Originally posted by Beatnik59

I don't consider myself a "ganker," although I do enjoy the occasional PvP scrum once in awhile.

Nevertheless, I support "world-PvP," "non-consensual" or "flagged eligible" PvP, and--dare I say--"ganks."

The reason I do is because, even though I--personally--don't play the games to "gank," I realize that this is fun for someone, so who am I to dictate that a person can't enjoy their playstyle?

See, all the arguments that I've heard against the "ganker" playstyle can--and has--been applied to every other playstyle.  Believe me, because I've been in the trenches of the "great playstyle wars" of the early to middle 2000s, where we pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles as "wrong" and "irrelevant." 

See, gankers were the easiest players to dismiss, but they weren't the last players.  And arguments kept on coming out against other playstyles, based on the logic that if a feature isn't something I like, it shouldn't be a feature.

"Nobody likes being forced to PvP, so make it so nobody is forced to PvP."  Result: you marginalize the ganker's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to go to the crafter, so make it so nobody is forced to go to the crafter."  Result: you marginalize the crafter's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to travel, so make it so nobody is forced to travel."  Result: you marginalize the explorer's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to roleplay, so make it so nobody is forced to roleplay."  Result: you marginalize the roleplayer's place in the world.

And it goes on and on and on.  But the sum result of all these requests didn't make systems better.  It removed systems altogether.  It removed all the diverse notions of fun that made this genre unique, that made MMORPG players the most cosmopolitan and diverse community that software entertainment had ever known.

See, I support open-world, non-consensual PvP for the same reasons I support roleplay, crafting, exploration, raids: they all--in their own ways--create a robust and diverse player community.

So, gankers.  I support your PvP.  I'll subject myself to your ganks from time to time.  But, you ought to promise me something.

Promise me you'll act in character sometimes to maintain immersion.  Take immersion seriously, and know you have to do your part to maintain it.  Don't go running off to the buffbot or lootbot to twink your toon out.  Become a citizen of the game, not just of your guild.  Support player crafting, decay, and all of the things that are needed for a robust game for your non-combat players.  Don't ask for travel times or downtime to be nerfed, simply because it's more convenient for you.

We're all in this together.  Because unless we all put up with things we don't necessarily understand or like, we shouldn't be surprised when the developers take away the things we do like.

Excellent post. Everyone should read.

Originally posted by Grochie

So instead of 24 v 1 NPC , you get 24 v 1  poor sucker thats today's sheep.    Most open pvp I've been invovled hasn't been anymore skillful than fighting a npc boss.  Sure there has been moments of quality pvp, most has ethier been me ganking or being ganked.

 

 

This, once again, just isn't true.

I've had cases in FFA PvP where I've been chased by people who out-number me 10-1 in a few games (WoW, GW2, Darkfall, EQ1), and I've lived. Why? Clever use of game mechanics, and instinct.

Just because you are the type of player who throws his arms up and whines on the forums when he's ganked, doesn't mean everyone is.

If you don't like PvP - be a fairy. Problem solved.

You're really reaching to make GW2 seem good.

Yeah, it's better than the majority of crap released over the past 7 years. Personally, I found Rift and GW1 more enjoyable.

Still doesn't compare to EQ, DAoC, or WoW.

Happy?

No thanks.

Besides, skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.

I'd rather have a system like Vanilla or BC WoW, where you have your 9-10 classes, three or four talent trees, and each tree makes you a unique type of character. Also, AA abilities from EQ to further customize your character. Racial abilities with some good utility to further define characters.

Player customization, and diversity among players is more important to me than EQ:N being "Revolutionary". Look at how that turned out for GW2... The game is trash.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

It's not contrary to what I said, I'm fully aware there are PVP RP servers in WoW, but I doubt they are as prevalent as PVE RP servers. SWG has only PVE RP, Everquest has only PVE RP, Vanguard had only PVE RP at one point.

My point is, the communities differ, in more than just gameplay, and trying to bring two completely different communities together for whatever motive some PVP players have, is a recipe for disaster.

No one cares about Vanguard, that game was a huge flop with almost no playerbase.

You initially said "Name some PvP RP servers". He did. You were wrong.

Twisted Nether (PvP RP) was my main WoW server for a long time. Everquest may not have explicitly said "PvP RP", but the different rulesets they had, including Sullon Zek (religion based PvP), and Tallon/Vallon Zek (Good,Evil,Neutral alignments) were heavily RP oriented PvP servers.

So, you're wrong.

PvP and RP can work together, and everyone can be happy. The fact that there are more PvE RP servers than PvP RP servers just goes to the fact that there are more PvE players than PvP players, not that the two can't coexist.

Originally posted by Quirhid

I think you should think of the mechanics first before attaching lore into them. For example, you should think of races are race A, race B, race C before deciding what those races actually are. That way you don't come too attached to the lore and the lore won't get in the way of designing functional and balanced mechanics.

When you approach things the way you do, you can easily add things which don't make sense balance or mechanics-wise, but makes sense lore-wise. For example, elves need to be X because otherwise they wouldn't be elves. Or if you have angels you must have demons, no? Yet from the mechanics standpoint there may not be a need for a race like demons, or they would be out of place or out of balance.

Bad mechanics and balance can ruin a game, yet creative people can create lore around the mechanics.

I 100% agree with this.

It will also be easier to come up with lore once you have the game mechanics fleshed out. While, it may be impossible to make certain things work in-game (such as the werewolf off-line pvp idea, which sounds awesome).

Just awful design.

They had to know this was coming. Can't see why people are still playing this awful game.

I really like this concept.

The only thing I'd change would be how the Fairies work. I like how they are supposed to be a purely PvE faction, but I don't think they should be able to engage in World PvP at all. Too many possible exploits with this.

Maybe allow them to participate in some structured PvP, but even allowing them to just heal in world PvP is asking for cheaters to abuse this.

Leveling was boring. PvP is very shallow. No PvE Endgame, except grinding.

Worth the $60... I guess. There are better MMO's out there though.

One game is a titanic achievement in gaming. The other, a boring clone of the aforementioned titan.

One had 16 million players in its prime. The other is losing players rapidly, after only a couple months post release, and it doesn't even have a subscription fee.

The quality and depth of WoW far surpasses the improved graphics (yet increased performance demand, and increase in zone walls, and lack of content) of GW2.

I played WoW from release until recently. I haven't played MoP yet. I played GW2 to level cap, got bored, and quit.

The game's sadly do not even compare. WoW was just superior in every way. It deserves the top spot on MMORPG.com, or this site loses almost all credibility in its rankings.

Originally posted by evolver1972

Instead of not really adding to what everyone else has said (already some really good posts on the subject), I'll ask you this:

 

Do you worry this much over paying $60 for a single player game?  Would you ask the same questions of a game like Skyrim or KOTOR?

 

Either way, I think GW2 is more than worth the $60.  And there is no subscription.  So basically, it's a AAA MMO for the same price as a SPRPG.  I don't think you can go wrong there.   On top of that, it's got more content than even Skyrim has.  And way more than COD: Black Ops would ever dream of having.

It's really not a triple A MMO.

It lacks the depth of EQ, DAoC, WoW. It's really just a shallow, boring grind to 80, and some woefully boring PvP.

But, it plays smooth, and has beautiful graphics. Much like dating a gorgeous model, who doesn't speak your language. All of the aesthetics are there, but there is no substance.

Your money is best spent else-where. [mod edit]

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Dulu

Season 3, I hit Gladiator with a Retribution Paladin on my 5's team.

 

Arms Warrior

Ret Paladin

Frost Mage

Restoration Shaman

Discipline Priest

 

 

But yes, you further proved my point. Blizzard had to choose between two types of gamers. The dedicated PVP player, and the casual who whines and can't seem to get out of his scrubby habbit of making excuses for his own failures. (You.)

 

This choice also had to be made in PvE, with Blizzard making everything much easier, adding a raid finder/auto-join dungeon finder, and moving to a pure token system for 100% viable pre-raid loot.

 

So, we're in agreement, the game could not be developed for both types of player in mind, and they made their choice. I hope you all are enjoying your Pandas.

 

lol the tournament only had one ,,, ONE ret Paladin.
even Shamans were in better shape. And that was in 5v5. lol

you are on some BS if you believe TBC Ret paladins could carry their own in Arena.

Didnt even have PvP stat on gear! Didnt even have a interrupt... lol.

and SoV was a joke unless you were exploiting the auto attack....

Many of the good players didn't bother with the tournament servers.

We were too busy cleaning house on the live servers, with our actual characters.

It wasn't just about the single character, like you seem to think. This is where the scrub mentality comes into play.

A retribution paladin was powerful with the proper team composition. Freedom on himself or the warrior, combined with dispels from the priest made our two melee DPS pretty hard to peel. Combined with the burst and lockdown from having windfury totem...

It was a powerful comp. It was essentially a 2345 set-up, with the Paladin and Shaman switching roles.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dulu

Phlacc, read my post again.

I would never work for a company like this, I'm happily employed. After watching the video of them begging for money ($100,000 donations ONLY please, thanks! - Goblinworks), I just wanted to do some research, to see what kind of people they were hiring.

Well, it turns out, they're not looking for visionaries, or talent. They're looking for people who can produce the same shit games we already have.

They can't have it both ways. They can't say "We're making something new and revolutionary." and say "We're only hiring people who have experience in producing trash for mass consumption to make as much money as possible."

They simply don't jive.

As others have said, you are erading way too much into it. They didn't say they wanted only people with expewrience the past five years but that it would be a plus to have had experience working on MMOs in the past five years as well as the other credentials.

Look, we get it - you feel they don't want you and you're upset. However you've got a very apparent sour grapes thing going on here. Personally, I put a lot more credience in the past history, past successes and present development blogs/articles of the team than in the very odd takeaway you present here from one misinterpreted job description.

My gripe has nothing to do with not being hired as the PVE designer for some trash game, which is clearly a scam to make money.

My gripe is that they're advertising one thing, and then doing the complete opposite. They're lying to people to get money.

Let me break this down one final time.

This company is saying "We want to revolutionize the MMO market. We want to make something unlike anything ever released".

Then, when you dig deeper, they are explicitly stating they will ONLY hire designers who have experience making the very thing they are trying to revolutionize.

Do you people want the same DESIGNER who worked on Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, etc designing new games?

Does no one on this site have a sense of irony, or a hypocrisy detector?

Originally posted by Cuathon

Do you understand that the coder isn't what makes the game revolutionary? The designer does that. It doesn't matter if you were a coder on a WoW clone or on ATITD, you aren't the designer. And furthermore having made such a mainstream MMO says nothing about your desires anyways. I know many people who worked on commercial titles who hated it and wanted to make cool games but they weren't lead designers so they didn't have a choice.

I am somewhat suspicious of Pathfinder. Generally you need a working demo or in progress engine like Repopulation has before you start begging for cash.

Do you understand this is the job posting for the DESIGNER? Not the CODER.

 Read the post.

Phlacc, read my post again.

I would never work for a company like this, I'm happily employed. After watching the video of them begging for money ($100,000 donations ONLY please, thanks! - Goblinworks), I just wanted to do some research, to see what kind of people they were hiring.

Well, it turns out, they're not looking for visionaries, or talent. They're looking for people who can produce the same shit games we already have.

They can't have it both ways. They can't say "We're making something new and revolutionary." and say "We're only hiring people who have experience in producing trash for mass consumption to make as much money as possible."

They simply don't jive.

So, I was checking out Pathfinder Online... They have no game footage on display yet, but they're asking for money. Apparently, investors only want to invest in a company that is going the "traditional route" and making games like "WoW 1.5" (Their words, video attached)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4lV4pnzAvc

Well, I did some research on the company, and this is what I found... Apparently, they are hiring, but only people who have worked on plopping out the same old trash we've seen for literally the past 5 years. They won't consider anyone who has worked in the field prior to WoW, or is a fresh Grad like myself.

I just found it funny. These people are not interested in making a revolutionary game. They want to make money. They can't get investors, so they want YOU to give them your money.

Job Posting for Game Designer, PVE:

"we're particularly interested in applicants who have worked on an MMO that was actually shipped and operated as a live game.

Knowledge of the Pathfinder intellectual property is a plus but not a requirement.  A history as a tabletop hobby gamer is also a plus, not a requirement.

Candidate should be able to show a prior work on scripted multi-part encounter designs

What are my new job responsibilities?

• Design create immersive and interesting missions and quests for characters involved in many different kinds of activities including crafting, transportation, diplomacy, harvesting, territorial defense, exploration and monster hunting

What are my new job requirements?

• Prior experience working with a shipped videogame title
• Ability to clearly communicate needs and processes to programmers and artists

What would set me apart from other candidates?

• Prior experience working on an MMO operating in a live environment in the past 5 years
• Previous work developing components for a large videogame title especially an MMO"

Originally posted by roo67

Originally posted by Dulu

Looks fake to me.

 

He's using the PS3 controller, but so is my 1.5 year old daughter. It doesn't mean the monkey, or my daughter, are conciously playing the game.

 

Also, if you look at the game footage, he's doing rather complex moves, like aiming down sight, shooting a player, then a barrel, then reloading.

 

If you look at the monkeys controller while playing, he doesn't use the L/R buttons at all, which is suspect, considering those are the default buttons to shoot and aim down sight.

I would have agreed with you but a couple of years ago I saw a documentary on the bbc about animal intelligence . this clip is a news item which features chimps from part of that documentary .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMHiOCD-0aI

Oh, for sure. Don't get me wrong, I know chimps are intelligent, I'm not disputing that. Richard Dawkins has a great video documentary on it too, I believe it's called "The 5th Ape". Basically comparing modern humans to our chimp cousins.

But back on topic, yeah I think Chimps can play games, but I think this particular footage appears fake, or at least altered to look better on camera (which by coincidence makes it look fake).

Looks fake to me.

He's using the PS3 controller, but so is my 1.5 year old daughter. It doesn't mean the monkey, or my daughter, are conciously playing the game.

Also, if you look at the game footage, he's doing rather complex moves, like aiming down sight, shooting a player, then a barrel, then reloading.

If you look at the monkeys controller while playing, he doesn't use the L/R buttons at all, which is suspect, considering those are the default buttons to shoot and aim down sight.