I never asked for everything that I want.

What I would like to see is a game developer who is interested in giving their CURRENT customers what they want, rather than constantly looking for ways to alter their game to make it appeal to people who aren't really even gamers, much less current customers.

Originally posted by Warbird1

NC Soft did basically the same thing near the end of Tabula Rasa.  They even kept the game available for download a month after they announced it was dead.

I was just about to yell at you and point out that Tabula Rasa was a different situation... then I realized it actually is very similar.

Richard Garriot was paid MILLIONS of dollars by NCsoft for the rights to publish Tabula Rasa. Garriot was supposed to remain on with NCsoft as the lead developer for the game but he took all they money they paid him and ran off to Russia with it to buy himself a trip into outer space, which is where he was around the time the game launched, instead of where he should have been which was doing his job and making sure the game he invented wasn't a piece of crap. After the game failed Richard Garriot thought he could just fade away into the night and nobody would ever be the wiser... but we all saw what he did there.

Now we have Gary Whiting attempting a similar stunt with StarGate Worlds. First he gets a bunch of people to "invest" in the game. Then the money goes... somewhere (although not into development of the game or to pay employees, obviously). After that Gary denies everything and dissapears. He thinks he can get away with it... but we all see what he did there. And apparently so do the eight different people/groups who have filed lawsuits aginst him and CME.

The employees at CME are being pressured to go along with this scheme because Gary owns the whole company and can fire them if they speak out aginst him. Even the former employees are afraid to say anything because they might get black balled in the industry. No game developer wants to hire a person with ethics these days, that would make it hard for them to screw over their customers. So either you play ball with the BS game developers try to pull behind the scenes and keep your mouth shut about it... or you end up as the fry cook at Mcdonalds.

But I respect the guy a McDonalds. Atleast he is honest. Thats a hell of a lot more than I can say for any game developer in the industry these days.

Originally posted by Burntvet

A bigger problem is that many EULAs, in the software industry in general and the video game industry in particular are "legal" because they have not been tested in court yet. In the very few times it has to this point, EULAs and the software makers in general, have come out on the losing side. Companies have gotten away with borderline/illegal EULAs, because not many people are going to go through the trouble of suing over $50 + a monthly fee, but, with "virtual property" becoming more and more common, because of all this RMT BS companies are doing now, it is only a matter of time.

As a side note, it is a well founded legal principle (in the US, at least) that an illegal contract (and there are many legal definitions of this) is NOT enforceable, under any circumstance, regardless if there is a signed contract or not. If someone decides to sell a kidney for $50000, and then doesn't, you can't sue, because the activity is prohibited by law. A person can not contractually agree to have their rights violated. If in a software EULA, it said that CME or SOE or whomever had the right to come to your house and kick you in the balls if you cancel a subscription, would that be legal? Of course not.

Bottom line is that clicking that "I accept" button on terms and conditions, is worthless, in most cases, and means nothing. It is an attempt to make people think that the company has the right to do this and that, but in reality, the EULAs are, to use legal parlance, crap.

THANK YOU!

Finally... someone who gets it!

Just because a company can force you to sign something before you use their product doesn't make it legal. And even in the cases where it does, it doesn't make their actions ethical by default.

Wrong is still wrong at the end of the day.

Who said this was the right bone?

And lets also define "listening" as used in this context. They may HEAR what we have to say, but they aren't truly listening to us unless they CARE and actually plan to take our opinions into account when designing the game. That is where I doubt their motives for this change.

"LEGITIMATE RIGHT" does NOT equal ethical behavior.

Wrong is wrong, even if you have a contract which allows you to get away with it.

Originally posted by Agricola1

Raltar: No just click this link here and you'll see stewarts interview and Jacksons funeral.

FanOri: I see no evidence there *puts fingers in ears* LA LEE LAAAAA LEEE LAAA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

Yeah, that seems to be the way this conversation is going Agricola. They are now trying to claim they are entitled to some kind of alternate understanding of the universe where they can look at a piece of evidence and see something totally different that what everyone else is seeing there.

Originally posted by yellowperil

A: I was making out that his comprehension may not be like yours.

B: I really didnt expect you to write an essay on everything I said, it was more a point of making people aware he may comprehend stuff differently from you 

A: Yes, it apparently isn't like mine. However there are only two types of comprehension. Correct and incorrect.

If I show two people a piece of paper that says "the house is on fire" and one of them says its a piece of paper which says "the house is one fire" while the other says its a pile of juciy bannanas, which one is has correctly understood the situation? Not the guy who is seeing bannanas, I can tell you that.

So the fact of the matter is that between myself and Kadael, only ONE of us can possibly have correctly comprehended this situation. I have evidence that my understanding is correct. Kadael assumes his understanding is correct simply because that is what he WANTS to believe. Who are you going to trust?

B: In other words, you have the same attitude as Kadael. You want to be able to post your opinion but you don't think anyone should be allowed to reply to it?

Buddy, this is a FORUM, the whole point is that people will reply. Get used to it or go use a BLOG.

Mel...

You seem to think: LAW = ETHICS

Which is probably the most blindingly stupid statement in the universe. By your logic, slavery is okay as long as some leader somewhere makes a law saying its legal to own a slave.

Just because some company makes everyone who uses their product sign a legal document surrendering all their rights doesn't make anything they decide to do after that ethical or moral. The fact that they even ask you to sign away your rights in the first place is unethical.

Talking with you is a waste of my time. Its clear you are going to continue to whine that video games aren't important enough to be bound by any ethical standard just to justify the fact you don't apparently give a shit about anyone but yourself. You are obviosuly every bit as evil as the people you are defending.

From the sound of the interview, I would assume that the five person limit on instances applies to episodes (the "quests" of the game).

The game world itself doesn't sound like it will be broken up the way Guild Wars was. Instead of going from one "zone" to another "zone" like in guild wars, this game seems to have a few main social hubs (Starbases and the like) and then when you are traveling through space you will be on a "world map" type of screen where you will see locations like star systems, star bases, points of interest and such. Entering one of those locations will then take you into a specific type of area based on what it was you entered. Some areas will be randomly generated instances and some will be common areas where you can run into other players. What portion of the game will end up being instanced isn't known at this point really.

That is my understanding based on what I've read about the game. I make no promise that I'm correct in any of what I said.

Originally posted by yellowperil

A: It could be its beyond his comprehension why people would hate on CME and the developer so much.

B: It could be beyond his comprehension why people drag this stuff on and on like they do.

C: It could be beyond his comprehension the replies he gets to his post.

D: It could be beyond his comprehension why people are still going on and on and on about stuff were there is no proof (take which ever side you want). 

E: It could be beyond his comprehension that everyone keeps saying SGW is dead and has been shelved.

A: Uh, lets see. Eight lawsuits? Their inability to update their site more than once a year? The fact that they don't pay their employees? The fact they lie to us and claim they are still working on the game even though they can provide no evidence of any progress? The list goes on and on.

B: If I recall correctly (and I do) he was the one who started all of this by coming in here to post his "updates" and then insulting and ranting at everyone in earshot when we asked him why he wouldn't inculde the lawsuits in his summary. YOU and he seem to be the ones dragging this on just as much as anyone else.

C: Then apparently the concept of a forum is beyond his comprehension. When you make a post on a forum, you should EXPECT people to reply. Thats kind of the whole point of a forum. If he just wants to rant without giving anyone a chance to correct him then he should stick to updating his pointless wiki.

D: This point sounds identical to point B, except you now claim WE have no proof? First of all, Its Kadael who has no proof. He has stated multiple times now that despite the lack of updates and news from the developer he has chosen to believe (based on faith alone, not evidence) that the game is still being worked on. That is the only lack of evidence here. Meanwhile, there are mountains of evidence aginst the game being developed, such as the eight lawsuits, comments from Shane which suggest they are now working on Stargate Battles instead and hordes of employees fleeing from CME like rats from a sinking ship.

E: Yes, apparently that is beyond his comprehension, even though it is so obviously true.

NICE.

Kadael asked me to show him a source on his "old rubbish" comment and I gave him a link directly to it.

Apparently that was when this place became "beyond comprehension" for him, thus giving him an excuse not to reply.

Real classy.

Originally posted by Pugla

I completely understand a burning desire to see a game based on a franchise you love. I get it. What I cannot understand is ignoring morality in order to get it. Fans of CME often come to this forum to tell us that we should not get so worked up over a game, but that isn't the issue I have here. To hell with the game. Why is it okay to scam, cheat, and lie? Why are you willing to indirectly support that? Why would you subscribe to any game that will help Gary Whiting make money?

Quoted for truth and an excellent set of questions.

More direct links to the same info:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=954668&postcount=3840

http://www.mmojunkies.tv/2009/11/14/co-lifetimers-6-monthers-wait-until-december/

Yes, I think its safe to say that MANY people are worried about this.

One thing I've tried to make clear several times and it never quite gets through:

Not every critic of STO is a fan of the player crew system!

So there are plenty of us here who have very limited or no faith in Cryptic/STO but it has nothing to do with player crews.

Do we all FINALLY understand that now? ... Yeah, I'm probably asking for way to much from this crowd...

Anyway, I have been aware of Starquest for quite awhile but I've never tried it. I've considered it a few times but when I read reviews it either sounds too much like EvE (where you spend ungodly amounts of time grinding to earn enough money just to buy a damn ship) or it sounds too much like a political pissing contest between the existing players and anyone new trying to break into the game. I've seen this sort of xenophobic behavior from a lot of small lesser known games. The existing players get an attitude that the game belongs to them and they don't have to make room for new players unless those players spend an approprate amount of time sucking up first. And even then they still need to understand they are new and will always be second rate citizens compared to the people who have been there for years. I don't have any desire to deal with that kind of crap again.

Originally posted by Tylantia

@Raltar -

Kadael must be in the minority because he insists that these are just rumors, "old rubbish" and lies.

Source please.

I would LOVE to give you a source on this!

In your "current" information thread, you were asked why you falied to inculde all the ACTUAL current information about the lawsuits, money problems, employees being unpaid and lack of any news from the dev team. In reply you said THIS (source link):

Kadael: "I have no intention of trapsing through all the old rubbish a fair chunk of you lot on here seem to love doing."

There you have it: We aksed you why you wouldn't acknowledge the lawsuits and you anwsered by blowing it off as "old rubbish" because in your mind anything that doesn't look good for the game isn't worth talking about. That same post was also where you have us your "evidence" that the game is still being woked on just because there is a website:

Kadael: "And until I cannot access the website and forums anymore, the game(s) are still being worked on to my knowledge; and thats what I believe."

Proof positive that everything I've said about your attitude has been true. You refuse to discuss any issue which won't result in HYPE for the game. Instead you choose to beleive, aginst all the facts, that the game is still going to come out simply because thats what you WANT to believe, not becuse it makes any actual sense.

I know you will never admit it and will use every bone the developers throw to you as an excuse to continue your foolish quest, but all the evidence proves that this game cannot be released under the current conditions. They just don't have the money or resources to make it happen and the lawsuits are going to wipe them out completely soon. The only chance this game has is for CME to be shut down and for another developer to take over the project, hopefully starting from scratch. If you really want to see this game released and want to support it, then by all logic you should hate Gary and MMOGULs even more than any of the rest of us.

So the news is that someday they might announce some news?

I think we have heard this before...

Originally posted by Brenelael

This is awesome news and proof that Cryptic is listening to the fan base after all.

It... is a very good sign, I'll let you have that.

But "proof" that they are listening to their fans? I wouldn't go that far just yet. Maybe when they remove instances from the game, put up a list of Klingon ships on the site and let all the people into the closed beta test who they have already promised slots to, I'll believe they are listening. Until some of that stuff happens, Its just Cryptic throwing us a bone.

Originally posted by supremeaaron

A: What makes you think we don't know about the court cases?

B: What gives you the right to throw all these lies around.

C: I have you know that Kadael and many of what you call "fanboys" actually know of the existence of these cases.

A: Oh, I'm sure that Kadael "knows" about them. He knows because I have personally witnessed him being told several times. My issue is that he will not listen. Any time anyone says anything bad about SGW he declares that person a "hater" and puts them on ignore. Any time anyone asks him why he doesn't want to discuss the lawsuits or money problems with the game he says its "old rubbish" and refuses to discuss it. He is only here to create HYPE for the game. He doesn't care about the truth.

B: Nothing I have said is a lie. Kadael has less than 30 posts on this forum. If you read through them you will see for yourself he has done nothing but try to assure people the game is fine and still being worked on... which is the exact same thing the developers have been doing for the last year and was never the truth.

C: Like I said, I'm sure they do. They just don't want to admit to it because then they would also have to admit that any money Gary has left is probably going to get taken away from him and he will never finish SGW. If they do that then their fantasy is shattered and they would have to face reality like the rest of us. So its easier for them to live in dream land where they can just listen to the promises from the devs that the game will get finished and be the most wonderful thing ever. La de da de da.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

A: On the list of things that are truely important in this world, MMO's (as much as I enjoy them) have to be down pretty near the absolute bottom. They rank somewhere in with;  Who won the World Series, What Paris Hilton is wearing these days and What's being featured on the Home Shopping Network. 

B: I'm pretty sure that no MMO has ever promised customers that they wouldn't change the mechanics of the game (even dramaticly) you are subscribing to. In fact, I think it's pretty standard to put the fact that such changes may occur right in the EULA that you have to agree to before you sign-up for the game... The scenerio you described with SWG may be epochly dumb. Possibly even rude and jerkish.... but it's NOT actually immoral or unethical. It's basicaly a gaming version of  "New Coke".

A: Oh yeah, none of thst stuff matters. Which is why we allow people to cheat in the World Series, Paris Hilton walks down the street naked and the Home Shopping Network sells biological weapons.

No matter how "important" or "unimportant" something may seem to YOU, doesn't give you the right to decide for everyone else. And when someone breaks the rules or shows a total distain for the other people they share this planet with, no matter how minor it may seem to you, they need to be held accountable for that.

B: You obviously have NO CLUE about what really happened with the NGE, do you?

What you don't know, or aren't willing to admit, is that the creators of the NGE weren't just dumb and making a mistake. They knew in advance EXACTLY what the consequences of their actions would be. They knew the changes they were making to the game would ruin the experience for ALL 200,000+ of their current customers. They decided to make the changes anyway, even knowing it would cause 200,000 people to stop using their service and probably cause a lot of anger for those 200,000 people. In my opinion, that sort of total disreguard for your own customers who have kept you in business for years is the worst form of evil any company can ever commit without directly causing someone to die.

And before you go off on another ignorant rant about how they were just following orders and it was dumb but okay, let me refer you to Dan Rubenfield's Infamous 'Go eat a <censored> rant':

We told them. "If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant."

It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.

Dan was one of the developers who worked on the NGE. He has explained multiple times (in a less than friendly manner) why LA and SoE decided to go with the NGE. They KNEW (because they were told by their employees) that it would cause ALL 200,000+ customer to quit the game. They knew and they DID NOT CARE. They just wanted a game which could compete with WoW. That is utterly immoral on every possible level. Thats them saying "we don't care about our customers or the quality of our product, we just want to be rich." There is no possible way you can defend that kind of thinking.

And comapring the NGE to New Coke? Are you serious? When everyone hated New Coke they brought back Coke Classic. When everyone hated the NGE they told us to go <censored> ourselves because they weren't ever going to admit they were wrong. Coke cared if their cusomters were happy or not. Sony clearly is not interested.