The more people that get involved in playing mmo's the harder it will be for any dev company to keep up with content. The mmo's that are still relying on lvl's and end game mechanics are the ones that you see failiing so badly so quickly.

MMORPG's need to be open and allow freedom's that will let a player feel like they are part of the environment. Triple A companies want to copy what has been successful, in which we all know has been WOW. The problem with this way of thinking is that you can't out WOW, WOW, so why try.

I still find it so lazy and dumb that game devs still rely so much on the class/lvl system. it's not realistic in any situation anytime, anywhere. What is realistic is being alound to learn and or drop what you have learned, to learn something new, and the more you do what has been learned the better you get.

Why set a player in a pigeonhole cage, then have them run a treadmill to a certain number as fast as they can only to get to the so called endgame content that will be completed just as fast again.

People are not stupid, some are more lazy than other's but the one thing we all are, is big sponges that will absorb the information needed to do a task then try and do it as fast as possible. I continue to ask why do game devs set, us the players in that frame of mind from the beggining.

It's all really playing the numbers game. They set a number scale that at the end will make your toon be all it can be. Of course people that are faster than other's will get to that top number then sit around and bitch and moan until the next new whatever comes rolling out, and then eats it up just as fast.

So, until games incorporate more sandbox elements and less class/lvl sytems, this genre will have and continue to breed gamejumpers and trolls.

I played the game back in closed beta and the open beta, but still fun to see a train wreck i guess. You know, it only takes a few seconds to know when you stepped in shit. So with that, i can clearly see that my first early impressions were correct.

Originally posted by Velsha

I find it funny that SOE takes 100% of the criticisms for the failure of SWG when Lucas Arts had their hands in it as well.  Please believe me when I say, "Nothing went into SWG without LA's eyes on it first."

Nothing is ever said about the focus groups they held that said "An FPS would be better" and  "Make it more like KOTOR."  I am also someone that was hurt by the NGE, but I believe the hate should be shared between the two companies that guided the changes to the game.  

I hope the new company has some creative control over the project.

 

Where did you pull this way of thinking, out your ass. First, SOE admitted that they were the ones who came up and designed the NGE, then sold the idea to LA. Second and i don't even know where you could have come up with this, but SOE never made the NGE to play like KOTOR.

KOTOR was developed by BioWare, and they are the dev company that is making the new SW mmo, and are partners with LA in this project.

SOE cares about their up and coming games, DC Online and the Agency. Games like Vanguard, EQ, EQ2, SWG, Matrix and all others are just padding and fluff for station access. SOE doesn't and never cared about actually spending lots of time or money on future developement of any game they own. All they care about is how to screw and sqeeze every last nickel out of the paying customer.

Originally posted by jedijef

Originally posted by musicmann

Is it fear i smell, insert new BioWare SW mmo, or the other guys SWG. It's not only a little to late for SOE to be making statements that they are trying to bring back the old magic, but it is retarded for them to think they can stay with the NGE format and think people will be falling over themselves trying to resub with this new crap of a patch.

 

 

To be clear, Sony hasn't said any such thing, those are my words, and I am in no way affiliated with them other than paying my $30.00 - $45.00 a month since launch. The new dev team isn't stupid, they know that they're on a sinking ship, or at best, a very small ship catering to a niche audience, but the point is that this hasn't stopped them from trying to work with what they've been given and improve the game.

For that, they are to be commended, not ridiculed. I have as much reason to hate SOE as any of you, perhaps more (given the amount of time and money I have invested in SWG since beta), but the hate in this thread is misdirected, since nearly everyone responsible for the NGE is no longer there.

The contents of this post do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com and its management.”

Wow, sorry for ruffling your feathers. Smedley is still in charge and that's enough of a reason to not ever play a SOE game again. I feel sorry that you are such a NGE fanboi that you can sit and defend all the wrong doing that SOE still does to it's current customers.

Is it fear i smell, insert new BioWare SW mmo, or the other guys SWG. It's not only a little to late for SOE to be making statements that they are trying to bring back the old magic, but it is retarded for them to think they can stay with the NGE format and think people will be falling over themselves trying to resub with this new crap of a patch.

SOE can screw up a iron ball, and will continue to do buisness as usual on all other games they create. In actuality, do they really seem like a company that gives a rats ass about this particular product. If they did, they wouldn't have changed it in the first place and or would have seen the mistake shortly after the change and changed it back.

It's kinda of funny how they can boast their advancements of SWG, yet are still forcing people to pay for a transfer off one of the 20 out of 25 dead servers, without feeling one bit of guilt.

Does crafting matter in SWG? Not as long as the uber items that are obtained off the the instance boss is still in game, as well as no deacy on anything.

So what that a WS can make a great weapon and it's a bio-link item. Without decay it will last forever and all it really does is keep inflation sky high.

SWG is shot and they know this. They know that their days are numbered and are trying to grasp for anything to keep the little players they have and bring a few more on board until that time comes.

Originally posted by chaintm

Ahh the life of the pre-nge, it seems so many are trying to get the concept going, but what? Nope, no interest at all, with so many fans of the pre-nge crapathon, I figured these sites below would just be busting with excitement.. guess it wasn't that great...

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**********************8

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(links to emulators deleted, sadly this breaks rules of conduct on this site, just search in google for swg precu servers and just follow top to bottom for my excamples, no matter which you goto (I checked over 50), they are all dead except one and that one is on it's last leg now)

 

This search list goes on and on ofcourse but I will save you the link jumping..

Finally I actually found one with umm a community? Thou I think this quote says it all about the actually thoughts of pre-CU or in anycase what real swg has been and still is... "We are all also aware of the “staleness” that has come over the entire emulator community. However, you have to remember that SWG is a very complex game;..." In other words, the game still is broken, will be broken and shall remain broken for in the end the whole engine was broken, but we can look past that can't we? Whatever you guys like to think, as crappy as the NGE is today, the pre-cu was just as crappy. Sure I openly admit there were fun "parts" to it, but nothing that kept me playing all the time.

The simple fact here is SWG failed from day one, it's membership should have been a huge influx of new people into the genre and I think in the end that is what everyone forgets (or ignores). StarWars is a HUGE IP, if not the largest known and biggest fanbase to date. To only come up with a top count of 360k at one time is sad compaired to the millions of fans they should have had and I think in the end, that is what lucas arts seen. I wouldn't doubt there were number crunchers saying "look, we sold this battlefront peice of crap to over two million customers, swg should be giving us those numbers easy! It needs to be changed". Then after WOW they really came back to that and said "ok this crap has to change, we are a way larger known IP, we should have those numbers easy" which as arrogant as that thinking is, I beleive that statement to be true. Starwars is a HUGE IP and probably the best one known world wide. Quote me now if you like, but KOTRO I beleive will bypass a 5mil mark easy and not effect WOW one bit. (well maybe a little, but the SW IP is big and I think many look past that aspect of this whole swg issue)

For the pre-cu fans, eh whatever, the game sucked then and pretty much sucks now, for awhile I thought it had possibilites, (for awhile at least) till it just went down the tubes again, there is no saving this game in any shape it just was bad code from day one. Concept was cool, give it that, but execution? Horrible.

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Your an idiot, plain and simple. The reason why most all the so called, other SWG communities are gone, is because they have been consolidated into only 2 main parties.

Both have been hard working on this thing and one even has a test server. It's kind of funny i can log in and do a search and hit more people then the crappy NGE on any given server during a free vet trial.

While SWG from the beggining lacked alot of actual SW content, it made up for that in the innovative playstyle that set itself apart from every other mmo.

It had enough SW background to make a player feel like they were part of SW in a everyday situation. Like so many other's, i could give a rats ass about being one of the dozen or so main characters that were portrayed in any of the movies.

It was about choice, freedom and a social aspect that hasn't been topped in any other mmo to date. The game had it's flaws for sure, and everyone will admit that.

The game would have been topshelf if SOE would have been a better developer and not taken the easy way and let bug issues, lack of vision and greed take control.

It's kind of funny that most of the same bugs that were in at launch are still in today. Their lack of vision , about how to actually create compelling SW scenarios and their constant bait and switch routine, coupled with their constant disregard for canon, even though LA had some to do with that with trying to push the new movies, led them to the situation they are in today.

A mmo that is a barren wastland except for maybe 1 or 2 servers. A mmo that has well over 200k of  former origional players that are still talking about it everyday since the game has been changed, and is still as pissed off about the whole situation.

I will say this to BioWare/LA. If they think they can make a pure story driven SW mmo that is pure linear and has very few options and it will succeed, they are gonna be in for a surprise.

If they have done their homework and is makinga mmo that has deep SW story avenues, that will allow a player to choose to go down that path or make their own, ( meaning more sandbox elements that will allow the player to do whatever and explore as they please), then they will have succeeded in making a SW mmorpg that will make everyone happy.

This bickering back and forth is pointless.

  SWG pre-cu = Innovative gameplay, very tight community with sprinkles of SW thrown in. EMU anyone?

  SWG/NGE = Crap, pure and simple. On it's last leg.

  SWOR = Hopefully a new and innovative MMO that will bring the immense SW world to life.

Originally posted by Warmaker

So... I guess the purpose of this thread is a Captain Obvious Thread?

I mean, we KNEW the game had issues back then, despite us liking the Pre-CU system.

And the point is?...

Originally posted by Moaky07

 SW means action...not Uncle Ben sitting in a cantina watching an Ent.

 EDIT hah meant Owen...watched Spider-man other day. Goes to show ya...he had such a minor role cant even get his name right EDIT

I had to reread your last reply, becuase right here is where we get to the heart of the matter.

You're an NGE fanboi.

Your last part from this post proves it through and through.  Those are the same exact words the idiotic devs of SOE used to justify their implementation of the NGE.

I'll leave it with this:

So, IF Star Wars was solely about action, and the NGE sought to remedy the "lack of action" from the Pre-CU / CU systems, then WHY haven't the players that left with the passing of the "lack of action" system been replaced yet?

I like the way you think. Clean and smooth. I honestly do believe that he or she is a SW fan at heart, and that is to be noticed.

It comes down to this really. Out of all the things that SWG did right, SOE never ever really captured the lore and feeling of the immense SW universe.

I can only hope that whatever the new SW mmo has, BioWare/La have learned their lessons, and will make a finished and polished game. I would love for BioWare to step a little out of their element and have some sandbox elements thrown in with their talent for story telling.

If not, that will be ok. I'm a SW fan through and through and the first reason i picked up SWG was because it was SW. Then  shorly after i started i fell in love with the gameplay.

As i just posted, SWG wasn't for everyone, and that is ok.

I honestly don't see the point of this thread. Anyone can dig up 5 yr. old negative posts about SWG at launch. Just like anyone out of the 250 to 300K can pull up the positive posts from that time.

Not one and i mean not anybody that has played from beta to launch all the way through to the CU has ever thought the game was finished and didn't have it's share of bugs, unbalance issue's and lack of deep SW content.

The thing is, even with it's flaws, the things that were done right were amazing and way ahead of it's time in the mmo genre. I don't think out of any other mmo's i have played, that had a better community than in the pre-cu days.

It's funny how SOE had a gem in the rough and didn't even realize it. So many mmo players today are looking for what SWG pre-cu had. This is the reason you have all these up and coming mmo's like, Earthrise, Mortal Online, Darkfall and a slue of others that all have the open sandbox/skill system being implemented.

MMO players are just tired of the hampster on the wheel class/lvl crap that has infected most dev companies for way to long. 

To the OP,it's fine you didn't like the origional gameplay. It wasn't for everyone and that is ok . For the people that liked it, it was a dream mmo that offered alot.

You guys make me laugh with this 2011 and 12 stuff. Bioware opened it's Austin office in the beggining of 2006, for the sole purpose of creating their mmo. Do you really think that it will take them 5 or even 6 yrs. to complete it. This isn't Aventurine and Darfall.

I'm not a tech guy by any means, maybe someone else can explain this better,but i do know they are using the hero's engine. They said it cuts the development time in half if i'm not mistaken.

We still have 5 months and almost all of next yr., so a late 2009 release is very possible. I wouldn't expect any type of announcement until the new movie hits the theaters or sometime right after the new yr.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by MikeMB

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by thenetavenge

Originally posted by darquenblade

Originally posted by severius

It's very amusing to watch the defenders of SOE trying to place the blame for the NGE on anyone but SOE.  The only one's who try foist the blame for the NGE on LA are these defenders.  Face the facts, the NGE was developed in house by SOE, it was SOE that convinced the Lucas Arts people that "no one wanted to be Uncle Owen or Aunt Beru, and everyone wanted to be Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader."  It was SOE that forced it down the gaming public's throat and it was the players that said "up yours SOE".

 

What's also amusing is when people bring up SOE's incompetence, they only refer to the NGE.

SOE failed with the Star Wars franchise from the very beginning, starting with the poorly designed pre-CU game that eventually brought about the NGE change in the first place.

 

The first six months after release were 'hard' on the game, as it was still a beta product. Jan of the next year the game was pretty stellar and a year later had 500,000 sub numbers in an MMO market that most titles had 200,000.

The original developres 'knew' what they were doing and still are look upon as 'gods' of MMOs as they brought the whole 'social' and 'living' in the Virtual World to an MMO fro the first time. This is why previous SWG players are still so passionate, because they didn't lose a game, they lost a virtual place they lived, something no other MMO has successfully created, even WoW.

WoW wouldn't of had the success it had if it weren't for SOE continually screwing over customers. EQII they screwed customers, and SWG they were good to people up to the CU and then the new teams of the time were freaking awful, and it was evident that SOE didn't care anymore. (When the original developers jumped ship the writing was on the wall SOE was screwing over the game and it was going to get worse - hence the massive developer defectors after JTL as the next addtions to the game conflicted with the original design goals (these being the CU).

If nothing else Blizzard could see what NOT to do with an MMO and that is what they did. Of all the SWG players that left more than 70% of them still play WoW, even if not their main MMO, and even though many don't like being hand fed missions like a 5 yr old, at least WoW is fairly stable and Blizzard listens to the people playing first and foremost.

If Bioware brings their KOTOR knowledge with the 'social' and sandbox concepts to the new Star Wars, it will be the next WoW, as Bioware does care about customers to a painful level, even hurting themselves to make sure what they create is loved.

 

 

500k subs....in SWG?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Would love to see proof on that claim.

The largest North American MMO before WoW was EQ, at a rumored 450k in its heyday. So how is it SWg had more subs?

It didnt...thats how.

The rumors were 300 to 350k at launch...steadily downhill from there.

At no point was it cited that SWG was bigger than EQ. If it had surpassed EQ, the news would of been everywhere.

If I recall my numbers right this is what we had back when SWG launched till about 2004.

Worldwide I believe the biggest MMO was Lineage 1, a game that hit about a Million Players. In the U.S. it was EQ at around 450k to 500k depending on whom you hear your story from. EQ even in 2002 did sell insanely well that much I can tell ya. At the time I was working at Best Buys out here in Mesa (the storys I can tell too) and we did sell out of Everquest now and then. Granted in 2002 the basic EQ cd went for about $15 Dollars, the boxed set with everything went for about $55 I believe... I do remember we had to restock the shelfs on EQ about once a week tho.

Asheron's Call didn't do too badly, most of the time Asheron's Call along with Dark Age of Camelot sold to people who did play EQ or UO and wanted a change.

UO did well, and UO my main MMO, mostly due to me being an Old School Ultima fan, first RPG I got to play way back in the day was Ultima 4:Quest of the Avatar on my Mom's old Apple IIC. Again depending on whom you talk to UO back before Trammel came out was pulling about 100k, but like SWG word had it that UO was bleeding Subs, lost a TON after EQ came out. When Trammel came out, we had to restock the new UO boxes every other week or so. I believe UO's Player Peak was in 2003 with Age of Shadows, UO had hit about 250k Players. Same number SWG pulled after launch...

I can say this much about SWG, it did do well in it's first few weeks. The drop off point however was with Final Fantasy 11. I know Final Fantasy 11 did pull in a ton of U.S. Players. Worldwide it had a very big number as well.

Still SWG never hit half a million subs. The word before the game came out was that SWG would be the first U.S. based MMO to hit the Million Subs/Players mark. However it just never came to pass. Many of the gamers I know from both real life and UO ended up Playing for a Month then qutting or going over to Final Fantasy 11.

 

Actually the word before SWG launched was that is was a flaming POS. You can go to sites like FOH, till this very day , to dig up posts on it.

That is why folks like me didnt bother to even try it until later...hoping they would have it cleaned up.

I finally broke down and  bought the set that included rage of the wookie..the one that come with a Barc. Figured why not...only 30 bucks and can put it on my all access pass.

UGGGGGGGGGGGG....talk about a waste of money. Tried again with NGE...once more it sucked.

I dont subscribe to  MMOs to play Sims games. Let alone the laundry list of things I have stated over the years I didnt care for.

Bottom line is that once the NDA was lifted, SWg became its own worse enemy before launch. After launch it only got worse.

There are folks who think SWG was the greatest thing since sliced bread. The problem being, most MMO players dont agree with em.

See the thing is, you never played SWG pre-cu. If you bought the game with the wookie xpac, you started playing in the combat upgrade.

It was only around for like 6 months and then came the NGE. The CU brought in so much crap and took away so much of the origional game. It wasn't even the combat revamp that was talked and discussed, but a bait and switch from SOE, only not as harsh as the NGE.

The origional game had it's flaws for sure, but is still a body of work that was way way ahead of it's time.

Originally posted by cepolly

on another note, i think they use the term mmorpg way too freely.

we all know what mmorpg means and what it is supposed to stand for. if what i am hearing about ToR is true, then it is not a true mmorpg. it is a mmofps with a spattering of other things to make it seem like a pure mmorpg, like the nge.

See this is the problem with speculating about something that hasn't even been presented to the public. Nobody but EA/LA/BioWare knows what they have and what they have not been developing.

There's definitly some articles that are floating around that contain speeches and insight on Rich Vogul and Gordon Walton's feelings and ideas on what they like and dislike about past and current mmo's.

We can all sit around and come up with a million reason's why the new SW mmo should be a SWG2 or anything that resembles pre-cu.

This type of thinking though, is backwards and non productive. I can only make an educated guess, that these guys want to make a new mmo that has innovation spewing out of it from every direction.

Some developers want to sit back and copy whatever is the hottest mmo on the market, which of course is WOW. Like i've always said, you can't out WOW, WOW. We have all seen how by being a follower and not a innovator, can turn a great IP or concept into a giant lame duck.

I loved SWG pre-cu. To be honest though, every other SW game i've played made me feel like i was more a part of the SW world than it ever could have.

For a simulation game, the origional SWG was top notch, even with the bugs and such. For bringing SW to life, it failed miserably.

If and this is a big if, this new SW mmo can capture both the story and lore of the immense SW world with allowing the players to either follow that story or make their own, with sandbox abilities, then it will be a huge step forward in the mmo genre and a huge win win for all SW fans.

I think a new SW mmo that has both elements would be perfect. The biggest problem that SWG had was that it was brilliant in the sandbox department, but lacked in capturing the full scope of the giant SW world.

Create a SW mmo that gives the payer the option to follow a story or make their own and you will have success.

The honest truth is that , the origional SWG never delivered on bringing the massive SW world to life. Raph created one of the most exciting sandbox systems ever. Other than that though, the game actually failed in being a SW game.

I truly think that what most who played in the origional system loved, was not so much the SW element but the sandbox. You could have instead of SW, injected any IP or whatever and it would have had the same affect.

It just made it all the better because it did have SW in it, just not alot of it. Can you place all the blame on SOE, not really. LA followed SOE right off the cliff with the NGE and has had egg on their face ever since.

From what all the past devs and head honcho's at SOE admitted, it doesn't take much to see that they created the NGE, and got LA on board.

It also doesn't take much to see that by LA coming togeither with BioWare on this new mmo, LA has lost all confidence in SOE when it comes to developing anything SW.

This partnership with LA may turn out to be a blessing or a monumental failure. If both have done their homework, sat back and honestly decided to create a new mmo that captures the full scope of the SW world, with tons of exploration, nail biting pvp, true SW content and well laid out social system, the game in my eyes will be a homerun.

If they sit back and make a copy of a copy of all the other copies of WOW, if will fail and be even a bigger black eye on the SW name.

Let's all hope and pray that this tandum is in it for creating a truly innovative new mmo. One that will finally be able to please the majority across the board. I always ask, why can't it be everything to everyone that will play. Why can't it have engaging pvp, that actually means changing the surroundings at the outcome of an event.

Why can't it be both group and single player friendly. Why can't it have strong story driven content and yet still have sandbox systems that allows the player to be able to choose to follow the story or make their own.

I honestly believe that LA/Bioware when it is all said and done will deliver one of the most amazing and truly innovative mmo's that has ever been created.

I just went back and read some of Gordon Waltons ideas and his speech on making an mmo post WOW. I think this is were alot of people are getting that this new mmo will be nothing more than a WOW clone.

While he did praise Blizzard for creating a highly polished game, he talked even more about innovation and how it would be bad to just sit back and make a WOW clone.

He talked about his mission in any mmo is to give the player a game that is exciting and extremly fun. He also talked about sandbox and directed content. He said while sandbox has it's place, so does directed content. He said that a game shouldn't give players to many choices, i think the number he used was like 10. He said 4 would be ideal in an mmo.

On a whole, the article was a good read and it let's you get an idea on how one of the top guys at BioWare thinks in mmo terms.

This is where i think alot of people are getting off track on this new mmo. LA/Bioware are not gonna try and copy any game that is on the market at this time. These guys, especially BioWare are all about pushing the envelope and innovation, not copycating anything.

Going off Walton's ideas, one could get the feeling that this new SW mmo would be all story with no sandbox elements. I tend to believe that LA/BioWare has done alot of sitting back and watching the mmo market over the last 3 yrs.

I think they are smart enough to know that you can't out WOW, WOW. I think they know that you can't make a game like AOC with super duper high graphics, that is ultra instanced at every turn.

I'm also pretty sure they have watched how SWG/NGE has pretty much gone belly up. So what does this all mean. Well personally, i think we will get a game that fits in the huge scope of the SW universe instead of SW fitting in the small scope of a mmo.

This doesn't mean i think it will be this huge open sandbox mmo. Nor do i think it's gonna be this linear WOW copycat. These people know to have a successful game, they will have to have the best elements of sandbox and directed content times 10.

Yea, the poll is pointless without the facts on the game that BioWare has been making. I still find it rather disturbing that alot of folks still seem to think that the new mmo would be just a cookie cutter WOW/NGE clone. I will take bets that LA/BioWare is trying to create a game that surpasses anything that is on the market today. Some select few dev companies like BW push the envelope, not take the easy road and copy what is out there at the moment.

You guys with your sub numbers and buisness models make me laugh. First off, LA owns the IP not the game itself. The only thing LA makes money off of is probably a flat fee that SOE pays them each yr. for letting them use the SW brand.

Whatever the gross profit is at the end of the yr., SOE is the one that has to figure out what their net profit will be, after all is said and done.

Remember, SOE is the one that has to maintain servers and pay a dev staff. On top of the regular expenses, such as insurance, building note/lease, utilites, energy costs, and a whole lot more.

I honestly don't think LA gives two cents about SOE or SWG anymore. If they did, they would have pushed SOE to do a major marketing blitz, and we all know that hasn't happened.

SWG will eventually die off when LA/BioWare has a more formal announcement, and more info on how the game mechanics will be laid out. I just can't see LA letting two SW mmo's compete against each other.

 LA knows the NGE was a massive failure and is the biggest reason i think that instead of them pushing SOE to create a new SW mmo they went with a company like BioWare.

They let themselves get talked into ok'ing the changes in SWG and now are sitting with egg on their face and a tarnashed SW brand in the gaming world.

Only time will tell who is on the mark when it comes to what is actually gonna take place.

SWG will will probably not be shut down until a more official annoucment is made. I can't see LA having 2 SW mmo's in direct competition of each other, especially with the cost of the new game being some outragous figure.

Let's also look at the other guys SWG that is being done. Could it be, that there has been no legal recourse taken against them because LA is throwing everything into this new mmo and knowing SOE will lose it's liscense considers that other version to be the same as a SW fan film, which is an individual or individual's interpretation of an existing IP.

These are things that only time will tell.

i still don't think Bioware has to make a mmo that is a pre-cu clone to make all the vets happy. SWG while it had it's great moments and i loved every bit of it, never ever felt like SW. Honestly the only time it truly felt like SW to me atleast was when i kneeled infront of a shrine and became a jedi.

If the new mmo has a indepth character, clothing and weapon customization. A solid crafting system, big planets and space with lots of exploration and a interdependent social environment, this game will be amazing.