I will say, even if they keep everything as similar as they can, for it to have even remotely the same adventurer feeling it is going to have to be either big, or have a much smaller number of players per server or both.

And when I say big, I mean big. Daggerfall big, maybe. Huge. Massive. Or you will run into other adventurers all the time and it will just suck.

And by the same token, if there are thousands of people on the same server doing stuff, that's not going to be that great either, because there can't be so many simultaneous great adventurers, even if they go the proper route and make each person just another pre-arrow adventurer instead of the chosen one or some ridiculously implausible badass.

It would be one of the hardest things to pull off well, but, bugs notwithstanding, if anyone can do it, Bethesda can.

As in the OP.

FUCK YEAH!

If it is successful, then yes. Most people are not creative, and most investors don't like taking risks. That is why we have had hordes of clones of the most successful games, books, movies, etc., forever. It is how things work.

And the best games, the most creative ones, are usually indie, or some emerging developer that got lucky and got some backing. That's how Blizzard started, that's how Arenenet got started, and so on.

So yes, if the game is successful enough to dethrone or match up to WoW as the best idea for making money, then yes, this is a near certainty.

I don't get it. Why is this bad?

---

Originally posted by fiontar
You know, it doesn't bother me personally that the CE items are underwhelming. I'm leaning towards the DCE for the Elite Skill and to show my support for Arenanet, but if I decide to just go with the DSE, that's no problem either and just saves me $20.
However, I do feel bad for Arenanet and NCSoft, because if the goal of the CE items is to encourage more people to pay an extra $20 for digital goodies, these particular goodies just aren't particularly compelling. I'd rather see them make more money, so that the financial success of the game will be more substantial and the development budget for live updates and expansions will be more than healthy. So, yeah, I'm disappointed. Not for myself or the fans, but for Arenanet, because it almost seems like someone doesn't want to maximize DCE and Physical CE sales.

---

I felt the same way, and I mentioned that I wanted something cooler like the auras or dances from GW1. But I am thinking maybe they will add something like that to the store. They need to make money, and people who support the company should get cool-looking stuff. We don't know how things play out, and maybe the Chalice and Tome are very powerful and useful, and are worth having.

I am annoyed that the only aesthetic thing is a miniature I don't like and wouldn't use even if I did, because it just does not make sense. I don't like that about Anet, this penchant for giving us miniatures that really don't make sense, like the Mini Varesh, and Koss, and so on. It's weird, and I don't like it. But that's not important, and is a personal preference. It doesn't make me enjoy Guild Wars less.

But I really like cool aesthetic things that set me apart, because yes, I like to show off and look cool. I like CEs to have some permanent aesthetic I can pull out and be like "Yes, I'm cool, and I love Anet." But maybe my albino raven and my red golem will do that better, because I can be like "That's right, I played the hell out of Guild Wars, too."

Maybe it is better than the coolest rewards are for the loyal players, because with their model, those are the ones you need to keep happy.

As far as the physical items, they are just what we'd expect, and I think what it includes is fine.

I think we can't make any final determination about whether this was a good idea or not until we see how powerful those things are and see what they include in the store.

Regardless, the game is too fun for me to let this stop me; but it does seem really weird and underwhelming for CE items.

I am actually weirded out by the line on their website: "Only a limited quantity of Collector's Editions will be made, so Pre-Purchase today to reserve your copy."

If it isn't available until April 10, I can't pre-purchase today, now can I?

---

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

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Originally posted by Betakodo
Only one guy said something about the elite skill. I thought it was kind of stupid to put something like that as a CE item. Totally not in the spirit of the original guild wars.

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You mean, it's totally unlike the imp-summoning skill that totally wasn't a Game of the Year exclusive for Guild Wars?
No, no... you're right. That totally doesn't exist. I must have imagined it.
Sigh.

---

You're right, it is totally unlike that, since the imp was to help people leveling and couldn't be used once you reached the very low level cap. But I'm glad you get how it's different.

I think this could work. I think a lot of people would resent the idea, but it would certainly get some people over that first cash shop purchase that has them so freaked out. And once they go to the cash shop, and see that it isn't pay to win, maybe they wouldn't be so scared.

Maybe a combination could work, wherein you would get some CE exclusives, and the credit toward the cash shop. That might please the most people. Either way some people are going to be upset, and those who are upset are always the most vocal.


And that said, I am quite underwhelmed with the pre-purchase content, especially the digital content. The physical content is what we have come to expect, though I was a little surprised to see a Rytlock figurine and a Rytlock companion pet. That's weird, when you could have given something else.

But those one-use items might be a boon, depending on how that ends up working, but I was really hoping for something more interesting. The Rytlock figure reminds me of the mini Varesh, but her, and Rytlock, are not the kind of pets I would ever use, because it just doesn't make sense in the game world. It feels weird, and wrong, to have a mini Rytlock running around behind you. Not to mention not everyone would be happy with a charr pet anyway.

I was expecting something more like the auras or the dances, something that is universally considered cool, but only aesthetic. These tangible bonuses of questionable usefulness and a minipet that doesn't make sense, well, doesn't make sense.




Edit: I do want to add that I really like the emerging trend of having both a CE and a digital version of the same for people who don't want the physical items.

If you don't know much, watch some videos, read some interviews, have a look at the website and read about how things work.

Because it really is obvious that you don't know hardly anything about the game, and it really sounds like you've already made a decision about it.

---

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
There isnt anything wrong with his tone, when you lok at it as a proffesor tutorring his pupils, except for the facts that the pupils dont recognise the professor yet.

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Ha! I just had this vision of a charr professor lecturing eloquently while kids listen to mp3 players and play on cellphones.

I think it's fine for the most part, and I think that is largely because we agree with what Dream Chaser is saying. But that is just because we actually know what the devs have said and what the game is about. We could have a reasoned and high-level discussion of concepts in the game because we know about them.

Most people don't. They don't understand, and if you lecture them like children or students they are going to lash out and fight back. If you treat them like they are stupid, they are not going to take it lightly. You have to explain things, but you can't be hostile and haughty when you do it. If you do, they won't listen. They won't listen and they will rage against you. I don't want awful people playing the game, but I do want people to understand what the game is about, and that won't happen if they shut people who do know out because they are rude.

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Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

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Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

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Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Damage is just what it sounds like, DPS
 Support is those skills that bring bennefit to your friends
Control is those skills that give neggatives to yout ennemies 

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 Sounds like a re designed trinity to me.
After everything I've heard, GW2 was going to do away with it.

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You've misunderstood.
What GW2 is trying to do away with is the rigid holy trinity of games like WoW, where you sit around by a dungeon and wait for a healer. You're forced to have X, Y, and Z.
Whereas in GW2, all characters have access to skills which heal, control, defend, apply conditions, and damage. So it's not exactly a trinity, since trinity implies three. Healing is of lesser importance because you really need to shut down enemies and try to kill them before they kill you. So commanding the battlefield and making sure that the enemies don't get the upper hand is exceedingly important.
You may see people heading into a dungeon with what they believe to be 'classic' trinity specs, but they'll die quickly (for reasons I've covered previously) and then go to piss and moan about it on one forum or other. "Oh, this game sucks!" But people need to break their conditioning. Really, some people are such robots, no free will at all, their autonomy eems like nothing but an illusion. But I digress.
The thing is is that it's not like the rigid holy trinity system, there are four subsets of skills and you have to use all of them in order to actually survive. Let's see if I can elaborate a bit.
Defensive
A Warrior raises his shield or a Guardian puts up a protective dome. Anyone in that dome/behind the Warrior receive less damage, or no damage.
Control
This is things like, say, the mace attack that knocks an enemy over. Not to mention confusion attacks, fear, illusions, and that sort of thing. It's basically shutting your enemy down.
Healing
All heal skills in the game are an AoE. All of them. There is no direct target healing in the game, so you're basically going to get a healing hotspot that lasts for a short time. An example of this is that one of the Engineer's heals is the healing turret, which you drop in place, and that heals people nearby it until it's destroyed. (Think of the dispenser in TF2.)
Damage
This is your basic damage. You hit something and it hurts. There are a variety of attacks that work on single target or an area of effect basis.
Conditions
From what I've seen, conditions are area of effect too. For example, an Engineer may shoot an elixir from their elixir gun which will apply a speed buff to allies, and a speed reduction to enemies within that area.
In order to succeed in Guild Wars 2, you need to use all of these things to great effect. You can be slightly better at one/some types, but not by much. The way to win is to contribute with all sorts of skills, and thus all sorts of roles. The roles being, yes, control (including conditions), support (including defensive abilities and healing), and damage.
You have to contribute of all three to win.
That doesn't sound like that rigid old holy trinity any more, now does it?

---

From what I have seen of the new trait system, you can be significantly better at certain things, not just sightly. Certainly not enough to dedicate yourself to a single part of the trinity (And Anet has said it is still a trinity, of control, damage, and support. They have said it dozens of times.), but enough that if you want to be a guardian focusing on support or a rogue focusing on damage, you can do that, and you'll be significantly better than someone who focused on something else.

And frankly, that's a good thing. I hate the idea of a speccing system that only allows us to be "slightly" better at something. They should let us really differentiate ourselves from one another. I don't want one warrior basically being like any other. That's boring, and it's not a good idea.

Obviously, they want us to switch roles on the fly and help each other out, killing mobs and supporting one another and basically killing everything. No one should be only doing one thing. That's stale, and I don't know why people want to keep doing it. But it is just as ridiculous to not let players make themselves different and significantly better at something. That's a huge part of RPGs and shouldn't be ignored.

If no one's much better than anyone else at anything, what's the point of leveling and skills and traits?


Finally, you really need to tone down your rhetoric, like a lot. You are so right with everything you say, except for this "slightly" thing and your idea that people shouldn't be better than one another at anything. But when you are so haughty and holier-than-thou, no one is going to listen to you, no matter how much you know or how right you are. And with as much as you know, I'd like for people to listen to you.

---

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser
No, because organising a server would be unrealistic.
In the real world, it would be ridiculous.
So, here's a thing - do you know why we haven't emulated the brain yet? It's because every cell in your brain is its own unique life form, which is, at any time, ready to flee or feed depending on what it needs to do. Every cell is a reactive life form. And people are much more complicated than that. You can't expect all of the people on a server to drop what they're doing to your beck and call. So realistically, an event should be completable with a maximum of 10-15 people, and it should never, ever be more than that.
There should be no events which wipe out groups of 50 because that would be so ludiicrous that it would alienate most of the people playing the game. It just wouldn't allow them any sense of achievement, because they'd realise that it would be numbers dictating whether they win or lose, not them. And that's WoW. I'm sorry, but it is. Numbers should never dictate a win or lose situation, becuase if they do then we're back to WoW. It should be a matter of player skill, strategy, and tactics.
Nothing should define the outcome of a battle other than that.
GW2 isn't EvE.
GW2 isn't WoW.
GW2 is GW2.
I, like may, am here because GW2 is GW2.
Can we please just have GW2?

---

But from what I have heard, of course we will have events, especially the big ones, that are hard, and even 50 people, since it is scaling in difficulty, can lose if they are not organized enough to do the things that are called for. For example, with the Sunless whose name I forget now, a dragon with undead hordes. You need people to fight the undead, the maintain the seige weapons, to protect the asura laser, to take down the big explosion guys, and to handle the dragon itself. That's a lot to do, and I would hope it scales such that it won't be a cake walk.

I want GW2 to be unlike WoW because I don't want events like this to be guaranteed victories. It wouldn't be as dynamic if we always won, would it?

I just say this because I want to make it clear that I want the events to be varying in difficulty, so that some are very difficult to defeat. And I feel like discussions on this topic sometimes drift away from the idea that the events should be very hard, but how many people you have shouldn't be the issue. I think this is what you were trying to say as well, but I think it might come off as wanting things easier.


But enoch, this just isn't going to happen. Anet would never do this, and I would never want them to. The whole point of scaling for your dynamic events is that you don't need this. An event that's hard should be hard if I am doing it with ten people or a hundred, but it shouldn't be impossible one way and a breeze the other. That would defeat the purpose. I would like to see events where hundreds of people are there together for a huge events, but It would totally ruin the game if you needed that many people to complete the event.

We really don't want numbers to determine victory or defeat. While that will be a component of PvP, as in actual war, strategy and planning and execution will matter there as well. But in PvE, we should never feel compelled to find an exact or minimum group of people while in the overworld in order to feel like we have a chance at defeating an event.

Of course it's possible. And of course there are people who'd like to see it. But it won't happen, at least not for a good while. Anet has said what they are focusing on, and FFA in the midst of their events is not it.

I guess warrior. They won't have ritualists or dervishes at the start. I enjoyed being a warrior, but rits were so cool.

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Originally posted by laserbrain
I read the reviews on game review sites and they seem to give this game high ratings. But when I come here it's all doom and gloom. Should I even try this game or is it really that bad? 

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Yes, it's really that bad.

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Originally posted by Fed1

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Originally posted by Leodious

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Originally posted by Fed1

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Originally posted by semantikron

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Originally posted by Anthur
It is subjective and it is not really huge. The map actually shows four zones, not one. ....
huge + huge + huge + huge = huge
edit:
http://i.imgur.com/IWhAz.jpg
i added a box to show the scale of the middle zoom (approx)

---

Not really GW2 world is only 12.5x12.5 miles - WoW comparison in link
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/68d4a45e-fe96-44c7-9b13-4bd25de47e78
Older MMOs are FAR larger and SWTOR has a single planet the size of Rift
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/df70f8fb-e970-4cb4-95d9-0107517c2fc9

---

Instead of being mean, I'm just going to link this here.
In that interview, we see this.
Colin Johanson
From a sheer content perspective, volume of game space and stuff you can do, the first Guild Wars with all the expansion packs is about the same size as Guild Wars 2 will be on release – it’s massive. When the first one came out, before any of the expansions, there were 60 designers working on it, we now have 270 who are 100 per cent focused on building Guild Wars 2.

---

And Guild Wars 1 was so much bigger than most other games, especially WoW, that I feel like you are horribly misinformed on this subject.

---

 
Did you even look at the links? MMOMAVERICK is generally respected for his World size computations.
How does having more designers change the linked dimensions?
This link on the computations and comparisons might help you out.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/306052

---

I did, quite some time ago, and most of his work looks fine. But beyond not trusting any world size computation of GW2 at this point because, frankly, how could you know about a game where we can't even see or go everywhere yet? Maverick says he based it on a very small space and very short period of time in a part of the world not on the open map. I don't think that is a very sound way (especially compared with some of the other things he does) to do the computation.

The designers isn't the pertinent part of that quote, either. It is "volume of game space and stuff you can do, the first Guild Wars with all the expansion packs is about the same size as Guild Wars 2 will be on release."

We already know Guild Wars was orders of magnitude bigger than, for example, WoW, and he said GW2 was as big. We all know Anet isn't known for lying, and I also think it is safe to assume we can't know how big GW2 is yet at all. So I think it is safe to say people are misinformed on the issue, and if not misinformed, trying to make a judgement that cannot yet be made.

Dream Chaser, you are starting to creep me out with the pro-charr propoganda. That might sound like a weird word, but that's what it is. I don't have anything against charr. In fact, I think the charr are being a bit nicer than they should considering what the humans did in Ascalon, beyond just taking over in the first place.

Aside from the asura not being totally reliant on magic (nor the charr totally reliant on physical technology), I think it is more than a little weird to suggest the asura are either stunted in development or that a charr could just "replace" magical components with mechanical ones for an even remotely similar device, let alone a better one, and you suggest both.

I really don't want to get into a huge lore debate, but I also have followed the lore very closely, and simply disagree and find what you are saying to be very strange.



All that said, this is about what looks best, and I am not sure it's a fair comparison because the charr look so different from the other races. It's the first time I've really seen a playable race that really looks and feels different from your regular humanoid races. It's just great, and added with the rich lore behind them and their very different feeling to other "beast races," perhaps most notably their unsurpassed technological ability (whereas most "beasts" are shamans or the like), I think it's really creative and kind of a feat.

The sylvari look the best as almost everything, and I think the norn look the best as warriors. I think none of the races really feel or look right as engineers other than the charr.

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Originally posted by rojo6934

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Originally posted by Leodious
It only happens when you fail, so it should be a punishment. I hope it costs enough to actually be a deterrent.
I also think it should disappear. Making broken versions of all the armor doubles the work for artist for armor. That is ridiculous and wasteful, and should never be done. It would look cool, but it isn't worth the time. You could be working on totally new armor or clothing or anything else in that time. It wouldn't take as long as brand new armor, but it is still unacceptably wasteful.
 

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its not worth the time because the game release is near so it makes more sense to focus on other things that may be done already. But putting that specific feature aside, if devs get used to make games with your "leave X thing out cos its not worth the time" way of thinking they (or anyone else) will make crap games. Leaving features out of a game "just because" is not the best idea unless it really doesnt fit anywhere in the game (story, dynamic content, combat, etc)
edit: back to the broken armor feature, if GW2 had perhaps another year before release then it would be enough time to implement such feature.

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I am not saying leave it out just because it isn't worth the effort. I am saying they should leave it out because the other things artist could do with that time is worth more. More other clothing models is worth much more, if for no other reason than they will be seen more. Ideally, people will not run around with broken armor much, so those extra models won't get much view time. Not to mention, to get broken armor you have to die several times before this will even be an issue. Another reason they aren't worth it.

Beyond that, I personally feel like it is just a bad idea in general. I think losing your armor entirely is a better visual cue than broken armor. If people aren't paying a ton of attention won't necessarily see the broken armor and therefore play with it and be at a disadvantage.

---

Originally posted by jml816

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Originally posted by Voiidiin

---

Originally posted by jml816

From an announcement on twitter, the second closed beta will be happening in late march.  Will there be another sign up period?

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I am pretty sure the last sign up period was for this upcoming beta.

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Thats what I thought but the GW2 websites homepage gives you a link to the sign ups again.  Though it says it is closed, which is why I am confused.

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I am pretty sure they won't feel the need to get more signups. They have more than a million people. That will be a large enough pool for whatever they need, and those people who were following closely enough to do that are the ones who will do the most testing and give the most feedback.

---

Originally posted by Fed1

---

Originally posted by semantikron

---

Originally posted by Anthur

It is subjective and it is not really huge. The map actually shows four zones, not one. ....

---

huge + huge + huge + huge = huge
edit:
http://i.imgur.com/IWhAz.jpg
i added a box to show the scale of the middle zoom (approx)

---

Not really GW2 world is only 12.5x12.5 miles - WoW comparison in link
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/68d4a45e-fe96-44c7-9b13-4bd25de47e78
Older MMOs are FAR larger and SWTOR has a single planet the size of Rift
http://www.mmorpg.com/photo/df70f8fb-e970-4cb4-95d9-0107517c2fc9
 
 

---

Instead of being mean, I'm just going to link this [url-http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2011/09/27/guild-wars-2-developer-interview/1]here[/url].

In that interview, we see this.

---

Colin Johanson
From a sheer content perspective, volume of game space and stuff you can do, the first Guild Wars with all the expansion packs is about the same size as Guild Wars 2 will be on release – it’s massive. When the first one came out, before any of the expansions, there were 60 designers working on it, we now have 270 who are 100 per cent focused on building Guild Wars 2.

---

And Guild Wars 1 was so much bigger than most other games, especially WoW, that I feel like you are horribly misinformed on this subject.