if I do say so myself. Took nearly 3 hours. I ended up accidently hitting a link and it erased everything I wrote... I basically cried myself to sleep that night.
Any yes ... I have played FFXI ... since NA launch ... I probably have played more longer and more often than you ... just saying. http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=19030

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LOTRO IS a clone of WOW. Since you have spent so much time in FFXI, do you not agree with the fact that EQ2, WOW, LOTRO and virtually ever game released SINCE WOW is in one side of the spectrum, each with common traits and curious similarities... Where FFXI is a game without an easily comparable twin?

I don't see how you can sit there and say that you don't see the similarities of many games to WOW when you've claimed to play WOW & FFXI. It's not just that they needed the game to be controller-friendly either, it's that they didn't use WOW as a template to constantly refer back to every time they designed a new system.

Now I'm talking about system design (user interface, battle systems, quest system, drop system, crafting, AH and the resulting community atmosphere) maybe you're talking about lore and how they all have unique story lines, races, and ultimate goals.

If I didn't know different, it's like EQ2, WOW & LOTRO all used the same engine to create their games. It's like how all games developed with Unreal Engine 3 look, feel, react, and work very similarly, from metal of honor to bioshock. They are different and unique games, each with their own story. But it feels more like you're playing an expansion or add-on of the same game rather than a whole new game.

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i dont know if i can find the quote but they did say exactly that "races wthis time around will have a much smaller effect on how the player wants to play". they said they want people to pick more for the look (they also want people who played FFXI to feel "at home" by recreating their character and it not effecting how they play. if you look through some of the gamescon interveiws you should find it, by they did say they want it to be more of an aesthetic then to define what class you pick.

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There was gear to mitigate the differences between the races pretty well in FFXI. The only real place you would see it is with a Taru vs Galka Paladin. Taru Paladins had virtually limitless hate generating ability from their enormous mana pool (when you did the math, they had 2x the health of a Galka), but since Galka (or really anybody but Taru) had the natural Vitality and high HP pool, they could take the big hits that would instantly kill any Taru. But really, Paladin was basically the only place you saw any measurable difference at all.

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Forcing you to reroll a new character in order to experience a different class is good business.

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A) Storage Space - Though there are a lot of ways to get this now without having the alts, it still is nice since you need lower level gear for BCNMs and such. (Should be fixed by allowing the NPC storage of gear sets and special items, giving more space, allowing access to the AH from your mog house and # of items able to be sold upped to 20 - but this isn't much of an issue anymore in FFXI cause a lot of these have been implemented)

B) Growing - You can only have 7 (or is it 10) pots per character. If you farm in your house, you're going to need more space, and thus more alts. Farming can be a huge boon to your pocketbook if you have the time and patience and buck a month per alt. (Should be fixed by allowing 20 pots per account, rather than per character)

C) Crafting - You can only have 40 points over rank 60 of any crafting job. So if you wanted a rank 100 Alchemist, and a rank 100 woodworker, you're going to have to make an Alt. (should be fixed by making crafting work the same as classes. I can take off my alchemy hat, and put alchemy back to rank 60, then I can level up the next one. But always keep the total points used as 40 over rank 60)

D) Play under a different name - If you sling yours through the mud too much or just want some animinity. Although, you could also just switch servers if you care to be technical about it. (Should be fixed by allowing server moves - which they do).

E) Play as a different race - If you just want to see the difference between the races.

F) Roleplay - You want to RP a different character. << This should be the only real reason to ever make an alt. The rest should be stamped out with system design. - But seriously, I've never met a single person RPing in any MMO I've EVER played. Believe me, if I found a single person willing, I'd be busting out my thee's and thou's with the best of them. There's just nobody to play with (and the OOCers would ruin the mood anyway if there was)
 
 
Now the only reason you'd ever need to have an alt, is if you actually want another character, either to RP with or just to experience a new race. Utility alts are dumb, and the result of restrictive system design.

Originally posted by zanfire

 The whole everyone is a hybrid would be fun, but that might ultimatly lead to certain things later in the games life. mainly the whole "this is the best build" and "you need to have this and this and this to do endgame" senario. As long as the hybrid thing doesnt work to where everyone just wants to solo and alot of content still urges you to group im fine with it, i know way to many people that will freak the hell out if this turns out ot be another EZ button solo fest.

Hands down, the best part of FFXI was the multiple classes & being able to switch to any class. It lets you have a single character, not all these dumb alts.

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Originally posted by toddze

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Originally posted by Valendros

TV shows all go down hill when writers start listening to producers. Don't let what happened to Heroes happen to FF, SE. Do it right.

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Off topic:
I cant stand Heros, its a straight rip off of X-men.

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Originally posted by ic0n67 
Abbreviations done right ... for the most part.
I'll still throw out there than first off making up a abbreviation like that is retarded to begin with. Equally as retarded as calling game WoW clones to begin with. Some might warrant it. Others do not.
Question for you, Vale: Why do you consider LOTRO a wow clone? Not attacking you or anything; I'm just curious.
Is it because it is
1) in a 3d World 
2) where you look from a 3rd person perpective on your character
3) you have levels
4) you have and icon/action bar to and you use your mouse to click abilities
5) you walk with WASD
6) You have quests
... I am trying to think of more similarities but I really can't.
And i do have to agree with how bad FFXIV will be if they add a whiny  "omg my life is terrible and my wife left me be I got high and had a dream about you so you obviously love me since i'm the guy you never met before but you can't walk and you died and so I found my ex wife and got back with her and I had a serial killer in my head and omg my life is terrible" bitch-ass Matt Parkman ... One truly good episode so far this season ... the one he died. I don't even get a full episode of happiness before they bring his sorry ass back ...
EDIT:
thought of another one
7) Mining nodes

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LOTRO is a WOW clone because of three main characteristics that I can think of off the top of my head.

1) Interface. It's not just the wasd (as I move with the keypad, anyway). It's the entire look and feel of the game. You have 5 bags for your inventory which pops up identically, the NPC buy/sell/repair screen is identical, the skill icons in skill bars are identical, the group HP bars, targeting, minimap with little buttons around the edges, on-screen xp bar, chat windows... the look and feel of the game is the exact same as WOW. I bet I could make a LOTRO interface that looks so good, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

2) NPC-based economy. You sell items specifically given to you for the purpose of selling to NPCs for gold. I think this is the crux of the problem with most WOW clones, and what FFXI specifically did right that other makers should copy IT for. You can have a stable, thriving, and fair game economy with just some hard work on the design stage. a Player based economy is far superior to an NPC based one.

3) Quest-based XP. If you want to level up in LOTRO and WOW, you have quests. You can get far more XP/hour by questing than you can by killing things, or really anything else you can do. WOW is designed that way and LOTRO copied it. This causes solo play to be far preferred to group play as you can level up faster and get far more loot for your efforts.
 
Now if all you've played is EQ2, WOW, and LOTRO, then ya... LOTRO seems like it's not a WOW clone.
EQ2--WOW----LOTRO--------------------------------------------------------FFXI
But if you add FFXI into your experience, it will quickly highlight the similarities.

Originally posted by TweFoju

ya thanks, i kinda get the idea now although i still dont understand that script thing @_@

ill check on that vid later and get back to you, the IT guy in my Studio seemed to lock youtube -_-

 

and what's a windower anyway?

 

is it a term for a FFXI running in a windowed mode because if you alt tab it logs you out?

When FFXI was first released on PC, it couldn't run in windowed mode... and if you flipped back to your desktop, FFXI would close. The idea being it gave you, a PC user, an advantage over a PS2 user since they couldn't look things up.

So somebody came out with an app that would trick FFXI into a windowed mode, then came out with a bunch of plugins for it to give you different things. Viewing your XP/Hr, other's TP meters, and other things in your memlocs that you couldn't normally retrieve through just the game systems (sort of like the hate meter in WOW - but the hate meter for FFXI isn't in memlocs, thank god, still requires a bit of skill to play instead of mindlessly staring at a bar).

SE finially got it into their heads and made the game able to run from a windowed mode, but many people still use the windower because of all the nifty apps it can run.

And yes, most companies do and should block most browsing. If your IT guys are worth their salt, they'd block MMORPG.com when they see it's getting traffic.