All Posts by Elikal

If Mythic would have shot themselves in the knee with every wrong decision they could whistle "God Save the Queen" on Paul Barnetts kneecaps now.

One shot was, not asking ppl to give their credit card numbers BEFORE the 30 days free period was over. I didnt even realize it, when suddenly I got a mail which informed me my WAR subscription was over. I thought tiny moment to resub when this evil word echoed in my mind... TOR ANROC. I just did not feel like going there again, so yeah I was very very tired of the same old.

You kow, the funny thing is, werent we all in a fenzy over all those things once? Public Quests, scenarios... all the stuff we thought would be SO cool are now the pitfalls of boredom in this game. Its kinda like this game was designed by Vulcans: they made market anaylis of functions needed and missing, but its totally devoid of dreams, of visions, of mystery. There is just no room to breath, to live... its all... functional.

Originally posted by Zayne3145

Originally posted by TheHavok

Golden age according to dictionary.com:

"the most flourishing period in the history of a nation, literature, etc."

 

EQ1 is still around, UO is still around, AC aswell as many other titles are still around.  Wow and warhammer are doing great, along with EQ2 and LOTRO.  Many games are doing fine.  Aion is around the corner, darkfall is around the corner, aswell as many other titles.

This is the golden age of mmorpgs and will remain that way until the community starts shrinking and/or publishers stop making games.

 

I'd say the Golden Age is yet to come.

UO, EQ1, DAoC etc were the pioneers. Then came King Warcraft who assumed the throne with sheer brute force. WAR and AoC were pretenders to the throne, but failed to mount a succesful coup. 2009 will be the peasants revolt that will bring about the revolution, leading us into the Golden Age...

A powerful image, but one I want to agree with. I sometimes feel like WOW has led us into a dictatorship of one ideal only. Since then, limited scope, casual friendly theme park games rule the day. I have hopes the upcoming games may chance that, but we'll see.

The sad truth is, in general once games were made by gamers for gamers. They were made by gamers who had this idea to make the ideal game they wanted to play themselves. Today most is just commerce, a ware to be sold with a max quantum of profit by greedy asses like EA and their stockholders. What I can only hope is that even the capitalists and bean counters sometimes realize that too limited dreams also are a bad investment. See AoC and WAR. They tried to perfectly cater one type of target audience, but it was way too limited in scope and in the end is so lackluster most people just leave the games after a short time.

That the last approach to make a vast game, Vanguard, had failed massively, did great damage to the entire genre. I said it back then and say it again, the failure of VG is something we all are going to suffer from for many years to come. No MMO developer will have the courage to try such a vast game in any forseeable time now. But I hope at least it gets a bit more creative and diverse with the MMOs 2009+.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

(or Bringing the random number generator back to gaming)

When I played my first MMO, I had a lot of crazy, magical ideas in my head. I didn't really know what to expect from the game, so my brain fed off of thousands of fantasy and sci-fi movies and books for ideas.  One of my guildmates was right along with me as a new MMO player and we would bounce delusions off of one another until we made the game 1000 times better in our minds, than what had actually been coded.  Yes, we actually saw, heard and experienced things in the game that were not really there.  No, I am not a loon.  I later learned that not only were many of my experiences completely imagined, but that many of them were just game bugs that my mind ran wild with.

Some of you will find this as funny as I do now looking back on it, but I also think there is something to be learned here about the future of mmo's if my thoughts can be translated to zeros and ones. So the game in question was SWG.  What delusions did we have?  Well, like everyone else in the early days of SWG, we had no real clue how to unlock our Jedi slot.  Most everyone wanted to do this, and the whole process was a complete mystery.  This was part of the magic.  My friend and I would always think, as we leveled and played the game, that we were slowly unlocking powers in our toons.  Powers beyond just granted by levels and stats. 

We would travel to mystical places and imagine being able to see farther as if we were granted powers from the land or spirits.  We would search around for the tiniest of clues to figure out how to progress our force path, and we felt the steps we had taken previously in the game had helped us to see things other players could not see. We would have graphics gliches (not really understood by us at the time) that would allow us to suddenly see through fog, or even buildings.  We would kill mobs  that we should *never* have been able to conquer with our feeble skills, again because of game bugs.  We would hear things.  We would see things.  Mind you, we were not purposely setting out to run wild with our imaginations.  We actually thought the game was so complex that random things like these would happen to you to let you know you were on the right path.  You were smarter and better than other players who also seek this path. Our imaginations running wild was a marvelous side affect of not really knowing what was 'normal' or 'possible' in an mmo.

As time went by and the secret of how to become a jedi in swg was revealed as a very simple formula of holocrons, profession grinding and badges that could be quickly duplicated by any lowly mortal.  The magic faded away, the mysterious world became a video game and stopped being a magical home away from home.  Luckily swg had enough depth and a fantastic community to keep us busy for a couple more years, so the transition from dream land to 'awesome, but limited gaming' was a soft landing.

I've often thought of that magic my friend and I experienced, but never posted it online until now.  It was no doubt enhanced by the two of us having the same kinds of thoughts, ideas and discussions about the world we were exploring, due to our blissful ignorance of game mechanics and limits. My question to gamers and game devs alike is; where has all the randomness and mystery gone in these games?  Why can't we create some game systems that allow for the random affects and experiences such as the ones I imagined?  Why must everything be a discoverable pattern that is then duplicated and posted online for everyone to read about and execute ad nauseum?  In short, how can we breath life, mystery and adventure into these worlds?  Is anyone working on truly dynamic content for mmos yet?

I feel a lot with you in this. My MMO career started with SWG and I know what you speak of. The mystery and romance wasnt so much in the game itself, but it was us who brought it with us into it. That was possible because the vast open world of SWG was such a good projection area and of course the Star Wars movies and books had fed our dreams. So it were ideal circumstances which can not just so replicated. 

Also there is one thing to say I feel is important. The greater part of mystery and romance was brought with us into it, because the game was open and free. Sandbox, as we say now. A linear game has no space to projection of dreams, but usually the fantasy in those linear dreams are very stale. They are very very small dreams compared to our big dreams from SWG times. Just a few days ago I went to youtube and looked for old SWG-memorial videos, and it still brings tears to my eyes, I am not ashamed to say. It was a dream, a spirit unlike anything. It was SO much more than just a game.

But I must confess I myself changed. I could not play a mere sandbox without any story and quests today. So my hope is SWTOR will be able to capture it, in a different way, and we will see mystery and romance again.

I think many gamers are just too fed up and worn out by the many trash games and broken hopes with the games we saw released in the last 1-2 years. Developers focus too much on generic, streamlined, casual friendly theme parks, where people are led from event place A to event place B asf., alsways keeping them entertained and hook nosed. There is no room for dreams and mystery in games like Warhammer. Its so sad to see such cold and sterile games, where all revolves around functionality. But I preserve my hope for the MMOs to come.

The EQ2 mages in all their variants are still quite powerful. Though the visual "power" is not quite up to date. The greatest "impact" you can do, both in terms of damage numbers as in terms of visual power is the Bright Wizard of WAR, though he he VERY vulnerable should anyone come close, so you do a lot of damage but also die a lot.

You could look out how that new Runekeeper class in LOTRO will be.

Originally posted by xaldraxius

NCSoft sucks. They've only ever had one decent game, CoH/V, and that was because of Cryptic Studios involvement not NCSoft's. After playing CoH for a couple of years I thought I'd try out some other games of thiers. Lineage II is an Asian grind fest MMO, Exsteel is crap, I did play Auto Assault for a month or two, but no one else did...

I have a feeling Aion is going to suck too. If it was Cryptic doing it you would at least have a large variety of character customization options, but being NCSoft, you'll probably have 4 or 5 faces and maybe 2 body styles, no sliders.

Let Tabula Rasa die, it was never any good to begin with and maybe NCsoft will stop spreading themselves so thin. In my opinion they are just as bad as SoE.

I can only agree. CoH was a great game in its fundament, but NCSoft totally failed to expand the basics and evolve it in any way. It was the only Super Hero themed game, great potential but wasted because NCSoft doesnt have a clue! Its one reason I am sceptic with Aion, as good as it looks.

Now with Garriots departure I wonder what will happen.

I agree with the OP. The limited CC is surely one aspect which makes combat dull and simplistic. Kinda dissapointing.

It is a matter of preferrence. I can only play a character to which I can relate and that means he must look like I want him to look and not just selected of a few premade faces (as iN WAR) or limited to a certain stereotype (as in AoC). It invokes the feeling to play someone else's character. Appearance is the manfestation of a character, which especially in roleplay is important. But even without I want to live my own dream not the dream set by others and that includes visual appearance.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I dunno what OP is talking about. I've never played a character in an MMORPG for its looks, I play them simply for stats.  Whatever race makes the best caster, and I'm there.  In some older MMORPG's this was always elves, so I made an elf.  

For a time in WOW, dwarves made the best alliance healers, so I played a dwarf.

There's a great internet cartoon called Order of the Stick which is largely based on original AD&D world and they make fun of the androgenous nature of elves, with the main characters occasionally pondering if their elf caster is male or female. (he/she never confirms)

 

 

Such are personal preferrences, heh. I can never imagine to play someone ugly no matter what his stats are and rather take the most tiresome character if he can be designed as I wish.

I can imagine a Bladerunner & Vampire crossover, some dark fantasy/sci-fi thing. We really dont have something like that. Sounds like a cool set of ideas, only in Macross I never was so much. I mean I love to watch the Anime but I cant imagine that as MMO. Maybe as Online FPS.

Thanks for sharing. The interior seems good, but I am totally against that spandex-Jedi.

What we see is that in many MMOs Elves are the most popular class. I personally play them whenever I can.

Now my imagination of Elves is somewhat different than yours. I dunno when this "Fairy" type of image of Elves came about, and since I didnt play WOW save than a few test weeks, I can only assume it comes from there.

My image of Elves is formed by Tolkien, and more the Silmarillion than the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien describes Elves as some kind of super humans. They are, I think even Tolkien himself described it that way, the idealized uber humans. They are ageless, always slim, intelligent, mostly of a higher ethics and unlike the D&D Elves the Tolkien Elves are STRONG, they are warriors.

You really should read the Silmarillion someday. Elves like Fingolfin were powerful warriors beyond compare. They were not the weak more magic guys the D&D universe often makes them. Their phsyical and intellectual powers both were way above humans. Like uber humans, as I said. Also their passions were kinda tempered, balanced, more harmonius. With a few exceptions, like the fiery Feanor. It is such Elves I have in mind when playing Elves in MMOs. Proud, strong, superior warriors with sophisticated emotions and culture. Think of Vulcans who did not entirely get rid of emotions. In the old Trek universe Vulcans similarly were discribed as physically immensly superior to humans.

Elves would also be free of the kind of prejudice and ridig thinking which plagues humans, which is another reason for me to favor them. My ideal Elves are the Dark Elves, and again not the evil version of D&D, I favor the honorable warrior kind of Dark Elves from the Elder Scrolls universe. You may think of them as the Elven version of Klingons.

My Elves have nothing in comming with the pink Fairies of human legend. ;)

I always was a great believer in logic and rationality. Now for me its kinda difficult to understand why someone, who thinks some poster is an idiot, even makes the effort to reply. So when I have nothing to say but negative, personal comments, why post? Its illogical, it leads to nothing. Its not that we need to agree on the subject at hand, but so often I see someone posts something, either his opinion or his experience, and a lot of replies dont even bother to reply in the sense of the word. They dont answer to what he says, but they start to specualate about his - usually presumed inferior - motivations. In short, they presume he is either bad or dumb.

Now trying to start to reply to someone in a forum whom you assume to be either bad or dump is illogical. It can not lead to any meaningful dialoge. Not to say IF that person IS bad or dumb, but why reply when you make that assumption? Thats the entire thing where I find people do not think about their way of posting. They assume you are a dumbass, a notorious liar (either as hater or fanboy usually).

If I assue you are a blind fanboy or a blind hater, why waste the time and talk to him at all? It makes no sense. Dialogue makes sense when I accept the other means what he says, when I actually LISTEN and reply to what he says and not reply to what I suspect him what I interpret what he said.

The typical example is, someone says a certain feature in a MMO is not how he likes it. Say "WAR has not enough character customization". Now one calls him a hater, who wants to slander WAR. Now there can only be two logical cases. (1) Its true and he really wants to slander the game. If so, then it does not make any sense to reply to him, for his mission is slandering WAR and dialogue is not possible. Or (2) His concern is serious and geniune, then I can start a meaningful dialoge either saying (a) I agree because XYZ or (b) I disagree because ABC...  There are no logical alternatives. It has nothing to do with a person liking me or what, its simple logical deduction of the choices. Sorry if it sounds a bit dry.

First, my apologies to the moderators, but I felt a debate about this was important enough to no let it vanish in some forum part with less attention. I guess I am not the only one who feels some people drag this forum down to a level where it becomes difficult to keep a debate which makes sense. I dont even go so far to say most do this on evil purpose, on the contrary, I am sure most people are not really aware of the damage they do.

Debating and discussing are vital parts of a civilized person and a civilized culture. Its the root of society and democracy and without that skill a society will fall into barbary. Now sure, here we have not very vital topics, namely gaming, but we must keep learning and bettering ourselves even in small matters.

Frequently in all kind of forums we see people accused of trolling. It kinda strikes me like a new fashion to name people trolls. Not that there are no trolls, but in the end just going into someone's thread and calling him troll is trolling as well.

Now the goal of language is to produce understanding. You want to make others understand what you say, and vice versa you listen to understand what the other wants to say. That may be either experiences, reports of facts or mere opinion, but it is always some kind of information.

So when someone writes something in a post, the only thing that makes sense is to try to enter a dialogue. The only reasonable, justified thing to reply to anyone is trying to start a dialogue, for thats the purpose of a forum, to speak with others. In order to do that, you must write something to which the poster can reply in any meaningful way, and thats the general rule I try to make to my own postings:

Write in such a way, that the poster can reply in a meaningful way.

Meaningful is, that a dialogue continues. For thats the purpose of a forum, and thats the purpose of language, to make others understand you and so you can understand them. For anything else grunts would be sufficient.

So before you post something the next time, ask yourself: can the poster reply to this in any meaningful way which I could find a satisfying answer, a meaningful continuation of a dialogue?

Now to achieve this we must assume the opinion of the other is geniune, and we dont start to question his sincerity. We cant make any guesswork about the author's motivation, as we often find, because if you are honest with yourself you must admit, you dont know a drat about his motivation. You dont know him personally and you cant read his mind. So dont pretend you can. Guesswork like "you want to bring drama", "you want to show us what expert you are" are just that: guesswork about the posters "real" motivation, and thats a dialogue killer. Speculating about someone's motivation ends any dialogue, for you accuse him of something which he cant proof to be otherwise. How is someone supposed to proof his geniune concern? Thoughts and emotions can't be shown, so you accuse him of something that neither side can ever proof and you kill the dialogue. To such assumptions no one can ever answer in a meaningful way.

The other thing which ends any dialogue is sarcasm. I know its tempting sometimes, but sarcasm and irony are likewise dialogue killers, because nothing meaningful can be answered to mockery.

If you dont assume the poster is reasonable - which does not mean you share his view! - but if you do not expect the other one is geniune, there is no reason to post. Maybe he IS an idiot, fine, but then no reply whatsoever will lead to anything. The only valid, logical reason to reply is, that you accept the other one is genuine and sincere in what he says. For with any other assumption no dialogue will have any result. You will only try to proof to the audience that you are a smartass, and really, if you need that there are better places to get applause.

My suggestion is, make these two rules your guidelines for posting:

(1) Assume the poster is a sane, thinking human being whose post is of personal, genuine value. You dont have to share his view, but you have to respect it. If you dont find you can do this, dont reply.

(2) Write in a way that the poster can continue a meaningful dialogue. Always ask yourself before you post: "Can the poster reply to this in a meanigful way that satisfies me and keeps a dialogue going?"

If the esteemed mods sticky this I am sure we save ourselves all to repeat the same lesson over and over. Given the fact we are mortals with limited time I dont see the logic in trying to solve those basics every few weeks anew. I think all sensitive people would greatly benefit from taking these guidelines.

Thanks for your time.

Phew, that character looks just hidiously bad. The spandex, the Disney colours... terrible.

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Elikal

Now before there is more SWG vet bashing, which seems to incredible fashionable, lets make one thing clear: so far I have seen NONE of us who said TOR should be like SWG,and neither did I say that.

I am just a bloke with a long list of games I played and I have played games with possibilities which other games have not. I have seen freedom in MMOs, visions, real fantastic things, and many people who played SWG dream of those FEATURES, which they lack. We are kinda like advocates of "cuisine", the art of cooking real meals in a land where most people never ate anything but Fast Food. You grew up with burgers and dont know better, so I understand some of you are sceptical. Sure, making a real meal takes more time and need more work, but trust me: once you make it right, its worth it. And so with a better vision of TOR.

NEVER did I say I want TOR to be like SWG. That would be terrible. BUT: learning from good features in existing MMOs is nothing to be ashamed of, and some of those features only existed in SWG. Bioware, TOR and every new MMO gamer would only profit from those features, we know how they worked and how good they were. The only folly is totally casting aside any advice and report of experienced gamers. As the history of the MMOs published in the last 2 years, NOT listening to those with experience ALWAYS meant that those companies shot themselves in the knee. The list of failed MMOs is long enough to BE concerned.

Its not like we wanna cut something from TOR which is precious to you, but add what we know from experience is fun. We want to see the design expanded, extended and made richer, more complex, because as a Star Wars fan I am convinced the IP deserves more than a lackluster, mediocre standard fare. I think all real Star Wars fans should unite in that interest and not work against it. Unless you WANT delibaretely TOR to fail, of course.

You are only mentining your list of game because you want to show everyone how much more important your opinion should be?  Right.  You feel you are special here? That you are somehow more qualified than the rest.
 

If  you love game design so much, why are you not making your own games?  Can't see much excuse for not doing so.

Maybe you respond to the points I am making rather than my person. A critique is not more or less valued if I would make my own MMO. Maybe people are critics of books, movies, food or whatever and never wrote a book, made a movie or cooked a meal, and thats totally inessential to critic.

I think bringing examples isnt snobbish, as you seem to conclude. I prefer to point to examples in actual games over theoretical explanations.

Did you have anything to say to my points? Or did you just try to slander me? Everything you replied here was a try to drag down me as person, as if I were some kind of idiot who makes up arguements for drama. If you have difficulties to debate about opinions like an adult  you should not come to a forum.

I am granting myself the luxury of having absolutely no opinion about this game. Everything I hear is so... alien, I dont know what to think.