Originally posted by Alindale

I think it took place at one of the fan festivals.  SOE/SWG devs were on a Q&A panel with the fans.  Some way or another, players expressed how much fun it was chatting with each other at a Campsite out in the middle of nowhere, resting in between bouts of serious PvE mayhem (*).  When the devs heard this, one of the devs was outwardly shocked and replied, "You were talking around a campfire... and it was fun?"

Why yes, yes it really was fun.  The game mechanics and community made it fun.

The OLD SWG really brought out a sense of community among the players.  No character could do everything, much less do them in an acceptable form of success.  Everyone was needed.  Combat types, Entertainers, Crafters, Resource Gatherers, etc.

(*) = I'll give a brief example of how these "campfire" get-togethers went.  You'd get in a PUG, back in a time when such groups didn't have a bad name.  Matter of fact, almost all my grouping in the old SWG were with PUGs.  Anyways, you'd group up for a variety of reasons, but for this, Enranged Rancor Hunting Missioins on Dathomir.  Everyone would get these missions, then you'd venture out as a group, and handle these missions 1 by 1.  Once everyone's missions were done, you'd go back to the remote starport for more of them.  Do them again.  You'd do this so many times that the characters get worn down, and the actual players need to rest.  Usually at least 1 player in the group has enough Scout ability to setup a campsite, usually nothing too fancy.  Everyone would gather around the fire, the Entertainer in the group would dance or play an instrument.  Some would take a small break.  Everyone BS's with each other for a bit, but it wasn't surprising if the talk went on for a long time until someone remembers that we were supposed to be hunting lol

That was the atmosphere of the game.  It was the same atmosphere that had boatloads of players in the Pre-CU/NGE days in the Cantinas, Medical Centers, etc.  In-game Cantinas packed like real-life, successful nightclubs.  You had actual players visiting and checking out their favorite Entertainers (actual players), meeting up buddies there and all that.

This was the atmosphere that SOE failed to even see, even after being told that, yes, we did like talking to each other at Cantinas... and around the Campfires.

While I never really played SWG, I'd like to put in that that kind of thing is what I really liked about the early days of EQ, and about LOTRO recently (although I don't play LOTRO anymore for RL reasons).

In EQ2, you'd spend so long camping mobs, that you'd just fill the time with yakking. So we had the equivalent of the campfire sessions you're talking about forced upon us by the game. Interestingly, I remember that many times, we'd let the spawn go by if we were sufficiently into our conversation. It was as if playing the game was less fun than just being in game and hanging out.

In LOTRO recently, for the first time in a long time I saw people actually gathering together just to see each other and hang out. No raiding, no xps, just getting together to mess around and yak about everything and nothing. I expected my first guild party to be lame - little groups of friends all cliquing together, the usual e-peen jerking, and an early breakup by the "cool people" to go xp. Instead, we had all-inclusive events, mock fights, musicians and minstrels playing, people dancing to the music, and general screwing around was pretty much mandatory. I officially had a great time, and nobody got a lick of XPs during it lol.

Back on topic, I have a theory that working for SOE imposes some sort of mental disability on devs that targets the "fun perception" section of the brain. I can't otherwise explain how many games SOE has bought that were reasonably fun or had fun elements, but now are not fun to play due entirely to SOE devs' involvement. 

Hmm, not a player, but I was considering it because of the very active development.

I'm just curious if there's any thoughts about speeding up the attack timers and making NPC's move around a bit during a fight. The game looks like it's got real potential, but it looks like the same old slow-motion "set-piece" fights, and that's a sub-killer for me.

For comparison, a game like the old Jedi Knight Academy had actually "dumb" mobs, but they were programmed to respond to your movement with their own movement and attacks, which made YOU respond with movement and attacks, which made THEM respond, etc. So combat was really exciting and tense, and made for some great movies besides :D.

While I'm not saying that CoH should put in the kind of moves the Jedi could do (although that would be an instant sub for me) just making the enemies move around a bit and speeding up the attacks would make it feel a lot less like "my dad's MMO" lol. I'd seriously consider subbing if the fights were more better.

Just wanted to put that in for consideration. Happy Heroing, whatever happens :)

Originally posted by Scalebane

Fact is we don't know how many players they have, we don't really know how many left SWG, its all speculation.  But if they are making money then they aren't going anywhere anytime soon, the SWG thing happened like what? 3yrs ago? if it hurt that bad you would think they would have shutdown back then.

Yes what they did was wrong and if people feel the need to verbally abuse Smed cool, but there are alot of new devs working for them just trying to make the games there better, they don't deserve the hate they get from people, the way Smed treated players was wrong, but players treating new devs and whoever else working there the same way makes you equally as bad as them.

Sadly, "new devs" doesn't equal "better games".Those new devs are working in the same situation that the OLD devs worked in, and that's one that has been producing crap results for the life of the company. So it's not likely that new devs will change anything for the better.

Example- I was playing Planetside when the "new devs" rolled in. First question I asked was "what's their experience"? The lead dev's experience for working on a dynamic-combat, large-battle-oriented First Person Shooter MMO includes (drum roll please) SWG. EQ2. And some experience playing Unreal Tournament and Quake Wars to justify their FPS "experience". The other dev's experience was never revealed.

Their plans? To make the game better. Their first answers? Roll all the half-developed stuff that was sitting on shelves because the former devs judged that it would unbalance the game. Why? IMHO because that looks like they're Doing Something with the game, and that's always really good for job security.

The result? An even worse game of course. People farming for hours on end in invisible hover aircraft that can take 3 hits from a main battle tank. 3 freaking dead on hits and it still flies. Riiigghht. People farming for hours on end in a monster gunship aircraft that spells ultimate ownage - want to have fun while ruining the fun for dozens of other people? Get a pilot, load up 5 other people on the guns, and go be invincible. I laid two full clips of anti-vehicle rounds into one (enough to just about kill one of the heavy walking tank-mechs- formerly the toughest things in the game). I didn't get that one down to half-armor. Wtf. And they wonder why the pops fell to crud after that- who wants to be bunny-farmed by a side that's been handed a near-invulnerable weapon of mass destruction?

There's plenty more, but let's skip to now. The newest plans to "improve the game" include putting "Battle Levels" into it, because they don't have the pops to play the game like it was designed (gee I wonder why). Putting INSTANCED LEVELS Into the only FPSMMO out there that was designed as a fight for total world domination against two other sides, with the map changing dynamically as bases and towers are won and lost.

The game's only uniqueness and the real draw for coop plan was the effect your and your outfit's play had on the world in real time. And they are going to try to change it to compete with all of the other level-based FPS games out there - ones that don't cost 15 bucks a month to play, have newer engines, awesome graphics, and a fresh, engaged playerbase with highly active clans/guilds/outfits/whatever. 

Riiiiggghhht.Let me know how that goes. Oh wait- don't bother lol, I already have COD4 and ET-QW, so I can have level-based fights all day long without paying anyone a monthly fee.

/rant off, sorry I got back into wasting my time on SOE's cluelessness. Good luck if you decide to keep giving them money, but I wish you wouldn't. The faster they're out of the market, the faster a real game company can pick up the IP and make the games fun again.

Originally posted by StarDagger

I think we are all agreed that SWG needs to be buried and a REAL Star Wars MMO erected in its place.

SOE should be told "This is not the MMO we were looking for" and fired, and banned from having anything to do with future LA products.

Yours in Problem Solving Plasma,

Star*Dagger

Yep, that's why I don't play any SOE games anymore. I honestly want them to fail and be driven out of the business. They won't of course, since all of the "leadership" in SOE will say and do anything to avoid losing their jobs (see Smed's recent interview where he claims they're really successful lol).

But if SOE did shut down those games, it might happen that they are bought up by a company that understands that making the game a success for the players is how you make the game a success for your business. That's my hope anyways, and it's right up there with Tribes 2 MMO :D

Originally posted by singsofdeath  

Originally posted by Soupgoblin

Originally posted by Daffid011

Star Wars Galaxies will not be shut down until a new Star Wars MMO is announced and possibly launched.

 

Regardless of whos son plays it or not.  It would be bad publicity to have a Star Wars MMO shut down shortly before a new one is unvieled or released.  Doing so would just dredge up all that old drama and negativity just before a major ad campaign for a new title. 

My guess is SWG will quietly announce a sunsetting date with the excuse that populations have "finally" fallen to low to support due to the new title or perhaps Lucas Arts will just suffocate the title with creative restrictions to the point SOE will opt out of the contract.

 

Again there is nothing to be gained for SOE or Lucas Arts by shutting down SWG, except a whole mess of negative advertising.

 

A new SW MMO will not be announced till the company has the IP, and from earlier post it would seem the IP is an exclusive thing. Who would spend money to design and code a whole MMO if they don't have the IP in their hands? and if it is in Bioware's hands, it won't be in SOE's hands...

Therefore I believe that SOE will just keep letting you pay your monthly fees (plus the extra from the cards), and when the time comes, drop the players like a rock

these games are a business, and corporations have no heart, they don't care when you cry. They are trying to make money, and KOTOR3 will not be started until bioware knows that the IP is in their possesion, and for that to happen, SOE has to lose the IP....

I know it hurts, but it is all for the best, I think most of us trust Bioware more than we trust SOE.

 

Just wanted to put a bit perspective on this and add a little food for thought.

3) Fact = LucasArts have recently registered new trademarks. Threads and posts about this are readily available here. The one that seems most interesting in this whole discussion is "Star Wars: The Old Republic". These Trademarks have been registered for entertainment software as far as I am aware (please correct me if I am wrong).

Currently, I'm thinking there is a good 90% Chance that the BioWare MMO, due out next year (theoretically, logically and realistically, I would say 2010), is indeed Star Wars: The Old Republic. 

But it is all just speculation at this point.

Ooo. Good point - there are two series of Star Wars movies, taking place in two different times. This might be a line that lawyers can draw to say that they are different IPs, since you have different looks for pretty much everything.

Question, didn't SOE get the IP before Jar-Jar Wars came out?

Yup- "I'm not going to tell you I suck at my job, so we have been, are and always will be successful because of my leadership". Blarg.

I played EQ for years and watched them treat players like sheep to be sheared while nerfing the uniqueness of each character until you were forced into a lockstep party formation.

Then I played EQ2 for years and watched them do even more blatant sheep-shearing and individuality-crushing, not to mention totally insulting idiocies ("Gigglegibber goblins" - omfg) that made us all out as having the mentality of 11-year-old girls.

Along the way I played Planetside for years and watched them just ignore it until it was almost dead, then appoint devs that just threw anything handy into the game to say they "updated the gameplay", and now they're trying to turn it into UT or something - like that doesn't both kill the only uniqueness the game has, plus put an oooollldd game into the arena against the newest and best like COD4. Yah, good luck with that strategy SOE.

The only conclusion I can reach is that they are exactly what they say they are - a corporation that buys properties and makes money off of them. And that's it. They are not a game company, which is about making fun happen for people in exchange for money.

In their minds, having us buy tickets, then line up neatly and wait until they choose to dispense fun is a perfect business.

In my mind, the only reason to play a virtual character in a virtual world is to experience having the opportunity to choose my own fun, whenever and wherever I want. My particular choices for fun are challenges that require me to explore, discover, overcome obstacles and difficulties that tax both my character and me, and be rewarded for my success.

SOE has proven 3x over that no matter who they assign, they are just the wrong company to be in charge of games. They should get out of the business and go do real estate or something instead, and leave entertainment to people who understand what their customers want.

Originally posted by ste2000

Good news!!!!

Now we are waiting for the resignation of John Smedley from SoE.....mhhhh that would take a miracle though

I am eagerly awaiting the incredibly-long-delayed "Smed Special" game (the one about playing a secret agent). Because I fully expect it to fail magnificently, hopefully finally forcing Smeds to go away.

If Smed does resign, I *might* consider someday giving SOE some of my money again. But they'd have to roll back years worth of bad changes to the games I once played, and I just don't think they will. Too bad, as I really liked old-school Planetside, and I had fun in EQ1 and EQ2 for years. I'd like to revisit them, but omg are they full of drek now :(

Originally posted by Boneserino

Originally posted by daveains

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by ryman

Originally posted by Kulthos

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.

 

No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.

 

 

EVE is for masochists.  I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B.  If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche. 

 

Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...

 

EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.

Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.

If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.

 

Oh sure .... Like thats ever going to happen.   

C'mon people, get real here.  If there is PvP, then there is going to be ganking.  The PvP'ers admit it. Why can't you?  Thats the whole problem.  You expect a fair fight against a real person?  Give your head a shake.  It's all about having an advantage on the other guy.  The bigger the better.   Anybody looking for a fair fight in PvP is just delusional IMO.

Unfortunately, that shows how little you know about game design. PvP game balance isn't about equality, it's about unequal advantages for BOTH sides. That's how you get tension and the opportunity to use skill into the fight, without which there'd be no point to playing at all.

Oh and I'm a PvP'er, and I don't "admit there'll be ganking", because real PvP'rs don't gank - that's just taking advantage of poor game balance to make yourself feel like a winner, when in reality, there wasn't a real chance of losing. You're cheating yourself like that, not to mention just being a general @ss to people.

Real PvP'ers let the helpless noobs wander on by, or you even help them get going, so that someday they can present you with a real fight, with real gains for the victor, instead of a moment of futile resistance, a piece of rusty loot and some pocket lint lol.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by ryman

Originally posted by Kulthos

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.

 

No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.

 

 

EVE is for masochists.  I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B.  If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche. 

 

Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...

 

EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.

Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.

If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.

Originally posted by Sweeet

I understand that this game is just a cash cow and that the developers are trying to make as much money as they can. If people want a toned down server I say give it to them. But this game won't survive unless it has a dedicated PvP server or at least dedicated PvP areas. This is a MMO set in space, a massively diverse area that will be populated by people and A.I. alike. The A.I. don't have a choice to opt out of PvP, why should another player going about his/her business?

I want to immerse myself in a game that makes me feel like I'm in space. A game that makes me feel like there could be real consequences to my actions/other peoples actions. I want it to feel as realistic as it can possibly be.

Its this very sort of realism that has kept EvE going for as long as it has. Without it, it would be just another cookie cutter space-based RPG.

The only tip the developers should be taking from WoW is the difference in realm types. If they want to know what makes a space genre MMO survive, they should look at EvE and start building their great gameplay upon that.

Seriously, if EvE had the kind of gameplay I experienced at Connect, it would have wiped the floor a long time ago.

 

Actually, the biggest draw to MMO's isn't PvP. It's COOP play. You know, like when you play with friends, except  you don't try to kill each other, you try to kill something else together.

You can do that with PvE play, just look at all of the guilds in PvE games. Just because WoW decided to support limited PvP doesn't mean that's what's responsible for their success.

If anything, it's the opposite- some level 20 comes in and starts killing people who are just starting the game and can't possibly fight back, well he might be thinking he's all cool, but the rest of us think he's an ass, and Blizzard is an ass to let that happen lol. I had that happen in EQ1 when I first tried PvP- some asshat level 5 was standing at the spawn spot, killing everyone who logged in in 1 hit and looting their 2 copper pieces omg. I tried 4 times to get in and get started, finally evading him long enough to hide (racial ability). Then I realized how stupid the EQ devs were to let that happen and just logged out and deleted the char.

Oh bout Eve- imnsho, it's the fact that it's the only real space game in town that brings people in, and all of the alt accounts sucking up that "free training" (on paid accounts lol) that keeps CCP alive at all. More than half of my old corp had at least 1 paid alt account (I started one too until I came to my senses lol). And all of teh "cool people" had three alts so they could be all godlike lol.

I'd guess without alts, their revenue would be half, and they'd be out of business.

And there you have it folks. Nobody who likes Eve can possibly have an objective opinion- anything negative is "you suck, go play WoW". You chumps think I didn't pay long enough to learn what was up? Wrong-o, I gave it way longer than I should have, playing empire to 0.0 with a good corp.

My points stand- you will never be the equal of anyone who joined the game prior to you, even if they are the worst players in the world, and you will pay for 6 months to find that out the hard way.

That's why Eve attracts every lowlife looking for easy ways to prove how much they can pwn - the game developers SELL them the way to dominate anyone who gets into game later than they do. It's called "the training system".

Here's a question for all of you who claim that Eve offers "freedom".

You see some scumbag just fouling the channels with vile crap. You see them camping .4 gates with the range exploit to kill noobs just sticking their nose in to see what mildly-lowsec space looks like. You see them laughing in chat at how great they are, and warp-jamming victims in their pods so they can laugh at them for awhile before finally killing them.

What do you, a player with the freedom of Eve, do about this if you are the most skillful player that has ever logged in, but don't have enough character skills to fly a competitive ship?

NOTHING about it, because SKILL IS NOT A PART OF EVE COMBAT.  Only the character skills you paid for over time (which determine what ship you can have) matter to the outcome.

Oh, and as regards new mission pay - your first missions are for a few thousand each. Your next Level 1 missions get going into the 100k range, but oops! You have to pay 5, 10, 50, or 100k for each new skill book to train all those skills - and there are a sh8load to learn. And ships start to cost real money too- 3-4m for the cheapest cruiser.

So if you don't know Eve, let this be a lesson. It took me 6 months to learn mine.

Best of luck to the OP, and let the flames burn- I'm not watching this thread anymore.

Originally posted by Kyleran

My first go at 0.0 was when I had about 4M SP's, the next time I was around 15M or so, next time I'll probably be near 25M SP's, and have a wide variety of roles I can fill.

Right now I am able to jam a ship into helplessness, fly at speeds so fast I can't be hit, shoot guns for incredible distances that few can match, and am training to fly Dreadnaughts, one of the Capital ships in the game.  

And that, unfortunately, is why I will not play Eve again. It's not a level playing field at all. If you can do all those things because you, as a player, demonstrated the skill to do them in game, thereby upping your character's skills, that's fine. Because that means, if I put in the effort and have the skills, *I* can do it too. If I fail, it's my own fault.

But you didn't put in effort and skills, because you weren't allowed to by CCP. You just paid for your character's skills to increase steadily over time. Not hating you, hating the game, just to be clear. And everyone thinking of trying the game needs to hear these words.

Eve's "pay for training" model means that you will pay, and pay, and pay, and never ever be able to PLAY at the level of someone who got into game before you. It's a beautiful sucker play- "Hey, free training with your subscription!". You feel like you're getting something for free that you have to work for in other games.

Until you find out that their training system is omgwthicbi ridiculous. It is the most mindbogglyingly overcomplicated anal-retentive training system ever created by the minds of people. My proof? Just look at the Eve training programs created by other people to penetrate the Borg-like bureaucracy of the system, so that you could create a coherent training schedule to reach your goal in-game. Because you sure as H E double-hockey-sticks weren't going to figure it out on your own.

So what you say? It's "free" right, so who cares if you waste some time? Try out one of those training programs and see just how long you will have to pay (and wait!) for your free training before you can play anywhere NEAR the level required for combat. It's like SIX MONTHS from the time you get into game. Run the test. Your ship will need to be a T2 ship, and you will need to be skilled at T2 weapons for that ship, not to mention the basic navigation, engine, and energy skills, PLUS anything special you want to do like jamming. Oh and you'll need like 20-30 million to buy the ship and weaps. You start the game running missions for a couple thousand creds each lol.

By which time, of course, everyone else is also six months ahead on their training. Whether they even bothered to play or not, because as long as you pay and click on new skills to train, your character learns.

(*please, no "big lie" bullcrap from people about being able to "have fun being a tackler in a T1 frigate right from the start". That's a ticket to being assigned to hang around absolutely uselessly by a gate while you wait for someone to jump in, which in no way qualifies as "fun", and will cripple your char's ability to advance right from the start. If you are not in a T2 ship, you are a floating bag of loot waiting to go pop.)

My personal theory is that this is how CCP justified their financial model to their investors - "See Mr. Moneybags? Right here on the spreadsheet is how long it will take ANY character to be able to fly a cruiser. We know this because of our marvelously unique training system will not allow them to reach it any faster, no matter how skillful a player they are or how hard they try. And we estimate 80% of people will keep paying us until they can fly a cruiser, so that's where our financial planning figures come from. So we can pay you back your 10 million dollars because we will hold back every player long enough to make them pay for it. Can we have the check now?".

So sorry to say, but you need to know this about Eve. Underneath everything else everyone has said is this one simple fact- no matter how good a player you are or how hard you try, you will always be less of a player than some retarded jerk filling the channels with hate-filled obscenities, who just happens to have been paying CCP longer than you.

Good luck whatever you decide!

Originally posted by HeavySigh

Originally posted by Drakaran

"well HeavySigh, I got real curious with eq2i.com DID say about Fury if it wasn't a priest class since I have a Fury character in my stable.

Quote:

"A Fury is one of the Cleric types."

Incorrect.  Use the Wiki link in the article; do some research; don't mislead the readers.

Seriously, please don't just throw quotes at the readers without checking if they are in any way accurate.

In eq2i.com under Classes/Priest/Fury it says this:

"Those who seek to harness the feral and destructive forces of nature will find the Fury to be a suitable profession. Although the Fury conjures his power from nature?s ferocity and is a druid of predation and vengeance, he can play a vital support role in the party by providing magical healing and protection. The Fury can enhance his allies' physical attributes and abilities in combat, and bring down destructive forces upon his enemies." [bolded portion to emphasize Fury's role in groups]

Though that's not entirely clearly a cleric type, that's what a Fury is (even if some people would like to believe they are DPS LOL).  In fact, this is becoming a problem in some group situations that the players built their Fury for DPS instead of heals because they didn't recognize that a Fury is a healer, and in a group would be expected to HEAL and not DPS."

 

I never said a Fury wasn't a priest. I indicated that it wasn't a cleric.  Pop back to the EQ2i page for the Fury and read what it says against "Type" (in the class information box).  Now repeat the process on the Templar page in EQ2i.  Understand now?

 

Just one more post. I did have some fun with my Fury, but that's because I could use Charm, and because I can play a DOT type (my main in EQ1 was a druid with Charm stats cranked up- way fun compared to the regular way to play one :). Then they nerfed the crap out of the class, and guess what- Furys are now just healers and buffers, with some moderate nukage thrown in. They're only valuable because their heals over time keep the tank's health up enough so a real healer (templar or inquisitor) doesn't lose them to a sudden rain of hits.

So eventually, no matter what you find fun to play, you will be forced into SOE's little "party line" deal where you must have the tank, must have the healers, and must have the DPS. If you don't fit that mold, say for reasons of character development or god-forbid, role playing lol, you are just an unneeded extra. And as the other guy said, now you can actually be a DETRIMENT to a group. That's how dumb SOE's games have gotten - you don't play what is easy for THEM, you will still be allowed to pay to log in, but you might not be allowed to PLAY lol.

My main class was an Illusionist, so I know all about being an amazingly powerful class (if played with skill) that is still considered superfluous until the group has a tank, healer and DPS. SOE's "balance" for this? Make some raid zones drain power so you have to let an Illusionist join your group if you want to keep your power up. Which is like only being invited to a party because you can pass for 18 and buy beer fpr your "friends". Double sigh ....

Originally posted by ohreally

it's not as simple as don't play it if you don't like it. SOE is using this new model to develop all of their MMO games. Easy, bland and boring..and the reason they are doing it is because their players let them. They make promises the don't intend to keep, release the game that has serious potential, and instead of developing the potential they trivialize every aspect of it. In the mean time people have poured hours into character development and don't want to feel cheated of their time, so they continue to try to play the game, even though the game isn't what is used to be, and is not living up to promises made by the developer...and BAM.... instant captive audience...the ONLY way to show SOE that their "vision" isn't working is to walk away. It's a game, there is more than one, go play another if you must play MMOs. If you can pull yourself away from the keyboard, go outside, see a movie, a ball game, go to the beach...go ANYWHERE....collect rocks, collect stamps, it certainly can't be any less boring that killing the same skeleton/gnoll/orc models for 80 levels....

QFT. After  years of having a blast in the early days of MMO's (including Everquest for 4 years), I found that each new "improvement" to MMO's just got less fun. There was less exploration, less meaning in your quests, less character development, just ... less of what makes an MMO a game. And it's gotten worse and worse, until now it's just incredibly disappointing to even see.

The reason wasn't that it can't be done- all the way back to Daggerfall, AI opponents were fighting like it was a real fight (and so were you), NPC's were hailing you as a friend, offering you work, brushing you off curtly, or being outright hostile to you according to what their race/class/town thought of your race/class/town/accomplishments, quests were anywhere from simple jobs for a little money to complex, convoluted stories that challenged you to figure out motivations, decipher puzzles, fight when necessary, and think all the time. 

What do we have now after almost 2 decades of "improvement"? Sparkly killing-parks for kiddies that never grew out of pubescent aggression.  Even LOTRO, my latest play, is now uninstalled- once you get past the first 20 levels, all of the neat, fun, sometimes scary quests they send you on become dumb killing errands. Kill 30 of these for a shiny sword. Kill 20 more of these for new boots. Sigh.....

So, good luck with EQ2. Every new game brings some fun at the start because it's new to you, but after awhile.... After reaching level 74 with my main char, I just absolutely could not force myself to kill one more dumb thing just standing around waiting to be killed. I just couldn't act that mindless and stupid any longer without becoming so in real life, so I had a choice to make.

So now I just play this and that while I wait for some MMO developer to build an online world that actually has a game to it. That's the only reason I come here actually, just to see if it's happened yet.

Best of luck!

Originally posted by lotharr

About graphics and gameplay, doesn't EVE Online have quite good graphics and massive battle at the same time? I've heard of the occasional node crashes, but I've heard of succesful battles in the game, too.

Not to go too far off-topic, but actually, no. You need to make that "constant" node crashes. Guilds were (and still are AFAIK) completely able to crash nodes at will, just by jumping enough ships in.

As far as massive battles, no again. You could get 100 ships at a time in the same place and not have the NODE crash, but the PLAYERS were a completely different story. You get frozen in time, hoping that the weapons you clicked would actually fire before you were dead. It's really pathetic, considering how you thought you'd be all space battle cool and stuff.

Originally posted by javac

Some point to emphasise:

 

1) if you're judging the graphics from youtube without watching the hi-res version, your opinion is pretty worthless.

2) darkfall's graphics are not instanced in any way, it's a seamless world, with no zoning except for dungeons.

3) darkfall's graphics were designed for 100v100 battles at playable framerates.

4) the general standard of Darkfall graphics is very high, they are just let down a bit by *some* poorer quality graphical elements, specifically cannonball explosion effects are pretty ordinary, and some character animations are a bit jerky, eg: dwarves walking down slopes needs tweaking.

5) certain things, like Darkfall's outdoor environments, sky/clouds, and dynamic shadows are absolutely top-notch, not to mention the amazing wind/weather effects on trees & grass moving, eg: aerdian cat video.

6) it's still only a low-resolution video of footage taken on medium settings.

 

 

Just to back up your points, this is from Tasos in the previous dev diary:

"We’re talking about a long 100% in-game pure gameplay trailer with no scripting, no simulation, no post-processing. It’s us play-testing while fraps is running on free cameras and playercams and all the footage was collected and edited. The scenarios for it had to be run as part of our testing and development schedule as they came up." So, this footage is from development and development play testing.

To all who are upset about the quality, let's make this clear. This is what they've collected up while they've been working on the game and testing out the features. So you've got any number of game builds in here, which means you can't tell anything about what the current version looks like or does.

I also note that it looks like low-res captures to keep frames up - FRAPS is hard on the machine while it's recording. I had to go down from 1280x1024 high quality to 800x600 low quality to keep frames playable when I used FRAPS before.

So I'm guessing a buttload of the graphics options are turned off on the recording machines as well.

All of which means, this isn't what the game would really look like if you ran it right now.

Edit: I retract all of the above. On the official website:

"We've released an extensive Darkfall Online gameplay trailer which shows a multitude of Darkfall's unique features in action."

So this is how the game actually looks right now. Beats me how they can say that, when the previous battle video showed a wizard taking a massive chunk out of a warship with a fireball, and here ships take no visible damage, just sink?? weird.

Originally posted by neonaka

I am not going to argue, here go look at a chart of an analysis done in 2004 on the state of the top 10 MMO's of that time period.

 

Numbers will speak for themselves.

WoW UP UP UP and AWAY.....

EvE online slow but steady incline ( due to being the only viable space MMO of the time)

Runescape also had an incline, do not get me started on runescape.

other 7 plummit to earth like meteroites.

 

http://www.mmogchart.com/

 

So you like to research, you go look at the analysis and come back and tell me WoW had no impression on subscriptions of the lesser games. On top of that try to tell me it still isn't affecting games subscription.

 

The solution is very simple for Fantasy based MMO's WoW is it, it has monopolized the MMO market and does not look like it is going to be giving up it's chunk of 9 million subs anytime soon.

Your trying to sit here and say that 9 million new gamers materialized in Nov of 2004 - Present 08 and picked up a copy of wow?? come on are you serious?

I will say that, and back it up. One thing nobody has mentioned, but is the biggest single factor of WoW's success, is that Blizzard was aiming WoW at a much larger market than the existing MMO playerbase. 

WoW was so successful not because it was a better game than the others, but because people could play it on the computer they already had, instead of having to upgrade or buy another computer.  Blizzard's intended market wasn't just the people who had "gaming machines". Their market was anyone with a midrange computer who wanted to try an online game.

At release, WoW could run acceptably on a 32 meg graphics card, because the devs did cartoony, low-polygon-count graphics for the characters. They specifically stated this was the reason for the cartoony graphics- so that many more people could play WoW than could play the competition's games. I remember reading that in a dev chat prior to WoW's release, and thinking "Cool! Then I won't have to upgrade to play it!".

In EQII at release, at the lowest settings, I had to look down at my chars feet when in town in order to even walk around. With a 128MB mid-range graphics card btw. I had to upgrade for 239.00 to a 7900GT before I got playable frame rates, and I never made it past medium quality settings. Ever.

So Blizzard deliberately took full advantage of the huge mistake made over and over again by the "real MMO companies". Their devs were in a BOASTING WAR over how much power it took to play their games, so therefore, the market for existing games was limited to people who would pay the money for a serious gaming machine (and usually, also had the knowledge to know what they needed - so they had only a subset of the potential gaming market).

So Blizzard made WoW the mass-market successor to EQ1. Where EQ1 was the first game to ever let people get together and play in an MMO game, WoW was the game that made it possible for a buttload more people to play an MMO. The other game companies took themselves out of the running for the mass market by letting their devs get crazy about how much unoptimized graphics they could shove into a game.

And Blizzard saw their mistake, went for right for their throats and won the entire war in a single move. While I hate the really dumb way that WoW plays, I have to say Blizzard is a very smart company.

Originally posted by JMadisonIV

 

and in Tabula Rasa general chat, even the mention of Planetside evokes an hour long conversation of wistful remembrances of what PS used to be from many, many players on my server.

I should have been in bed an hour ago, but I couldn't not respond to a post on the PS forums and say something about how PS used to be lol.

Originally posted by Arclan

I'm sure you know, NC have the slowest rate of fire; but do the most damage per hit. TR have the highest rate of fire but do the least damage per hit. VS I guess is in the middle.

Except for the small matter of Tripleshot lol. NC have the most instagib of all the emps with tripleshot, Thunderer and Vanguard. And yes, since the NC are rebels, the original devs did kind of identify with them a little too much lol.

I just don't play because the game is way old, you have to deal with SOE's moronic sub system, and the latest devs just pushed all the stuff lying on the shelves into the game so they could tell their bosses they were Doing Something lol.

It doesn't play at all like the fast, frenetic game I remember from when I started. You could see attacking squadrons of tanks and aircraft rolling around a base, with dozens more people charging across the field from the tower blazing away as they ran, and the defenders rolling vehicles as fast as they could spawn, all turrets firing like crazy, defenders all over the walls....

I miss those days. It was beyond awesome. Now you got constant OS's raining down making everyone afraid to be near anyone else (no more big charges or squadrons of vehicles together), you got flying superpowered aircraft that can own anything around, you got invisible aircraft that can take 3-4 tank rounds before they fall down, everyone wallhumps to killwhore instead of playing to cap, and oh yeah, you still got big overpowered 1 person magic-shielded supertanks clomping around making everyone afraid to come out and fight. I saw one guy in an outfit I joined, he routinely had over 100/1 kill ratio, and I saw his screenshot when he got a 150/1 k/d ratio. That's just bullcrap - 150 people died without a chance to have a fun fight so he could have - fun? - killing them without any risk.

After that, I switched emps, and the last char I played was a dedicated Pounder guy just so I could blow up every BFR I saw lol. Didn't help when they brought out the Galaxy Gunships though, I hit one square on with two full Pounder clips (enough to just about kill a GV BFR) and it had less than 1/2 damage.  So the devs made a BFR with wings and a sh8load of guns. Wow, how much fun must all of the victims be having as they die helpless to fight back. 

Sorry SOE, you may con people who never saw the game when it was really fun into subbing, but it's like a bad joke now.

Aye, the poster you qouted is basing his post off 2 games. MXO was only purchased to help secure the rights to future WB properties (DCU). Vanguard was because Sigil had a somewhat finished game that could have been good but whole mismanaged. SOE bought them out after agreeing to a publishing contract because Sigil was headed down the toilet.
 

As I said before, the only reason for the SOE hate was a few SWG players got burned and felt the need to share thier pain with everyone. When they realized no one really cared, they started in on any game that was mentioned in the same sentance with SOE.

Actually, I have to agree with him- SOE really sucks when it comes to the whole "fun" thing. Which is kind of central to the whole GAME thing in my book lol.

I only played SWG for about an hour before I gave up in shock and horror at the ham-fisted jamming of a fantasy RPG gameplay into the freewheeling, open-ended universe of Star Wars.

However, I played EQ1, EQ2 and Planetside for years and years, so I have experience with 3 of the biggest games SOE has had. IMHO, SOE just messed up each and every one in the most clueless manner possible. For most of those years, playing their games really felt like I was working another job!

It took me years to figure out why playing an SOE game feels like you're grinding your life away in a wage-slave job that fits into an overcomplicated, would-be master plan that you can only see a small piece of.

It's because of one simple, blindingly obvious reason. All SOE Developers are ipso facto wage slaves grinding away at a corporate wage slave job. Therefore, everything they do at work involves fitting  better into an overcomplicated, would-be master plan that they only see a piece of.

That's why everything they want players to do is like having a job in a corporate workgroup - "The Cleric will Heal the Warrior. The Wizard will Nuke the Opponent. The DPS will Do Melee Damage. The Warrior will Taunt the Mob to Keep its Attention. Any Others will do the Menial Labor to Support our Main Team. Go Team Fun." (For the record, I mainly play druids, paladins and enchanters- all hybrids, and therefore, all treated as the Menial Laborers in SOE's rigid little work teams. So I know whereof i speak.)

Would you go to a party where you were told you would be assigned a set little pigeonhole role and have to play it in the name of Having Fun? Not me.

But SOE devs have no options in their game design other than to have players have the same kind of rote-behavior roles in-game that the devs do at work. Then whatever happens, their suitmonkey bosses can tell THEIR bosses that Everything is Going According To The Plan. Their suitmonkey bosses do not understand what the devs are doing, nor do they care about anything but subscription numbers, which only reflect changes well after it's too late.

So players get tired of paying SOE to work an in-game job instead of having fun, subs slide, and SOE just scratches its head and says "Couldn't be OUR fault, because we're giving them the same kind of fun WE have. Must be WoW's item-centric gameplay. Let's put more items in our games to catch up!".

And that's how you screw up the (arguably) biggest science fiction, biggest fantasy, and only real FPS MMO's in the history of gaming. It's not some uber-complicated, larger-than-life reason. It's the simple, down-to-earth fact that SOE devs are assembly-line workers in a Modern Times environment, trying to sell dull, planned-encounter, rote-combat "Fun" to players who wanted the freedom to roam and discover new lands, new friends, new foes, new risks and rewards, and all the other elements that make an Adventure out of a game.

I feel very sorry for them, I really do. But I feel sorrier for all of the people I see who have been trained to expect being told where to stand, what to do, and when to do it in the name of having fun.