All Posts by vajuras

Originally posted by pkSlayde

 I have gone by the name of Slayde in my gaming life. As a pk I would like to tell you that pk is needed! It is needed because most Ultima Online (UO) veterans say that when they were scared it was the best part of the game, it provides a better community, and we are hunted down by others. This is why PK is important to a games life.

First of all, some veterans from the UO days claim that the most fun they had was when they were scared of being pk at every step. I was pk in Diablo 2 repeaditivly and it only made me stronger, because I learned how to survive in the world better. Uo had the murder-system which was where anyone killed anyone they wanted to wherever they wanted to. I should be able to in this game walk into a Dwarf city as a Chosen and kill anyone there NPC’s included, to hurt the other side. This is what would happen if chosen walked into a Dwarf city. Therefore pk is fun for fear reasons, and it is realistic.

Secondly, it provides a better community. Most older generation/teen generations get really annoyed at kids and players who beg, whine, bitch, spam, and tell Chuck Norris jokes. These people fill up the chat systems, and get ignored by others. But, When we kill them when they do this, they stop. If they don’t we kill them again and again. This makes people happy because they don’t have to listen to these people anymore. These players then start to actually play the game. PK makes a great community.

Lastly, people do get annoyed at us, which makes them ask their friends to come kill us. We need to be skillful at what we do because we can be killed at any moment as well. We also need to on the ball because we could be killed at any moment. Killing other players regardless of their level is a good aspect of the game.

Therefore, the online gaming world is made up of three different kinds of people: The Wolf, Carebear, and the Hero. The wolf is the PK, and he kills the carebears. The carebears are those who spam, whine, bitch, and beg. Carebears go and ask the Hero to save them by killing the Wolves. The Hero is the Anti-PK. They then go and kill the Wolves and are praised for it or they die trying. That is why PK is needed for online gaming.

Had to re-read because this thread been around for so long. Hm, like I said before I agree but I also understand some players dont want to be bothered with PKs.

As long as they get their own games and we get ours I'm fine. We're getting plenty of love I think these days on the PK front. And there is always FPS if I need some twitch

I do hope for MMOFPS one day that lacks -RPG elements altogether. Just some minor progression like FPS games have now will be fine for me. No roleplay, just 24/7 murder show

I wonder why "some rare few" PVE'ers think pvpers are begging for them to please come play our MMO as if our game is empty? EVE is what about 250k with over 40,000 concurrent players online. With that many prey online you think we need for some player to come into the community, get killed one time, then campaign for a fractured server with different rule sets?

No, I want for EVE to always remain 1 server. So trust this- pkers are not begging carebears to come play. We enjoy the company of like minded individuals in our MMOs that way our way of life does not get 'dumbed' down or ruined.

Originally posted by UltimateN00b

Originally posted by gath

1- Can you explain why me being "level 10" is any diferent with me having "Sword skill lvl 10"?

2- And why since i already did 500 quests, or whatever, shouldnt i have an advantage over the guy that made the toon 1 minute ago?

3- Also, what is the diference between grinding to get a level, and griding to get higher skills?

4- From some games i played, i find that grinding for skill is much more boring.

5- Unless the game has no way to "compare" players between themselfs, if so, isnt that somewhat... dare i say, boring?

1- That is still a level based system in my book.

2- All the Gold and loot you get still gives you an advantage whether you want to believe so or not.

3- Read number one.

4- I find grinding in Oblivion more fun than grinding in Everquest, but still those are both LEVEL based games.

5- Having a skill cap creates uniqueness, having a hell of a lot of skills but no way to use em at the same time does the same, I don't see how it would necessarily be "boring."

 

In a true game with no levels, once you gain a skill you use it at maximum efficiency immediately.  If you have to grind/waste time to use that skill at a better LEVEL of efficiency, then that is a LEVEL based game.  Eve is a Level based game, people don't want to believe it, but getting skills to LEVEL 5 proves me right.  Now Eve is not a CLASS based game, but Levels and Class are not the same.

Careful, this is why most of us stress "Traditional Level based games".

Levels can be employed in a sandbox and creative way whereas when you gain a level you merely gain a skill point in which you distribute directly to a skill. There are MUDs where you had Level 80s getting beatdown by Level 25s because gaining a Level only granted you an "unlock"

This is also how FPS games work. You gain levels in BF2142 just like in an MMO but the key is that Level merely provides you with a new unlock.

I should note though one thing most of us fail to mention Linear theme parks do get some mileage out of reusing their content via "alts" by forcing players to reroll different Classes. This is why Levels and Classes go hand-in-hand. You can't have any content reuse unless you force players to reroll.

However, raph koster noticed even though this appears to work fine for MMOs that have reached critical mass and always have constant stream of new players- less popular class based MMORPGs tend to fail because they do not have constant traffic at all Levels. And most players settle around higher levels due to the level curve

So point being Level based mmorpgs must cater to newbies to maintain stability. This in turn means we will continue to see more de-evolution taking place in mmorpgs. They will continue to step backwards from UO rather then go forward.

Of course, we have some rare few exception like eVE but that's a rare fringe case to the trend

 Eye opener written by Richard Bartle: Why Virtual Worlds are Being Designed By Newbies

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I'm having trouble understanding why games love putting levels on characters, and why people seemingly like having them. I'm putting together a list of pros and cons I can think of that Levels have, and I'm wondering what you all think.

Pros:

1) Levels provide a way for players to feel a sense of achievement.

Obviously when a player dings, they feel as though they have accomplished something.

2) An easy way to judge how strong your character is compared to another character or mob

Compare your level to the other's and it is clear who is stronger or weaker.

 

Good post but to be fair "Traditional" Levels provide a lot more bonuses then that. For console RPGs, Levels became staple because they provided Developers with total control over the player experience. Devs can place uber mobs around areas you are not supposed to explore yet which acts as an implicit gate. Next, they can tweak difficulty of encounters and make it easy for all.

If you are not strong enough to beat a boss don't worry- just go grind on some creatures and come back later.

Levels helped make the game more accessible to mainstream because those that had no skill could invest time to catch up to those that had skill.

But bringing it to MMORPG space directly has in turn, caused them to become very Linear. Developers still exert full control over our character development and the rigid barriers between friends is contrary to what role playing is all about

In pen and paper, the GM could "power level" you so you could play with the group. Also, the early RPGs had short level caps.

But MMORPGs want you to play forever so instead of innovating like a sandbox gamer would expect and try to better reuse content (Get rid of hard defined Levels) they instead add incredible grinds for Gear and make it take forever to Level up

unfortunately, even if an MMORPG goes skill-based if they don't fully embrace sandbox then you might potentially have a monster grind where we all just sit in one place and grind mobs (like an Asian Grinder).

It's gonna take serious balls to reinvent the wheel. Unfortunately for us- veterans dont really drive MMO sells. Newbies do. So unlike console genres there is a serious lack of innovation

The next crop of games still follow the old regime but hopefully then true nextgen titles will do something cutting edge

Originally posted by gath

1. Can you explain why me being "level 10" is any diferent with me having "Sword skill lvl 10"?

2. And why since i already did 500 quests, or whatever, shouldnt i have an advantage over the guy that made the toon 1 minute ago?

3. Also, what is the diference between grinding to get a level, and griding to get higher skills?

From some games i played, i find that grinding for skill is much more boring.

4. Unless the game has no way to "compare" players between themselfs, if so, isnt that somewhat... dare i say, boring?

Hi Gath those are fair questions. I will try to answer those:

1. Levels place a hard restriction on the game and grant 'ultimate' power. In a skill-based title, the barriers between newbie and veteran are blurred. New players in a skill-based game can usually gang up on a vet and kill him (see EVE online). In a TRADITIONAL Level based game, normally a newbie stands no choice at all against a high level player.

Also, in a skill-based system you have this (example):

Sword Swinging 10/100

Sword Crafting 50/100

Magic 30/100

In a skill-based title I invest time improving the skills I have an interest in. This also means I literally more 'player skilled' at using those skills. In a level based title, you put points into whatever. You muight be a top rank Healer yet never ever used a Heal spell. Ina  skill-based title, only way to advance in healing is by using it. So, a skill-based system more accurately reflects what my interests are.

3. Grinding is Grinding true. However, skill-based titles lend much more strongly towards roleplay because I am investing time building the character I really want to be. It's not some role some Developer picked for me. Why do Developer's need me to grind out Levels for some Class they already made for me? I dont get it seems like fairly weak roleplay too me.

4. I am not sure why that is so boring? What's boring? Having to talk to your fellow player and determine how 'veteran' they are? What's so "fun" about being divided from friends and not getting into Guilds due to that number hanging over your head that screams to everyone "Noob!".

Levels have their uses for linear theme park games. Too me, it feels like playing a game of Mario Brothers whereas I am escourted from zone to zone. In a skill-based title, you can explore any area of the world if it's done right. Veterans and newbies can team together and hopefully the newbie can be of use like in EVE. At very least in EVE, a newbie can be helpful for armor repping, salvaging, etc on missions. As long as the vets hold the aggro

We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? They used a minimum use based system. This is pretty common, most MMORPGs allow crafting to be skilled up in this manner along with weapon skills

If you going to force me into a Class well there goes the sandbox element of building my character. That is usually not what people have in mind when we look for a skill-based game. 

EVE does have PVE content that is non-repetitive sure. But you have to use your noggin'. If all you wanna do is kill rats or farm missions or Mine then you might want to exit that way <---- to the MMO list.

But if you like trading, crafting, or manufacturing then those activites are of course non-repeitive. That is what EVE is aimed at (they have an economist on staff). I believe Missions was a late addon.....

Now, if you are just a pure adventurer that wants to do Quests and dungeons then maybe Vanguard or something else is a much better fit. Especially if you dont care for PvP. EVE is very PVP centric but its also equally a game for everyone

Also be fair guys EVE has a time based training system. There is no reason to grind for anything. The only thing PVE gives you is ISK. And you can use your imagination to earn ISK like starting an ingame business to make it. What I did was spend bout 5-10 mins trading everyday to earn my ISK.

I could be wrong but I think EVE is a much better PVE game for sandbox people like me. I do bout 90% PVE in this game and I like not being forced to grind mobs or quests for XP. dont get me wrong- grinding can be fun too. But im happy EVE doesnt force me to grind technically

Originally posted by deckatre

I have seen this post alot and have seen the same answers and they usually lead to EVE and  although you can build skills up in EQ2 it really isn't "based" on it and CoH/CoV is sort of skill based, its more based on how you choose your abilities over levels and how well you play your character. So if your looking for a "skill based game" go EVE but if you are looking for a "game that takes skill" go CoH/CoV

city of heroes is not a skill-based game in the least nor is EQ2. Don't confuse the term skill-based with player-skill.

Skill-based games: Ultima online, saga of ryzom, elder scrolls (sp RPG), and Fable series (sp RPG)

Time-based (close relative to skill-based just that your skillz on a timer): EVE Online

Originally posted by Emeraq

Even in skill based games, there can still be limitations to grouping. Sure, you can't blame it on levels, but you can blame it on lower strength, lower hp, lower dex, lower mana etc.  Take UO, I could go anywhere with anyone and they wouldn't have to worry about me bringing down their EXP but if they are out fighting Titans, and my HP,  STR, and skills are too low to really be there, I'm a hindrance to them in other ways... IE trying to keep me healed, rezzing me when that Titan two hit kills me etc... So, you can see the same, "you're not strong enough yet to adventure with me" whether it's skill based, or level based, it's really two sides of the same coin.

You just said the key- a veteran can team with a newbie and they both can skillup on the same creature. In a skill-based game the trick is to not let the newbies get aggro. We did this just fine in EVE. My corp took my newbie char whe I first started anywhere from Fleet battles (pvp) to PVE.

And due to lack of grouping restrictions, you can bring an army of newbies if you want. You dont have to tell your friend they cant come with you because in a sandbox we dont have  "sports games" where only 5,8,10, etc group sizes can only do a dungeon

I've been playing Saga of Ryzom lately its totally amazing so far (didnt do pvp yet beyond a duel because im still new)

EVE was an incredible ride with PVP owned space, intel, politics, harsh death penalty, stealing, ransoms, the whole nine. They didnt hold back at all and put out an intelligent game

Not a bad idea... just not sure I want to play a game in that time period. But its a great idea. Maybe if you could do a parallel universe sort of thing like Crimson skies (xbox360) where even though you have 1920 era scenery it still looks nice

meh who am I kidding anyway all MMORPGs are time consuming one way or another... Well you could play Guild Wars and try to use that to ease you out. There is also FPS games like BF2142. The last time I "quit" I joined a clan and played that hardcore til they all left bf2142 for WoW. Now they back playing CoD4

You also wean yourself off by playing mini-MMOs like Neverwinter Nights.

single player rpgs does the trick for me along with FPS. I found myself not playing MMOs for many weeks

Sorvath wrote a good post tho

So you posted this at an MMORPG site? It's like going to a crack house asking the local drug addicts how to quit

You really don't have to quit just stop raiding and just PK. That's much less time consuming

My guess is you are hooked on WoW?

I've been trying to look at screenshots and youtube movies. It appears the male wizards end up wearing skirts (was watching a movie on youtube)? Can I wear nice looking armor that gives magic bonuses?

sigh, such a tough decision I really value my character's appearance awhole lot perhaps a bit too much heh.

Where can I read up on the lore? That will help me pick. So far I liked Zorai for their tribal ways but perhaps some of the others might maintain that feel.

I played on my Zorai female character for a bit the other night on newbie isle. But I dunno I guess I should try all the races before I committ since this game sounds like EVE whereas you stick with one avatar mostly?

How do female characters get treated do they get harassed all the time?

I'm thinking I'll just go with a male as usual

Any benefits to being a particular race? This game not like eVe right whereas you have FoTM races (caldari achura bloodline / amarr cyberknight).

Originally posted by Saevel

With WoW being such a huge success, and being almost purely based on PvE, I can't see how there won't be more of these games.

 

 

At launch, WoW pvp servers vastly outnumbered PVE servers. Even now WoW PVE servers have just as much content as PVP servers. I don't agree with this statement please elaborate

edit- I do agree btw that WoW is strongly PVE centric I'm not daft but it has a lot of PVP content. so if anything it helped reinforce how much players appreciate pvp.

Originally posted by Bladin

I'm up for realistic open pvp.

And by that i mean.

Perminant penalties for committing acts of murder.

Your guild raids another town, your guild and it's members are pillagers and your reputation will remain so forever.  You can't go grind some mobs to undo it.  You can't change guilds and escape your reputation.

Have situations where if you kill someone in sight of a guard, you become wanted and hated in the city forever.  If someone escapes your ganking attempt and reports you to a guard, the same situation occurs, heck perhaps even if your seen by ANY other players they can report you as well(perhaps you get a list and icons appear over witness' heads,) If you can't clean up the situation then your going

Have options to sneak into towns, and avoid guards.

Prisons.

War between countries where perhaps a country could be perminantly destroyed off the server.

Guilds building up a city that grows in size and members, and reputation and eventually becomes a force to reckon with for the other real nations, forming alliances that all share a part in the town.  Heck even becoming the capital city in perhaps a entire country.  Not just "XXXXXXXX's guild city.

 

This is the pvp i want.

I don't want random ganking while someones mining just because you get your kicks from it. Killing him for his resources, and then having to kill witness'.  Miner's for example find a cave(perhaps they spawn randomly under the ground when excavagating. then a guild sends in a team to mine it quickly, while guards are posted in the cave and around the cave.

It's not realistic to just pk.

Open pvp as you pks want it isn't realistic.  I want a REAL game, with REAL consequences, with REAL systems.

I don't want just a half ass pvp system thrown over a pve game where pkers can just get their kicks.

I'll take a PvP game with NO PvE, in the traditional sense of slaying dragons to level up. but rather where the npcs are replacement players

EVE is pretty much this way in nullsec whereas the space is all player controlled. We mark 'pirates' and their entire guild when they kill a friendly. From that point on they are always KOS until they surrender.

I believe Shadowbane is that way as well

Lineage 2 uses a karma system I've heard. I didnt play that one but I know Rappelz used a karma system which was pretty brutal. ytou could work off the immorality points but that would be a tough grind

I think most hardcore pvpers are already playing systems like this in one form or another. Not sure who you were replying too though I avoided this thread intentionally cause I know how heated PK threads can get

I agree with the spirit of the thread all MMORPG needs PK (at least for me). If you dont have it in some form, I'm not paying for half a game. At least have consentual pvp zones at very least

Originally posted by Arremus

Isn't that the whole purpose of torrent files?
We take on the burden of the download traffic, so that the Devs don't need to use anywhere near as much bandwidth supplying the file?

I don't think it can hurt for those of us who have downloaded the file to keep seeding it indefinitely?

Yep that is how bittorrent works the more that downloads and shares the bit torrent the better.