Even if you want to give the basic premise a shot (BIG if), just how suspenseful are "zombies" going to be in a universe with killer androids, light sabers, sith and jedi, and ships that can destroy a planet form orbit?!  A "zombie outbreak" would last 11 seconds.  How would a "zombie" manage to chew through storm trooper body armor?! LOL

I played EQ from release.  People really have a magic with letting nostalgia just happily recreate history.  From day 1 until present people did nothing but complain about EQ.  Most often the complaints were with the same difficulty and learning curve that the vocal minority continue to insist were "the charm".

Every time a developer attempts to even go NEAR the difficulty level of EQ the game is a commercial failure.  The fact is, most of the people who claim the "want those days back" are full of crap and just want to sit on message boards moaning about "the good ole days" like old timers in some dive bar.

Actual paying customers dont want a game experience to be akin to torture.  Hence the "training wheels" games are enormous commercial successes.  It never ceases to amaze me what a complex explanation (bordering on idiotic) people are willing to create to explain that when the simple answer is right there.  People play WoW by the millions not because they are "idiots who don't know better" not because they are "all tards" (all 10M+... LOL)  not because they are "brainwashed by the big evil CORPORATE MACHINE" not even because they are slaves to the WoW branding (although that at least is semi plausible for at least a chunk of the subs).  The reason people play, though, is because the game isnt so incredibly difficult, looks good enough, runs well enough, is fun, and gives a sense of progression with minimal effort.  Thats what people want.

The 100,000 people who want to be HARD BOILED *still* play EQ.  The rest dont play ANYTHING and just sit and complain on message boards.

"grind" has got to be the most overused term in the sadly tired dreck that passes for MMO discourse.

"grind" is basically defined as "whatever I dont like"

Its moronic.  If someone wants/needs to hate  a game, they will say it is "a grind".  When asked what ISNT a grind, they will either talk about their own grand, pie in the sky, Star Trek holodeck fantasy MMO of the future that wont exist in our lifetime, or they will point to whatever game THEY happen to love which, not coincidentally, has 100000 people claiming IT is a mindless grind.

I love WoW, EQ2, CoH, VG and even my memories of EQ1.  Those are probably my MMO career high points.  To a lesser extent I  enjoyed DAoC, LoTRO, EVE, DDO, MO,  SWG,  and AoC.    I even got my toe in the water on WAR, a bunch of the free ones and, back in the day, UO, AO, AC, AC2, Horizons, SB, DnL, L2 etc.

With NO EXCEPTIONS... ALL OF THESE have been referred to by SOME armchair genius as "mindless grinders" at one time or another.  Its just an utterly usless critique but I suspect it will just NEVER go away.

Anything YOU dont enjoy doing YOU will define as a grind and YOU will feel that the whole world MUST agree.  But the whole world will NOT agree.  Some will and some will think you're an idiot.  In turn, what THEY feel is a "grind" YOU may love.  This isnt so hard.  Why are people so incapable of comprehending this and moving on?

VERY similar with "item malls".  Any "problem" with it exists in your OWN head.  The ONLY exception is if there are items that given huge advantage in PvP and are ONLY available from "the mall".  I cant think of one example where a game has done that though (even the asian mall based games)

Originally posted by whatamidoing

Originally posted by robertb

Originally posted by whatamidoing

I think Darkfall is just a great example of the trend I spoke of. Also, this may be the case for a lot of MMOs, maybe all of them, but not to the degree of Darkfall, or Dark and Light, or to a lesser degree AoC (specifically it's launch). Listen, the point im trying to make is that in the MMO market specifically you have this trend of sub-par games coming out that were supposed to be not only good but the next best thing...So, the real question is how does a trend like this get reversed? I'm not sure, but I suppose it would have to start with the consumers.

 

Apparently you missed the part where I said I played the game.  And to resond to your other statement, see above paragraph.

 

To me, it is not a question of specific trends, or of  a game being "the next best thing" that makes any difference regarding the basic reason I play games.

I simply ask myself whether or not I am, in fact, enjoying the time I spend playing it.

In the end, that is the only thing that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

So you never question whether or not the game could be improved or that it should have been a lot better? Even if you are that easy to please, perhaps a little thought into some flaws that could be improved wouldn't hurt? It's this pathetic mentality to just settle and not even think about what you're doing or the world around you that gets to me. It's what makes game developers lazy (and for a good reason since they still continue to profit) and it just snowballs from there. No progress is made. But hey man, just have some fun!! That's what it's all about!! The game's perfect I'm sure though anyways so maybe you don't need to voice any opinion about the game you're paying $15 a month for. Thank god you found the promise land and for such a low monthly rate? Can't beat that...

 The only truly amazing thing to me is how often this pathetic trend repeats.  Its just mind boggling that people like Tasos can continue to win such large numbers of naive people who actually believe that one lone dreamer can produce "the MMO the world has NEVER SEEN"

It really borders on abject stupidity.  No game genre is as unforgiving on the dev team as the MMO.  It is just an incredibly hard thing end to end.  Can an indy director make a great movie?  Yes.  But can they make The Watchmen? No.  Same concept.  A lone schmuck with a dream isnt going to give you your Startrek Holodeck (that so many seem to desperately want).

The reason Dark and Light, Horizons, Vanguard, Shadowbane and on and on and on and on all have the EXACT same story as Darkfall is because there are people who DESPERATELY are seeking some kind of alternate existance in a game and are drawn LIKE FLIES to the MMO genre (obviously)  They just cant accept that the technology isnt there and that even if it were, the economics arent there because MOST PEOPLE are just not that hung up on so badly NEEDING that level of escapism.  But what IS out there are enterprising producers (scamsters in some ways) who KNOW that by putting up a promise laden website, a bunch of hyperbole, a pile of Photochops and a forum, they WILL attract a fanbase.  Enough fans and they make actually get some VC from some idiot who hasnt learned yet.  Then they can get on the road to FAIL.

This isnt about "lazy devs" at all.  Its about unrealistic expectations from a tiny market segment that is almost BEGGING to be taken advantage of. 

If any of the features on the list were IN DEMAND and were REALLY doable WoW would have them.  Love that game or hate it, only a real moron would deny that Blizzard has the wealth and power (AND control over their destiny) to do ANYTHING currently technologically possible IF there were enough demand for it.

The fact is, most games like Darkfall promise "The Matrix" and end up being virtual serial killer simulators for the handful of bottom feeders that get off on that due to various psychological problems that they have and have yet to confront in RL.  What else COULD they be???  Like "Tasos" is going to be the guy that builds Skynet level AI on 6 figure VC funding.  LOL, yeah ok.

Originally posted by Zodan

DF rocks, it's quite demanding though if you take it like that but it can be played casually as well. Sounds like the game you are looking for to play 0 to 3 hours is not an mmo so it would be best to find some casual games instead of the online ones.

I have LESS time than the OP to play, but I love MMOs.  Been playing them since before at least some of the people on these forums were born, most likely.  I go back to Meridian 59 and have played nearly every MMO release for at least a few levels to see what it was about.

The smartest posts on this thread were those by folks pointing out that no consequence, FFA PVP = fail.  Robert seems to indicate that everything is fine with DF and there are PLENTY of consequences and everyone needs to "man up".  Im suspecting that he is full of BS and that the OP is accurate.  It's just common sense and no one "defending" DF seems to point out HOW the OP is wrong.  WHAT are these "big consequences"?  If there WERE real consequences, why would they have to "man up"? They wouldnt.

The original UO was a broken gank-fest.  I hated it.  This sounds the same.  So the UO comparo is specious.  UO was fixed later, and maybe this will be also, but by then 10 people will be left playing (at most)

I have a LOT of fun playing WoW EVERY day with no drama or emotional angst.  So there is NO reason the OP cant "play an MMO" and sould find "casual games instead of online ones" as your snide comment suggests (I notice lots of the DF defense posters are really snide a-holes - says a lot)

People moan and groan about WoW.  Well it has 10M subs.  DF will have very, very few.  So to the defenders of these weird, extreme, "cater to 1%" playstyles, enjoy the endless treadmill of game after game being over promised, underdelivered, economically not viable and utterly failing.  I guess the "real fun" (outside of naked gank fests) is in hyping and then flame warring on forums.

You can replace DarkFall with "Shadowbane" and the threads would be identical.   For "no holds barred open PVP" to be remotely fun, and not devolve into roaming gangs of naked morons ganking everything in sight (sound familiar?), a LOT of work and dev energy has to be put into the FRAMEWORK of the SOCIETY.  That has really NEVER been done TRULY well outside of EVE.  Given that the feature itself is one that just not all that many PAYING CUSTOMERS give a damn about (as evidenced by the fact that the biggest MMOs are really PVE), it is VERY unlikely that big dev money, brain power, effort, and polish will ever go into producing a genuinely effective PVP world.  As a result, most will continue to look (and fail) a lot like DF.

People are too quick to label everything and then, once labeled, base judgments on those labels.

All of these games go the same way.  Irrational hype taken to a fever pitch by various groups of jaded and embittered disenfranchised gamers who "hate" one aspect or another of "all those other crap MMOs"

Once these games limp towards release the trend reverses and you have hyperbolic criticism and hatred of the game and the devs "failure to deliver" battled by a few stalwart fanboys who can never say die.

Does NO ONE tire of this idiot treadmill?

I saw on the thread things being said along the lines "well this is "carebear" or "thats carebear""  That, to me, is the most ridiculous line of reasoning possible.  Something like player housing can't be in because "its carebear"?  There are a huge number of ways something like player housing could be incorporated into a pure PvP environment and bring a TON to the game, but the problem is so many folks are narrow minded and laser focused on what they think is absolute truth.  In trying to please ALL of these myopic folks (who are always in conflict with each other) devs set themselves up for complete failure.  Maybe "pure hardcore PVPers" need to play one of the EXISTING PVP games.  Or maybe play Quake.  Or maybe face that they are a real minority because of the WAY they choose to narrowly define PVP with absolute rigidity.  Personally, I am still waiting to see an MMO implement PVP in a way that isnt a bolt on and yet isnt also a "Fantasy Quake" or a sandbox for virtual sociopaths to get their rocks off.  I wish more dev teams would IGNORE "the community" and go out on a limb and try something that ON THE SURFACE might not really seem like it would appeal to anyone.  Most people are hypocrites in that they convince themselves there is NO WAY they will like something and then end up trying it and actually liking it.  Its human nature.  But most dev teams wouldnt know because they are trying to react to the tiny group of folks who are the "untapped market" who hate WoW.  Unfortunately its an unpleasable market.

Darkfall will almost certainly be just another nearly anonymous MMO entering into a REALLY crowded field to compete for the few folks who are never happy with anything.  Without any kind of license, it doesnt even have the potential to pull in NEW MMO gamers the way LoTR, WAR or even AoC or DDO could and to some extent did.

If DF doesnt become the next Vanguard, Horizons, and on and on, that will be the real surprise. 

Big +! to this comment and the comments about the game engine.

People seem to love to rant in a vacuum with absolutely zero perspective.  EQ2 may have limited customization, but whats better?  And in any event, it IS a limitation of the game engine and this is an unavoidable fact of MMOs - they last so long (if they're good) that technology marches on.

You're supposed to play these games for fun and friendship.  If you're trying to build an alternate life with a "toon" that looks like your vision of a dream hero, you'll probably have to either adjust your expectations or come back to the genre in 20 years.

So many of the rants you find on forums are really rants about the current state of technology.  It also sucks that we dont have warp drive and a pill that cures cancer, but what can you do.  Either get cracking on making one or deal with it.

Im sensing lots of self-righteous hypocrisy here.  I can see that Lufkin was hated, but lets not pretend that a REALLY small comment like "rants are for women!" is some huge deal to all of you.

Its simply not possible for people to be that hypersensitive normally.  If you ARE *that* PC, then you've got some serious issues.

That comment was a typical macho jab that is very common in any circle that is mainly male.  I think any guy and all women realize that and arent deeply hurt when they read it (unless they need counseling)

The vast majority of women think that videogames are a pointless bit of stupidity as it is and fully expect guys to generally be juvenille, so lets not pretend this guy is some raging, dangerous, misogynist based on such a silly LITTLE comment.

The ENDLESS use of "gay" as a pejorative is FAR worse and I dont see anyone getting whipped into that kind of frenzy EVER.

Of course Im sure if this guy Lufkin did that, there would then be  a frenzy.

At least just admit that you hate LUFKIN and its not so much what was said but that HE said it.  Or are all of you going to pretend you've NEVER laughed at sophomoric humor in movies, on TV, from comedians, from friends, etc etc.  You really all sit there ENRAGED at Chris Rock, or Harold and Kumar or pretty much ANY OTHER pop culture comedy, eh?  Yah... OK.

The guy may very well be a jackoff, but its pretty obvious he was going for schtick in that post.  He clearly has embraced the "kick you in the nuts" type internet persona that  SO MANY seem to favor.

The ONLY thing Ill give you is that its probably not appropriate for an official rep to be, well, human, but I consider that unfortunate really.  EVERY corporate communication is sanitized and analyzed by lawyers and HR departments on the LOOKOUT for BS lawsuits (not out of any *real* sensitivity since there is no *real* harm 99% of the time).  I dont really think society is somehow BETTER for this totalitarian political correctness regime we now live under.

Originally posted by HardwareGuy

It's amazing how much people really don't know the human mind.  Online games are never going to be enough for people for very long.

The difference between online "mmo-rpg?"  or whatever you want to call it, and normal console games is the fact that you can only put so much dynamic content... the rest has to be static for the next guy to experience the same crap you just did.

It will never change until developers start hiring people to play NPCs...  or other gamers..  I could be wrong but thats my opinion on it...

Completely correct... But most people arent deep thinkers really.  They just know what they know and know what they want and then when they dont get it they go and complain and argue.

The "problems" with MMOs are completely common sense and anyone should be able to easily see them coming.  Its like screaming that the "problem" with FPS online is that you get shot a lot.  Well yeah, thats the point and there isnt much thats going to change anytime soon. 

MMOs seem to have an emotional lure for many who, I think, are looking to fill some kind of void.  Other genres dont have this lure and so they dont get as fanatic and angry of a fan base.  Only with MMOs do you see such resentment and bitterness leveled at the devs rather than people just floating away to some other hobby.  People actually stick around to torture themselves and complain because their "dream game" is something they actually *need* for some emotional reason, even if they are unable to recognize this in themselves.

This also the obvious reason behind so many ranting about how "SOE *ruined* EQ" or what have you.  Ive played all these games from day one as a GAMER (rather than a fanatic) and no one "ruined" anything.  They're all the same crap, have the same lure, offer roughly the same play mechanic and challenges, havent really changed on any fundamental level since inception, and are all pretty fun if you dont overthink it or expect miracles.  No one changed anything or "ruined" anything.

What ACTUALLY happened is that for some, the first MMO they played was the realization of a DREAM come true for them.  Eventually, however, like all dreams, the reality failed to live up to the expectations.  Its no different, psychologically, then the problem people today have with relationships.  Everyone wants, expects and demands a tailor made version of perfection handed to them because they are special and really really want and "deserve" it.  When reality turns out to fall far short of expectations, they lash out bitterly and unfairly.

People need to step back and be introspective.  If what you've always dreamed about is jacking your brain into the Matrix or walking into a Star Trek holodeck and leaving your mundane existance behind, you might as well start collecting stamps or something.

I know people will complain I am being overly harsh or reading too much into it and that all people really want is a game that isnt "theme park" or "care bear" or "cookie cutter" like "all of the crap today", but when pressed for what they want to see, you basically get a description that includes fully dynamic worlds, fully intelligent NPCs, fully living environments, fully and perfectly scaled challenges, fully perfect simulation of real life with no "ladders" or "fedexing", and on top of that, all of this must also make them feel "special" even though 10,000 people are playing.

If that list matches the list of "all you're asking", then here's a newsflash... That IS ridiculous and IS a big deal and WONT happen.  Essentially you ARE looking for The Matrix (the real one, not the game)

What technology can do today that can still fit in the confines of a game that has to keep 10,000 people happy and be commercially viable is exactly what it IS doing.  Even if a game company DID hire THOUSANDS of actors to "play" NPCs, the game ENGINE would still need to somehow be able to create endlessly dynamic content, maintain a living timeline, simulate a real ecosystem and somehow keep everyone happy and playing and challenged and entertained without rewarding some too much and without leaving anyone out.  To do that would require basically just simulating an actual world 100%.  It just cant be done.

If, on the other hand, all you want is a sandbox for player created content, then you dont want an MMO... You want something like NWN.  How can a persistant world possibly accomodate player GMs and not result in a game that thrills some, pisses MANY off and is hugely exploited? 

When people say they want an MMO where the players have the ability to "steer" the world, they are either talking about the dream MMO that cant exist where you just live a real life (and somehow, EVERYONE gets to be king - wonder how that will work even if the world COULD be simulated???), or they are talking about the NWM style sandbox. 

There is no "half way" because these issues go to the very foundation of the game mechanic.  Either you can fully simulate a dynamic world, or you cant.  Right now, the devs do ALL that can be done with current technology.  Why do some of you think that no one comes out with the dream game?!  Did it never dawn on you that it just CANT be done?

Originally posted by Stevesan

"Sounds more like mmorpgs are not for you anymore."

Yes, all those THEMEPARK MMORPGs that are out there and that are incoming are not for me, that is absolutely correct. But that doesnt count for me and MMORPGs in general. I am just so damn tired of the same handfull of features that are in those games nowadays. If u just use your imagination a bit, there could be so many nice things to be tried in an mmo that the list quickly can grow endless.

All that is done at the moment is to milk licenses. But none of the games that have been released really drove the genre forward. And sorry to throw in Ultima Online again; Compare the featurelist of what u can do in UO and what u can do in any game that came afterwards (exclude AC, Neocron and EVE maybe from that list, and some lowbudget projects), than you must see that all of them were a big step backwards. I am just asking for a step forward, nothing more nothing less. And this process of milking the same concept over and over again will go on  till even the most stupid financial guy found out that its now time to try something new. So you may call me impatient but not  a nay-sayer.

Well we will discuss SGW a few months after launch anyways. I will even press my thumbs for the game, but i doubt that it will be a step forward...

I've been reading comments like this - the whole "nothing new! same old same old! when will we get (insert laundry list of dream features)" - rant, since literally the dawn of MMOs back in the Meridian 59 era.

Yes, for some people, nothing short of a Star Trek holodeck or the Matrix (not the game, but the actual Matrix) will satisfy them.  Until they can literally remove themselves from their actual life and lead a fully realized virtual one, they will say "not enough"

Still others seem to really just not like the genre.  Whats "new" in FPS games or fighting games or strategy games?  A genre is a genre.  What COULD be "new" really?  Criticism is easy, but I never see anyone articulate what their grand vision of "new" would be in a way that is remotely realistic in terms of implementation.  Yes, human level intelligence on NPCs and completely dynamic living worlds would be nice, but its 2008, not 2080.

The other thing is, what some people mean by "new" is most likely just a totally different genre.  Countless times when I have pushed people to articulate WHAT they want to see, they essentially end up describing an RTS, or an FPS, or what have you, but with some level of persistance.  Thing is, the persistance isnt really adding value to those genres and there are already FINE examples of online multi-player flavors of FPS and RTS that one can play.

I actually work for a developer (not of MMOs, but the comparison applies).  This may be a news flash, but we're not idiots.  We can dream up the same deep future sci-fi scenarios as anyone.  The catch is, we have to actually IMPLEMENT it.  What the web community fails to realize is that 98% of the world population can dream things up.  I know many think thats a skill and makes you a "designer", but it isnt and it doesnt.

You need to "dream up" something that has SOME chance of realistic implementation and then can be backed by a viable business plan.  So yeah, dream away, but reality is reality and to post the same type of comments EVERY release is really the equivalent of yelling "WHY DONT WE HAVE HOVERCRAFTS THAT RUN ON VACUUM ENERGY!!!" on car forums every time a new model is announced.

Originally posted by brostyn

If lore to some people is one sentence of explaining where an entire expansion with 10-20 zones came from then I suppose EQ has tons of it. Not that any other MMO has surpassed that, but others have certainly done the same. Actually other games make lore interactive by adding quest that forces you to learn the history of the land.

Well... I suspect that you're a "negative outlook" kind of person (your sig even proudly proclaims you as a cynic).  This is VERY common among gamers, but doesnt make it a good attitude when it comes to being able to look at something objectively.

You say EQ lore consists of "one sentence explaining 20 zones", yet I have spent COUNTLESS hours reading and enjoying TONS of backstory.

Its not always fully complete or cohesive, but if you're a "glass is half full type" that WANTS to have fun (rather than just have fun hating things), then you view that as PART of the experience of the game.  In life, RARELY do you have complete knowledge and history is NEVER fully consistent.  There are ALWAYS "versions" of history.  Of course in this day and age of short attention spans, impossible to satisfy expectations, and spoiler sites, everyone basically wants a perfectly crafted linear story that they can rocket through but then also wants infinite content in which they are the hero - go figure.

I'd rather have a rambling and sometimes flawed world filled with 1000s of stories sometimes only loosely connected that "feels" kind of real even if most of it goes nowhere.

Sure the new games "force" you to "learn" the "lore" by forced questing, but most players will ignore it anyway and sit with the cheat sheet rocketing from step a to step z.  I dont see what the difference is.

The other poster said it well.  LOTRO, Warcraft, Warhammer, etc has WELL established stories with COUNTLESS pages of novelization already written.  There are NO surprises there.

EQ was a TOTALLY original property (sure it borrowed heavy conceptually, but Norrath was a new place) and after over a dozen expansions, its fleshed out really impressively and is actually quite a compelling fantasy universe.

But of course if you're in the "nothing is good", "everything sucks", "there are only degrees of suckage" crowd, then Im sure none of this matters.  Seems that would be a really sad way to be.

Going to break from the pattern here.

The OP actually is NOT good.  Just because something appears technical doesnt mean it is useful or accurate.

That is NOT an accurate representation of what is going on with pixel OR vertex shaders.  The two are very different routines.

Pixel shading routines apply effects on a per pixel level.  Imagine each frame of an animation as an individual bitmap image.  Before effects are applied, the image is flat (like old school games like Kings Quest :) ).  A pixel shader does some quick fancy math based on parameters to decide what new color EACH PIXEL should be AFTER the effect. 

A vertex shader performs a similar function, but does it at a higher level.  At the vertex level (naming of these routines is kept pretty simple :) )  Vertex can be broadly defined as an objects 3D definition. 

There are also geometry shaders which exist between the two.  Geometry shaders work on primitives or shapes.  So like, a triangle or square.

So now imagine a textured cube is the image.  The vertex shader starts, sees it as an actual cube, and applies some effects.  Next, the geometry shaders sees it as a collection of squares and triangles (based on the angle that is showing) and applies effects.  Last, the pixel shaders see it as a bitmap (just 1280x1024 pixels - or whatever res) and apply effects.

Usually, in modern game design, a combination of all of these routines are used depending on what is the least expensive (ie - most efficient) for the particular effect.

NVidias G80s use a unified shader model architecture with big giant fully programmable units that can do whatever the software tells it.  Older architectures had dedicated hard wired units that were either pixel or vertex/geometry.

DirectX (and OpenGL) are the software API side of this.  When the hardware paired with them can handle running the routine, it is run on the hardware.  These routines are VERY expensive and typically CANT HAPPEN in software.  The CPU is just too bad at floating point and too busy to do it.

So the opening paragraph is just completely misunderstanding how the pipeline works and, therefore to me, the whole article is pretty useless.

I think what is happening is that, once again, the unified shader model of the new cards is causing trouble for devs.  Nearly EVERY new game seems to have stuttering problems on the BEST hardware.  This is an optimization issue or an incompatibility somewhere.  Throwing endless RAM at it MASKS it, but isnt the root cause.

I dont understand how this stuff is slipping past QA, to be honest.

Originally posted by convict

 

Originally posted by elocke

Umm..no offense but you do realize its an mmorpg? What I mean by this is...you , in my opinion, played the game with the completely wrong mindset, you rushed to hit level cap. Why? YOu should have known the endgame wouldn't be ready for you if you are one of the first there. Endgame in mmorpg usually requires 10+ people.

I haven't even broken level 29 yet with my 4 characters and you come along and try to tell me its a slap in the face? Not to me my friend. I'm enjoying it. Are there things that can be improved, fixed, etc.? Of course. show me one mmorpg that doesn't have that. bah, i'm done, you rush to 80 and then blame them for making it a front end game. Please, don't play WAR when it comes out, I don't want to hear you there either.

Let me get this straight... We're now expected to play mmo's slow in order to give the devs time to "finish" or catch up on higher level content?

 

They should have that done before launch. People will say the funniest things to defend something they like.

Your blaming the customer for playing the game he payed for, and telling him to accept the fact the game is not finished. That's amazing. wow, what some people say.

Fair enough... Let me ask you this... Have you ever liked ANY MMO?

Has the OP?

The EXACT same threads get recycled for EVERY MMO.

In development you have the slavish fanboy types screaming about how ALL PREVIOUS MMOs will now be irrelevant.  You also have the eternal cynics saying "IT WILL FAIL"

Once it is released you have the guys who max out in 1 week complaining about lack of endgame followed by guys who defend the devs and say "NO LIFE LOSER!" and then guys like you who say "THE GAME IS UNFINISHED!"

Meanwhile, all along, people scream at the devs to have no bugs, fully finished game, get the thing out yesterday, etc.

If a game takes too long in development, people lose interest, stop caring, move on to the next hype, etc.

The real deal is that most of us are selfish, whining, short attention span, a-holes.  

A dev team would have to have a deal with the devil and a magic wand to please the type of person who posts about MMOs on an internet forum.

Blizard has kind of proven that they dont need to though.  They can just produce a fun game and ignore the types that are only happy when they are bitching.

To anyone who says CoX is "too repetitive" and thats why it doesnt have more subs, what is the reason for WoW's success then?

I dont see how WoW (or really any EQ mould high fantasy MMO) is any less repetitive than CoX.

Any MMO almost by definition is going to feature some level of repetition due to the character development aspects and also due to the fact that the world has to be finite in scope.

I think its more that the super hero genre is a niche and people are less forgiving than they would be with a fantasy universe.

When the entire world is basically forests, mountains, desert/ice/lava areas and every structure is a medieval style fort/castle/dungeon/town, people say 'well sure, its fantasy!'

When you're talking about an urban setting, somehow offices and factories all looking the same (which is actually kind of realistic - Ive been in hundreds of RL office buildings and there isnt a lot of difference), bothers people more.

Originally posted by bamwalla

It is theft.  Theft of the original game code and theft of potential players.  They have every right to go after these other servers.

It does show you a few things.  One, that there are a lot of people that like to play L2, just not the specific way (mostly grind and difficulty of obtaining items). It is a good game, runs smooth, fun classes, great graphics for a 4 year old game.   Another, is that people don't care much for the botters, they would much rather play on a server where everything is easier to buy and adena (in game money) is easier to earn. 15 bucks a month for a game that takes years ( or at least a poo-load of hours) to get a high level?

Perhaps NCsoft should attack the botters and cheaters as hard as they are attacking these private servers. 

If they dont attack the private servers, they set a precedent that private servers are ok.  Today it is some guys basement and some internet cafe.  Tomorrow it is a company in China with 100.000 users.  How will they attack THAT operation if they ignored the SMALL private servers?  Believe me... Precedent is strong in court.

As for the botters, there are no botters on "private" servers because there are no PEOPLE there really and everyone just hits the "win" button or the "easy" button and gets what they want.  I dont consider "fun" just being able to run around in god mode and, just because many seem to, doesnt mean it makes sense for a company to cater to them or means it is ok to steal a game engine. 

The argument of "well its a fun game, but its too hard, there are too many cheaters, there are botters, I dont have tons of time, I just want to BE lvl 100, and if I dont get all of that Ill steal it!" just isnt reasonable.

Originally posted by dodsfall

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

So if a company came out and offered free Whoppers that were cooked faster and didn't have any pickles, Burger King shouldn't claim they lost business because if people wanted the real whoppers they would be paying for them? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  Of course piracy and private servers are hurting the Software industry and they should be shut down.  It is illegal and it costs the people that designed the software hard earned money. 

 

 

I don't think a company could stay in business very long offering enough free whoppers to hurt Burger King's sales.  Someone has to buy the cow meat.

 

See this is a very profound point.  People ACCEPT this because it involves a tangible good.  People do NOT want to accept the value of IP because they CANT touch it.  So really, we havent evolved AT ALL.  Still idiot cavemen scrambling and fighting over scraps.  The value of an idea? Totally alien concept.  Just take what you want.  If its physical, cant take it or someone bigger and stronger will smash your skull.  See the law has teeth with tangible good, but with IP, it seems the tide is turning towards NO protection (corps that want IP protections are demonized by the new world socialist wave)

Soon we will be back to a pre-knowledge based world economy.  For the guys who live on MMORPGs and websites about MMOs... That isnt good for you.  In case you havent noticed, your first world economy is based ENTIRELY on knowledge.  You dont grow anything, manufacture anything or make anything.  Since 99% of us are KNOWLEDGE WORKERS, its AMAZING how few of us VALUE knowlege!

Originally posted by Orcon

 

Originally posted by ZeroKORE

I quit Lineage 2 awhile back due to the farmers and botters. Not the game or community. Now I play on private servers because it has none or very very few famers/botters. AND the GMs in the private servers are ACTIVE banning offenders with no questions asked. Bottom line is, private servers are able to give a much more enjoyable and valuable play experience compared to retail.

NCSoft lost my 15 bucks a month do to their own negligence and extremely limited ingame support. Not because of some private servers that were setup. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be playing on their software at all.

Maybe if game companies start supporting what the create and offer a consistantly fun experience, people would stay with retail. Companies are losing players and losing money because they aren't hiring enough bodies to keep the virus's that we call botters and farmers out. Spend some money, gain some money.

IMO developers can learn much from the community of private servers.

If developers were to spend TIME on creating a good QUALITY game with much needed SUPPORT for offenders of the EULA  (THAT MEANS HIRE IN GAME GMS WHO DO NOTHING BUT BAN/SUSPEND BOTTERS/FAMERS/CHEATERS) we may have a beacon of hope.

You can make more money off the offenders by banning them right out than going through all these "safety" procedures before you click the "nuke" button. They will go out and just buy more copies of the game @ $20 - $50 a pop. And you ban em again, eventually the offenders would be spending more money than they are making.

 

The problem is at the source, the heart, the core. Not the ones who branch out looking for a good quality experience of "fun". God forbid if the games stop becoming enjoyable, so we go out and produce our own answers because the companies can't supply the demands of the players. Supply and demand my friends,  supply and demand.

 

/End.

 

You can't blame people who want to enjoy a game they paid for and over 4 years get completely neglected and auto-response who then decide they've wasted enough time. Maybe if NC Soft didn't suck balls they wouldn't have to cry about their own losses.

Uh huh... because thats at the source of this.  You hate NC, good for you.  But dont begin to pretend that this has ANYTHING to do with folks on your crusade.  This is about people wanting something for free.  If they hate the company, they shouldnt play the game.  But instead INTERNET CAFES put up FREE servers and then CHARGE people to use the cafe.

I dont expect you to see any other side of this because you are laser focused on hating a company which is too bad, because one thing has nothing to do with another.

Here's a news flash for people who think this way... Just because you feel a product is "defective" in some way doesnt give you the right to STEAL IT. Get it?  Why is that hard?  You paid a monthly fee for a service.  You could have cancelled at any time.  You are owed exactly JACK SQUAT.  The fact you chose to keep paying for something that was causing you grief (apparently) is YOU PROBLEM.  That has NOTHING to do with people STEALING that service/codebase/content, etc.

Originally posted by Nostromo21

 

 

Well said Zero. There are other reasons a person might want to play on or even install a personal server, so his game is available for years to come. Will I be able to play GW1 or CoH or LOTRO or WoW in 10 years time, as I know I will D2 on a LAN, for example...?

What have companies like Blizzard  given us/you for the billions of dollars of profit? More servers (aka online slot machines lol!) & one piddly expansion in 4 years? I mean, hullo, McFly???

And I'm sick & tired of the IP debates. IP laws are fundamentally flawed, dated & run by pure greed. The Internet is seeing a diametric shift in how musos & other independents self-publish. Adapt or die, like any other business. You can't own an idea. Your founding fathers would probably turn over in their graves if they saw what patent laws & copyrights have amounted to. Most movies only make money for the producers in the first 6 weeks at the box office. Everything else is middle-men & cartels spreading their greedy fingers around, with licenses for anything & everything they didn't create, nor should they own or profit from. Whatever happened to making movies/music/games/art for the love of it? I guess it went the same place as quality, originality & innovative design *sigh*.

As far as games go, online delivery mechanisms such as Steam is finally seeing half-price games instead of the US$40-50 price tag (up to $100 in Aus for some games!) we've seen for far too many years. I buy my fair share of games, but I always try b4 I buy. I'm not giving a dev/publisher $70-90 for something I may only fiddle with for a couple hours b4 I realise it's pants. And demos don't cut it - they're pre-alpha usually & never a good indication of release gameplay. Most of my purchases these days are indy or online titles for this reason.

And then God said: "Let there be file sharing!".

</rant>

 

You're "tired of IP debates"?  Well why do YOU get to be the sole arbiter of what someone is allowed to earn?  Can you answer me that?  If WoW isnt delivering value in your eyes, then dont play it.  I like how your basic answer is "no, Ill steal it instea" and to rationalize that you wrap it in some BS moralistic strawman argument.  This is ALWAYS the stance of folks I see arguing from your side.  "they make TOO much... I dont want to pay so much!  why isnt the stuff I want free!"

What happened to making things for the love of it?  Do YOU do that?  What do YOU do for a living?  Do you refuse pay? 

Wow... some people just want to be terminally unhappy and disgruntled.  It never ceases to amaze me the level of angst, bitterness and outright anger (not to mention suspicion and distrust) there is pervasely running through *gaming* forums.  GAMING.  As in a recreational activity that is a pure luxury OPTION in your life.

Some of you people really are emotionally disturbed.  And it is perfectly valid to make this judgement based solely on what you post here.  Internet postings are more than enough to identify a chronically unhappy and obsessive personality.

When a company decides to test the waters with an OPT-IN system of ad supported revenue and your reaction is resentment, rage and deep seeded suspicion, it is time to step AWAY from the keyboard.  When you find yourself saying things like "ALL OF THESE DAMN IDIOT MMO DEVS!!!!" you are TOO EMOTIONALLY INVESTED in GAMING.  Step AWAY from the keyboard.

Do you people who react this way HONESTLY not see how abnormal it is?  If you DESPISE the games and their developers DONT play them!  Its as if these companies were preventing you from going home to see your family or something.  They produce a product that you do NOT have to buy, they arent your mother and father who owe you some kind of legacy.

All of this furor over ads and yet I bet so many of you SWOON over Google.  After all, Google is the DARLING of the millenials.  VERY odd that the conspiracy obsessed generation is in LOVE with an ad agency.

Originally posted by damian7

 

Originally posted by funnylumpy

Maybe... or maybe I tired reading forum fillings which really does not lead to anything.

In your case you don't have a better arguments so I won't hold it against you.

If a complaint about a game directed to the game creators/company isn't changing the game why go in all forums complain about it?? This does ofcourse not go for only SOE and it's games but for all other games which people is flaming and crying that sucks.

I mean seriously if people really believe that filling the forums in mmorpg and like with your endless whine about how much you dislike certain games you're really have little to spend your energy on.

Try to get over it and move on. I mean if it was important for your life and I mean for your real life you could go out in the streets protesting but since this is a game it's no worth getting angry for.

I have happily moved on from games I didn't like.. Try to focus your energy on something else... nit or start drawing a picture.... maybe create your own perfect game.

 

if nothing else, it's an opportunity for people to vent about something bad.

 

whereas posts like the one i've quoted, serve no purpose other than possibly for the author to have a superiour-than-thou mindset?  don't know. 

 

i know that complaining about people complaining (who may/may not have legit reasons for complaining) serves NO purpose.  it does however (in this case) reinforce that some people find it a lot easier to whine, than to see the reasons for the complaints in the first place.

 

THIS is why SOE continues down the path they do.   kudos.

Says you.  By your comments, you obviously *agree* with the chronic complainers at least in spirit, so to *you* this guys post "serves no purpose".

I agree with him though, so to me, his post does serve a purpose.  It serves the purpose of showing me that I'm not alone in thinking that the endless litany of complaints by an ENDLESSLY vocal minority against EVERY game out there gets really tired.

You make the assumption that the poster has a "superiour (sic) than thou mindset" (feeling inadequate?) and that "complaining about complaining" is "whining" and a refusal to see "the reasons for the complaints"

Again, this is all because *you* have a bias.  Many of us are more than intelligent enough to understand the "reasons" behind the complaints the first 235,000 times they're posted.  Sometimes *GASP* many of us might agree, but you know what, sometimes we ACTUALLY disagree!  Thats right!  The whole world doesnt necessarily see things the way you and other crusaders feel we "obviously" should.

You choose to come to a public forum and make a full-time job out of bitching then prepared to be bitched AT.  As for whose complaining is more or less valid and whose has nobler or more nefarious intent, thats all really academic isnt it?  Each side will think the other is wasting space.

I'll tell you this though... Even in the cases where I AGREE with the issue, I cant stand the way a large number of immature posters go about addressing it.  With the histrionics and the ad hominem attacks against faceless corporations or individual devs, and the crazed conspiracy theory hyperbole, and the ENDLESS spamming.

I think folks calling the borderline insane on the futility of their crusade and the obnoxious nature of their approach is more than justified in a PUBLIC forum. 

There is nothing wrong with a reasoned dialogue about the shortcomings of a game or a company.  Especially one which might lead to some constructive and valid criticism.  Posting endless litanies of outrage like a 2 year old and then going nuts about "the first ammendment" and lashing out wildly when someone questions you on it is bound to get you bitched at.