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Originally posted by BadgerSmaker

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Originally posted by Wildcat84

Badger actually asked them to do this and they wouldn't for whatever reason.
 

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Hey Wildcat, what brings you here?  Nice to hear from you again.
The SWG Veteran Keymap concept was well received by the Devs.  I hope they put something like this in for the next veteran trial.
Welcome back to SWG, blueshadow.  Glad to hear you are enjoying it.  You can switch to auto-aim by pressing Y if you get tired of the Manual Aim system.

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I think they've given up on the idea of any meaningful numbers of us ever coming back, which is why they've never done this.

Besides, with TOR's impending release, which is certainly coming in 2010, I don't think it matters anyway, they closed down half the game just yesterday.

But it was a colossal blunder to make it possible to (mostly) use the CU era style UI but not have a preset for it in the game before offering the FIRST of the vet trials. A huge percentage of those who bothered to log in had to have had that "WTF IS THIS CRAP?!" reaction to the controls and immediately logged off and deleted the client. It is so bad that you can't even move your avatar around without re learning everything.

When I was still playing, I had an elaborate setup of UI mods (Pre-CU style icons and HAM bars) and key-mapped macros to make the UI mostly work the way I wanted it to. That was the work of hours to get right, and to me, isn't worth the effort to re-do just for the sake of doing another trial, when I know I'll never resubscribe anyway.

The big problem of the NGE aside, SOE over the years has failed to pay attention to a lot of LITTLE problems like this which has cost them big time. That is how you know that the failure of management that caused the NGE mistake to begin with is still alive and well at SOE.

If you like the game, you like the game. I have no problem with that.

But the problem SOE has is that the vast majority of the pre-NGE player base views the NGE as a steaming pile of poo with a SWG skin, and all the work done to it since release to amount to more layers of lipstick on the pig.

Fact of the matter is the NGE destroyed not only the viability of SWG but it was a triple incap and deathblow to the reputation of SOE. Or was TCG it's deathblow?

I ceased to play NGE after it became obvious that they were never going to make it any better than it was, and certainly didn't want to hear from anyone who was telling them what they needed to do. To me, I can't go "home" again, despite the fact that my server (Bloodfin) is still there, the community that made it what it was largely isn't.

I have logged in for most of the trials but didn't even bother the last time. I'd deleted my client install and thus lost the mods and macros I had installed to make the UI semi functional, and couldn't be bothered to re-do them. The default client setup is atrociously bad and unplayable. The controls CAN be set back to pseudo-Pre NGE but not without work.

The fact that the Devs won't budge on this, make a "Pre NGE" keymap that you can select easily, nor will they dump completely clicky combat shows that they will not do anything, even if it's clearly for the good of the game, even if it would help retain subscribers if it means bruising their ego.

Badger actually asked them to do this and they wouldn't for whatever reason.

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Originally posted by Malickie

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Originally posted by Wildcat84

The only reason why NGE still has any subscribers at all is because it's the only Star Wars MMO. That will no longer be the case in the next few months. Next to TOR, NGE will look old, obsolete, and it's combat system likely STILL won't work.

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I don't disagree with anything except this point, I highly doubt it's simply the Star Wars IP that keeps people playing. I'd look more at the variety in game-play styles, decent crafting (albeit not as important as it once was). Social avenues of advancement (non-combat). As well as flight and pseudo twitch or turned base combat. The sandbox elements are probabaly up there in reasons as well. Of course the IP would stack up too, you can't ignore the lack of variety in most games on the market.

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The ironic thing is, is that the reasons you list are things the NGE was designed to eliminate, that remain more or less because they never got around to eliminating them.

I quite agree though that the only redeeming qualities remaining in the game are the last vestiges of Pre-CU that do remain. I hung around for the space game as well for some time. But they've done next to nothing to support that or the other remaining Pre-CU elements since the NGE.

SOE has made it perfectly clear that they do not believe in sandbox games, their Devs that had expertise in them left years ago, so I wouldn't hold my breath expecting SOE to realize that the few remaining sandbox elements is the only thing retaining players and to properly support them.

You know, back when they made the NGE announcement, we told them that it wouldn't work, it wouldn't attract new players or retain existing ones. They really needed to close these servers years ago, and frankly, they don't need all of the remaining 13 servers either except for the fact that the combat engine is so flawed that it requires thin populations to semi function.

I do feel sorry for those who built communities on the now closed servers.

This isn't a joke, right, they actually went LIVE with this?!

Who asked them for zombies?

Personally I can't see NGE surviving the launch of TOR. Both shoes have dropped recently, the first being the closure of half the servers, the second being the impending TOR beta. The next thud will be the corpse of the NGE hitting the floor for the last time.

The only reason why NGE still has any subscribers at all is because it's the only Star Wars MMO. That will no longer be the case in the next few months. Next to TOR, NGE will look old, obsolete, and it's combat system likely STILL won't work.

I just can't see it competing unless a major investment in graphics upgrades and engine improvements are made. And that's just to modernize the NGE as is, which has already been rejected by 90% of those who played Pre-NGE.

Within days to weeks after TOR there simply won't be enough subscribers left to pay the expenses and upkeep. SOE may hang on and hope that people don't like TOR and come back, but I don't think that they will come back.

And it may not be up to SOE, LEC might mandate the shutdown of NGE with the TOR launch, not because NGE will compete with TOR (TOR will launch with hundreds of thousands of subscribers at least, many times what the NGE has) but to send the NGE and the bad blood and feelings down the memory hole. If you were LEC, would you want it around? Frankly, I think the only reason why NGE got a reprieve to hang around this long was because of TOR.

I'm looking forward to TOR, and am signed up for the beta. While I don't expect it to be Pre-CU (EVE satisfies my sandbox cravings anyway) I am a huge fan of Bioware.

Bioware does not make bad games.

I'd ask Smedley what brand of deodorant he uses that's good enough to mask the smell of sulfur.

It costs very little to have employees troll message boards.

IMHO, there are SOE trolls who deliberately disrupt threads here to give the mods any excuse to lock/delete them, like what was done with the class action suit one.

Yet the mods will spend weeks culling flames from the "it's all your fault players" pro-SOE troll thread without locking it.

One area where SOE has been unflinchingly consistent is in their terrible customer service.

Attributing any sort of conspiratorial "plan" to SOE that they actually got around to executing would be to give those idiots far more credit than they deserve :)

I don't think they are capable of planning a conspiracy to get themselves out of a wet paper bag, much less executing it.

What they ARE good at are bully tactics and underhandedness. Such as the shills who troll here.

Pulling off a conspiracy takes brains and talent. Bullying takes no brains or talent.

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Originally posted by BaronJuJu
"A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone."

Pretty much all encompassing as to who can be/post here.

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You will NEVER see the moderators of this site enforce that against the "get a life" trollers who berate us here. I've not once seen one of their posts locked/deleted. There is a troll posted by one of them that's been running for months.

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Originally posted by sinster

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Originally posted by Wildcat84

I honestly believe that there are some PAID SOE trolls luring these and other forums. They probably require GreyNoob and some of his cohorts to go out and shill for the NGE and troll the disgruntled vets.
Given that SOE themselves accused several of us (myself among them) of being paid by SOE competitors (this is not true btw) to bash them and the NGE leads me to believe that they do engage in the practice themselves.

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the guilty always accuse...... soe has viral marketers on most sites downplaying the damage their stupidity has caused.

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Why the desperation shilling?

Simple. SOE is a failing part of a failing company that is fighting for it's life. They haven't had a product success in years, and their prospects for future hits are bleak.

I honestly believe that there are some PAID SOE trolls luring these and other forums. They probably require GreyNoob and some of his cohorts to go out and shill for the NGE and troll the disgruntled vets.

Given that SOE themselves accused several of us (myself among them) of being paid by SOE competitors (this is not true btw) to bash them and the NGE leads me to believe that they do engage in the practice themselves.

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Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw
*cough*payola*cough*

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Credibility, like virginity, is impossible to recover once lost. Of course, the powers that be chose to lose theirs by doing the bidding of a MMO company that is infected with every venereal disease A-Z, and against the largest and most vocal pissed off playerbase in history.

Why hasn't this long drawn out troll post been locked/deleted yet the class action lawsuit one was (especially since there is FAR more basis in fact for a player lawsuit against SOE than the original troller's post)?

MMORPG mods biased towards SOE?

/captainrenault on

I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED!

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

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Originally posted by Reklaw

+
TERMS OF USE FOR STAR WARS GALAXIES™: AN EMPIRE DIVIDED™ http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/en_US/players/content.vm?page=Policies%20Eula&resource=tos
=
End of discussion

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If you don't have any taste for legal jargon, just skip to the red letters. I believe this leaves the door open for discussion, and clearly indicates the limitations of the EULA. So people that keep saying the EULA allows SOE to get away with anything they want, should really, really read the red letters:
"10. SOE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Some states do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, so the foregoing disclaimer may not apply to you. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other legal rights which vary from state to state. "
AND
"12. IN NO EVENT SHALL SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY LOST PROFITS OR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE) ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR ACCOUNT, THE SOFTWARE, THE GAME OR THIS AGREEMENT INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGE TO PROPERTY AND – TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW – DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURY, EVEN IF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES OR LOSS. THE LIABILITY OF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR ANY OF THEIR PARENT OR AFFILIATED COMPANIES TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IS LIMITED TO $100. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO EQUITABLE RELIEF INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS TO ENFORCE THE TERMS HEREOF; HOWEVER, THE FOREGOING SHALL NOT PRECLUDE SOE AND/OR ITS LICENSORS FROM SEEKING ANY INJUNCTIVE RELIEF. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY, SO THEY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU." (quotations taken directly from the Terms of Use for StarWars Galaxies, as they currently appear on the starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com webpage, red font added by the poster for emphasis)
This is a very important point in this discussion. I hope every time defenders of SOE's dishonest business practices start shouting "EULA EULA!", this gets highlighted.
I'm still not pushing for legal action personally, but one grows tired of people trying to defend SOE's lies with....more lies or misleading statements.

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The EULA in and of itself isn't an absolute grant of immunity to SOE/LEC. It's only claim to legality is as a contract.

But is it a contract?

It's a contract in the sense that it's a "blank check" agreement between you, the customer (who has no rights granted by it) and SOE/LEC (who could insert language requiring you to submit your virgin daughters to Smed if they wanted to without your consent, they basically can alter it at any time in any way, unilaterally).

Contracts don't work that way. Contracts are supposed to be consensual agreements between equals. SOE/LEC's reservation of the right to unilaterally alter it at any time basically takes them outside the realm of established contract law, since to make an alteration to a contract, you MUST offer some sort of compensation (agreed upon mutually) in exchange. Simply "click I agree or you can't continue to use the prepaid service you already bought" is not sufficient compensation. That would be called duress. A real life example: Employers who try to foist more restrictive noncompete agreements on existing employees (done all the time) "sign this or you will be fired" has been ruled over and over again by courts all over the country as to be illegal, and invalid.

Also, EULA is that it is "click thru". Meaning they don't have a signature or a witness. In many locales, click thru contracts are not legal.

Another HUGE problem with the EULA is how broad it is... There is SOMETHING in it that is likely illegal to be in a contract in virtually every jurisdiction in the US and the rest of the world where there are SWG players. In many locales, finding ANY defect in a contract makes the whole thing invalid.

SOE/LEC try to avoid that by including language that it's a contract in the California jurisdiction, that any disputes have to be adjudicated there and under California law.

This is of very dubvious legality.

Simply put, the EULA isn't worth the paper it (isn't) printed on. You never see software companies EVER use their EULA in court. About the only purpose they really serve is to give them something they can use as a claim of dispute to even GET you into court, IF THEY WANTED TO SUE A PLAYER!

It is completely useless as a defensive tool to protect them from a lawsuit.

My last pre-CU template was:

Master Swordsman/Teras Kasi Master/Master Brawler with the rest in FS boxes. This toon became my Jedi 5 days later.

My other main character was a Master Doctor/Master Dancer

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Originally posted by zevian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_switch

The wikipedia definition of the old Bait and Switch.
It doesnt seem to apply.

In retail sales, a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product.


The advertised good was a Star Wars MMO, That never changed. They didnt lure you into a Star Wars MMO and replace it with say Hello Kitty MMO, You got what you paid for.

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So you are saying that it'd be perfectly legal to sell you "a Star Wars game" (ie, the new one they are working on) and instead deliver you the Atari 2600 Empire Strikes Back game?

No... They advertised the profession system, the skill system, it was on the boxes, it was in the manuals, it was in their advertising, then took it away and replaced it with "Hello Kitty". Furthermore, they KEPT marketing it while knowing they were going to replace it.

Sooner or later, a MMO publisher is going to be sued by players, either for defects (bugs) or over gameplay changes. Right now it's the "wild wild west", publishers can do whatever they want. This is rife for abuse, and the NGE was the first example of that being taken to such an extreme that it's about time for the sheriff (government, courts, etc) to lay down some law, order, and civilization...

A refund is one of the things my proposal would ask for.

However, you can't go in just asking for money. A lawsuit basically is this:

You, SOE/LEC wronged us, and we are suing so that you can make us whole.

Since reinstating the old game is technically possible, that would be one of the things you'd have to ask for to be "made whole", since money wouldn't accomplish that.

Besides, there are many who would love to go back to the old game if it were offered. The ironic thing about this is that SOE/LEC would in the end make MORE money if they were ordered to do that.

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Originally posted by Caldrin
cool.. i guess this means i can sue the company behind that film i watched the other day that really sucked...

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You could sue them if you were marketed to that it was going to be (for example) a action adventure movie with Bruce Willis (Pre-NGE), and that when you showed up at the theater and bought your ticket (subscribed) this was on the ticket and the signs, but when you started watching the movie you were shown a kid movie starring Kevin Federline (NGE) and you were denied a refund.

Furthermore, if the studio, theaters, etc (think SOE and LEC), were in cahoots with each other to conceal this fact until you were past the point of no return (had paid them), you'd definitely be able to sue!