All Posts by Elikal

I am surprised you are surprised. Mythic has followed the policy to support the faction who needs a buff, and currently most agree Order needs one. I am quite sure thats purpose and going to stay until the balance of power changes.

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

Is this the price we must pay to have the other end of the spectrum- freedom, fun, PvP, and the risk/reward and nostalgia of UO?

I have never had as much fun and excitement as when I played UO pre-trammel... BUT...

1) I was young then. I had plenty of time to waste, and wasted time without caring.

Now, although part of me wants to experience classic pre-trammel UO, the other (more mature and intellectual) part of me keeps thinking "Why pay $15 a month to work for 3 hours getting gold, only to lose all of it because a Gank Squad of 15 men come by and kill me mercilessly- giving me no chance at all to win or fight back. Where is the fun in time-sinks? Where is the fun in losing hours of hard work? Where is the fun in having a great time in PvE only to have it end in anger and frustration that I couldnt do anything about the fact 10 professional PK's came up and killed my group of 3 WHILE we were already half dead?"

There is no fun, only frustration- in being ganked, PK'd, and looted. Especially when you have no chance of winning (already hurt by monster, overwhelming odds, etc.)

There IS fun in freedom, open PvP, attack-anyone, UO-type world.

 

 

This example is a lot like playing DAoC towards the end of its life. The sides were so unbalanced in the Zerg vs Zerg vs Zerg, that all I could do is run an 8-man, roaming around searching for something to fight. This resulted in a waste of time, and the end of my DAoC career.

I quickly realized, I wasnt really playing the game or having fun enough to constitute playing or paying. The gameplay consisted of working for 1 hour to get a full group going, roaming for 20 minutes only to find

a) Find a solo, which would be a 8v1 fight, which is boring bc they have no chance
b) Find a 2-3 man group, which again is a 8v3 fight, which is over before it began and thus boring.
c) Find the Zerg, running into 3 full groups of 24v8, which is over before it began and thus boring.
d) Find nothing, roaming again for 20 minutes.
e) The rare 1% chance of running into another full group and having a fair, fun battle of 8v8

And thus repeat, roam 20, a-e, roam 20, a-e, roam 20. So when I reailzed I had been playing for 4 hours, but actually only got to play for about 10 minutes, I quit. It was fun- but it was wasting away TONS of my time, and felt like a waste of life.

 

I am wondering if the risk/reward is going to be worth it? It has been many, many years since my pre-trammel UO days, and I will never play another MMO with time-sinks. Whether those time sinks are long travel times and grinding just to be able to have fun (most MMO's) or time sinks that consist of playing, only to be PK'd and have to start over from scratch.

A time sink is a time sink.
Frustration is frustration.
Unfair fights suck, and regardless if you're the winner or loser- they're boring.

Edit: There is a reason I dont play EQ1. Talk about a great game- but HUGE time sinks. There is a reason games like Vanguard added riftways, and future games are getting rid of death penalties and travelling. Time sinks are a thing of the past, and people honestly dont want to pay, play, or have fun if it means the majority of the time is going to be boring, frustrating, or draining.

Discuss.

Thanks for this honest report. Many UO and EQ1 vets fool themselves into how great the times were and how great Darkfall will be for reviving the past. The amount of ppl who REALLY will enjoy the return to the MMO stone age is just minimal, because

1) as you said we are not as young as we used to be and

2) we just didnt know better back then and

3) we didnt have any alternative MMOs in those days.

Why any sane person really desires such a gankfest is beyond me. Even if I would for whatever reason be sure to be mostly on the winning side I could not take pleasure from the knowledge of making people sad on purpose.

Clearly LOTRO.

Originally posted by Flyte27

I don't entirely agree with this as I didn't find AoC or WARs combat that much fun.  In AoC the combos were not fun.  They just increased the amount of clicking you did.  It's not a whole lot of fun to click on the highlighted arrow IMO.  I enjoyed the swordmaster in WAR for a little while, but clicking on a sequence of buttons over and over and over again is not fun.  Both WAR and AoC lacked the fun skills like water breathing, water walking, and turning into something that will increase your movement speed.  Personally I miss those types of things when they are not present.  Right now I'm playing around with WOTLK and I still find the combat more enjoyable then either of those games.  I'd rather use FPS like Fallout 3 then use either of those systems.

You are right. I too didnt feel AoC or WAR combat really good, but it was a good experiment in the right direction, away from the dull, simplistic ever clicking the same combat of the EQ days.

Tho I find Warden really a blast to play I must admit. I never thought Turbine's LOTRO would present one of the most fun to play classes I have seen for a time.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by Elikal

WOW is not my kind of game, but anyone who says WOW hasnt brought a ton of changes to the MMO genre is simply fooling himself. You may really make a difference between "changes I like" and "changes which became influental".

The genius of the Blizzard devs is not inventing everything new, but perfecting things and making them popular. They didnt invent radar or symbols over quest givers head, but they caused those things to become standard in most MMOs. Is just as it IS. Now you are free to hate those changes, but saying they dont exist is like covering your eyes with your hands and yelling "you cant see me".

Yelling someone down because he is 18 and WOW his frist MMO is plain dumb. If experience would make humans wiser we would have a gerontocracy and live in paradise by now.

I really would like to know what this phasing exactly is? Can someone describe it to me please?

I'll describe it as I've seen it in four occassions. This is from personal experience. If you're looking about mechanics, you need to speak to people more qualified than me.

1. Starter areas. Death Knight starting area is a big demonstration of this technology. I won't go into spoilers but the whole area around you changes with every quest line you complete. For example, first the fields have farmers running away from their houses, later on the same houses are burning etc etc. You're never alone. You can still see all the people on the starting area, but they see the world around them differently, depending on their actions. For you the farmers may still evacuating the areas, for them the villages is already burning.

2. Daily quests. Dragonblight daily to defend the tower have you attack dragons while you're mounted. The difference is that you get many more aggressive dragons when you get the quest than they normally fly on the area.

3. Story telling progression quests. Same zone, once you completed a certain long questline, you participate in a storytelling event in a part of that zone. From that moment on, that particular side of the zone changes for you.

4. Raid bosses. Blue dragonflight dragons (the time shifters) create paralel realities. You're in the same place with the rest of the raid and you're not. The transition is seamless, no loading screens etc. It's like putting a filter in front of your eyes and suddenly you can see the shadows but not part of the real world any more (hope that made sense).

Anyway, they use this in various spots. It's a really storytelling enchancing mechanism. To whoever said that it's not the same with LOTRO starting area, he is right, it's not. LOTRO starting area is cut off from the rest of the world. In this case we're talking about a transition that is happening in and out of in real time, sometimes having temporary effect on the character, sometimes a more permanent effect.

Lets hope that other storytelling MMOs pick up this technique, because it does enchance the experience and the illusion of playing in a changing world. To whoever brought the sandbox argument into the thread, get a grip with reality. This is not a sandbox game, nor it was ever meant to be, why you're blaming an apple for not being an orange is beyond me. For those more akin to enjoy a good story, I think they will like the use of this particular technology.

Sounds like a really cool novelty to me. So far I havent seen something like that, and it sounds like a cool thing, when your actions really have effects on the world. I mean, isnt that what makes so many MMO quest lines dull, that you defeat the uber boss X and his minions and 1 minute later he still roams the world as if nothing happend? Sure, it cant be changed in every detail, but if some central story lines are changing the world like this, and you still share the world with others, it sounds like a good concept to me. I still dont play WOW, but the idea is good nevertheless.

Originally posted by UnSub

There are a couple of reasons for this.

One is development time / resources - it might be a lot easier to change something before launch than after it due to certain other systems not being fixed / linked by that point.

Secondly is that there are always some players who like something that you don't, so what you call a "bad idea" is awesome to them. They post on the forums too.

Thirdly is that the devs are more likely to create new content than review old content, because creating new content is more exciting for them and also for players.

Fourthly it might be that the devs have no idea about how to easily fix one problematic system so that it works. They may want more data or time for evaluation before making a decision. And, even then, there is no guarantee that the fix will work as intended.

Fifthly players appear to be a lot more hysterical about any changes, so it could be easier to keep a system with a few known problems than implement a fix that create a whole raft of new problems.

Finally, change takes time. It could be that a change is planned for a certain system but it takes a few months to get developed, tested and launched. However, players complain that something isn't being looked at, or is taking too long if they know it is.

This may be so, but it would be a very sad reality, if so. :(

Following the MMO trend we all speculate how the Next Gen MMO would be, and sure we all have our different theories.

One thing I see definitely forming as a defining difference is the way how classes, skills and combat works. Games like AoC and some of the WAR classes sure were a good start, and recently playing the new LOTRO classes Warden and Runekeeper also were good eye-openers.

The old way to make classes is what I call the EQ/WOW type of combat. You have a list of skills you click, usually your three of four main skills, like the healer who has a heal over time, a group heal and a powerful single heal. Or the tank who has a skill to hold aggro and a few damage doers. Usually after a short time you can hack those things quite mindlessly down. Sure some classes are simpler than others, but I am sure you get the drift.

Now if you played complex combat classes like the Swordmaster of WAR or the LOTRO Warden, you see where combat is going to in the future, or rather where it should go.

Especially my experience with Warden was very delightful, and that notion is shared with many I spoke to in LOTRO. The warden is played via combos, so called gambits. You have a selection of basic attacks, and you combine them to create different short lasting effects, like doing more damage, or raising defence, or healing yourself a bit. Now the interesting thing is, you really start to focus much more in the combat, it feels much more responsive. You follow the ongoing combat and can plan different strategies. For instance, if you catch add, you can focus on doing more damage, hoping to bring them down before they kill you; or you may swap to defensive combos hoping to outlast them instead. There are just more possibilities, and the same goes with the Runekeeper, who has both healing and different ways to build up damage.

With both new LOTRO classes you really think and plan during the combat, you take chances and try out different approaches within each combat, instead of following the same, dull way everytime over. They are two really good classes and show the way class and combat design is going to in the future. I am sure that simplistic ever-the-same combat of the EQ/WOW era will soon be the past. Games still struggle for this new concept and it surely will develop further, but I find those new combat systems a real good step ahead. Its one of those things I really missed when I left AoC and WAR behind, and I am sure those ideas will a part how Next Gen MMOs are defined.

WOW is not my kind of game, but anyone who says WOW hasnt brought a ton of changes to the MMO genre is simply fooling himself. You may really make a difference between "changes I like" and "changes which became influental".

The genius of the Blizzard devs is not inventing everything new, but perfecting things and making them popular. They didnt invent radar or symbols over quest givers head, but they caused those things to become standard in most MMOs. Is just as it IS. Now you are free to hate those changes, but saying they dont exist is like covering your eyes with your hands and yelling "you cant see me".

Yelling someone down because he is 18 and WOW his frist MMO is plain dumb. If experience would make humans wiser we would have a gerontocracy and live in paradise by now.

I really would like to know what this phasing exactly is? Can someone describe it to me please?

It's something that really strikes me as an oddity in MMOs. You know, one of the most fundamental problems I have with MMOs is how totally narrow minded and inflexible the MMO developers are. There are two different situations I guess we all have seen.

1) Some parts of the game design were bad ideas right away:

Thats the situation you have when a game is new. Now ok, no matter how clever you are, no matter how thoughtful you plan as a dev, when a game gets live some of your wonderful plans wont function as planned. Thats normal, and I dont expect a MMO to launch and everything works as intended. Thats just not possible. Now the surprising thing is not that some things work different in reality, the surprising thing is, that devs dont adapt. Its like those cannonball decisions: one shot you dont alter the course. I dont know, is it pride or arrogance or what is it?

Take WAR. The concepts we read about and seen in the video podcasts sounded well enough, but in reality we all learned, some didnt work as intended, or some did have side effects. Or, as often is the case, two good ideas put together created some dynamics which resulted in something bad for whatever reason. Now the strange thing is, among the players the things not working become apparent relatively quick. But often it takes ages for the devs to admit and to really work on it. Sometimes it takes a year or more as in the case of Vanguard.
 

2) The game/playerbase changes but devs dont adapt the game

This is less often seen and discussed about. Examples are: both in LOTRO and WAR in some areas there are incredibly high respawn rates. Now those rates were ok, when in these zones the population was high. But for many reason some zones are not as much played, espcially with addons, content updates and the like. I just had the same experience with uber respawn rates in a LOTRO zone. Once it was quite crowded, and the high respawn rate was necessary. Now with usually 2 or 3 ppl in the zone, its quite a nuisance.

Or the LOTRO Books 9-15. Once they were the endgame replacement. All those book quests are long and large and for the former level cap 50. When the level cap still was 50 it was easy to get people for those demanding quests. Some are really tough and need a full group. Now with Moria and levelcap 60 its almost impossible to get enough people for some of the quests, since the situation is entirely different since the expansion came. I am sure you know plenty similar experiences with MMOs who would need to adapt to the changed situation, but for some reason the devs dont.

It really strikes me as a big oddity and mystery why MMO devs seem to be totally resilient to apply any changes everyone else seems to see? It's like, once we designed the game in this way its like set in stone. Why this amount of inflexibiliy?

Yeah you can, but 1) there is little need since the quests give all the gear you ever need, and 2) there really is little useful to spent it on. But technically you will carry tons and tons of gold. I just have no idea what to spent it for.

My account just ran out when the 30 days period ended, and caught me unawares and not having intended to quit. But since I wasnt too thrilled I didnt subscribe back then, and with each weeks passing I feel like missing it less and less to a degree it feels like nothing I ever player or wanted to play atm. I am having a really good time with the Moria addon in LOTRO, so that adds to making my disinclined to resub. I kinda wait for the BIG change, the new classes and MAYBE  somewhere in 2009 I may try it out again. Only when I hear many good news.

In the five years and 2 dozen MMOs I know the best quests are the LOTRO Books, especially everything after Book IX. They are really epic, make me feel like a hero and have this feeling like being in a movie. LOTRO has great moments in some quests and the Book quests IX and following are really great moments. My really personal fav.

Also the Trials of Obi-Wan from the Mustafar expansion from SWG.

Originally posted by Wharmaster

 This is the kind of thing they are shooting for with SWTOR, actually.

Thats what I hope and think too.

*Some* of the moments in LOTRO make you feel like a background hero, espeically the moments in the Books, when the main story is moved on. I just was very moved when I was invited to that moment when the Fellowship of the nine was leaving Rivendell, and you kinda work in the background keeping their back free. There are nice moments which really made me feel like a hero in LOTRO in those Book-quests, which were well directed, almost like a movie.

Then there is the uniqueness of City of Heroes. While the game itself isnt so thrilling, you look like nobody else, which also has some heroic qualities.

Good question. So far both look very interesting and promising. In the end the details may decide. I am all over the fence atm.

I think there are some truths in it, but also a part the author didnt realize.

One of the biggest oddities you notice as a MMO vet when entering WAR is the almost complete and utter silence in the chat channels. Now you may tell me whatever you like about the reasons, but for me it indicates something is massively wrong in this game. Period.

One thing sure is the chat system isnt really well designed. You cant set region channels like guild and group, you always have to type /1 and it isnt really highlighted, so I am sure there are many MMO noobs who just dont know.

Second, I am still deeply convinced the overdid the "helping hands" idea. Open groups, PQ's, the entire lot of things which make it "easy" to find something to do totally takes away the need to cooperate, to talk, to go to a public channel and ask anything. WAR holds you hand - but way to firmly. People just dont feel motivated to really explore the wilderness or to communicate. Its a well managed entertainment park where you are meticiously led from entertainment highlight A to highlight B asf. With such a tigh hand holding ppl just have no sense for making things by themselves, taking the initiative.

There is no reason to roam free and no real reward for doing so. People are led. They meant well, but sometimes good intentions still lead to bad results.

A vast world like VG or SWG would be ideal, yes. But even a good compromise like LOTRO would be good. With the extended zones even with zoning I never felt confined like I did in WAR or AoC. Its by and large not so much a matter of the actual size but of the design and placement. The LOTRO zones feel considerably larger because whoever designed those zones was a master of placement, visual composition and design. In many ways.

Take the Old Forest. In real its relatively small, but with the visual design, when you first enter it and get lost in it, it feels like and endless, giant maze of a forest. I found it a bit a letdown they now added a larger map to that place. But still, you can do a lot if you know about zone design to make it not to make people feel confined even though the zones are in real not that big. Riding all over LOTRO from Forochel Bay to the Gate of Moria takes LONG, even tho LOTRO world isnt endless open. But it strikes me as example for a good compromise.

The theme park hook nosing of WAR added a LOT to make the small zones feel considerably smaller than they were, similar AoC.

I think they look good. My only gripe is the human models, but given the early stage we can hope there is still room for improvement. Good pics.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I don't think Mythics silence can be interpreted as some great conspiracy, they were taking their time to capture the data and work on resolving the problem. 

No reason for hysterics, they are addressing the issue in a timely manner.  Not everything requires the developer to fall on their sword.

 

True, tho at some point ppl are so bored of games, the idea of devs jumping into swords is the only entertainment one can hope for. ;) Not that this is the case with WAR yet. Nor hopefully ever, but I can understand sometimes this is the case. When you watch Americal Idol and its EU couterparts you realize we didnt *really* evolve since the Colosseum had "Christians to the Lions" on schedule. Most enjoy the failure of games more than games themselves. And tbh, sometimes I too have evil dreams of what happend to the Dark and Light devs and to Brad McQuaid....

I am just a simple human! =P

Sorry but thats balderdash. I posted enough negative things about WAR without getting locked or what.