Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Philby

Originally posted by erictlewis

Just wait unti this goes live and a lot of folks who dont have vip status find out they got to unlock quests they done before.

Not to mention the lifers when they find out that the "free" tokens they think they can use for future expansions arent even enough to pay for the patched in content they used to get free.

 I think there is a bit of misinformation here. Or perhaps I missed something? We'll see...

 

For Eric's statement, if one stops paying a subscription in the current system, then one loses all access to the game. In the "f2p" system if one stops paying a subscription you still have access to the game but can only unlock certain things by using Turbine points.

So there is no difference for the subscriber (VIP) and the non-subscriber gets access to the game where before he wouldn't have any access.

The Lifer thing is a bit unclear.

A lifer gets all the content that he/she used to get. They are considered VIP. However, Lifers always had to purchase expansions and this is no different than before.

Where the iffy part comes in is whether or not the regular updates that Turbines used to give will resume at their regular pace and will be part of the subscription/VIP status.

Or will all new content, quests, etc that are not part of an actual full blown expansion be a la carte?

Turbine has stated that they will continue to release free updates for VIP's and using DDO as proof backs that up.

This will definitely encourage more group skirmishes as currently the skirmish system is mostly seen as a solo option fi you don't feel like doing normal quests. Really glad to see this coming up.

Originally posted by Philby

Originally posted by erictlewis

Just wait unti this goes live and a lot of folks who dont have vip status find out they got to unlock quests they done before.

Not to mention the lifers when they find out that the "free" tokens they think they can use for future expansions arent even enough to pay for the patched in content they used to get free.

So I suppose the $0 I had to pay to get the latest DDO content update was just imaginary? There's absolutely no way that Turbine could have done exactly what they said they would with VIP's not having to ever pay for content updates. Surely they must be all about making as much cash as possible all the time even from their monthly sub paying customers cause gouging your most loyal customers is obviously the best way to keep the sustained income that comes from them.

Originally posted by Illyssia

Originally posted by camdy

Originally posted by Illyssia

Originally posted by Gremrod

Originally posted by Stratford

Ugh.  What a miserable game EVE is.  I tried it, it wasn't fun.  End of story.  It completely lacks content, AND it encourages ganking.  Any game that actively encourages ganking is clearly catered to the lowest common denominator of gamers: the social misfits and aggressive basement dwellers.  No thanks, EVE.

 

Too many kids kick your sand castle down in the sandbox? We all learned to create our own content when we were kids. 

It is a shame on how many people can't use their own imagination any longer to entertain themselves with the tools they are given.

 

I'd have thought that the whole concept of Hulkageddon more an EvE themepark idea from the boys at CCP than sandbox since it isn't player generated content. Anyway, whatever reads like a space take on professional wrestling, and I guess that might make interesting and fun PvP too.

 

hulkageddon is player driven and ccp has nothing to do with it

 

If that's really the case why bother with all the permissions to use CCP art and trademarks or for that matter sell merchandise. I think it CCP endorsed PvP theme park event myself.

 

Well for one, if they didn't get CCP's permission to use the images they could get sued and two. Player run contests like this happen all the time in game without ccp's involvement besides giving the go ahead that they aren't against the rules. CCP has always been hands off on these things.

Also as a side note, none of the prizes offered are donated by CCP. All of them are donations by either organizers or other doners in game. The only out-of-game item is the hulkageddon t-shirt.

Originally posted by smitty0356

I think turbine realized that supporting the promised developement from where the game currently is to mordor was going to not make enough money with the current subscriber base, and they did the F2P model to try to pump in some capital.

While I agree that this is almost a necessary move in order for this game to reach the goals that it set out to accomplish, I think a poor management in the early game has led to it having great ambitions but unimpressive subscription numbers.  Also, this is a clever way to get around the lifetime subs they sold at launch, and getting additional funds for potions and scrolls that do various things.

I think the pain is going to come in the sense that people can find the weaknesses of this game by level 20....  and the new revolving door that will become breeland will ruin the atmosphere that this game has going for it. 

Additionally, this game has problems with spammers, hackers, macro'ers, and goldfarmers.  In a world where the game is free, this is going to be open season for this harrassment of the core playerbase.  What is worse, is that to combat the farmers, turbine will have to undercut them on their micro economy or dedicate some real resources on stopping them (which they probably should have done at launch).

I think this game made a fairly large compromise that could turn this game into the classic F2P game, and not like the LOTRO that they set out to make. 

I like the game, and hope for the best, but I see this move as a liquidation of their player base for immediate funds.

LOTRO has goldspam? I've never seen any, even on my lobies. I don't get spam mails or tells at all. Whatever turbine has done to combat that aspect of RMT is working like a charm, even in DDO I get none. As for actual gold farmers well they are in every MMO in existance and it's very difficult to fully get rid of them as long as there are people willing to buy from them so, moot point there. Also never seen any issues with hackers or macro'ers though since this game is 99% PVE hacking is largely pointless unless it's a dupe bug and macro'ing is hardly of any consequence either as again, game is PVE focused.

This post seems more like an anti-F2P troll form letter than anything.

Originally posted by Philby

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

I'm not saying they may not have had good reasons for doing what they did. That's an entirely seperate debate. However if you repeatedly say one thing and then end up doing another, the next time you say something you can't really expect people to have much confidence that you'll actualy stick with it.

Gamers seem to choose what they want to believe rather than what is most likely.  Those buying lifetime subs to games pre launch and those on the other side screaming fail of a certain game pre launch  are both examples of people thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. I have no idea what Turbine/Warner Bros. will do with the F2P version of LOTRO but if one pays attention to history, one can come up with a likely scenario.  I do understand why magic users were put into the game even going against LOTR lore but the fact that they said they wouldnt and then did comes under the heading of a lie in my book.  The "we have no plans" line is one not exclusive to game companies. When any business uses this terminalogy its usually a good time to throw up the red flag.  Ive heard it used twice by Turbine. "We have no plans to go F2P with LOTRO"  then after the F2P announcment a Turbine facebook  spokesman said " we have no plans to undermine crafting" in  reply to what possible crafted items would be available in the CS.  Appearance gear is how I skilled up tayloring and if appearance items are offered in the CS, which are pretty standard CS  items,  would not that take something that could have been given to crafters? So yes, like you Mel, I dont believe anything Turbine says at this point.

Well crafting needs a major overhaul in general but I see your point. But they have also introduced the crafting skirmish rewards like bult refine and the recipies that allow you to basicaly craft items meant exclusively for skill ups too so adding cosmetic items to the LOTRO store is offset somewhat by that for those that just want to move up the crafting tiers. I think as long as they are not putting cosmetic items into the LOTRO store that tailors can already craft that is not too bad. Also I hope that they don't make the festival cosmetic items available for purchase either as I think they should stay exclusive to those areas too.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Minsc

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by MrcdesOwnr

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by crockopoopoo

You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them.  If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Apparently, all you have to do to get some to believe you is draw up bullet points (aka facts) on a website. No wonder the world is in financial ruins. (Too bad that "financial ruins" has nothing to do with this topic.)

Proper definition of "fact": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth
2. something known to exist or to have happened

The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld.  Therefore, it is a fact.  And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.

And it will be concrete for all eternity and never change? We shall see about that one.

And, here you are attempting to put words into my mouth.  I never claimed that it is concrete.  However, for something to be a fact (their comparison of subscription plans) it is not required to be never-changing.  If it does change, then my assessment will change.  Again, I'm using facts to base my opinion about this subject rather than assumptions.

The only "fact" that you've got is that a document produced by Turbine exists. That's great, but it doesn't actually mean much in terms of the arguement that you were trying to forward. For example, during the Gulf War, the official Iraqi millitary spokesman claimed that there were no American forces inside Iraq....even as U.S. tanks were approaching his broadcast position.... That the Iraqi spokesman issued that statement is a "fact" but it didn't really have much factual bearing on the question of whether U.S. forces were in the country or not.

We don't actualy care that Turbine published a document. We care about how Turbines move will affect our game-play experience. That is the question at issue here. The content of Turbines document is so far from determinative of that it's hardly worth mentioning. But in examining that question lets look at some issues...

- Is Turbines published plan indicative of the plan that will ACTUALY be put in place when F2P goes live? We don't actualy know this, since right now it's a PROPOSED plan and the F2P is just entering beta. If you have experience as a gamer...or on the development side of things you know that ALOT of things are subject to change during beta as the Dev works out and tests implimentation details.

- Is Turbines published plan subject to rapid and drastic revision? A reasonable person only affords a claim or statement as much weight as the organization which is making that claim is likely to stand by it. Developers in general and Turbine in specific has a history of claiming one thing and then doing another in a short period of time. We've even provided examples of such statements by official Turbine spokespeople about the use of magic in the game or whether the game would go f2p. Whether such statements were intentionaly misleading or simply due to Turbine having no stability in terms of  management direction is pretty much academic.  The simple fact is that Turbine has already proven that it's statements don't carry much weight in terms of how predictive they are of what will actually happen in a few months time. Simply put, if a company states X and then does Y 3 months down the road.....when the company then claims Z, only a very foolish person would put much stock in Z actually happening.

- Finally even IF the published plan is accurate and set in stone, it doesn't provide much insight as to how existing subscribers game-play experience will be affected by the F2P move going forward.  It covers only a limited number of specific game play aspects that currently exist in the game. It doesn't answer questions like:

     . What items will be in the cash shop?

     .To what degree will a VIP players game-play experience  be adversely effected if the don't puchase those items?

    . How much buying power will the 500 TP that VIP's get each month represent in terms of said items?

    . What about new systems? If Turbine adds in another system like Legendary Items into the game will VIP's get it for free or will we have to purchase it in the cash shop?

    . What about "fun/fluff" items like outfits and fireworks and festival stuff? Previously those were all included in the price of our monthly subs. Will VIP's get equivalent access to those things going forward or will we have to purchase them in the cash shop?

   .  In the past,  content expansions like Forochel were included in our monthly subscription price. Will VIP's continue to get free access (including quests) to similar content expansions in future or will we have to pay for them in the cash shop?

    . What about new races/classes/skirmishes, etc? They have listed that we get access to the ones we currently own. What will be the cost of accessing the new ones (for VIP's) when/if they are put in?

   . To what degree will Turbine work on improving the game systems and content that are included as part of the base VIP package (as they have in the past) as opposed to simply putting in more items in the cash shop?

 . How will the new influx of F2P players effect the existing player community in LOTRO, which is a big part of the attraction of the game for many current subscribers?

  . How will the influx of F2P effect the technical aspects of the player experience....Like server lag and client resource requirements?

. How will advertisements for the cash shop be implimented. Will they occur in game? How disruptive to game play will they be?

 . To what degree will VIP's be able to ignore the existance of the cash shop in thier regular game-play and just immerse themselves in the game-play experience?

The answer to these questions and others like them will determine whether the move has relatively little effect on the play experience of existing subscribers or whether it totaly trashes it.  Yet there is no real info available as to what the answers might be .... It's possible that Turbine doesn't really have a clear feeling about the answers themselves yet. Yet the very move to the F2P/Hybrid model raises complications that simply DON'T EXIST in the current model. Furthermore DDO is only of limited use in predicting the answers to most of these...since it's an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics and architecture and entirely different user communities. It's kinda like trying to say that a V4 engine will work well in a Chevy Tahoe because it worked well in a Volkswagon Beetle.

Uhhh...actually turbine HAS answered many of the questions you posted. Want info just go to the Free-To-Play discussion forum and read http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=335135

That might actualy mean something if those very same Turbine posters hadn't posted in those very same forums that Turbine had no plans to go F2P and that it would avoid introducing overt magic use in the game.

At this point, I am skeptical as to what Turbine POSTS has any relevance to what Turbine actualy DOES over the long term.

In other words Turbine can't answer those questions by SPEAKING only by DOING.

Well in the case of your first point that could very well have been true at the time , but seeing the potential that switching to F2P had based on the success of DDO, not only for increasing revenues but for filling up the all but empty starter zones and KEEPING them full I can see why their position changed. One of the most significant factors with regards to sub levels in an MMO is churn. In other words the rate at which older players leave and new ones join. One of the beauties of going to a hybrid F2P model is that you can slow down the churn rate significantly and even end up gaining back subs due to the simple fact that when you stop subbing you are still able to play the game, albeit in a somewhat restricted fashion.

As for your second point. I'm sure they looked at all the angles regarding overt magic in the game as the lore doesn't really represent magic in that way, but I don't see any other way they could have gone. In the end LOTRO is a game and they need to provide a balanced mix of classes to provide players with enough choices to fit their playstyles. I mean you can only have so many melee classes before they start to become redundant. I think Turbine has done an excellent job in designing classes that are unique will still largely remaining close to game lore.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by MrcdesOwnr

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by crockopoopoo

You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them.  If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Apparently, all you have to do to get some to believe you is draw up bullet points (aka facts) on a website. No wonder the world is in financial ruins. (Too bad that "financial ruins" has nothing to do with this topic.)

Proper definition of "fact": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth
2. something known to exist or to have happened

The comparison of subscription plans, provided by Turbine, of the new hybrid model for LoTRO do exist in reality and must be upheld.  Therefore, it is a fact.  And, I use it to base it on my belief of what could happen.

And it will be concrete for all eternity and never change? We shall see about that one.

And, here you are attempting to put words into my mouth.  I never claimed that it is concrete.  However, for something to be a fact (their comparison of subscription plans) it is not required to be never-changing.  If it does change, then my assessment will change.  Again, I'm using facts to base my opinion about this subject rather than assumptions.

The only "fact" that you've got is that a document produced by Turbine exists. That's great, but it doesn't actually mean much in terms of the arguement that you were trying to forward. For example, during the Gulf War, the official Iraqi millitary spokesman claimed that there were no American forces inside Iraq....even as U.S. tanks were approaching his broadcast position.... That the Iraqi spokesman issued that statement is a "fact" but it didn't really have much factual bearing on the question of whether U.S. forces were in the country or not.

We don't actualy care that Turbine published a document. We care about how Turbines move will affect our game-play experience. That is the question at issue here. The content of Turbines document is so far from determinative of that it's hardly worth mentioning. But in examining that question lets look at some issues...

- Is Turbines published plan indicative of the plan that will ACTUALY be put in place when F2P goes live? We don't actualy know this, since right now it's a PROPOSED plan and the F2P is just entering beta. If you have experience as a gamer...or on the development side of things you know that ALOT of things are subject to change during beta as the Dev works out and tests implimentation details.

- Is Turbines published plan subject to rapid and drastic revision? A reasonable person only affords a claim or statement as much weight as the organization which is making that claim is likely to stand by it. Developers in general and Turbine in specific has a history of claiming one thing and then doing another in a short period of time. We've even provided examples of such statements by official Turbine spokespeople about the use of magic in the game or whether the game would go f2p. Whether such statements were intentionaly misleading or simply due to Turbine having no stability in terms of  management direction is pretty much academic.  The simple fact is that Turbine has already proven that it's statements don't carry much weight in terms of how predictive they are of what will actually happen in a few months time. Simply put, if a company states X and then does Y 3 months down the road.....when the company then claims Z, only a very foolish person would put much stock in Z actually happening.

- Finally even IF the published plan is accurate and set in stone, it doesn't provide much insight as to how existing subscribers game-play experience will be affected by the F2P move going forward.  It covers only a limited number of specific game play aspects that currently exist in the game. It doesn't answer questions like:

     . What items will be in the cash shop?

     .To what degree will a VIP players game-play experience  be adversely effected if the don't puchase those items?

    . How much buying power will the 500 TP that VIP's get each month represent in terms of said items?

    . What about new systems? If Turbine adds in another system like Legendary Items into the game will VIP's get it for free or will we have to purchase it in the cash shop?

    . What about "fun/fluff" items like outfits and fireworks and festival stuff? Previously those were all included in the price of our monthly subs. Will VIP's get equivalent access to those things going forward or will we have to purchase them in the cash shop?

   .  In the past,  content expansions like Forochel were included in our monthly subscription price. Will VIP's continue to get free access (including quests) to similar content expansions in future or will we have to pay for them in the cash shop?

    . What about new races/classes/skirmishes, etc? They have listed that we get access to the ones we currently own. What will be the cost of accessing the new ones (for VIP's) when/if they are put in?

   . To what degree will Turbine work on improving the game systems and content that are included as part of the base VIP package (as they have in the past) as opposed to simply putting in more items in the cash shop?

 . How will the new influx of F2P players effect the existing player community in LOTRO, which is a big part of the attraction of the game for many current subscribers?

  . How will the influx of F2P effect the technical aspects of the player experience....Like server lag and client resource requirements?

. How will advertisements for the cash shop be implimented. Will they occur in game? How disruptive to game play will they be?

 . To what degree will VIP's be able to ignore the existance of the cash shop in thier regular game-play and just immerse themselves in the game-play experience?

The answer to these questions and others like them will determine whether the move has relatively little effect on the play experience of existing subscribers or whether it totaly trashes it.  Yet there is no real info available as to what the answers might be .... It's possible that Turbine doesn't really have a clear feeling about the answers themselves yet. Yet the very move to the F2P/Hybrid model raises complications that simply DON'T EXIST in the current model. Furthermore DDO is only of limited use in predicting the answers to most of these...since it's an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics and architecture and entirely different user communities. It's kinda like trying to say that a V4 engine will work well in a Chevy Tahoe because it worked well in a Volkswagon Beetle.

Uhhh...actually turbine HAS answered many of the questions you posted. Want info just go to the Free-To-Play discussion forum and read http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=335135

Originally posted by Philby

PC Gamer has screens of a few of the cash shop items, one being a tome to reduce the number of kills need for a deed. A kill reduction of 50%.  These are just mock ups and will not be ingame?

Yes they are mockups but that doesn't mean they won't be ingame, but that's the reason for the beta they are measuring the tester feedback to determine exactly what they should be putting in the store.

Also many of the mockups are direct copy/paste right from the DDO Store with generic costs entered for them.

Originally posted by Philby

Originally posted by Minsc

Regardless of whether it kicks in 3 months down the road or 3 days, you still made your decision to quit based on speculation and lack of concrete evidence that this change will in fact ruin the game. You are not waiting to see what effect if any this will actually have on the game itself, if any. From the sounds of it you are also basing your decision on a lot of mis-information that is floating around about what is going to happen to current subs when they switch over to F2P.

Naw, im making my decision based on what has gone before (DDO) in F2P games .  Did you get an email from Turbine about the F2P move?  If not I will tell you the part I found laughable. Basically it said, I am now a VIP and the only thing that changes for me will be I get 500 CS tokens a month for being so loyal.  I dont have to lift a finger just keep paying my sub and they will take care of it.  Funny huh? 500 "Free tokens a month" and all it costs me is a sub fee. What I wonder will I use these tokens for since there isnt going to be anything in the shop that will affect the game?   Ive already seen a "grind alieviator" in a cash shop screen. Think there will be more gind added or do you think we will see lots of cool new xpacs coming your way? But your probably correct and if Turbine said it then it must be true.  Ive never known game companies taken over by a big corporation to lie yet.

Yeah I've got a lifetime sub so I got one of the emails. And you can use the tokens for whatever you feel like. Personally I'm going to be banking most of mine so that when they release the next expansion I won't have to pay a cent to get it. And seeing how I'm going to have 3-4000 Points by the time F2P launches that won't be a problem. Other than that I'll probably use my points to pick up the fast travel maps and maybe a few other items, but until we actually see what they are planning to sell and not just a mockup no one knows what they will be able to spend points on.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Trobon

And in an asian grind MMO that might be true. However, assuming this is ignoring what was done in DDO. It's not like right after they made the switch to the hybrid model they made the game more grindy. In fact what you have said really only applies in general to a fully F2P MMO where the only revenue is made from item malls. In a hybrid game like DDO and LotRO there is not the need to do this since a lot of revenue still comes from subscriptions.

I disagree.  Even if we accept that much of the revenue, over time, still comes from subs (which I am not entirely sure is true, over time) the influx of free players dictates that they will need to get money from these players in some way as they cost the game money in terms of supporting them.  So either grinds will increase to get them to buy ways around the grinds or they will have to cash shop more and more goodies to try to monetize these people.  Either way, it serves as two poor motivators for negative trends.  And if you look at DDO you can see this with the new class being introduced, even to subscribers, and requiring purchase on the cash shop or a lengthy grind to unlock (whereas the previous class added under P2P was simply included for all with no unlock or extra purchase).  Over the long haul I think the pressure will definitely move things more to the F2P way of things rather than the hybrid/subscription though as box sales don't exists anymore as source of revenue nor do expansion sales.  Hybrid may mean it takes longer to get some of the worst things about F2P but they will come nevertheless.

 

As per Turbine itself Premium players pay approximately 70% of the cost of a monthly sub in store purchases per month. As long as Turbine can continue to release enough content to keep Premium players spending around that much then there is no need to gouge VIP's. VIP's are happy cause they're getting new content with their sub and Turbine has gets more money from the Premiums when they buy the content unlocks. VIP subs + Freemium cash is better than just VIP subs or just F2P cash shop income alone. Also you REAALLY need to stop beating the dead horse that is your weak argument about the favoured soul being purposefully added as a high favour unlock, the argument is beyond weak. Yet another example of how the argument fails: DDO Monk is to WoW warrior as DDO Favoured Soul is to WoW Death Knight. The onlly difference is that it doesn't cost $40 to unlock the favoured soul.

 

People make the mistake in seeing this F2P hybrid thing as a way for them to draw in more subscribers when it clearly is not intended to do that.  Instead, the hybrid F2P model is about conditioning subscribers to the F2P model in a way that is not threatening to start and that will soften the blow over time.  How can we know this, well, easy - if the goal was to get more subscribers then the cash shop stuff would all be unnecessary and things would be structured around you paying X dollars per month to get access to this or that area while having the cheaper option of less than X to get all access per month.  By example, you buy monthly access to two or three areas for $5 or $10 a month or buy all access for $15 where buying all the areas individually costs more than the $15.  What they are doing, however, is selling the areas without time restrictions so there is no direct comparison to the subscription, and over time as the revenue from people's one time purchase of the various areas is not coming in anymore the game will need to shift to more F2P type stuff to drive more revenue (i.e. grind avoidance or direct purchasing of power in cash shop).

 

The tinfoil hattery is strong in this post.

Originally posted by xx19kilosold

Originally posted by Minsc

Well that and DDO's F2P model where VIP's get exactly what they did before the game went F2P. Following that example those "marketing bullet points" that Turbine are acceptable as proof that they intend to keep thier promises in LOTRO as well.

Wrong, that is not a true statement. Go look for yourself.  http://forums.ddo.com/

And what exactly am I supposed to be looking for on the DDO main forums page? If you're going to refute the word of someone who is currently subscribed to the game you could at least provide a proper link.

Originally posted by xx19kilosold

Great points here man.

 

Thats the thing people are not even attempting to think about. Yes, right after relaunch with F2P things will look very similar. These companies are not stupid, they are not going to huck up the cash shop right away. They will over the next year gradually add things into the cash shop that would of been shouted down by the masses at the beggining.

Whether they add them now or down the road if they directly affect your primary income source (VIP's) and piss them off they will leave, meaning you lose a big chunk of your revenue. You seem to be trying to apply the same Asian straight F2P/cash shop business model to Turbine's Hybrid model which is incorrect as Turbine's model still relies heavily on monthly sub income. In Turbine's model the VIP's are the upper bar they measure income by as $15 a month is pretty much the max most will pay per month to play an mmo. Ideally they want as many to be paying the monthly sub as possible.

Then contet development's number one priority will be "What sells in the shop" everthing else will be tertiary to that one design aspect. Subscriptions will never again hold the same value they do now, it goes against the whole priciple of the revenue model.

They already know what sells best in the shop, consumables and adventure packs. There's no mystery here all they need to do is keep releasing content which keeps VIP's happy and continuing to sub, and creates more items for the Premiums to buy in the LOTRO Store. Adding equipment doesn't make sense as it would undermine the ingame economy or it would have to be so expensive almost no-one would buy it. In the Hybrid model Subscribers actually gain value as they have unlimited access to all content (not including paid xpacs of course) and they get a monthly allotment of points to spend how they see fit on convenience items that Premiums have to pay for. Lifetime subs make out the best of all.

The new update for DDO has made some changes to some classes, in order to respec one must purchase it through the Store. Latest example from Turbine run F2P game. There are many other changes that are pretty bad as well, go read the forums for DDO people, Turbine WILL change the focus of the game. If people like it, fine, but coming out and calling people out for hysteria when there is a case to study by the same company already out is silly.

This is patently false. In order to respec you need siberys shards and time if you are just doing a few feats, or if you want to completely redo your character you need the True Heart of Wood which is available either in the store or by collecting epic dungeon tokens. None of the posts about characters using the Heart of Wood that I've read mentioned that they had to buy the item from the DDO store at all so obviously you don't NEED to purchase them from the DDO Store.

Originally posted by crockopoopoo

You claim to have 'the facts' but what you really have is marketing bullet points that Turbine has provided to those who are gullible enough to believe them.  If you've followed these games for any length of time (or any kind of business really), you know that anything a game developer says should be taken with a grain of salt.

Well that and DDO's F2P model where VIP's get exactly what they did before the game went F2P. Following that example those "marketing bullet points" that Turbine are acceptable as proof that they intend to keep thier promises in LOTRO as well.

Yes, it is conjecture when I assume that Turbine will eventually put items into the cash shop that are not available to anyone (VIPs included) unless they buy more points over and above their sub fee.  The whole reason Turbine is moving to this business model is because they are counting on that happening eventually.  It's how they will generate extra revenue.  It's really not hard to understand, nor is it hard to imagine it being their best case scenario.

Again DDO can be used to show that your assumptions are baseless. Turbine is moving to the Hybrid model because it works better than a straight P2P model for bringing in revenue. When DDO switched revenue went up over 500% just by adding convenience items into the store. They have no need to add items in that the VIP's are required to buy as they are already getting more from paying subs than they will ever get from the average F2P Premium player. It should also be obvious to most people that their best case scenario is to convert F2P players into VIP's as that gets them the most income over time. The store is designed specifically to entice those players to purchase their way towards VIP or to at least pay enought to come close. It's an ideal way to grab those "on-the-fencer's" that want to play but don't know if it's worth it to pay a monthly sub. Making it F2P just means they get the most access to that pool of players. It removes the barrier of entry.

If you want to keep on believing that VIPs will be getting access to everything in the game for their $15 a month, by all means, keep believing it.  I just hope this thread is still around when reality sets in.  This reminds me of the die-hards over on the LotRo boards that swore up and down that the game would never go f2p.

Again the example of DDO's conversion is ample proof that it will be exactly the case.

I'm a lifetimer, and was an active player and poster over there back around the time frame when DDO went f2p.  I and a few others started several threads that said it was a matter of time before LotRo followed suit.  The Turbine fanbots flamed away, and eventually the threads were locked (and I guess deleted, as I went back through my old post history when Turbine made the big announcement, just to have a laugh, and they weren't there).

Troll threads getting locked and deleted? That almost never happens in any game ever.

The point is, Turbine's looking to make as much money as possible (and good for them, btw).  Kidding yourself that things are going to be the same relative to the sub fee and the content it provides access to just makes you look a little bit silly. 

If Turbine is looking to make as much money as possible driving away your regular paying customers needlessly is not the way to go. Ripping off monthly subs just does not make any sense business wise.

 

Oh and calm/logical, I can't forget that, lol.

Originally posted by Philby

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by Philby

I believe a "knee jerk reaction" is one made immediately without much thought. My sub to LOTRO doesnt end for another month or so as I sub, or did sub, for the 3 month period at a time. So how would the psuedo head shrinkers describe my quitting the game after the my sub runs out? Ive stated on the NOOOOOOOOO thread my thoughts on the subject and must say there are some of us that do not see the rosy picture that Tubine is painting to be quite realistic.

Your reaction is the definite prototype of the knee-jerk reaction. You obviously don't have the faintest idea about the fact that the F2P option will only be an extended trial, whereas for those who continue their subscription, nothing will change with the exception of receiving extra amounts of bonus points of your're a founder or a lifer.

DB

My reaction time must be slower than most as it will take me another few weeks for my knee jerk to kick in.  Give it some thought and look to see how things gradually implemented over time are more acceptable to people and your knee may start to twitch a bit as well.  It will be interesting to see how great this game is a year, if WB sees enough profit to keeping it going another year. Thing is I dont think the game was in as much trouble as some believe but the damage is done and there is no going back so its sink or swim for LOTRO now.

Regardless of whether it kicks in 3 months down the road or 3 days, you still made your decision to quit based on speculation and lack of concrete evidence that this change will in fact ruin the game. You are not waiting to see what effect if any this will actually have on the game itself, if any. From the sounds of it you are also basing your decision on a lot of mis-information that is floating around about what is going to happen to current subs when they switch over to F2P.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

I do realize that we're not really "buying" anything.  I'm making the difference between content purchases (SoA, MoM, and AdPack/Mirkwood) and renting access to their servers for the last 3 years via subscription.  I make the differentiation because that seem to be how Turbine is dividing out content to be purchased and access as a VIP.

They are honoring past purchases of content packs (SoA, MoM, Mirkwood, AdPack), but they are removing some features already purchased and allowing the player to re-purchase them.  If they had just removed those and only allowed them for VIPs then I would understand.  But they are blurring the lines between the two to maximize their revenue return.  In the amorphous and subjective world of greed and milking your customers I'm saying they're crossing that line.

It's not necessarily a deal breaker for me, but I'll certainly call it like it is.  The problem with trying to sort these things out or make value judgements in black & white is that we live in a gray world.  I can certainly see the issue from two sides.

Um, what exactly are they removing from VIP's that they had before in F2P. They have explicitly said that all VIP's keep what they have, plus they get the base cosmetic item bank and the 500 monthly points for free.

Originally posted by crockopoopoo

Originally posted by Vato26

MMORPG's change.  If you don't like it, you are in the wrong genre of gaming.  And, despite your and the anti-F2P and anti-Turbine crowds' incessant use of the coin phrase "F2P", LoTRO's new model is a hybrid version.  The subscription portion of the model will be very much there and be very much unchanged.

So, in the first part of that paragraph, you acknowledge that MMORPGs change.  At its conclusion, you state that the sub model (the crux of this entire debate) is going to remain unchanged (which is incorrect btw, since what you get for the sub price will change).

What exaclty is changing between what you get for the sub price now and what you get under F2P? Please enlighten us as to what we are loosing exactly.

Which is it?

Do you really think that Turbine, over time, isn't going to add things into the cash shop that can only be purchased in the cash shop?  Maybe they've already stated that they will, I don't know because I don't really care about or keep up with LotrO.  Regardless, at some point it will happen, and the people that  pay for a sub now (that guarantees them access to all content) will have to pay a sub plus something extra to get all the content.  That's what most anti-F2P people are irritated about, and rightly so. 

If DDO is any indicator the only thing that they will add that isn't available through normal play is merely longer lasting versions of the items that are available ingame. i.e. longer lasting hope tokens etc.

 

The fact that you contradicted yourself in the space of a couple of sentences illustrates what is wrong with the sheeple who defend F2P better than any anti-F2P post ever could.  It's so easy for these companies to get you guys on board with all these changes.  I don't blame them for striking while the iron is hot.  It's just too bad for the rest of us who recognized what an unbeatable value the old flat-rate payment model was. 

He was talking about gameplay not subscription models. It's funny it seems that everyone who is so against this move has absolutely no knowledge of how it's actually going to work. Willfull ignorance FTL.

 

Change, progress, and naivete though, woo!  Onward!

Originally posted by fistorm

     I left after mirkwood, at about lvl 62,  loved the buddy npc play, but when I got to mirkwood I really dint get into it, it seemed a bit dull,  knowing the zone was going to be small,  I kind of gave up.  I also did not like how they were anti crafting on alts under 60 with the new expansion.  I'm sure theres more reasons then just that, but, how is mirkwood,  Should they have kept the 60 level cap and kept mines of moria part of the max cap level or what?

 Well mirkwood is anything but small and there's a bajillion quests to do so I don't know where you heard it was small. Maybe you haven't unlocked the rest of mirkwood yet. In order to do so you need to progress in one of the epic quests and once you've finished that the rest of mirkwood opens up. Leaving Moria as the final area would be a huge mistake as most people don't really like moria. Sure it's fun for awhile but all the running around and close mob placement becomes tedious after the 1000th time through it. When I first exited into lothlorien after spending so much time in moria it was like a breath of fresh air.

The way I read it was that if you were previously a VIP before the switch you would not lose access to any of your bags, same with gold limit and a bunch of other stuff too.

Originally posted by Rocketeer

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Rocketeer

Why shouldnt it work? Seems pretty much how DDO got their 500% revenue increase, just look at the most sales category on their store, its mostly consumeables. Makes sense that the consumeables sell the best, cause you have to buy them again and again.

 

I do not disagree with this, not entirely, in fact that is largely why I think the model is 'dangerous'.  They make their money of these cash shop items, even if just from a small subset of the overall players.  However, over time there is great incentive to make them more and more necessary (i.e. to make grinds longer and other such things harder without said cash shop items).  So you start day one with a system that is similar (at least in some ways) for subscribers to the old model (excepting the changes that result from a cash shop and F2P being worked in) but over time the pressure takes you further and further from that point and the sub becomes more and more diminished as the cash shop is more and more emphasized.  T

 

To the point of expansions being extras subscribers under the current model have to pay extra for that is true but you can bet your last buck that buying an expansion in a box or digital download will be a far greater value than buying all its little pieces carved up and sold individually through the cash shop.  Heck, most MMOs outside a rare few include expansions with the initial box price once it has been out a couple months or more, currently LotRO is $29.99 for the original game, both expansions (MoM and SoM), and 30 days play - that is value you will never see come F2P.

 

So however you slice it, I just think this is a move about one thing more for the same or lots more from a few new eyes drawn  in by the F2P.  And over time, subscribers can rest assured they will never get the value they got under the current model and gameplay will, at least in part (and probably large part) be steered not by what is best for players and the game but what is best for generating cash shop sales.

Personally i just dont see the incentive to buy loot or XP potions. If you level so slow its annoying you a 20 or even 30% boost wont change that, and players just wildly diverge on what they think is acceptable leveling speed. Loot isnt an option for me either, 95% of what you is not useful to your class anyway, atleast thats my take. You sell it and use the money to buy stuff you actually want.

Let me help you out with a couple arguments what will really annoy F2P players:

1. You cant make auctions, only bid and buy. I dont know about you, but i make alteast 70% of my cash selling crafting resources or items on the AH.

2. You cant get a horse or big house because its above your max gold limit.

3. Without selling stuff on the AH and no questrewards you wont have the cash to properly keep your craft onlevel for anything but farmer and cook, so you cant even craft items for yourself.

4. So you dont craft, what do you do if all your bags are full and your at the goldcap? Have fun destroying valuable stuff.

 

Those are the big problems i see, and the reason i will go premium and spend some cash. I dont much care about the quests, maybe ill buy one or two strategically placed regions like lonelands and angmar, once i get sick of those ill probably buy others for my twinks, but that might be quite some time down the road.

The way I understand it you can continue to earn gold and it will be stored for you, but you will only have access to a maximum of 2 GP at any time for purchases, so no deluxe houses or horses unless you are premium player. it's just further incentive for someone who's on the fence to go premium.