Originally posted by grunty

Originally posted by shrunken_man

Originally posted by grunty

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/15858

That's just a laundry list, I think he's looking for some opinions.

When he provides enough information to form an opinion about what he wants, he might get an answer.

Originally posted by grunty

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/15858

If you write code like you write responses and explanations, then you are no better then the raid designers you criticize. And you still didn't answer my question in regard to BC. Are raid sizes not smaller? Take your own advice and be more eloquent and less complicated.

And I did bother to read your wall of text. At least the first less mocking one.

Really? Did they give it chance to be anything?  They're changing mechanics before the game is fixed. They're turning it into EQ2 before it has a chance be Vanguard. I really think this is a mistake, and believe that they could easily profit from a game that is reminiscent of the challenges early MMO's provided, with updated graphics and features. Like Vanguard was planned to be. 

Originally posted by Wow4Lifer

Originally posted by shrunken_man

 

Originally posted by Elikal

 

Originally posted by shrunken_man

I don't think this is about hardcore and non-hardcore at all. What's so hardcore about running back somewhere to get your corpse? What's so hardcore about running across continent to hook-up with a buddy? What's so hardcore about not speeding through levels? Or simplifying character models?

Perhaps corpse runs, cross country exploration, and earning levels are old standards people as a whole just don't want to deal with anymore. Just hand me the keys to the city, instantly make me king, and call it good!

 

This is all about an economy of time. Just like there are money sinks in MMO's, there are time sinks. That's part of what makes a virtual world what it is. I'm severely disappointed with these proposed changes. In my opinion they are turning Vanguard into WoWGaurd. I play WoW, I like WoW, but let WoW be WoW, and Vanguard be what it is.

I have been waiting for fixes to Vanguard to resubscribe, but now I see more than fixes are planned. Pretty soon I won't even need to be present at the computer to play. In fact, the bot tech is there, just make it part of the game why don't you? Make it so easy that no accomplishment made can be named great. I am 1 of 9 million who have all accomplished the same mediocre thing with little to no effort.

'Tis a sad day for Vanguard. May your dreams rest in peace.

 

 

Get it in your heads that this entire thing is NOT about hardcore or not! 99% of the changes mentioned are just about preventing boring timesinks, like the uneventful long travel. The current corpse run is not difficult, its just a timesink. You die at the bottom of some huge dungeon and have to run down ALL THE WAY again! Thats not difficult or hard, its just silly and boring and a timesink, NOTHING ELSE.

I mean, if you enjoy timesinks, play tetris or just randomly delete your characters every other day. All these points mentioned have ZERO to do with the difficulty! They have to do ONLY with "what is fun and what is just a boring waste of time". Getting a bit funny things out of a MMO even if you have just a short time, is a *necessity* for ANY MMO. Sure, we need those difficult, long-term goals too. But atm VG is SO devoid of anything to gain in short tem, and it SORELY needs to add those too. If you *really* read the text and not just yell "water-down" like a Pavlov Dog, you may *see* what this really is about.

This is NOT about handing the keys to the kingdom for LAZYBUMS! Its giving ppl who play 2-3 hours more than a handful of badger claws and a zombie bone! I really would appreciate you STOP yelling out doomsday Apocalypse for VG just because some casual players gets a WEE bit more than currently! Its NOT the end of the world or turning VG upside down!

 

Ok, there is one thing I would invite everyone who disagrees with the Letter's suggestions to go to the DETAIL and tell us OPENLY what EXACTLY you dont like and why. Its very easy to yell "its watered down" and "its another WOW". I dont take such generalizations serious unless you answer to exact points.

Why is giving rewards also to those who DONT have 8 hours a day to play bad?

Why is slow travel (when it is just boring) so important?

Why is corpse run as it is so imporant? Do you feel the game is really made more interesting because if you die at the bottom of a dungeon heightens your sense of enjoyment, because you have to re-do it all again?

Are not most of the penalities and issues mentioned merely timesinks for the sake of timesinks?

MANY MANY ppl just want to feel a sligh reward and accomplishments even if they have only a short time. It doesnt mean to make them rich and powerful for nothing. But as VG is atm you can play days and days and all I loot is dozens of badger livers and zombie bones. Vg just IS stingy! I dont want them to give me a free manor, but when I end of 2 hour session, I DAMMIT want *some* small, funny thing looted and *some* small feel of having accomplished something. It doesnt mean to take out the greater challanges, it just means to ADD challanges and accomplishments for those with less time. And Eq2 has done JUST THAT as well! There are very rare things and very expensive things which neeed A LOT of time and are VERY hard to come, BIG challanges for LONG TIME commitment. So doing that for Vanguard is the BEST thing to do. And NO: just because you incorporate what is GOOD doesnt mean to make VG and EQ2 copy! I means to learn from others, and only fools dont learn from what others made good.

The BIG folly of the original VG devs like Brad was to re-invent the wheel, to make things different just for the sake of making them different! Sure, there is this vocal lot on the fourms of VG. But if you would look outside you small circles you would realize what a *small* island you are! But I guess you will never wake up to reality. Instead you toss "evil WOW" in and all debate is silenced with sterotypes with catchwords and anti-slogans like "watered down" and WOW-ification.

 

I ask why are people so impatient? You'll get your reward. What's wrong with putting some time toward it? I'm a casual player. I can feel accomplishment for doing something in stages vs. being rewarded for every simple thing I do within a 2 hour time span. I don't think Vanguard is trying to horde the feeling of reward and accomplishment away from anyone as it currently stands.

Why is slow travel important? Well because maybe it gives the world a greater sense of scale, so that it feels like a WORLD and not a backyard. Maybe it causes you to notice an area and mark it down to go check out that cool looking cave sometime to see where it leads. Maybe it's just for the beauty of the art and design of different locations. Perhaps it's that sense of danger of walking into the unknown and discovering what is there? It's called exploration and some people still think it's fun.

Corpse runs. Not only is incentive to not get killed and play smarter, but it sometimes can have pleasant unexpected results. I remember a corpse run in the first EQ that caused our whole guild to band together to retrieve it. Later it became a hilariious story we all could laugh about. Other friendships have been made over people helping others to get their corpse back. I know it sounds odd to say, but it can be a social mechanic.

I ask you to consider that in your hurry to the finish, you take the time to observe that not everyone wants to swim in the shallow pool.

So where exactly is the correlation between the corpse run and having a good time with the guild? Can't you have a good time with yoru guild doing anything? Why does it have to be a corpse run? Can't it be something more difficult but less time consuming? Corpse runs are easy but they take forever...hence they are boring.

It doesn't have to be a corpse run, but the point is that sometimes a corpse run becomes more than just a boring exercise of patience. I thought my example was pretty clear. And I would hope people would not build a guild around the soul purpose of doing corpse runs.

What you have to understand is that for some people Vanguard was to be a nice warm home-cooked meal in the land of Mc Donalds, Burger King, and Taco Bell MMO's. Not everyone is satisfied with the food pill instant gratification mentality. Not everyone wants to chew down a prefab dinner while in their car driving to their next prefab meal. But games are already in existence that play that way, so why change Vanguard?

Originally posted by Elikal

 

Originally posted by shrunken_man

I don't think this is about hardcore and non-hardcore at all. What's so hardcore about running back somewhere to get your corpse? What's so hardcore about running across continent to hook-up with a buddy? What's so hardcore about not speeding through levels? Or simplifying character models?

Perhaps corpse runs, cross country exploration, and earning levels are old standards people as a whole just don't want to deal with anymore. Just hand me the keys to the city, instantly make me king, and call it good!

 

This is all about an economy of time. Just like there are money sinks in MMO's, there are time sinks. That's part of what makes a virtual world what it is. I'm severely disappointed with these proposed changes. In my opinion they are turning Vanguard into WoWGaurd. I play WoW, I like WoW, but let WoW be WoW, and Vanguard be what it is.

I have been waiting for fixes to Vanguard to resubscribe, but now I see more than fixes are planned. Pretty soon I won't even need to be present at the computer to play. In fact, the bot tech is there, just make it part of the game why don't you? Make it so easy that no accomplishment made can be named great. I am 1 of 9 million who have all accomplished the same mediocre thing with little to no effort.

'Tis a sad day for Vanguard. May your dreams rest in peace.

 

Get it in your heads that this entire thing is NOT about hardcore or not! 99% of the changes mentioned are just about preventing boring timesinks, like the uneventful long travel. The current corpse run is not difficult, its just a timesink. You die at the bottom of some huge dungeon and have to run down ALL THE WAY again! Thats not difficult or hard, its just silly and boring and a timesink, NOTHING ELSE.

I mean, if you enjoy timesinks, play tetris or just randomly delete your characters every other day. All these points mentioned have ZERO to do with the difficulty! They have to do ONLY with "what is fun and what is just a boring waste of time". Getting a bit funny things out of a MMO even if you have just a short time, is a *necessity* for ANY MMO. Sure, we need those difficult, long-term goals too. But atm VG is SO devoid of anything to gain in short tem, and it SORELY needs to add those too. If you *really* read the text and not just yell "water-down" like a Pavlov Dog, you may *see* what this really is about.

This is NOT about handing the keys to the kingdom for LAZYBUMS! Its giving ppl who play 2-3 hours more than a handful of badger claws and a zombie bone! I really would appreciate you STOP yelling out doomsday Apocalypse for VG just because some casual players gets a WEE bit more than currently! Its NOT the end of the world or turning VG upside down!

Ok, there is one thing I would invite everyone who disagrees with the Letter's suggestions to go to the DETAIL and tell us OPENLY what EXACTLY you dont like and why. Its very easy to yell "its watered down" and "its another WOW". I dont take such generalizations serious unless you answer to exact points.

Why is giving rewards also to those who DONT have 8 hours a day to play bad?

Why is slow travel (when it is just boring) so important?

Why is corpse run as it is so imporant? Do you feel the game is really made more interesting because if you die at the bottom of a dungeon heightens your sense of enjoyment, because you have to re-do it all again?

Are not most of the penalities and issues mentioned merely timesinks for the sake of timesinks?

MANY MANY ppl just want to feel a sligh reward and accomplishments even if they have only a short time. It doesnt mean to make them rich and powerful for nothing. But as VG is atm you can play days and days and all I loot is dozens of badger livers and zombie bones. Vg just IS stingy! I dont want them to give me a free manor, but when I end of 2 hour session, I DAMMIT want *some* small, funny thing looted and *some* small feel of having accomplished something. It doesnt mean to take out the greater challanges, it just means to ADD challanges and accomplishments for those with less time. And Eq2 has done JUST THAT as well! There are very rare things and very expensive things which neeed A LOT of time and are VERY hard to come, BIG challanges for LONG TIME commitment. So doing that for Vanguard is the BEST thing to do. And NO: just because you incorporate what is GOOD doesnt mean to make VG and EQ2 copy! I means to learn from others, and only fools dont learn from what others made good.

The BIG folly of the original VG devs like Brad was to re-invent the wheel, to make things different just for the sake of making them different! Sure, there is this vocal lot on the fourms of VG. But if you would look outside you small circles you would realize what a *small* island you are! But I guess you will never wake up to reality. Instead you toss "evil WOW" in and all debate is silenced with sterotypes with catchwords and anti-slogans like "watered down" and WOW-ification.

I ask why are people so impatient? You'll get your reward. What's wrong with putting some time toward it? I'm a casual player. I can feel accomplishment for doing something in stages vs. being rewarded for every simple thing I do within a 2 hour time span. I don't think Vanguard is trying to horde the feeling of reward and accomplishment away from anyone as it currently stands.

Why is slow travel important? Well because maybe it gives the world a greater sense of scale, so that it feels like a WORLD and not a backyard. Maybe it causes you to notice an area and mark it down to go check out that cool looking cave sometime to see where it leads. Maybe it's just for the beauty of the art and design of different locations. Perhaps it's that sense of danger of walking into the unknown and discovering what is there? It's called exploration and some people still think it's fun.

Corpse runs. Not only is incentive to not get killed and play smarter, but it sometimes can have pleasant unexpected results. I remember a corpse run in the first EQ that caused our whole guild to band together to retrieve it. Later it became a hilariious story we all could laugh about. Other friendships have been made over people helping others to get their corpse back. I know it sounds odd to say, but it can be a social mechanic.

I ask you to consider that in your hurry to the finish, you take the time to observe that not everyone wants to swim in the shallow pool.

I don't think this is about hardcore and non-hardcore at all. What's so hardcore about running back somewhere to get your corpse? What's so hardcore about running across continent to hook-up with a buddy? What's so hardcore about not speeding through levels? Or simplifying character models?

Perhaps corpse runs, cross country exploration, and earning levels are old standards people as a whole just don't want to deal with anymore. Just hand me the keys to the city, instantly make me king, and call it good!

This is all about an economy of time. Just like there are money sinks in MMO's, there are time sinks. That's part of what makes a virtual world what it is. I'm severely disappointed with these proposed changes. In my opinion they are turning Vanguard into WoWGaurd. I play WoW, I like WoW, but let WoW be WoW, and Vanguard be what it is.

I have been waiting for fixes to Vanguard to resubscribe, but now I see more than fixes are planned. Pretty soon I won't even need to be present at the computer to play. In fact, the bot tech is there, just make it part of the game why don't you? Make it so easy that no accomplishment made can be named great. I am 1 of 9 million who have all accomplished the same mediocre thing with little to no effort.

'Tis a sad day for Vanguard. May your dreams rest in peace.

Originally posted by Terminus-Est

I don't understand why everyone is so excited about Bioware making an MMORPG. They have absolutely no experience in the genre and quite frankly haven't made a decent game since Baldur's Gate. What makes you guys think it will be any good?

Ok I think it's arguable that they HAVE put out some very good games since Baldur's Gate, and I think that if Blizzard was capable of making an MMO without having any prior experience, that Bioware has a good chance of doing it too. Especially with EA's deep pockets now.

Originally posted by Korusus

 

Originally posted by shrunken_man

Well it could be anything really. But I doubt it will be Star Wars or D&D as those licenses are already out in the market, and to put a new one out there would just create confusion. I can't see Bioware wanting to have their MMO confused with another. Most dedicated MMO'ers would obviously know the difference, but keep in mind World of Warcraft opened the MMO door to the casual gamer and all other developers are following that example. I think it's fair to say it would be risky to assume a casual player would know the difference between SOE's Star Wars and Bioware's Star Wars.

With that in mind, I just don't think Jade Empire was the commercial success Bioware hoped it would be. This is not to say it wouldn't be a good world, but I can't see them relying on that I.P. to launch a successful and desirable MMO.  Add to this the oversaturated Asian themed MMO market, and well I think it'd just get lost.

It could be Dragon Age, but I can't help but think that there's just WAY to much fantasy-based MMO's out there right now, and to do that would just come off as a me-too WoW killer type. Who knows, I mean the whole fantasy archetype works well and that genre just seems to lend it self well to an MMO environment.

Sci-fi however, still needs it's killer app. There are a few semi-successful MMO's out there with EVE, Anarchy Online, and SWG. But nothing has really skyrocketed to success. I've played Tabula Rasa, and I just don't think it has the hook that will bring in the numbers. Mass Effect the Xbox 360 experience is all about moral choices, different character types, and an explorable universe. If they are successful on the 360, they could leverage that success to the MMO market.

My vote goes to Mass Effect.

 

 

 

Click the PDF file Darquenblade linked to a few posts above.  Bioware (EA) doesn't own the IP for the MMO.  If it were Mass Effect, they could have said they owned the IP without giving away that it was Mass Effect/Jade/Dragon Age.  The fact that they're saying they don't own it leads me to believe it's third party.

Not conclusive that it's star wars/DnD though.  And I agree it would be odd for Lucas Arts or Atari to want a competing MMO for the ones out already...but keep in mind that neither DnDO or SWG is doing very well.  Also, Bioware is linked to both licenses in rather unique ways... Star Wars Online?  No... Knights of the Old Republic Online?  Maybe.  Forgotten Realms Online?  Perhaps.

You are placing a lot of faith in a PDF that could easily be fake, or manipulated. You don't know that this PDF or it's source is reputable.

Well it could be anything really. But I doubt it will be Star Wars or D&D as those licenses are already out in the market, and to put a new one out there would just create confusion. I can't see Bioware wanting to have their MMO confused with another. Most dedicated MMO'ers would obviously know the difference, but keep in mind World of Warcraft opened the MMO door to the casual gamer and all other developers are following that example. I think it's fair to say it would be risky to assume a casual player would know the difference between SOE's Star Wars and Bioware's Star Wars.

With that in mind, I just don't think Jade Empire was the commercial success Bioware hoped it would be. This is not to say it wouldn't be a good world, but I can't see them relying on that I.P. to launch a successful and desirable MMO.  Add to this the oversaturated Asian themed MMO market, and well I think it'd just get lost.

It could be Dragon Age, but I can't help but think that there's just WAY to much fantasy-based MMO's out there right now, and to do that would just come off as a me-too WoW killer type. Who knows, I mean the whole fantasy archetype works well and that genre just seems to lend it self well to an MMO environment.

Sci-fi however, still needs it's killer app. There are a few semi-successful MMO's out there with EVE, Anarchy Online, and SWG. But nothing has really skyrocketed to success. I've played Tabula Rasa, and I just don't think it has the hook that will bring in the numbers. Mass Effect the Xbox 360 experience is all about moral choices, different character types, and an explorable universe. If they are successful on the 360, they could leverage that success to the MMO market.

My vote goes to Mass Effect.

Blizzard are the masters of polish and accessibility. They really haven't done anything original as Warcraft borrows from Warhammer which borrows from Tolkien, throw D&D in there somewhere if you want. Same could be said for any of their I.P.s.

But where they shine is with their high level of craftsmanship while keeping their games accessible to a broad audience of people, not only from hardware requirements, but the intuitive nature of their game design. I think I can say with confidence that a person could buy any Blizzard game, install it, and start playing immediately with no huge technical issues and without having to read the manual to learn what to do.

So what have they done with WoW? They've taken the addictive nature of a game like EQ (or the MMO genre in general), improved upon the pain in the butt stuff people didnt like (zones, quests, tradeskills, raids, PVP, travel), made it accessible for just about any reasonable system (EQ was always hardware heavy), and made it an intuitive and easy learning experience (EQ had me baffled when I was first starting out in 2001).

And even though the universe is borrowed, it's still very cool and well thought out with a lot of depth (and lore if you want to read up on it). Short answer: Blizzard concerns themselves with details that people take for granted or may never see, but for those who would take the time to notice it is a treat and testament to their success.

Fanboi? Sure I am. They're smart people, who make great games that I enjoy. I admire them for that.

Vanguard shutting down is just opinion, and there's really nothing but opinion to back up that statement. However there's plenty of information to back up that Vanguard will stay alive and well.

1. Sony buys the game.

2. Sony hires a crew of ex-Sigil employees.

3. They open forums and encourage feedback.

4. They make updates to the game about every two weeks.

5. They announce they are actively working on add-ons for the game, trial island and ancient port warehouse, and various other fixes.

There's five. I'm sure there are more. I find it hard to believe that Sony would buy the IP, hire a staff of people to work on it, announce all this crap, just all the sudden throw their hands up and say, darn-it there's just not enough current subscribers, we quit. Not even Sony would waste money that way.

Vanguard will probably never be a huge commercial success, but I think it could be profitable for Sony. I'm sure many people are still in a holding pattern waiting for that turn-key eureka moment, when Vanguard is a smooth enjoyable experience. As it is, it's really not as bad as people make it out to be, it's more or less behind schedule is all.

When overly masculine Vegas showgirls go bad!