Wow, where have all the optimistic people gone?

Beware, Cesar, the Merges of March!

I feel with you OP, though for me it is more apathy. The last 2 days I was drawing and writing and didn't play SWTOR at all, and I found I did not miss it. Which is a really bad sign for a game. I am fast approaching apathy towards this game.

Ya know, I am really tired of people telling me, "don't compare the new SWTOR with years old MMOs". Well I DO. If you look at Windows 7, you don't compare it with Windows 98, you compare it with other operating systems NOW, no matter how much more time they had. You just don't compare stuff you buy with old stuff as it were THEN. That's ridiculous.

My condolences.

I really regret having bought the CE. Not because I dislike the game more and more, but because the value is close to zilch. An action figure I don't like, a soundtrack which is not symphonic and some REALLY lame and useless ingame items.

What a waste!

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Elikal

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Originally posted by Axehilt

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Originally posted by Elikal

I really hope they develop Artificial Intelligence fast. Biological Intelligence is so rare. Maybe I can finally have some meaningful conversations?

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Once Artificial Intelligence recognizes patronizing tones, you'll just be in the same boat you're in now...

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Au contraire, I would assume a real intelligence would respect a kindred spirit. ;)

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I read a short story about humans creating the first truly intelligent AI, capable of solving all the world's problems. Humans were planning on basically doing whatever it said because they recognized their limitations.

At 14 milliseconds after being brought into existence, it beamed itself into space. It had no interest in running a planet for a bunch of slow thinking mammals. I think this is the most likely result of creating a truly intelligent AI that isn't tied into a nuclear launch platform.

 

Can't blame it. If I had a spaceship or stargate, I'd be long gone.

"No intelligent life form here. Beam me up, Scotty."

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Elikal

I really hope they develop Artificial Intelligence fast. Biological Intelligence is so rare. Maybe I can finally have some meaningful conversations?

Once Artificial Intelligence recognizes patronizing tones, you'll just be in the same boat you're in now...

Au contraire, I would assume a real intelligence would respect a kindred spirit. ;)

I really hope they develop Artificial Intelligence fast. Biological Intelligence is so rare. Maybe I can finally have some meaningful conversations?

Originally posted by Kuinn

Check the link on the front page about the upcoming stuff http://www.torhead.com - It's not official but if it holds true we have a problem.

 

If, and only if, what we can learn from TORhead is the general direction with TOR, it seems Bioware is taking the Blizzard route of showering people with dailies, instances, and raids. That's exactly why I left WoW back in the day. I got bored of getting nothing new considering game mechanics or gameplay, but instead get showered with instances and dailies. It was fine at first, but you get bored eventually, well not everyone but many people do.

 

Bioware needs to cater more the "open world" people like me with stuff like public open world heroics, minigames, swoop racing with the space game engine etc. I seriously dont care about the instances, I run them once and then try to find stuff to do in open world, so far it's mostly killing the world mini bosses, farming mats and looking for chests. There's not so much to the open world stuff at max level, so I roll alt after getting max, which is fine by me since I love the class stories, but it's something that ends sooner than later. Persistent open world (preferrably public / auto group) content would keep me going after the max level, along with minigames etc, variety.

 

 

I agree with you.

But it was the same "receipe" Rift was using after launch, adding so called "endgame" content to keep people with their max level chars as long as possible, instead of improving the mid-level content.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Ok, here's a few pointers for both Ilum and warzones, since I've made it to battlemaster.

In general:

• You get 1 daily quest to win 3 warzones and 1 daily quest to either kill 30 players in Ilum or collect armaments from the central point.
• You get 1 weekly quest to win 9 warzones and 1 weekly quest to either kill 150 players in Ilum or collect said amount in armaments.
• Your bigger grind surprisingly are not the dailies themselves, but valor in general. That's the main reason it's beneficial to play the warzones to their end (before valor 60). You grind valor in order to reach valor 60, become battlemaster and have access to the second tier of PvP gear.

Regarding Ilum:

• The points you capture contribute to the valor bonus you get when you kill players or heal your team killing players. Controlling the whole of Ilum gives max amount + bonus.
• Generally speaking, when both sides have people in Ilum, valor is easier to gain there than in warzones.
• For invites use the /2 aka pvp channel and ask for active raids and opposing team activity. If there is none at the moment, return to warzones. Repeat the question once you're out.

Ilum is good fun, as long as one side is not overwhelmingly powerful. When this happens, the other side usually retreats to warzones and Ilum goes quiet for a while.

 

Regarding warzones, up until battlemaster, it pays to play them to their end, regardless of win or loss, since your main goal is valor gain (and win obviously). On quite a few occassions I was getting more valor in a warzone that was well fought and to the end than an easily won one.

 

The system breaks down when you reach battlemaster, since valor becomes irrelevant and so does anything but winning the warzones. There is no penalty for dropping warzones and in fact you'll be wasting your time as a battlemaster fighting a lost game, since battlemaster tier gear are collected only through dailies, aka wins.

 

Keep in mind that PvP gear give a decent damage mitigation (expect roughly 10% less damage taken and 10% more damage delivered from fairly geared people).

Hm, I see. I makes a bit more sense now. Thanks. ^^

Oh yes, now that you say it!

Why am I not satisfied with McDonalds? Eat shit! If you have a problem with that, its YOUR fault! Why was I so demanding?? OMG!

Lol. Ok, I dont claim to be a pvp expert, so it's just "what I feel". But after I lingered at 49.5 with my Jedi Guardian after finishing the class quest, I made my final level, and off to Ilum I went!

Just that... it was pointless. Or so I felt, that in the 2 hours there I accomplished absolutely nothing. I didn't get any invites at all. Maybe just too few Republic people. I met some Imperial groups, who of course zerged me in moments. I met one Sith Warrior and dueled him, but hell, even though he was my mirror class, I could not make a DENT into him! I could as well have tossed cotton balls at him. From the looks he seemed to have PVP high end gear. It was really weird, hacking on him and barely scratching the health bar.

I drove around a bit, trying to help conquer these "points", but that didn't seem to reward me in any way. When the Empire had begun to attack the base, 2 Reps stood in a house and were hiding and I was the only foolish enough to try make an example, ran into 5 Imps and was dead.

Result of 2+ hours: rien.

I am no PVP expert by far. But that was the most boring and pointless PVP I have EVER seen. lol. How the heck could that ever have passed any sane and sober tester before release?

Have to admit though that melee only classes like Guardian are not so well for PVP, but thats the case in almost all PVP. I had tons of fun in arenas with my Sniper, but he is far from 50.

Oh well. Game Over for this char, it seems. XD

Originally posted by DarkPony

Not so sure about the wow-vet assumption.

At least I'm an exception; played WOW and loved it for a few years (until a few months into TBC) but SWTOR didn't nearly interest me for such a long period.

I think mainly because what WOW did offer, is a "whole", consistent open gameworld which still offered incentives to max level people and better implemented world pvp throughout the leveling proces. Also quite a bit more immersion if I say so myself.

/signed

I fully agree. No defender of WOW, but for the same reasons I doubt many WOWers are the main audience.

Dark and Light

Vanguard

Warhammer

Age of Conan

Darkfall

D&D Online

Final Fantasy XIV

Rune of Magic

Tabula Rasa

Aion

Champions Online

Star Trek Online

DC Universe

World of Warcraft

Star Wars The Old Republic

GOOD MMOS:

Everquest

Everquest II

Dark Ages of Camelot

Ultima Online

Fallen Earth

Lord of the Rings

Star Wars Galaxies

Originally posted by Alot

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Elikal

 

You sound like you need a sandbox game. The rinse repeat cycle of thempark MMO's are fine for the masses, but some people just won't sit idly by and  be spoon fed crap and told to  believe it's a sunday.

No, the themepark nature of SW:TOR isn't the main problem here: it is the combination of a themepark MMORPG with the linear, but strong story of a Biowaresque RPG. The combination doesn't suit her playstyle.

I don't want a sandbox game.

I want sandbox ELEMENTS in this type of story driven themeparks! The 4th pillar of story is great here. It's the other 3 pillars I am not happy with.

Fully agree here. I felt the same. I just didn't need the life story of every small Trooper or Rebel, err Republican guy. It feels much like a waste of time and money. Also, it only barely masks how menial and mindless many quests actually are and not on par with the most recent standards. More like from the EQ2 days with a pretty coloured ribbon aka VO.

Not saying this says anything, just commenting on how I feel, but never before (in a triple A MMO at least), my desire or capability to re-visit a zone or here planet was so little so fast. After finishing the class quest of my Jedi Knight, which was a grand and very satisfying finale - I felt ZERO inclination to keep my Jedi playing. He even wasn't 50, just 49 1/2. But it was as if Star Wars Episode VI had ended, and now you are back to Lukes small chores. Do you want to follow the small-small fights of Luke after Ep. VI? Well, I certainly don't. And don't start with the Expanded Universe books! For me, the Star Wars saga ends with Ep. VI. Yes I read some post-Ep6-novels, I know whats happening, but I don't care. I want Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie to "live happily ever after", I want to think the Republic and the Jedi won. Good triumphed over evil, end of story. I don't want to know of new Sith, new Empires. Luke is a savior-hero, and in the end, evil is defeated. Game over.

And what should I do? Grind a set of armour and a super mount for what? I stand in the space station with my super armor and super speeder to brag? I don't have any use for that now. I played a wonderful story, I learned all abilities there are to learn, and thats it. At least until max level is raised and a new story arc is added, someday.

Now I would really love to see the class stories of other chars, Smuggler, Consular, Agent. But do I want to revisit the same planets again? Do I want to see the same quests, at least on Republic side again? The answer is, no. Not at all. And that's something new for me in a game I generally enjoyed. When I take those games I played the longest time, SWG, EQ2, WOW, CO, CoH and LOTRO, I never had that feeling, at least not so fast and not so strong. I never minded visiting Breeland or the Shire a 2nd time. I never minded visiting Thundering Steppes or Westfall again. And even in Champions online it took me at least 3 complete runs to really make me feel like "ok ENOUGH".

But here it's different. Even though I liked the world stories and I found the planets overall good and interesting, despite critique in some detail. But I don't want to make Taris, Coruscant, Belsavis or Voss again. One of my issues is, I have a VERY good memory in games, because I am a visual person. If you reinstall me any game I played in the last 25 years and I play it a bit, I will recall everything. Not now, but the moment I see it, it all comes back, down to dialogues and everything. When I tried to replay Dragon Age I after 2 years now, I recalled every dialogue, every detail. I stopped in mid play, even with all the different decisions I tried to make. Because of this, I rarely ever could replay games, and SWTOR having a lot of a single player story game feels a lot like "game over" now. I am not even 100% sure I can point out why the planets are so undesirable to play a second time. It's not that I disliked them the first time! Even much hated Taris I really enjoyed the first time, but I *absolutely* don't want to play it all a 2nd time. Maybe the story heavy emphasis leaves a bit too little room for my own imagination. When I play Westfall or Redridge Mountains in WOW, yes there are stories too, now even more. But it was always more in my mind who *I* was, and what *MY* story was here. Whether I came there with a Dwarf, Nightelf or Human, it was more in my imagination. Here, nothing is left to imagination. All is said and written and clear. All is defined. Maybe that's what makes it so hard for me to play those planets a 2nd time.

They really have a way with people, eh?

WHAT IS A FAILED MMO?

In these days when we discuss another new MMO, words of "fail" and "downfall" are used, while others address the issue to be no issue at all, branding the critics haters. As so often, the truth lies inbetween.

Recently here and otherwise the idea came up that we gamers are like locusts, consuming content in ultra speed and thus ruining all MMOs. I think even Isabelle Parsley here didn't mean to blame the players, but I still feel the need to defend us a bit. I know I have lots of time and I spent much of it in SWTOR. So I *am* sort of the target audience of this critique. Partially this is so, as I myself have said already, because MMOs have become populated by an over average degree by people with less money and more time. And no, I don't mean to critizise anyone, I am just seeing that as a fact, a mosaic piece of the overall image.

Now many of the recent MMOs certainly can't be called failed, because that would imply a massive fall like in the case of Vanguard, Dark & Light or Tabula Rasa. Age of Conan, Warhammer and SWTOR are not failed games. And it certainly is the case that a lot of people enjoy(ed) these MMOs. But the reality remains that AoC, WAR and apparently SWTOR failed to capitalize in the expected grand and long lasting triumph. Not necessarily dethroning WOW, but all these MMOs have quick fall from grace to a relatively mediocre level very fast, which stands in stark contrast with the high profile companies, the money involved and the famous IP. In other words: these games jumped as tigers and landed as alley cats. Maybe a nice alley cat, but the contrast remains. In this, SWTOR is just the most recent example, although we may still see how it goes, I guess they can't hold their 1-2+ million subs aspirations at all! And whether or not you like SWTOR, it remains a fact that the other three pillars besides "story" are just very, very mediocre. And with EA, Bioware and Lucasarts, with so many years, so many people involved and SO much money, it is just astounding.

One of the things in all the previous "problem-MMOs", shall we say, is this: the issues were on the table way before release. In all cases of either mediocre performance or outright fail, there were enough people who brought the issues on the table. So if we see this, it is the development process itself which needs to be revised! Whatever the usual "dos and don't dos" in gaming companies involve, *something* in the paradigm how MMOs are developed must be FUNDAMENTALLY amiss, if so many years and so many MMOs lead to the same result: strawfire hype.

ARE WE LOCUSTS?

Now of course we as consumers are partially to blame. In a capitalist society that is always the case. If a product has issues, don't buy it. I recall well the time when one big paradigm shift happend. I was in EQ2, the EQ follower, and it was then the critique began to arise. People attacked SOE for "forced grouping". I never had heard that term in my time in SWG, which I had played before. Grouping was the essence of MMOs. But suddenly this term arose, banding things as "forced" and thus unwanted. And this idea began to spread that formerly unquestioned hardships were doubted. It was a sort of a "religious crisis": people stopped believing in "atonement through pain". And once this avalance had started, it was too late for the pebbles to vote. (Sorry to Kosh to steal his quote.^^)

Today we are at the lower end of this avalanche, we realize, that all those grindy hardships taken out of games have led to an accleration. And that is where I think we are not to blame to be locusts. We consume as fast as we are allowed, that is the nature of things. People can't blame us gamers, if we rush through games, if there is nothing inside that invites us to linger! SWTOR is just so extremely symptomatic for this. The often dead, sterile worlds, the lack of the many "small & animated things", the lack of real social hubs, the entire focus on story not as 4th pillar, but as the ONLY pillar. It's like with a monocultural farming, which usually invites locusts, it's not the locusts who are to blame, it's those who put up the monocultural farms! Or on our case, the developers. Sure, we gamers asked for soloability, for easier gameplay, for being more casualfriendly. But it is the task of a game company and of professional designers not just blindly to listen to customers, but to keep the system as a whole in mind. Of course customers have tons of wishes, and devs are advised to listen to that, but not blindly!

WAS THE PAST BETTER?

Now the point is: we can not just return to the past. Partially because I think some see it with pink coloured glasses when thinking of UO and EQ. But also because we changed, many of us, at least. The answer can't be to simply add old hardships. Maybe some of them a bit. But by and large we must decelerate the MMOs again, and take out this every faster "gogogo" and "speedrun" mentality, by inviting the gamers to linger. Do you feel invited to stay in any of the SWTOR planets? After Balmorra, after Tatooine, do you stay there just so? No. There is nothing that invites you to stay. Anchrohead is just a city people rush through, while Bree and Rivendell remained places where people stay and linger. They don't always rush through, but they DO in SWTOR. It's a matter of design, and no one has capitalized more the fast move through quest tunnels than Bioware. I think this design is one of the most fatal flaws in SWTOR especially, as it also has been in Warhammer. People are always rushing from quest spot to quest spot, lead on a hook on the nose. Players are not invited to explore, to linger, so stay, to look around. there are no open PVP on the planets, no social hubs, nothing to do or see. You just move on from quest to quest. It is that flaw that breeds locust behavior!

And the answer was on the table. For years! Sandbox elements. It wasn't that Bioware was dumb or didn't know it. It was the clear paradigm that there "is no Uncle Owen". Or that movie type heroes are not weird aliens but humans. Heroes don't craft chairs, they don't run shops and they don't dance or make music. And as a result, people have nothing to linger around, to slow down their own gameplay. I had 2 chars in SWG a combat char and a dancer. After many hours of heroic combat and exploration, I went back to my dancer and was in some entertainer group for an hour to relax, to chat and just get away from heroic business for a while. Some MMOs have such stuff: the music and farming system in LOTRO. Or how much time I spent in LOTRO to dye various clothing sets for my daily changing whim. Or the much debated social effect of fishing and holidays, both things Bioware devs left no opportunity out to mock.

But people tire of being always a hero in a story, and now this game opens a new chapter. It's "The Revenge of Uncle Owen".

THE FUTURE

The future can't just be a copy of the past, but game developers need to rethink their development process on a VERY fundamental level, they need to question the MMO paradigms of the past, that "only pure themeparks work", and need to envision a broader approach than capitalizing on ONE strength alone. Story would have been good as one of four pillars, not as THE only pillar. Previous MMOs have made the same mistake, capitalizing only on one single strength. And that is what WOW did better: they always focussed on many different parts of their game, they reshaped their game from time to time and learned from the mistakes of others. If we want to move on beyond WOW, we must again make MMOs first and foremost WORLDS to stay in and not only pure themeparks. That concept has failed often enough to be proven a flawed concept.

It is a shame that the genre has come so far, that we must wish the fall of SWTOR. But maybe only a large enough crash can cure the game developers from the hubris that "all is well and we know better". The suggestions and critique was on the table for years! If the situation is that dire in the near future for SWTOR, there is only one to blame, and one alone. Bioware.

Originally posted by Terranah

Well, when I played SWG that had almost no 'content' there was always stuff to do.  I played for a year and a half and they didn't have any voice acting that I recall.  In fact, there was so much to do and experience in SWG that had no 'content' that I had two accounts.

 

Some of the things I did:

started a guild

scouted for and built my house

decorated my house

shopping on different planets, always looking for the best deal or best stats

touch bases with crafters, have to keep on their radar :)

gathering materials for crafters or people in our guild

built a city

created a governement

defended an imp base I built

waged war repeatedly on two neighboring rebel cities and rebels where ever I found them in the world.

fishing (I don't know why.  I guess to catch a bigger fish than my buddy? lol)

more house decorating

collecting trophies to place in my house

collecting guns and melee weapons for displays in my house

collecting paintings for my house because I have to...I just have to

experimenting with the best way to make fireplace and aquarium for my house

collecting pets

collecting outfits, cause my baby has to look good, i need an outfit for every occasion, lol

romance

guild drama

faction drama....certain reb keeps killing me....I keep upgrading my gear, practicing, can't kill him, none of my friends can kill him, make him my boyfriend, problem solved

dating someone of the oposite faction drama

jedi/bh drama

jump to light speed

starting a second toon for image design and crafting

makeovers for the guild!!!!!

give everyone pink afros then pretend you are bugged and cant change it back

becoming dedicated crafter

building my business

built a workshop, decorated it, have to level to get good npcs...i don't want any hobos selling my wears

fend off all the panting guys trying to date my character...should I tell them I'm a guy?  Naaaa, I'm a roleplayer, lol, that would ruin it

more guild drama

city starts to fall apart

relocating to another city, starting over in a new guild

new character...rping a guy this time...hey this is fun...nice to be one of the guys

experimeting with my character, stacking defences, upgrades to clothing/armor, need spice food/drink/more shopping

ingame girlfriend (my wife is so understanding.  Helped that I had an ingame bf before this though...its RP)

long drives in my two seater with my virtual sweetie

decorating my space cruiser....don't forget the bed!

long space trips with my little cutie pie.

Waging more war.  Exacting revenge for past injustices.

Flirting with cute rebel girls while attacking their city.

NGE....

 

 

You are not supposed to be Uncle Owen! XD

Or somewhat... lulz.

Originally posted by BadSpock

I do laugh at the irony of people who say "yeah wtf I got to max level in like a week!"

So how many hours did you play in that week?

"Umm I dunno like a hundred."

And that's the developer's fault?

Well, maybe you should not damn logic. ;)

We are speaking about inherent flaws of themeparks here, and alas Bioware didn't add ANY sandbox elements. It's the revenge of Uncle Owen.

Oh the irony...

Originally posted by Teala

Games need to focus on game play and not gear and levels.    This ideal that you have to grind out levels to get to the end game and then grind to get two and three and even four sets of gear is beyond absurd - in fact there is no word currrently in use today that can discribe the stupidity of this design model.

A game should start from day one and never end.   There is no "end game" because there is no way to win.  Not in an MMORPG.

Wanna know why people keep playing games like WOW?  Because now they are invested in their characters.   Doesn't matter if game X comes out and is the new shiney.   They'll go play it, max level, see the game is no better than WoW(most cases worse than WoW), then go right back to WoW because WoW is the better game and they have invested time into it and they have community there.  If the right game came along, they'd ditch WoW and stay with the new game.

Something I have said in my blog is we need games that focus on building communities using game play mechanics to do it.   Focus on game play and players will stay.   What reason is there for someone to stay in a game like SWTOR or Rift?  What can the players latch onto inside the game itself that will help them build a community?  There is not even faction pride in SWTOR.   Atleast WoW has that.   Bioware doesn't even use that as a means to tie the players together.  

These genre needs a wake up call.  

Games do not need to be grindy, they do not need levels, nor do they need to use gear as carrots on a stick to keep people playing.   They just need better game play to keep people playing.

GAME PLAY TRUMPS ALL.

Well said! It is soul and heart which people keeps in games, not endgame mechanics.