Originally posted by Tekkaman

The above poster has some valid points, except for the fact that A) You don't have to be in a fellowship and B) You probably don't play with other people. My whole crew was waiting for this feature to come into play before we quit months ago. Why? Because some of us worked and some of us had time off so we could help eachother get through the levels. Not everyone plays a game for PvE content... Not that it isn't cool, but playing on the PvP server means that PvE is second and PvP is first, so leveling as fast as possible is definitely a good thing. Missing out on the quests means nothing in that situation. *EDIT* Isn't this supposed to be an MMO? You're playing by yourself if you're complaining the way that you are I'm very sure. Learn to socialize and compose a group of individuals with likeminded goals and stop being so greedy, thinking that your precious XP is going to be "stolen". Your entire philosophy of the subject has so many holes that it looks like swiss cheese. 

Also, some people don't like going through the same exact quests every time they reroll a character. Believe me, if you want to bring up the argument of, "but not every race/class gets the same quests d00d!", then let me excuse my previous statement and say that upwards of 95-98% of the quests you do will be ones that you had already done. Woohoo, so fun to read the lore every single time you level a character to 40+, which by the way takes very little time even by going through quests. If you care, you can accept the quest and read its dialogue on the way to your quest monsters or areas... It saves time.

My point is, as the word is "the way is the goal". I dont play to "get this and that level", I play to enjoy the game itself, so I dont see the point in giving XP for free. Its a contradiction to all I feel makes a MMO: that you WORKED for what you get. It doesnt mean you cant get help, mentoring can help. But its not giving things for nothing. If you lack the time to level, well you bad luck, but I dont have 3 dozens of friends who carry me all along while I play with myself rather than the game and then get an uber level char for nothing. I have to work every single XP point and the idea others get XP for nothing sucks. Simple as that. I prefer PVE yes, but in PVP it would suck EVEN MORE, to be nuked down by someone who has a max level char who were online just a few days because he has generous friends. Or pays them to XP for him. No thanks, I dont like this feature at all. As I said, its a matter of philosophy for me that people have to work for what they get, and that I know, when I look at some char, what he is and has is the result of that person's work.

Originally posted by beauxaj

 

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 

Originally posted by Bahamutff10

 

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 We are also finalizing the Brotherhood system. This will allow you and your Brotherhood members to share XP, even when your characters are offline." Bill explained that it was a device to keep friends together.

Now THIS is a great idea! Neat new take on a way of keeping friends together in a MMORPG.  It will be interesting to see if they can make this mechanic work.

This is a very old idea thought up by Sigil and was called the Fellowship system. I don't remember Sigil implementing it but they still deserve credit for thinking of it.

If Sigil thought it up, why didn't they implement it? 

I can say I thought up the idea for anti-gravity boots.  That doesn't mean I should get credit for them if someone else makes a working pair.

Talk is cheap.  Getting an idea to work is what makes one deserving of credit.  Of course, the SOE people sitll have to show they can implement the idea successfully.

Actually its an old idea alright, It came from Asheron's Call way back in 1999 when they called it a monarchy.  You can wrap it up in a new name but its pretty much the same thing.   I knew of one person who had a few people beneath him because they started out together. All his friends played hardcore and would have been 30+ levels higher than him if not for that system. 

 

 

Now this is just another reason I think VG will fail to get out of the niche it is now. It all sounds cool in theory. Like migrating mobs in D&L sounded cool.

But in fact, its just another not really thought through concept like SO MANY from the "vision".

What does it do?

It makes those who play sacrifice a part of their XP to those that dont. WTH? Why should someone, anyone give away his hard earned XP (especially since XP doesnt come cheap in VG anyway) to a person who is either lazy or has no time. I mean, its up to everyone how much he plays or not, I really dont care. But why should I give them XP presents?

And the other way around. I log out with my lv 15 char, because I have some holiday or journey, and when I come back he is 25 and I missed all the 15-25 level quests? WTF?

Sorry, this is totally BS IMO. Why not make some SIMPLE pragmatic, old fashioned mentoring? And add some side-kicking as in CoH. problem solved.

Its the typical example of those high nosed Sigil devs, who wanted to re-invent the wheel, and better, just to satisfy their egos and show novelty just for the sake of novelty. Mentoring was good, so why change a running system? I dont the heck want to give XP for nothing nor receive XP for nothing. The enitre idea was bad from start, like many, and was innovation merely for the sake of innovation. Why SOE still works on it under a new name but same system is beyond me. Its CRAP like so many of those "visions".  Bah.

Hm, its a rumor I'd want to believe, but for now it could be anything. Personally, the idea of a KOTRO MMO from bioware sounds quite good, but the entire star wars topic is so difficult, I could not blame them for keeping it a secret until its really in a state of stability. Which is an indicator it might indeed be some star wars MMO.

IMO it will be a stable niche game like CoH or DDO. Some good some bad things, it has its fanbase, but too exotic to become mainstream IMO. Not for everyone, but those who play it will likely love it for the things it does different.

Originally posted by Phos

STO only started development about 2 years ago, but there are already "vaporware" posts creeping up in these forums because it's "taking so long." (this is ridiculous.) VG suffered this same problem too. Darkfall is also getting a lot of heat from gamers for its dev time.

Gamers tend to do 3 things when it comes to development:
1) Start giving input when it's too late to change the game
2) Make up and perpetuate rumors and fake stats to support bogus statements
3) Complain about development time (posting "vaporware" accusations) and then complaining when the game isn't perfect after being rushed out the door.

Dev teams/companies can avoid this nonsense by just not making it public knowledge that they're developing a game until the last year of development. OR they should announce the development of a game with a long-term development schedule including an 'input' phase and a realistic release date (with some fudge-factor) so gamers have a realistic idea of when to expect the game.

- Phos

 

 

Well, while I enjoy reading news about games in development, I dont taken anything granted before half a year before release. Before its just funny info, interesting to read and keep people interested. But it can backfire of course. People should not take pre-release hype so serious, its their own fault. I fell too, and its my fault as well. So. But still, I dunno if you really can keep a game development a secret. They need some sort of pre-release publicity.

Maybe Bioware or somene is making SWG II and someday we all hear "its out now" out of the blue! I dunno... ^^

Well so much for opinions... IMVPO tThe classes and races were the only thing I did NOT find boring! Actually I found them to be the most interesting in any of the 2 dozen MMOs I have seen. I only find the world boring.

Oh well...

Err... I dont mean that in a mean way... but have you been on Mars the last months? I mean, this is old news, we all knew, and now we are about... 6 steps further or so. Personally, I think even with 2 more years VG would be crap, because I think the vast majority who did NOT decide to play VG or leave did so because they didnt like the Vision. Many MMOs lived up very well even tho they lacked a lot of features, but the WORLD and game system were interesting. VG is just a sterile, boring game no matter how many more hardcory 1999 "visions" they would have implemented. Its not what is NOT there that is the problem, there is already far too much of this VISION inside and now we are on the phase to convince SOE to make a NGE in VG.

Oh and to the first kiss quote: my first kiss was a girl. A short time after that I realized I am gay. So much for this EQ nostalgia. I know many EQ1 vets in EQ2, SWG and LOTRO, and NONE OF THEM wants a corpse run or such crap again. I am just quoting, I never played EQ1. It was just far too much presumed, mythical visions instead of solid market research and pragmatic approaches. There are no answers in visions.

LOTRO is really good, but its new, so it hasnt yet so many features as WOW now has after years. You might want to check EQ2, its a bit different, but one of the best and has many features.

I am not sure it sells. Its more a nerd-teenager-trap. Sure you get more pimpled teenages straights to buy it, but you also loose customers. I know several female gamers and families who avoid games with "boob-shows".

Personally, I am really not prude and sex is all nice and good. But unless it really fits the game I dont want to see sexual eye catchers on game packages or in the game or in ads. Playing lotsa fantasy I am just too much influenced by Tolkien or Dungeons & Dragons style, so it doesnt fit into my imagination of such worlds. You can depict beauty without almost nude mini-bikini chainmails! We really dont have to go to Amish-style, but what many ads and games depict really borders on degrading females. I dont want semi-nude people of whatsoever gender in my fantasy games. Or any game. Unless it REALLY fits. We really need less stupid trash-art in games, and 99% of seminude is just total trash.

Originally posted by Tnice

 

Originally posted by Manestream

At this moment in time i doubt i will go back to VG, i still feel ripped off for purchasing the game in the 1st place with all teh bugs and problems, not to mention letting most of the free months play die to 1. problems with the game 2. finding bugged quest after bugged quest after loads of other bugs. The game was just plainly not very playable. I am in early beta for a game right now, and that is playing 100% better (although they have yet to add loads of content).

Unless Sony do something significant to pull us x-vanguard players back and take a new look at it, because that is what it is going to take to get alot of old players back. Right now, as far as i am concerning, the game has cancer and should be put down, end of!

SOE is trying to compensate people who were ripped off by Vanguard by giving them a couple of free EQ2 expansions and free EQ2 playtime.

 

 

 

Hm not a bad move. Play EQ2 while we fix VG. Not bad.

Just one thing: WHAT has a semi-nude women to do with fantasy gaming? I mean ok, generally the female gender's beauty is not what I am into anyways, so my question goes more to the straights: do you really think its appropriate the depict boobs on every damn game? I mean, its just as silly as those seminude girls in those car-shows. I mean, even if they would use semi nude men, I would just laugh, because WTH has that to do with a funny fantasy game? I mean, maybe I am too old fashioned with my Tolkien-standarts. I guess is Tolkien would have been first published in 2007 we'd see the big boobs of Galadriel on the cover. Seriously, this is so "simple catch straight males attention" aka Nerd-trap, imagining dozens of pimples nerd teens who dont see boobs otherwise. Tsk. Just for a second imagine instead of swollen boob-girls swollen crotch-boy on every 2nd game pack today. So silly. I had many good games but the teen-style package often made me grab it only with a really long fork mumbling something to the salesmen "its for my teenage nephew"... Like Two worlds.... *Shudder* I am really not prude, but erotic to erotic mags and gaming to games and dont mix it. 

Wow, I am famous now. ^^

Thanks for taking this topic into a feature.

So much pressure now to live up to the fame. ^^

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

With Senators named 'SmokingFrog' and 'IronChickenPro' it's no wonder the Emperor decided to disband it lol

LOOL! Thanks you saved my day! LOL 

Originally posted by mmonkey

Anyone see some irony here?

SOE made sweeping changes with SWG against the wishes of the (most) player-base, and they ended up getting burned for it.

Now it seems that many players *want SOE to make sweeping changes to the core of VSoH, but it doesn't sound like they'll do it.

I wonder if Vanguard would already be a dramatically different animal if SOE hadn't recently gone through the NGE fiasco.

Great! I really wondered I was the only one to think so. Good to see someone with intelligence here. ^^

After NGE I guess SOE is too afraid now for real changes, and thats an irony, because if VG falls it will be because they didnt dare to make deep enough changes. What a wonderful irony indeed.

Hm, nothing really specific. I just marveld about two things:

"Bill had recently seen the bill of materials required to construct a Guild Hall and marveled at the sheer volume of work that would be required to undertake such a task. I had to chuckle. Well, it's a huge structure meant to house many people. In the real world, that bill of materials would be much larger and longer. Players have been waiting for that for a long time, I mentioned. "I can't believe the amount of resources it's going to take!" exclaimed Bill, "but it's going to be very neat as it involves all three spheres of gameplay in Vanguard. Diplomats, Crafters as well as Adventurers have to be involved to create a Guild hall."

They STILL dont GET IT. Housing the building ships is a nice feature. but for making things which are 99% useless and merely fancy they are FAR too complicated and involve far too many people to make. Its not everyone that knows 30 different people willing to work for him! I played SWG many years and housing or starships later with the addon were not easy to get either. But you didnt need to know an entire guild of crafters! You got the money and one crafter made you the stuff, end of the story. And damn are those VG houses TINY! I mean, the biggest version I have ever seen is barely the size of the smallest SWG house. Those tier 1 houses have roughly the size of a prison cell - and the charm of it. And all the big work and money for THAT? Sorry, but not with me. I dont think that will attract more than very hardcorish ppl once more. Its just they dont get the damn message what the problem of VG is.

"I was informed that John Hegner was recently also designated "Lore Master", and his task is to straighten out the many stories that are in Vanguard and mesh them into a cohesive whole. As Bill tells me, John has also been with Vanguard since day one, and is an avid table-top gamer. "The stories in Vanguard were disconnected. John's task is to bring them all together and also lead us into future story arcs."

Thats good to know. Much of the quest and lore stuff need an overhaul. I am from a pen and paper background too, so this sounds promising at least. Lets hope there are players left until they are ready. Time seems to be running out.

Originally posted by Urdig

I think Elikal's avatar is cool. 

Cooler then not having one.

Teh, since I drew them myself, thanks. ^^

Originally posted by rascalcmos

 

Originally posted by Elikal

 

Originally posted by eugam

speechless

 

Please tell me you are a minor. Not 15 yet ? If so, i apologize. Else you should stop playing any video game available.

 

LOL. Its always a pleasure to be in the easygoing, friendly and understanding community of VG, whose neverending spirit of community and openmindedness attracts more and more players. 

....the avatar image, the rogue's "cyber ninja" name, the fact that you die in a dungeon made for group and start complaining the game doesn't fit YOUR needs....no genius required to figure out the "Not 15 yet"

 

but - hey! - of course i must be saying that because VG community is meeaaan....

 

Ok, I kinda have to out myself here. I am a great fan of the Traveller pen and paper game. Or used to be, since its kinda dead now

Now dont tell me, you dont know what Traveller is? You know Dungeons and Dragons - the BIG pen and paper game, which is swords and sorcery. Now Traveller is also like D&D just that its sci-fi not fantasy. Its a kind of like Star Trek, Star Wars and Asimovs Foundation & Empire worlds put together, kinda.

If you want to read what Traveller is about, check this wikipedia article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_%28role-playing_game%29

I know saying I want it wont help, heh. But I had to make some noise for my old and hidden love, Traveller. It is a really great game system, and especially a very interesting "world". Quite a shame, it was relatively popular in the 1980ies or so and then more or less sunk into oblivion. Well, it still exists, but its quite a shadow flower now. There were two PC games called MegaTraveller, early sci-fi RPGs; imgagine a scifi Baldurs Gate just on old graphics, which were released 1990 and 1991.

Oh well, I guess some dreams must remain dreams. I just think we have ENOUGH Elves, wizards, Dwarves and Paladins now. Its weird that the high classic sci -fi kinda got out of fashion. I mean, most sci-fi games, single player and multiplayer, are usually merely shooter, not RPGs, which is quite a loss. Why must RPGs always be swords and sorcery? I really would like to see something different now. Traveller was a good sci-fi RPG. Maybe someone, sometimes finds this old jewel and thinks of something. ^^

Dreams...

A very interesting read. I can agree to several statements, but I think some observations need a slightly different perspective. Mind ya, in this territory its all educated guesses for all of us.

What I see is more a general shift in gaming. I play computer games for over 20 years, starting with C64 & Amiga and later my first 286 PC. Games changed a lot since then, and MMOs are no different in this than other games, only that MMOs are a bit more behind.

Back in the "old days" we had EQ and UO and that was all. There was no choice. People just never had played games like those, so they had nothing to compare it to. They just didnt know better, and didnt know how to really judge it. Single player games had quite evolved at that time, because they had about two decades of comparision and competition. I always believed competition is good for the customer, because it forces companies to make better quality, since in a very competitve market bad products drown very fast.

Back when EQ and UO were new, they more or less were a monopoly. There was no choice, no background to compare it to, and it wasnt a big industry either, so no much money to gain. It was a tiny niche product for a VERY small selection of gamers. I vividly recall those days, when some of my friends started to play UO and EQ. Since I play computer games since the early 80ies I was of course curious, so I visited them and watched them play and explain me how EQ and UO were working. Even tho I spent a lot of time with gaming and I was still younger, EVERYTHING I heard about MMOs back then was abhorrent to me.

Waiting hours for boss mobs, fighting over camps, corpse runs, PKing - ALL of it! In that way I am no different today in my opinion than I was eight years ago. I never liked this kind of gameplay, because essentially I play to be part in an adventure. I come from a pen and paper background and played those games for decades. For me, going into a game was like making such an adventure. Actually I enjoyed being a game master more than being an adventurer, and I am proud to say in those 150 or so times I was game master only two people ever died. Back then death was permadeath. For us, those pen and paper games were adventures. We didnt do it for proving ourselves, we did it for the excitement of a strange world, of playing a role and fighting monsters. In the end, everyone got something. A few cool new items, some money and experience points. I usually played it so one complete adventure was one new level, so people had the feeling to go ahead, and I can say everyone of the not few people who had me as "Dungeon Master" were happy with the experience.

So yes, its escapism. But for me and all the people I know in RL it ALWAYS was escapism. Actually, I personally dont need the risk of loosing money, loot or XP in death to feel excited. That is an idea I never understood and never will. I am excited because of the battle, I try my best to win and to avoid death, and I dont need any additional penality. I never felt otherwise as schoolboy than today as older person. And my real life friends with whom I share the interest in gaming through all those years are all more or less like me in this case. For us, its the experience itself, like a story, but which you are part of. The fun to explore and combat and evolve your character. Some people collect toy trains. They gather more and more and new parts, but they dont want to smash their trains to feel some additonal thrill. It doesnt mean I want levels, coin or XP for free. On the contrary, I often enjoy difficult settings. But DIFFICULTY is something TOTALLY different than penalities!

A logic puzzle is difficult - at least for me. But it has no penalities, nor does it need them. Today I dare to do PVP, I made a lot of PVP in SWG - since they took out death penality. It does however NOT mean I charge into battle like a madman, or death doesnt matter. Everyone still fights strategical and tries his best. But now people participate in PVP who didnt in older days when PVP was connected to usually harsh penalities.

So I didnt change, its the games that changed. And I think that is also the answer. MMOs opened to the broader audience of gamers, instead of the narrower audience of risk-takers. Also, in 2007 we know better. IMO a majority of those who played EQ1 in 1999 and accepted the corpse run and other "old school" features now dont accept it, not neceesarily because they grew older, but because now they are USED to other standarts. You might say we are spoilt, but as I said, if MMOs 2007 would have penalities and difficulties like 1999 I never would have played them, and many who did now just adapted to a more user-friendly experience. I feel that is progress, because as I said, I dont think camping a boss mob 8 hours to wait for his spawn or facing a harsh penality is any CHALLANGE or difficulty. A challange lies in the encounter itself. Or not.

For me VG is the attempt to bring back dinosaurs. One of the central evolutions in single player games was the additon of quest journals and ingame maps. I recall well making dozens of maps on chequered paper and endless pages of handwritten notes on quests and hints back in the Ultima IV days. It was normal for me back then. But today we have automap and journals, and I just dont want to go back to Ultima IV, no matter now much I adored that game back then. And I still kept my 20 year old notes! But still, one thing is nostalgia, progress the other. In that EQ2, WOW and LOTRO represent progress while VG just was trying to bring back nostalgia, which IMVPO opinion was doomed to fall from start.

Sorry for the longwinded-ness. ^^

Lately, especially following up the discussions around VG and LOTRO the question of instances is brought up again. It seems to be a sort of central question to allow or not allow instances in a game. What we read, usually, is that instances are either be held as the devil itself or as the solution to all problems.

Personally, I dont think such extremes do the complexity of the question credit, and I feel a more balanced approach is a way to a solution.

My first MMO was SWG, which is quite devoid of instances, which shaped my understanding of a MMO greatly. Then I move to EQ2, which uses instances, but only sparsely. The only game I played which uses a lot of instances was CoH, since all your missions are instances, but as CoH is shaped, you just cant make those missions otherwise, so it wasnt a big deal either.

The only really bad encounter with instances I had, was DAoC. I didnt play it very long, but I realized that many people were lost from the open world in instances, since some expansion had added a lot of instanced dungeons with great loot and XP. Oh and of course GW. I must say, despite the nice graphics I hate GW. The entire world, besides the cities, are instances (at least in the original version, I never tried the later versions), and so the very idea of a MMO - meeting other people and see a living world - was kinda ruined.

Still, I dont understand why some people are so totally against instances? If I take EQ2, which had some instanced dungeons, you had something for yourself and your group, but since instances were not abundant, it didnt have the effect to "empty the world" from players.

One of the best manifestations to show what good instances can do if they are implemented well, is LOTRO. Really, the instances there are one of my main reason now to play the game. About 80-90% of the game is open space. But what can only be done in an instance and never in open space is story telling. I love story telling and before LOTRO I never had seen anything like this! For the first time I ever saw A REAL, compelling story in my questline, going on around me, making ME part of the story and the world I am in. Such a deep, emotionally catching scene could never be made without an instance. In an 100% non-instanced world those stories are always merely told by a text.

In instance-less worlds stories work like this: NPC A tells about a situation, you do some killing, and then NPC A or B tell in a text window how the story ends, which is a quite sterile way to tell a story. If you play LOTRO you ARE the story, it really happens all around you, and they dont spam the game with instances all over. Its applied at the end of a story or some quest-line, when you confront some boss who is behind the things of your certain questline. Really, I think you can not really tell stories in a MMO without instances, and thats where they truly shine. Its something you see the story-climax, instead of a story which is only passively told to you by an NPC as in games without any instancing.

I am curious about your opinions.

/discuss ^^

Hm, I never was into mages. Sure you do lotsa damage, but you're so vulnerable in that bit of cloth. I usally feel well with Pallys. Gimme a big axe or sword and some platemail with some small heals here and there for emergency. ^^

I love the VG ranger too. Most things were dead before they could even reach me. :D