All Posts by daveains

Originally posted by Alindale

I think it took place at one of the fan festivals.  SOE/SWG devs were on a Q&A panel with the fans.  Some way or another, players expressed how much fun it was chatting with each other at a Campsite out in the middle of nowhere, resting in between bouts of serious PvE mayhem (*).  When the devs heard this, one of the devs was outwardly shocked and replied, "You were talking around a campfire... and it was fun?"

Why yes, yes it really was fun.  The game mechanics and community made it fun.

The OLD SWG really brought out a sense of community among the players.  No character could do everything, much less do them in an acceptable form of success.  Everyone was needed.  Combat types, Entertainers, Crafters, Resource Gatherers, etc.

(*) = I'll give a brief example of how these "campfire" get-togethers went.  You'd get in a PUG, back in a time when such groups didn't have a bad name.  Matter of fact, almost all my grouping in the old SWG were with PUGs.  Anyways, you'd group up for a variety of reasons, but for this, Enranged Rancor Hunting Missioins on Dathomir.  Everyone would get these missions, then you'd venture out as a group, and handle these missions 1 by 1.  Once everyone's missions were done, you'd go back to the remote starport for more of them.  Do them again.  You'd do this so many times that the characters get worn down, and the actual players need to rest.  Usually at least 1 player in the group has enough Scout ability to setup a campsite, usually nothing too fancy.  Everyone would gather around the fire, the Entertainer in the group would dance or play an instrument.  Some would take a small break.  Everyone BS's with each other for a bit, but it wasn't surprising if the talk went on for a long time until someone remembers that we were supposed to be hunting lol

That was the atmosphere of the game.  It was the same atmosphere that had boatloads of players in the Pre-CU/NGE days in the Cantinas, Medical Centers, etc.  In-game Cantinas packed like real-life, successful nightclubs.  You had actual players visiting and checking out their favorite Entertainers (actual players), meeting up buddies there and all that.

This was the atmosphere that SOE failed to even see, even after being told that, yes, we did like talking to each other at Cantinas... and around the Campfires.

While I never really played SWG, I'd like to put in that that kind of thing is what I really liked about the early days of EQ, and about LOTRO recently (although I don't play LOTRO anymore for RL reasons).

In EQ2, you'd spend so long camping mobs, that you'd just fill the time with yakking. So we had the equivalent of the campfire sessions you're talking about forced upon us by the game. Interestingly, I remember that many times, we'd let the spawn go by if we were sufficiently into our conversation. It was as if playing the game was less fun than just being in game and hanging out.

In LOTRO recently, for the first time in a long time I saw people actually gathering together just to see each other and hang out. No raiding, no xps, just getting together to mess around and yak about everything and nothing. I expected my first guild party to be lame - little groups of friends all cliquing together, the usual e-peen jerking, and an early breakup by the "cool people" to go xp. Instead, we had all-inclusive events, mock fights, musicians and minstrels playing, people dancing to the music, and general screwing around was pretty much mandatory. I officially had a great time, and nobody got a lick of XPs during it lol.

Back on topic, I have a theory that working for SOE imposes some sort of mental disability on devs that targets the "fun perception" section of the brain. I can't otherwise explain how many games SOE has bought that were reasonably fun or had fun elements, but now are not fun to play due entirely to SOE devs' involvement. 

Hmm, not a player, but I was considering it because of the very active development.

I'm just curious if there's any thoughts about speeding up the attack timers and making NPC's move around a bit during a fight. The game looks like it's got real potential, but it looks like the same old slow-motion "set-piece" fights, and that's a sub-killer for me.

For comparison, a game like the old Jedi Knight Academy had actually "dumb" mobs, but they were programmed to respond to your movement with their own movement and attacks, which made YOU respond with movement and attacks, which made THEM respond, etc. So combat was really exciting and tense, and made for some great movies besides :D.

While I'm not saying that CoH should put in the kind of moves the Jedi could do (although that would be an instant sub for me) just making the enemies move around a bit and speeding up the attacks would make it feel a lot less like "my dad's MMO" lol. I'd seriously consider subbing if the fights were more better.

Just wanted to put that in for consideration. Happy Heroing, whatever happens :)

Originally posted by Scalebane

Fact is we don't know how many players they have, we don't really know how many left SWG, its all speculation.  But if they are making money then they aren't going anywhere anytime soon, the SWG thing happened like what? 3yrs ago? if it hurt that bad you would think they would have shutdown back then.

Yes what they did was wrong and if people feel the need to verbally abuse Smed cool, but there are alot of new devs working for them just trying to make the games there better, they don't deserve the hate they get from people, the way Smed treated players was wrong, but players treating new devs and whoever else working there the same way makes you equally as bad as them.

Sadly, "new devs" doesn't equal "better games".Those new devs are working in the same situation that the OLD devs worked in, and that's one that has been producing crap results for the life of the company. So it's not likely that new devs will change anything for the better.

Example- I was playing Planetside when the "new devs" rolled in. First question I asked was "what's their experience"? The lead dev's experience for working on a dynamic-combat, large-battle-oriented First Person Shooter MMO includes (drum roll please) SWG. EQ2. And some experience playing Unreal Tournament and Quake Wars to justify their FPS "experience". The other dev's experience was never revealed.

Their plans? To make the game better. Their first answers? Roll all the half-developed stuff that was sitting on shelves because the former devs judged that it would unbalance the game. Why? IMHO because that looks like they're Doing Something with the game, and that's always really good for job security.

The result? An even worse game of course. People farming for hours on end in invisible hover aircraft that can take 3 hits from a main battle tank. 3 freaking dead on hits and it still flies. Riiigghht. People farming for hours on end in a monster gunship aircraft that spells ultimate ownage - want to have fun while ruining the fun for dozens of other people? Get a pilot, load up 5 other people on the guns, and go be invincible. I laid two full clips of anti-vehicle rounds into one (enough to just about kill one of the heavy walking tank-mechs- formerly the toughest things in the game). I didn't get that one down to half-armor. Wtf. And they wonder why the pops fell to crud after that- who wants to be bunny-farmed by a side that's been handed a near-invulnerable weapon of mass destruction?

There's plenty more, but let's skip to now. The newest plans to "improve the game" include putting "Battle Levels" into it, because they don't have the pops to play the game like it was designed (gee I wonder why). Putting INSTANCED LEVELS Into the only FPSMMO out there that was designed as a fight for total world domination against two other sides, with the map changing dynamically as bases and towers are won and lost.

The game's only uniqueness and the real draw for coop plan was the effect your and your outfit's play had on the world in real time. And they are going to try to change it to compete with all of the other level-based FPS games out there - ones that don't cost 15 bucks a month to play, have newer engines, awesome graphics, and a fresh, engaged playerbase with highly active clans/guilds/outfits/whatever. 

Riiiiggghhht.Let me know how that goes. Oh wait- don't bother lol, I already have COD4 and ET-QW, so I can have level-based fights all day long without paying anyone a monthly fee.

/rant off, sorry I got back into wasting my time on SOE's cluelessness. Good luck if you decide to keep giving them money, but I wish you wouldn't. The faster they're out of the market, the faster a real game company can pick up the IP and make the games fun again.

Originally posted by StarDagger

I think we are all agreed that SWG needs to be buried and a REAL Star Wars MMO erected in its place.

SOE should be told "This is not the MMO we were looking for" and fired, and banned from having anything to do with future LA products.

Yours in Problem Solving Plasma,

Star*Dagger

Yep, that's why I don't play any SOE games anymore. I honestly want them to fail and be driven out of the business. They won't of course, since all of the "leadership" in SOE will say and do anything to avoid losing their jobs (see Smed's recent interview where he claims they're really successful lol).

But if SOE did shut down those games, it might happen that they are bought up by a company that understands that making the game a success for the players is how you make the game a success for your business. That's my hope anyways, and it's right up there with Tribes 2 MMO :D

Originally posted by singsofdeath  

Originally posted by Soupgoblin

Originally posted by Daffid011

Star Wars Galaxies will not be shut down until a new Star Wars MMO is announced and possibly launched.

 

Regardless of whos son plays it or not.  It would be bad publicity to have a Star Wars MMO shut down shortly before a new one is unvieled or released.  Doing so would just dredge up all that old drama and negativity just before a major ad campaign for a new title. 

My guess is SWG will quietly announce a sunsetting date with the excuse that populations have "finally" fallen to low to support due to the new title or perhaps Lucas Arts will just suffocate the title with creative restrictions to the point SOE will opt out of the contract.

 

Again there is nothing to be gained for SOE or Lucas Arts by shutting down SWG, except a whole mess of negative advertising.

 

A new SW MMO will not be announced till the company has the IP, and from earlier post it would seem the IP is an exclusive thing. Who would spend money to design and code a whole MMO if they don't have the IP in their hands? and if it is in Bioware's hands, it won't be in SOE's hands...

Therefore I believe that SOE will just keep letting you pay your monthly fees (plus the extra from the cards), and when the time comes, drop the players like a rock

these games are a business, and corporations have no heart, they don't care when you cry. They are trying to make money, and KOTOR3 will not be started until bioware knows that the IP is in their possesion, and for that to happen, SOE has to lose the IP....

I know it hurts, but it is all for the best, I think most of us trust Bioware more than we trust SOE.

 

Just wanted to put a bit perspective on this and add a little food for thought.

3) Fact = LucasArts have recently registered new trademarks. Threads and posts about this are readily available here. The one that seems most interesting in this whole discussion is "Star Wars: The Old Republic". These Trademarks have been registered for entertainment software as far as I am aware (please correct me if I am wrong).

Currently, I'm thinking there is a good 90% Chance that the BioWare MMO, due out next year (theoretically, logically and realistically, I would say 2010), is indeed Star Wars: The Old Republic. 

But it is all just speculation at this point.

Ooo. Good point - there are two series of Star Wars movies, taking place in two different times. This might be a line that lawyers can draw to say that they are different IPs, since you have different looks for pretty much everything.

Question, didn't SOE get the IP before Jar-Jar Wars came out?

Yup- "I'm not going to tell you I suck at my job, so we have been, are and always will be successful because of my leadership". Blarg.

I played EQ for years and watched them treat players like sheep to be sheared while nerfing the uniqueness of each character until you were forced into a lockstep party formation.

Then I played EQ2 for years and watched them do even more blatant sheep-shearing and individuality-crushing, not to mention totally insulting idiocies ("Gigglegibber goblins" - omfg) that made us all out as having the mentality of 11-year-old girls.

Along the way I played Planetside for years and watched them just ignore it until it was almost dead, then appoint devs that just threw anything handy into the game to say they "updated the gameplay", and now they're trying to turn it into UT or something - like that doesn't both kill the only uniqueness the game has, plus put an oooollldd game into the arena against the newest and best like COD4. Yah, good luck with that strategy SOE.

The only conclusion I can reach is that they are exactly what they say they are - a corporation that buys properties and makes money off of them. And that's it. They are not a game company, which is about making fun happen for people in exchange for money.

In their minds, having us buy tickets, then line up neatly and wait until they choose to dispense fun is a perfect business.

In my mind, the only reason to play a virtual character in a virtual world is to experience having the opportunity to choose my own fun, whenever and wherever I want. My particular choices for fun are challenges that require me to explore, discover, overcome obstacles and difficulties that tax both my character and me, and be rewarded for my success.

SOE has proven 3x over that no matter who they assign, they are just the wrong company to be in charge of games. They should get out of the business and go do real estate or something instead, and leave entertainment to people who understand what their customers want.

Originally posted by Boneserino

Originally posted by daveains

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by ryman

Originally posted by Kulthos

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.

 

No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.

 

 

EVE is for masochists.  I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B.  If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche. 

 

Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...

 

EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.

Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.

If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.

 

Oh sure .... Like thats ever going to happen.   

C'mon people, get real here.  If there is PvP, then there is going to be ganking.  The PvP'ers admit it. Why can't you?  Thats the whole problem.  You expect a fair fight against a real person?  Give your head a shake.  It's all about having an advantage on the other guy.  The bigger the better.   Anybody looking for a fair fight in PvP is just delusional IMO.

Unfortunately, that shows how little you know about game design. PvP game balance isn't about equality, it's about unequal advantages for BOTH sides. That's how you get tension and the opportunity to use skill into the fight, without which there'd be no point to playing at all.

Oh and I'm a PvP'er, and I don't "admit there'll be ganking", because real PvP'rs don't gank - that's just taking advantage of poor game balance to make yourself feel like a winner, when in reality, there wasn't a real chance of losing. You're cheating yourself like that, not to mention just being a general @ss to people.

Real PvP'ers let the helpless noobs wander on by, or you even help them get going, so that someday they can present you with a real fight, with real gains for the victor, instead of a moment of futile resistance, a piece of rusty loot and some pocket lint lol.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by ryman

Originally posted by Kulthos

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.

 

No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.

 

 

EVE is for masochists.  I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B.  If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche. 

 

Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...

 

EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.

Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.

If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.

Originally posted by Sweeet

I understand that this game is just a cash cow and that the developers are trying to make as much money as they can. If people want a toned down server I say give it to them. But this game won't survive unless it has a dedicated PvP server or at least dedicated PvP areas. This is a MMO set in space, a massively diverse area that will be populated by people and A.I. alike. The A.I. don't have a choice to opt out of PvP, why should another player going about his/her business?

I want to immerse myself in a game that makes me feel like I'm in space. A game that makes me feel like there could be real consequences to my actions/other peoples actions. I want it to feel as realistic as it can possibly be.

Its this very sort of realism that has kept EvE going for as long as it has. Without it, it would be just another cookie cutter space-based RPG.

The only tip the developers should be taking from WoW is the difference in realm types. If they want to know what makes a space genre MMO survive, they should look at EvE and start building their great gameplay upon that.

Seriously, if EvE had the kind of gameplay I experienced at Connect, it would have wiped the floor a long time ago.

 

Actually, the biggest draw to MMO's isn't PvP. It's COOP play. You know, like when you play with friends, except  you don't try to kill each other, you try to kill something else together.

You can do that with PvE play, just look at all of the guilds in PvE games. Just because WoW decided to support limited PvP doesn't mean that's what's responsible for their success.

If anything, it's the opposite- some level 20 comes in and starts killing people who are just starting the game and can't possibly fight back, well he might be thinking he's all cool, but the rest of us think he's an ass, and Blizzard is an ass to let that happen lol. I had that happen in EQ1 when I first tried PvP- some asshat level 5 was standing at the spawn spot, killing everyone who logged in in 1 hit and looting their 2 copper pieces omg. I tried 4 times to get in and get started, finally evading him long enough to hide (racial ability). Then I realized how stupid the EQ devs were to let that happen and just logged out and deleted the char.

Oh bout Eve- imnsho, it's the fact that it's the only real space game in town that brings people in, and all of the alt accounts sucking up that "free training" (on paid accounts lol) that keeps CCP alive at all. More than half of my old corp had at least 1 paid alt account (I started one too until I came to my senses lol). And all of teh "cool people" had three alts so they could be all godlike lol.

I'd guess without alts, their revenue would be half, and they'd be out of business.

And there you have it folks. Nobody who likes Eve can possibly have an objective opinion- anything negative is "you suck, go play WoW". You chumps think I didn't pay long enough to learn what was up? Wrong-o, I gave it way longer than I should have, playing empire to 0.0 with a good corp.

My points stand- you will never be the equal of anyone who joined the game prior to you, even if they are the worst players in the world, and you will pay for 6 months to find that out the hard way.

That's why Eve attracts every lowlife looking for easy ways to prove how much they can pwn - the game developers SELL them the way to dominate anyone who gets into game later than they do. It's called "the training system".

Here's a question for all of you who claim that Eve offers "freedom".

You see some scumbag just fouling the channels with vile crap. You see them camping .4 gates with the range exploit to kill noobs just sticking their nose in to see what mildly-lowsec space looks like. You see them laughing in chat at how great they are, and warp-jamming victims in their pods so they can laugh at them for awhile before finally killing them.

What do you, a player with the freedom of Eve, do about this if you are the most skillful player that has ever logged in, but don't have enough character skills to fly a competitive ship?

NOTHING about it, because SKILL IS NOT A PART OF EVE COMBAT.  Only the character skills you paid for over time (which determine what ship you can have) matter to the outcome.

Oh, and as regards new mission pay - your first missions are for a few thousand each. Your next Level 1 missions get going into the 100k range, but oops! You have to pay 5, 10, 50, or 100k for each new skill book to train all those skills - and there are a sh8load to learn. And ships start to cost real money too- 3-4m for the cheapest cruiser.

So if you don't know Eve, let this be a lesson. It took me 6 months to learn mine.

Best of luck to the OP, and let the flames burn- I'm not watching this thread anymore.

Originally posted by Kyleran

My first go at 0.0 was when I had about 4M SP's, the next time I was around 15M or so, next time I'll probably be near 25M SP's, and have a wide variety of roles I can fill.

Right now I am able to jam a ship into helplessness, fly at speeds so fast I can't be hit, shoot guns for incredible distances that few can match, and am training to fly Dreadnaughts, one of the Capital ships in the game.  

And that, unfortunately, is why I will not play Eve again. It's not a level playing field at all. If you can do all those things because you, as a player, demonstrated the skill to do them in game, thereby upping your character's skills, that's fine. Because that means, if I put in the effort and have the skills, *I* can do it too. If I fail, it's my own fault.

But you didn't put in effort and skills, because you weren't allowed to by CCP. You just paid for your character's skills to increase steadily over time. Not hating you, hating the game, just to be clear. And everyone thinking of trying the game needs to hear these words.

Eve's "pay for training" model means that you will pay, and pay, and pay, and never ever be able to PLAY at the level of someone who got into game before you. It's a beautiful sucker play- "Hey, free training with your subscription!". You feel like you're getting something for free that you have to work for in other games.

Until you find out that their training system is omgwthicbi ridiculous. It is the most mindbogglyingly overcomplicated anal-retentive training system ever created by the minds of people. My proof? Just look at the Eve training programs created by other people to penetrate the Borg-like bureaucracy of the system, so that you could create a coherent training schedule to reach your goal in-game. Because you sure as H E double-hockey-sticks weren't going to figure it out on your own.

So what you say? It's "free" right, so who cares if you waste some time? Try out one of those training programs and see just how long you will have to pay (and wait!) for your free training before you can play anywhere NEAR the level required for combat. It's like SIX MONTHS from the time you get into game. Run the test. Your ship will need to be a T2 ship, and you will need to be skilled at T2 weapons for that ship, not to mention the basic navigation, engine, and energy skills, PLUS anything special you want to do like jamming. Oh and you'll need like 20-30 million to buy the ship and weaps. You start the game running missions for a couple thousand creds each lol.

By which time, of course, everyone else is also six months ahead on their training. Whether they even bothered to play or not, because as long as you pay and click on new skills to train, your character learns.

(*please, no "big lie" bullcrap from people about being able to "have fun being a tackler in a T1 frigate right from the start". That's a ticket to being assigned to hang around absolutely uselessly by a gate while you wait for someone to jump in, which in no way qualifies as "fun", and will cripple your char's ability to advance right from the start. If you are not in a T2 ship, you are a floating bag of loot waiting to go pop.)

My personal theory is that this is how CCP justified their financial model to their investors - "See Mr. Moneybags? Right here on the spreadsheet is how long it will take ANY character to be able to fly a cruiser. We know this because of our marvelously unique training system will not allow them to reach it any faster, no matter how skillful a player they are or how hard they try. And we estimate 80% of people will keep paying us until they can fly a cruiser, so that's where our financial planning figures come from. So we can pay you back your 10 million dollars because we will hold back every player long enough to make them pay for it. Can we have the check now?".

So sorry to say, but you need to know this about Eve. Underneath everything else everyone has said is this one simple fact- no matter how good a player you are or how hard you try, you will always be less of a player than some retarded jerk filling the channels with hate-filled obscenities, who just happens to have been paying CCP longer than you.

Good luck whatever you decide!