Originally posted by jaxsundane 

The biggest problem I have with the entire "wow clone" argument is that it's a largely baseless and irrelevant topic that is only used as a blanket statement to convey that the particular product did not excite that person enough to not recieve criticism.  Let me say it this way, what offline/console RPG did you play that was radically different from the others?  I've played most of them from KOTRO,FF,Phantasy Star,Star Ocean and the list goes on and on.

Many of these games shared features and the prevelant complaint was rarely "this is a <insert last game here> clone!"  for one the audience was younger and I think still more open about what they found to be "fun" about playing video games, I can really only speculate here.  But the point remains most video game genres use very similar systems to each other and for myriad reasons only mmo players whine and moan over "cloning".

Maybe MMOs don't have to be exclusively RPG. RPG is just one part of the MMO experience and there is no reason why there shouldn't be MMOFPSs, MMORTSs or even MMOracingsims. Single player games offer many different ways to play, from game mechanics to settings, so it is very different from the current situation in the MMO space.

What you have now is extremely limited playground only with different kinds of swings, and honestly, swings are kind of a grind. 

Even the RPG genre is poorly represented, where are Oblivions and Mass Effects that offer that core roleplaying mechanic using different mechanics and settings? And I mean done well and worth playing, not something you need to finance until it gets to a playable state.

At least that's my take on it, stop looking at RPGs as the only way to do an MMO.

Originally posted by Revenus

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Options for griefing would just be too available to allow such a thing.

 

Imagine the gold adds visa vi voice chat, that would be a whole new world of nuts.

*shudders*

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by altairzq 

 

Could you say what features? only Achivements come to mind, but I didn't play GW, WAR or AoC so I don't know. And what is from Aion in Cataclysm?

Arena was added for the GW players, Achievements, phasing and Wintergrasp for the WAR players and Since I havent tried Cat yet I have no comment on Aion players unless blizzard plans to add in Flight combat.

There was talk about in flight combat for WotLK, but what we got was couple PVE quests where you shoot NPCs.

 Never had a problem with WoW's voice chat... actually, I had some problems with my friend not using his mic properly, but that's besides the point. It always worked, and worked well, in groups, in arenas, also just doing quests.

But I never wished for options OP wants, I would just /mute everyone anyway if that was possible. Options for griefing would just be too available to allow such a thing.

 I miss exploration and sense of discovery, that's why I'm taking a break until Cataclysm.

 Here's an interview with Jeff Strain about his new company Undead Labs and their upcoming console only zombie MMO.

Destructoid.com

Not much said there, but he talks the talk, now let's just see how well they can code the code. WoW turned out OK, Guild Wars did good too, so there's some reason to be optimistic.

 Stratholme, still my favourite dungeon and visually most impressive part of the game. I still remember the first time I got there and still have some screenshots I took that time. The burning city, falling ash, red sky, the whole place, I was never again impressed by any other place in WoW like that time.

 It's true in the way that theory was presented in the article, not true in the way people who didn't read the article are arguing.

 Listening isn't the same as giving you everything you want, that's just modern day parenting.

 Nothing?! Not even a troll attempt?  Well, that's just strange.  

  I had an idea that goes something like this

 I had an idea that goes something like this

I would like it to have something like the wrathgate questchain where you are awarded by an ingame cinematic and maybe some phasing magic thrown into it. 

For the longest time now I want to see the bosses of end game raids but I just can't stomach the raiding end game. I don't need loot and I don't need the achievements, I just want to see the fights and little story tidbits that are only available when facing the boss. I don't want to be forced to watch the crappy videos on youtube with comments in whatever language and awful music that always goes with something like that.

So what i was thinking about is some kind of optional quest chain with minor rewards, maybe reputation, or pet or something other non loot oriented, but with good lore payoff.

Those that want loot and recognition should be free to seek it, but all I want is to see what happened when they did it. I don't literally mean that i want to watch them do it, but some NPCs would be enough where my model could be used in a cinematic, or I could be far back in a phasing scenario but be able to experience it passively.

So, what do you think, is anyone else interested in something like this?

Quality issues?

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Again, you are misunderstanding because you do not see beyond the surface. Maybe you do, but it doesn't seem like it.

The ATMOSPHERE that WoW has created breeds a self-destructive community. This ATMOSPHERE has been replicated through copying material from WoW. The material in question is the ease of which an individual can 'accomplish' without actually accomplishing anything. The atmosphere I'm talking about is that, by it's very nature, a community is this vestigial thing. WoW is a world of individuals being rewarded for denying those around them. This is a problem, a real problem.

Did I say that the community in WoW was any worse than any other mmo? No. If anything I said that the problems that create these communities stem from WoW, but that doesn't mean that the community itself is any better or worse - just the original source.

Similarly, by so easily handing things to people you do create a massive disease of complacency. People don't feel the need to improve because there is no reason to. Difficulty to obtain something does NOT need to equate to the time it takes to get it and in fact, strictly speaking, does not. Of course there are system-specific (code) restrictions on just how much player skill you can involve in difficulty. There is a strict limit on just how good a person can be within that system. You can learn to time attacks, plan movements and potions only to a point. This isn't like Soul Caliber or King of Fighters or some such where the system-limited cap on just how good a player can be is extremely high.

However, there is still quite a lot that can be done. The only reason why it isn't is because whenever Blizzard has tried people have rejected it. This is PRIMARILY their own fault by creating this atmosphere of complacency in the first place. People have gotten so used to not having to improve to 'achieve' that when content is introduced that would force them to there is a massive public outcry.

 

PS - This is why  I quit WoW and will never return. I used to play a rogue and I prided myself on having a strong desire to improve in both pve and pvp. I never had the desire to be a top pvp'er, though to be honest I could have been if I had bothered to grind through to face like-minded people. In pve rogues had (and I believe still have) to time rotations perfectly and be able to adapt to your environment very quickly. This became a problem for me because even though I constantly topped out dps charts throughout BT I had to struggle to do so. And close behind (within .01% usually) would be a lock who just facerolled their keyboard. I continued into WotLk, but then with that insane paladin buff...well, most of you know the end of this story. There became little point to trying to improve when there were classes that could use three buttons and just destroy everything.

Hahaha, you're funny.

 *responding to the title*

Hehe, not with that level of bugs in a small single player only game.

 Hahahaha, oh man!   

 RED 5 Studio  talk some seriously awesome talk, but it'll be a while until we can actually see something.

 Torchlight MMO!!!

Uh, hmmm, no?! Well, back to the drawing board.

Originally posted by Josher

 It might have some sandboxy elements like good ways for players to create quality content, but it won't be a sandbox.  No way in hell.  They actually want to make money and a sandbox won't make them enough.  It might make a 10 man indy company some money, but not Blizzard.  They're too big to take that gamble.

Like others have said, Blizzard makes fun games first.  Sandboxes generally aren't games and sometimes just aren't fun.  Blizzard likes people to have a consistent high quality experience and thats not a sandbox at all.   Sandboxes don't provide any sort of consistent experience, which is why most people don't find them fun.   10 people playing a sandbox could provide 10 different experiences and thats a bad thing for Blizzard.  Its about quality control and in a sandbox, the developer hands that control over.  The players just do what they want for better or worse.  Look at how people bitch and moan when something doesn't go EXACTLY right in WOW.   These people can't tolerate a sandbox where everything can go wrong all the time and its often by design or by accident=)  Imagine if Blizzard told someone, "Yes, in our game other players can basically prevent you from ever leaving the starter area."  If you can't hack it, quit."  OR, "Yes, we're going to let you figure out how to play.  There is no tutorial.  Theres no right or wrong."  "If you want a map or an explaination for anything, go look it up online."  Yeah, that'll go over really well=)

 

Interesting opinion about what makes a sandbox game.

 You have to stop looking at it like a game and more like investment banking, that is if you find investment banking fun.