Way to go Bioware, for pushing the roll an alt as content, and not really fixing the true problems that the game has. How about pull the training wheels off and let players get off your predefined railed path. How about add in tools and systems that create player interdependency amongst the community and really have something to do outside of combat. How about letting players really have open world pvp and knock down all the instances and barriers that seperate the 2 factions from each other. Man, i could go on forever about how to add things into this game that would turn it  into an actuall mmorpg, but since Bioware are the masters of the gaming world, they will continue to push out minimal things that will keep this title a SPRPG with coop features.

Originally posted by GMan3

Originally posted by musicmann

Not to be a bearer of bad news but really every class in the end plays out pretty much the same. Yes, the story from the get go kinda sucks you in and Bioware did a decent job making you believe that somehow your decisions really mean something to your character, they really don't by the way. Bioware knows that TOR is just different enough with it's story, story and more story, that they hope to hook you in by the first 8 to 10 levels. I say, in my opinion, just say no and save your money, but, i also believe that everyone should make that decision on their own. I got a good month and a half out of the game and i still feel like i was cheated being a SW fan and all, and that's really the thing about it. If this game didn't have the SW IP attached to it, i believe it would have already been shutdown.

    So getting different quests based on the decisions you make in your quest dialogue doesn't make a difference?  NPC's reacting to you differently based on your Light Side / Dark Side Alignment doesn't make a difference?  Frankly, while I do think this game needs more work (but then again all MMOs need more work), this is the first MMO I have found where your decisions actually matter.  No more with only "Yes, I will take the mission" or "No, I am not interested at this time".  Now I actually have a reason, not just in my head but in game as well, as to why I am taking the mission based on how I want my character to play.  Pretty nifty if you ask me and much better than pretty much any other MMO released in the last 8 years.

    If you were disappointed, maybe it is because you expected way too much.  Seems to be a pretty common problem on these forums for almost every game.  Can't wait to see the whining when some of these new "uber games" come out and people got themselves too hyped for those as well.

Are you kidding me. Doesn't matter what you choose, in the end you will still need to kill whomever to gain the title of either Darth or Master. Every class has pretty much the same style ending. My Sith Warrior's ending had me kill my former master who was trying to become the Emperor's voice. My jedi Consular has a story about finding some Stih Lord that is using the force that is making jedi masters ill. Doesn't matter what i choose, at the end of the story, i will have to face my enemy. The same goes for the light / dark side points. On my sith i am Dark 5 or whatever and there's no difference other than some of the weapons or clothing i can or can't use.

There's nothing about this game that really gives you choice, it's all an illusion. At the end of the day, like i said, if there were no SW IP attached to this game, it would have been shutdown by now. Bioware is trying to sell this game still as a mmorpg and it's just not. The game is a ok SPRPG with coop features at best.

Also, you can go back and look up my posting history on these forums. I never hyped the game nor put myself in the position to expect way to much as you put it. I always stood firm that Bioware from the information that was be given, was gonna deliver a top notch mmorpg. The problem is, they kept information so locked up, what they made the game out to be is not what they delivered in my opinion. I started in the early access on Dec 13th and leveled my first 50 in a month and a half. I stepped out from my personal story and did everything the game had to offer. At the end of the road, i sat back and realized that i just played a new KOTOR game because that's what it felt like, a SPG not a real mmorpg.

Since i can't post anymore on the official TOR forums anymore, why don't you fo over there and look at all the people who feel the same way that i do. It's filled with threads about how boring the game is, or the story really isn't that great in a mmo and such. Yea, i'm disappointed, that for sure. I am a huge SW fan that has had two different dev companies screw over the SW IP. One that ruined SWG with the dumbass NGE and the other that had all the money and produced a SPG that has about as much depth and mmo features as the water in the game itself.

Originally posted by kantseeme

ROFL @ ep 5! when they started to atk there house i fucking lost it LOL. thats funny shit right there

That is the type of stuff you just can't get with a straight move you along the rails themepark game. They were having fun, with a system in the game that not only allowed a group effort but the small things like attacking their own house. Priceless and what a real mmorpg is all about.

Originally posted by QSatu

Originally posted by Zekiah

Current developers take note, these are features that should be in your  *cough* so-called MMOs.

This game absolutely puts to shame any other MMO on the market with its feature list.

From these vids I learned all those features look cool on paper but the actual gameplay is full of wait here and die of boredom. To each their own.

Wow, an actual mmorpg that doesn't hold your hand, and you think it's boring. Some people i guess.

Originally posted by Slampig

I had no impressions. I downloaded the game and was excited to try it out, but alas, when I fired it up, my screen went blank and said something along the lines of, "Input not supported".

 

After letting out a sigh I just uninstalled the game and continued with my evening. 

Man, i wish my computer would have died right before i loaded the game. I then could have went back and got my refund for the game. Best to stay away, far far away.

Originally posted by MurlockDance

Originally posted by GMan3

    Actually, I see his argument as a fairly valid one.  The simple fact is that in only a few hours it is very hard to learn the ins and outs of ANY game, especially an MMO.  Longer play allows for more indepth understanding of the mechanics and how they interact.  So finding fault with the amount of time played by this OP really isn't all that unusual.  Now if the guy had played 30 hours or more, OR better yet gotten to level 30, than I would agree with you Rocketeer.

Uhm, 30/50 levels has nothing to do with new player experiences. Don't talk rubbish. New player experience = first 10 or 15 so levels + starting areas + tutorial + whatever crack the devs throw at you to try to hook you. It is no coincidence that the first 15 or so levels in most themeparks are easy, fun, flashy, and cool, and the tutorial has to be cool too.
 

It is obvious a four-day weekend is not meant to be one during which someone levels a character to max level, or even to level 30. Perhaps some people did, but I bet a lot of people did what I did and tried several characters to see what story and what abilities they liked most.

Instead of throwing red herring arguments to try to discredit my OP why don't we talk about the free to play weekend itself, which is what my thread is about?

Not to be a bearer of bad news but really every class in the end plays out pretty much the same. Yes, the story from the get go kinda sucks you in and Bioware did a decent job making you believe that somehow your decisions really mean something to your character, they really don't by the way. Bioware knows that TOR is just different enough with it's story, story and more story, that they hope to hook you in by the first 8 to 10 levels. I say, in my opinion, just say no and save your money, but, i also believe that everyone should make that decision on their own. I got a good month and a half out of the game and i still feel like i was cheated being a SW fan and all, and that's really the thing about it. If this game didn't have the SW IP attached to it, i believe it would have already been shutdown.

Archeage will be something to watch out for. It seems to be that hybrid that consists both game styles. If it ever gets released in the west and does well, i think it could change alot on how devs make mmo's in the future.

Originally posted by Mythios11

Originally posted by grindery

I''ve never seen such a great op turn into poor written name calling so fast. I disagree with most of the points, however, the original post was incredibly constructed. The reason I'm responding though is because the op and his quip about self entitlement.

It's extremely funny that he calls out those with more time spent in a game, and calls them entitled. When to me it's just the other way around. Casual gamers (which I am) seem to want to be able to log into their chosen game and have their mailbox filled with items on par with raiding items. To me the only ones exhuding entitlement are casual players.

Eventually, the whine and casual passive-aggressive complaints are going to change mmo's the want they want them to be. I can see it now, upon character creation you will choose whether you're a hardcore player or a casual player.

Upon choosing hardcore players will log on and play the game how they want to. Then casual players will receive the same amount of xp as the hardcore player does while sitting in the starting city. On top of that, any piece of shiny new gear that the hardcore player finds is immediately duplicated and mailed to all casual players.

Seems like a glorious game to me, finally the time vs rewards arguement will be solved.

+1

I remember back in Vanilla WoW when only the very best players had epic items,  I can log into WoW now and within an hour have enough Justice or Honor points to get an epic item.

Instant gratification and an even playing field for all players does not make an MMO better.  In fact, it has proven to ruin most communities (look at WoW)

 

 

I definitly agree with you on this. I never considered myself a hardcore player, just very goal oriented. I can sit back and remember ny days in SWG unlocking my jedi. It took me 7 months total from unlock to full template and 33 million xp when i was finally done. So much time invested just to have other's complain about what and how long it took for SOE to give them insta jedi in the NGE.

What and how GW2 does to even things out on such things will be interesting.

Ever since WOW's carrot on the stick gear elitism design, mmo's have suffered greatly. I remember back in my SWG days wanting to unlock a jedi. It took me over 7 months to unlock and skill him up to full template. Did i think that i was more of a elite player for the time invested than a master craftsman that had a customer list that was long as my arm, hell no. On the other hand was there others that felt they were better because they unlocked a jedi, probably yes, but it just didn't feel that way as how it did/does in WOW or all the other games that followed that carrot design.

I really feel it was because of the openess and player interdependency that SWG had in place, i needed things that others did and made and the circle kept moving. Yea i could swing a glow bat around, but having my name on the top of a Bounty Hunters list and having to go toe to toe with players that were as equally as skilled as i was and not relying on who had the best gear is what made great gameplay.

If GW2 can capture just a little bit of that type of player dynamics and interdependency, then they will have done something that has been needed to come back for a long time.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Exactly!

@_@

You know, I'm just so tired of clinging to the past.

...

It is really funny. Because i am clinging to the past, but in my case it is the UO, virtual world paradigm. And there was nothing like that, which you have summed up very well for the WoW(item collecting, grinding) paradigm. It was a free world, where you could do what you wanted, where everyone could play with anyone, because there was not a huge level gap, the die hard veteran with the very noob just started to play. You got community, a feeling of a living world, where you could just lure at the marketplace to listen carefully at other discussions(no chat channels to serperate the world from the players), where you got meeting points like the blacksmith(no anonym auction houses), where crafters, resource suppliers and adventures come together for a lil talk, a lil roleplaying, and to trade some stuff. A world where it was dangerous to going outside into the wilderness, where pks stand by to rob you, where the adventure was everywhere. Where a full set of armor and weapon was easily afforded with just a few hours of hunting, and come usually from the crafters. Where player houses and player shops were all over the world. Where you usually just belong to beeing there and for a talk or a lil adventure or what ever, but no game plan what you have to do next, what was required from you or all that shit.

Then Everquest come, and introduced a level gap, so it was impossible that a veteran (lvl xx) could even play with a noob (lvl x), well even the areas where divided for said lvl, the world become small and for one simple purpose, to lvl up. No adventures any more, no living world, just a rollacoaster to max level.. and the grind begun. The introduced items appropriate for every level(in UO everyone weared the same stuff.. a plate mail is just a plate mail, isnt it, not with some lvl tagged to it so it becomes something different) and the item grind started. And i could rant endlessly.

And WoW perfected that paradigm, and it would even worst.

I miss the old time.. where mmos meant to be played, and not to be grinded. But as you said, i just clinging to the past, its all over.

Oh man, good times they were.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by musicmann

The only problem i have with the OP's post is the Old MMORPG mindset that he seems to go only as far back as WOW. The real Old MMORPG mindset goes back to when this genre was about player interdepenency and virtual worlds. Even though WOW was not a bad game, it clearly ushered in a era of letting the devs do the thinking for the players and the repetative carrot on the stick design that almost every game all the way up to today has followed.

If GW2 can break out of the norm mode that has plagued this genre for the last 7 yrs. then it just might do enough to change how these games are made.

The reason why he only goes back to WoW is because the entire genre is fixated on this whole WoW Clone phenomonen and not one MMO released since WoW has tried to differentiate itself from Blizzard's beast or distant itself from its core gameplay design whereas I think the original big 3 (EQ, UO & AC) all were so vastly different that it would be a laughing shame to think of them being a clone of one another.  So in essence he does not need to go back that far because the old MMO games tried to be different whereas the 2nd generation of MMO's have been stangant to the point of obscenity.

I know, i just wanted to clarify that old mmorpg players went further back than WOW, nothing more. For too long now that WOW dangling carrot on the stick design has plagued this genre. In my opinion, looking back at mmo's that came before WOW and taking what they done in the virtual world, social and community building designs and bringing them into a game world with constant dynamic content is the way to move forward in this genre.

The only problem i have with the OP's post is the Old MMORPG mindset that he seems to go only as far back as WOW. The real Old MMORPG mindset goes back to when this genre was about player interdepenency and virtual worlds. Even though WOW was not a bad game, it clearly ushered in a era of letting the devs do the thinking for the players and the repetative carrot on the stick design that almost every game all the way up to today has followed.

If GW2 can break out of the norm mode that has plagued this genre for the last 7 yrs. then it just might do enough to change how these games are made.

The people here that is bashing him, needs to step out from behind the WOW mentality and other games of the same mold and open their minds to something much deeper than the water in TOR.  MMORPG's are about player interdepenency and having the tools to build a strong community in a virtual world. In laymen's term: stuff to do outside of combat.

While there is nothing wrong with developer content, the problem comes in when they take away all the different choices on how to do that said content and rails the players down one specific path to complete the task at hand. Players want the freedom to make the decisions on when where and what they do in that virtual game world, and neglecting them to do so goes against everything that a mmorpg really stands for.

I posted this once before and i really thinks it applies to this genre more today that ever before. The phrase or meaning of MMORPG really doesn't mean the same thing as it was when the term first was used. Somehow, in the last atleast 7 yrs. that term has changed in meaning a little bit each yr. and now resembles something more in line with SPRPG. Instead of virtual worlds we now have game worlds that devlopers lead players through instanced corridors to get to a quest hub, that leads to nothing but combat for gear that becomes useless because once at max level the ride changes to a merry go gear grind. 

The only hope i see in the future is Archeage. If there is any game that needs to bring it and bring it well, it's that game. By doing so, i can only hope it would have such a positive reaction, it will change the face of the genre and once again bring back virtual worlds with the depth and freedom that the players of this genre deserve.

Originally posted by Corthala

I love the game. Is sad to see only hate on this site but after years you get used to mmorpg.com users complains and hate for every new game...

It's not hate. Just when you lift the veil or remove the biggest selling point which is Star Wars from it, you can clearly see that it is a very poorly done SPG with coop functions. First and foremost i love SW, and Bioware or Lucas Arts or both just destroyed a little bit more of the IP. The NGE now this bland and static game to represent one of the biggest, in depth and diverse IP's on the planet. Just pathetic.

I believe that they are trying to herd off people from the Tera beta that starts this weekend.

Guys, it's not about grouping or going solo. It's about communtiy building and TOR doesn't have the tools to do so. Different planets will always have different amounts of people that are on them at any given time. Remembering back to my SWG pre-cu days, C-net and Theed were always filled with folks and i could go to Rori and see no one. What made planets feel alive were the player cities, vendors day night cycles and the exploration that could be done. The places that people went to grind xp had full cantina's, guilds that were full IMPs that RP Stormtrooperswalking around and dark jedi that spawned and came in and 100 people would all die trying to take him down. That type of interdependency was what made a great alive mmorpg. Sadly TOR doesn't have that and i don't think ever will.

Originally posted by Soopaman

I cant understand why ppl have this need to group together all the time in a land of make believe.

You don't get it. It's not about having to group up all the time. It's about community interdependency among players and having things to do outside of combat. TOR lacks any social tools and systems that allows for that to happen. Without those tools, and a game with all combat, all you have is a SPRPG  and not a true MMORPG.

I agree with the OP but would like to add that, what's really hurting TOR is the lack of social tools and planet exploration. There's just no reason to go or be on any planet but to quest. Bioware laid out all the nice cities that have cantina's but there's no reason other to log off to be in them or there is a quest tied to it. The only social interaction between players is to group up for combat and that gets old very fast. In my opinion the game was just made wrong. The SW IP is to large and vast to shoebox it into a very tight linear themepark model.

The #1 thing would be to give the players a choice in PVP. Yea, FFA pvp can be fun, but only if there's a system in place like the origional SWG overt/covert system. Let the players decide when they want to step into PVP and when they just want to observe. I really think a xp loss wouldn't be a bad idea, for those that want to live on the edge and pvp the majority of their game time.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Thane

 

 

ps: uh and they surely did not kill SWG, that decision was lucas' (-arts) alone.

i hardly doubt bioware went out there and told them to shut down SWG because there can be only one star wars mmo! that rather sounds like serious force business to me  :)

SWTOR is Lucasarts. There can be no Star Wars game without LA.

If LA creates another SW MMO, they could then pull the plug on SWTOR too

LA just thought that SWG players would play SWTOR and keep revenue from SWG players still, and / or EA offered LA more money if they shut down SWG, as EA would not get any revenue from SWG players unless SWG players moved to play SWTOR.

EA are good at securing licences, they got the NFL games, and they acquired the licence to Porsche, preventing Turn 10 use Porsche in Forza 4, whereas EA allowed Turn 10 to use Porsche in Forza 3.

Well since SOE holds a SW license for their clone wars game and now Bioware has one, that i truly believe was wasted, maybe they will work with another game company that actually has some forward and actual mmorpg thinking to create a real SW mmo.