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All Posts by Distopia

All Posts by Distopia

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Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Distopia

That's not exactly true, EQ and SWG can still be measured against today's games fairly easily. We can't really talk about the latter, however, EQ emu is officially legit now.

 

The great thing is P1999 runs about 1600+ during the day and DGC now has two new progression servers due to the demand at the same time which is only available to subscribers.  In regards to measuring against today's MMOs there really isn't one that is "new" technologically speaking that is "old school" gameplay wise.  There are a few in the works, which is great, but not currently full release quality.

I can tell you, using an emu server that hasn't had new content in 5 years is hardly a reliable metric.  Its still the best classic experience out there, but long gone are the days when the staff communicates or patches fixes on a regular basis.  Not to mention the fact that the servers are extremely top heavy, and content is way overly contested.  They've needed to open additional servers for a really long time, but they just don't seem to care any more.

I'm neither a player there, or on windbreaks progression servers, yet I've never met a bigger fan of Everquest than myself.  I can tell you first hand many feel the same way, and simply want a new game based on the same premise, not to play the old version for the rest of their life.

I'm referring to seeing what the game-play is like compared to new games, of course an Emu is going to lack in regard to customer care, upkeep etc... It's there for those really curious on the topic.

I tend to not get involved on the topic of player numbers and success stories, it's just too anecdotal of a topic to care much about. As they say, if you build it they will come, how many is anyone's guess.

TBH I don't even know what people really want here, it's all about feelings and "spirit", I don't know how devs design feelings or "spirit".

I personally just want a game with plenty of features like SWG, whether it's a themepark or not, totally open world or not, truly challenging or not, doesn't make much difference to me. I want the option to progress in different areas like, piloting, creature handling, bounty hunting, etc...

To me this is what we should be talking about, not who's a vet, who's new, what we hate, fellings in general etc... There's no substance in any of that.

 

 

Originally posted by mayito7777
Thank you OP for your review you just saved me $60. I love games like this but not this hard. I play to have fun not to get frustrated. I love Skyrim, I have a blast playing it and I have already logged in less than a month over 200 hours of play. I like the way TW3 looks but I am not a masoquist who enjoys getting kill every 3 steps.

Lets put it this way, My wife will not play challenging games, she quits rather quick after a few deaths, with the witcher 3 she barely dies and has played non-stop since release. It's not that bad...

Originally posted by delete5230

I guess this deep in the post it's OK to go off topic, by using SWG, UO or EQ1.

 

But just remember what the original topic was.

People seem to reflect back 10 to 15 years ago to discuss a living world given to the players. One that you can play for years because of deep involved things and decisions had to be made.  Some easy content if your not in the mood to play with others on a certain day, and harder stuff when your guild is on.

How can you measure a game like this when the ONLY way is to refer to something that are so old and involves stick figures, and bad coding.

 

They just STOPED MAKING THEM, and went the cheap way.

NO ONE VOTED, for easy simple and follow the popcorn trail......If any of you voted, please tell me where, because no one else here can find the voting booth.

VOTED WITH OUR POCKETS ?.....Ha.....MMO players will play anything, it's an addiction.....I have it too.....I've played many garbage mmos to finally realize they SUCK !

 

There is no way to measure if " Old School " would work because we no longer have a reference......Developers just stopped !

That's not exactly true, EQ and SWG can still be measured against today's games fairly easily. We can't really talk about the latter, however, EQ emu is officially legit now.

There it is again, "the cheap way", you mean by spending way more money as well as resource? Designing real content, rather than leaving that up to us? Objectivity seems to be lost when it comes to these topics. All the lack of objective reasoning does is weaken the overall argument... it certainly doesn't strengthen it.

As much as I loved SWG back in the day, that doesn't blind me toward it's shortcomings, which even the lead (Raph) recognizes and outlines for us today.

A lot of those shortcomings were a result of "going the cheap way"... all of their scrapped plans were a result of having to go the cheap way... Raph has basically said as much on this very forum.

It actually pains me a bit to constantly have to down my favorite MMO in these threads, however,  that's part of being objective..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Demogorgon
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Demogorgon
 

When finally a game that goes at a much slower pace comes come, with things to do at every levels in a realistic flesh out world, you'll see how wrong you are. But to be honest, I'm not getting my hopes up for that actually happenneing for the obvious reason that its a lot harder to make & devs only see the quick bucks.

/shrug

It's harder to make? based on what exactly? Since this is a "what bothers me" thread for the most part; I'll have to say this is what bothers me. This kind of statement, because if we're going to be realistic, what you're basing this on is old games, and they were not harder to make. They entailed significantly less in terms of development (scope is another story, ie SWG). Those games were essentially blank canvases, the players made the game. The devs simply designed UI's, Ai, some sort of profession system, as well as a crafting/combat system, the rest was really up to us as players. 

When it comes to these discussions this is the biggest fallacy I see in them, the idea that a world is hard to make. What's hard is selling just a world. Sure there's an audience for it, but it requires a lot more time commitment from the player, as well as you have to give them reason to care about being in that world. SWG worked because it's Star Wars... UO is Ultima, which was huge back then in terms of RPG properties. Popular properties have really been key to the success stories in terms of many western titles. It can take years for a new property to really start catching people in mass, for an MMO that's too long.

That is one of the biggest hurdles for a new game, unless it's carrying with it an established name, it's nothing more than generic setting number 2,000,001, hence no one really cares about it's world, or the stories behind it, therefor that world doesn't really sell.

There are exceptions like EQ, or EVE, but they're certainly not the rule, random luck, and the right commitment as well as time played huge parts in those success stories.

If you're going to sit there & tell me that the games we have today hard harder to make, I'm just going to have to disagree.

Instanses aren't hard to do.. .thats why they are doing it. Moving on...

(morrowind voice) Ah yes, make some strawman counter and move on...who said anything about instances? I'm referring to overuse of pre-generated worlds, simple content types like SWG's mission systems, or simply camping one world boss all day long. That's what content was back then... The tech.. as well as knowledge of that tech created limitations that didn't allow for much more, on a technical level these games have come a long way....

Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by zekeofev

However, there was not the hand holding quest leveling systems that waypoint the next place to go like current MMOs. In DAOC and SWG you at least had to discover through world exploration good places to level or find resources (or hear about them from friends).

Are you forgetting the SWG mission terminals which told you to go to waypoints where a mob lair would spawn so you could kill it and then go to the next mission waypoint?  When I played SWG pre-CU that was the primary way for people to level.

True, yet they were more or less tasks to make credits or xtra xp, they served their purpose, without really needing to disguise themselves as interesting content.

Originally posted by Demogorgon
 

When finally a game that goes at a much slower pace comes come, with things to do at every levels in a realistic flesh out world, you'll see how wrong you are. But to be honest, I'm not getting my hopes up for that actually happenneing for the obvious reason that its a lot harder to make & devs only see the quick bucks.

/shrug

It's harder to make? based on what exactly? Since this is a "what bothers me" thread for the most part; I'll have to say this is what bothers me. This kind of statement, because if we're going to be realistic, what you're basing this on is old games, and they were not harder to make. They entailed significantly less in terms of development (scope is another story, ie SWG). Those games were essentially blank canvases, the players made the game. The devs simply designed UI's, Ai, some sort of profession system, as well as a crafting/combat system, the rest was really up to us as players. 

When it comes to these discussions this is the biggest fallacy I see in them, the idea that a world is hard to make. What's hard is selling just a world. Sure there's an audience for it, but it requires a lot more time commitment from the player, as well as you have to give them reason to care about being in that world. SWG worked because it's Star Wars... UO is Ultima, which was huge back then in terms of RPG properties. Popular properties have really been key to the success stories in terms of many western titles. It can take years for a new property to really start catching people in mass, for an MMO that's too long.

That is one of the biggest hurdles for a new game, unless it's carrying with it an established name, it's nothing more than generic setting number 2,000,001, hence no one really cares about it's world, or the stories behind it, therefor that world doesn't really sell.

There are exceptions like EQ, or EVE, but they're certainly not the rule, random luck, and the right commitment as well as time played huge parts in those success stories.

SWTOR and GW2 are both great games for a duo.
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by zekeofev

New games are too easy. Old school PVE used to be harsh. The lack of good online guides also assisted this as players had to band together and pool knowledge to tackle some of the harder tasks in the game.

 

Depends on the game really, PVE in SWG pre-cu as an example was anything but harsh. Which their buff system made it even worse (essentially god mode)..

DAOC wasn't all that tough PVE wise either. EQ  is the main western one that focused on that type of thing (harsh penalty). They tried going that route with SWG, yet even by then (a couple years after EQ) that stuff was wearing thin on players and it was removed right after launch.

There was still a need to socialize to get these buffs though and not all combat was made trivial with them. Krayt dragons come to mind but sure the combat was easier than others I give you that. DAOC was more grindy than hard but it still encouraged grouping.

 

However, there was not the hand holding quest leveling systems that waypoint the next place to go like current MMOs. In DAOC and SWG you at least had to discover through world exploration good places to level or find resources (or hear about them from friends).

That's true, they did both require socialization, as well as questing took a backseat to give the presentation of a world the spotlight.

My personal stance on OS vs NS, is that they both offer something the other did not. New School has added a lot in terms of storytelling, types of content, production quality, etc.. Yet they left behind the good parts of the OS games, community oriented mechanics. Could just be a matter that time doesn't allow for a focus on both in terms of development. Could be that modern devs just don't like the result that freedom based community oriented design brings to the table. There's always a hole to plug in those designs, plug one and another opens. Straight forward themepark design; while it has it's faults, it's much easier to maintain a level playing field with.

Who knows really, it's one of those questions that could have any answer.

 

 

Originally posted by zekeofev

New games are too easy. Old school PVE used to be harsh. The lack of good online guides also assisted this as players had to band together and pool knowledge to tackle some of the harder tasks in the game.

 

Depends on the game really, PVE in SWG pre-cu as an example was anything but harsh. Which their buff system made it even worse (essentially god mode)..

DAOC wasn't all that tough PVE wise either. EQ  is the main western one that focused on that type of thing (harsh penalty). They tried going that route with SWG, yet even by then (a couple years after EQ) that stuff was wearing thin on players and it was removed right after launch.

Originally posted by Dullahan
 

The only thing ArcheAge proved, is how to destroy a decent game as fast as humanly possible.

By virtue of experience, old school players that have honestly played both the old and new, do have more knowledge.  The vast majority of the players in this genre have never experienced an MMO that operates and feels like a virtual world rather than just a game.  Most of them simply read a wikipedia entry, looked at some google images, or played the modernized version of old games and parade around here like they have a clue.  They stick out like a sore thumb.

 In other words, if you don't agree with "me" you're not old school... Do you realize how juvenile that type of thing sounds? What exactly are we who played games dating back to Pre-WOW, more knowledgeable about? Other than having experience in this or that game? No matter what experience it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in regard to subjective tastes. WHich these conversations in the end boil down to. No one is right or wrong in these topics, do you not get that?


 

Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by delete5230
A few months back I played Vanilla WoW, that game has so much content that games like ESO and FF14 would have to release four expansions.

 

Playing casually a few hours a day, some days maybe an hour, and maybe on weekends three or four.  A little bit of chatting and a little helping lower Guild members, It would take :

3 days to get to level 10

2 weeks to get to level 20

1 day for each level past 20

2 day for each level past 30........And so on.

4-6 months total playing that way.

 

The game is made to level slower BECAUSE THERE ARE ENUFF QUEST !

The game was harder where you had to wait for someone to come on line to help or make a new friend by asking them to help.

You could, choose between three different race areas to quest in.

 

Come to think of it, if you gave the graphics a face lift for Vanilla WoW, it would blow all newer mmos out of the water. Maybe reduce the old quest would also help. Now this is an OLD old school game !

 

 

This was a world players could live in. Very few carrot-on-a-stick, without fast leveling.

 



I was playing swg when wow came out. Vanilla wow was the most, restricted, linear mmo I've ever played. Only 9 classes, no open world housing, crafting had zero depth. All of your items existed merely as 2d icons on your bag.

 

But it had bright, pretty colors and it had arcade style combat. And it had pop culture references up the wazoo and everybody ate it up.

Now people put vanilla wow in the same category as old school MMOs like uo, swg, ac? No thanks lol

^ this^

Originally posted by Pala
 

Amen!

 

What is it that a new generation of MMOs has brought us? At best you can say optimization and stability and nicer graphics, no real innovation has happened in the last 5 years. Old devs are tweaking what they have done before to make money, because really they dont care anymore. The new young devs are regurgitating and building games by metrics. Stale and boring

 

The only thing of note MMO's have ever brought us, is the ability to interact with more than a deathmatch's worth of players. In regard to innovation, they'll always be behind the curve in terms of game-play.

Originally posted by delete5230

 

I'm sure you could see that

1) People are forever searching for a new mmo, even with over 200 mmos on the list here.

2) A lot of the people are pissed about cash shops.

3) A lot of people are looking for an mmo that will last more than 30 days, they would like to find a home for a long time.

4) Archage, proved that people are looking for an Old school style, but greed got the better of developers.

5) Lots of post on General Discussions Have been made on here, asking for the same thing.

6) Pantheon, is becoming the "looking forward mmo ", because of the promise of old school qualities, and that mmo is years away !

1) the problem here is that some people are always searching for something. Some are essentially never happy with what's there now... that's just a part of human nature.

2) yes some people are, yet some support it frivolously..

3) A lot of people find whats there now suitable for that.

4) yes some people are..

5) Yes and many if not most of those threads are made by the same handful of people, how many have you created thus far as an example?

6) uh, have you paid attention to that prior to pantheon? The game on paper is always the next "big" thing...

Therein lies the point a select few never seem to get, your view isn't the only one out there, how you see things in the genre isn't how everyone does (even among other "vets").

Hence the question I posed of authority on the topic in general. For every argument you bring forward there is a legitimate counter argument. That's the way subjective topics work. No matter how many times you create the same topic, that will be the result. You want to claim it's like this because people "don't get it", it could just as easily be said it is the other way around... you don't get that this is a subjective discussion.

 

Originally posted by delete5230
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by delete5230

Reading most every post, I would say off the cuff that 80% don't get it.

Wait, let's try to think like, you know, mature adults.

So 80% "dont get it". Which means, 80% don't agree with your post. Couldn't it be that actually YOU and the 20% are wrong, and the 80% are actually right?

That's how democracy works.

OK good idea, Lets be mature OK ?

Your saying if a new mmo were made with Old school qualities it would have kill 10 rat quest, low 2001 graphics, and raids that would last 9 hours, and the coding would be a mess.

Is that what your saying ?

 

Like one or not, do you think it would have stick figures ?

First back up, what is it that you think people don't get? Reading all your posts/threads suggests you feel people aren't giving you the authority on this topic you think you deserve. IE the authority on what's good or bad, the authority on what an MMORPG must be, etc... This is a running theme with your threads.

 

Originally posted by Tamanous

This has become a generational thing now. MmoRPG's started to become a big thing 18+ years ago. It has NOTHING to do with graphics as we all adjust to the ever growing technological progression. Those games were different than most of today. You either know the reasons why games have changes or you don't ... I won't rehash them here as I have written many long posts about this already and this forum as been swamped with such threads as well.

 

The core reason why discussing this topic is a difficult one is the same reason why a 40+ year old doesn't hang out with 15-25 year old friends or have many meaningful discussion with them: the difference in life experience. If one does they are mentally and emotionally stunted ... yet everyone on message boards blindly thinks everyone is the same. So much so it appears to almost be a taboo to even mention age difference. Age is a difference. It always has been. It is the entire reason why parents raise and mentor their young. It is the reason why every society's leadership on Earth is filled with aged people. EXPERIENCE.

 

Most here have never played old school mmos during their prime. If they have played them later it is when their graphics and game play mechanics have become aged. By definition this means those experiences are different. The only players who can enter an old school discussion and understand all angles of the conversion are those old enough to have played those games AND ALSO old enough during that time to have played at a maturity level of an adult. Otherwise you are retelling stories of your childhood which are too narrow a viewpoint to compare to adult experiences. This all means very, very few of us on these boards are capable of approaching this subject with fully adult level social experience.

 

I played my first mmo (Asheron's Call ... a game with no 36 hour boss camping so don't think all old school games are the same) when I was 27 or 28 years old. If you think my social experience in that game was the same as someone playing Wow in 2005 when they were a teenager you are out of your mind with delusions. This means that when I played Wow in 2005 I was 34 years old. I was already on my second career and wrapping up my sports career as well. I had been to college twice, lost count of how many girlfriends I had had and been through so many ups and downs in my life that they had now become a blur and I was also attempting to start a real family. The reality of the real world was hitting me hard. ALL of this is impossible for a teenager to grasp until they also have experience all of it.

 

The point to all of this is that WHY we play these games may be the same but WHAT we expect out of such social games is entirely different depending on how much life experience you have. All those things you find important in your teens and even into your 20's is entirely different when you get older ... and I can say this a million times are you won't understand it until you get older.

 

So lets spell this out: Old School games are an adult experience from a time not everyone on this forum was an adult in. You CANNOT understand our viewpoint because you never lived it. It can be further argued that most of the games released over the last 7+ years have not had anywhere near the social demands on it's players as old school games. This further divides everyone's views on this subject. Compare this to the changing real world of fast food, cell phones and convenience and you further strip expectations of social demands in mmos with newer generations. They simply cannot understand old school views because, again, they have not experience it ... and may never will if wrapped up into this new reality.

 

This reminds me of a conversion with a co-worker not long back. I mentioned how I have no real attachment to my cell phone. I can walk away from it and head out for a short time with zero worry about nobody reaching me. Such things as going to the gym is my personal time, my zen time, and phones have no place in it. She couldn't wrap her head around this. She told me in a straight face that I should go seek help because I shouldn't ever feel I should leave my phone behind. She considered it a weakness in me that I couldn't adapt to the "modern" world (I am in IT so I found this rather amusing). The conversation saddened me because I felt very, very sorry for her because this way of thinking saturated all areas of her life which was a chaotic mess of stress and anger. Her mind is fragmented and she lacks a sense of clarity and perspective. If you understand my side of the story you may very well be on your way to understanding the old school mmorpg debate.

I really don't think this hits on point.

It's also assuming young folks can't value socializing as an adult would (or remember it fondly). Who really complains about the social functions of SWG as an example? It made the game, for those both young and old.

Experiencing that stuff as an adult, if anything...makes one (in my experience) realize the shortcomings in those designs more clearly. I'd think it more likely for the young at the time, to gloss over those shortcomings in their recollections today. That's just my take on the same subject.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Dullahan

Its always entertaining to me when the new generation of gamers claim things like death penalties, grouping, and high risk vs reward are so horrid in old games, when many of them play survival games popularized by the same mechanics.  They are literally based on the same elements meant to promote immersion and tension, yet these zombie games that are still on the rise don't get the same outcry of complaints regarding things like having to eat and drink, strength in numbers, downtime, and most of all, permadeath!

 

There is a bit of a difference between the two types of games, especially in terms of time commitment to progress. Those survival games are for the most part twitch based, as well as fast paced. That's a tad different than something like EQ, OG SWG (when there were corpse runs). Etc.. What you'd lose in those took a lot more effort to gain. SOme may argue by design, this was more or less a tool to prolong subscriptions, as much as it was a risk vs reward mechanic, especially things like Xp loss..etc

 

 

Originally posted by Smashix

Guys please read my OP before jumping to conclusions. It wasn't 5 or 6 games, it was 3. 2 of the 3 games use the same installer/launcher and SWTOR did install and run, I just got sick of waiting for "reorganizing data" every time I want to launch the game (yes, EVERY TIME for HOURS).

Just to be really sure, I downloaded and installed Rift overnight and it runs fine.

 

You guys are really missing the point of my OP rant, which is that these gaming companies haven't fixed longstanding issues with their launchers, better launchers are available for these games, and yet they direct new users toward the launchers with the issues.

I get that with TOR but certainly not every time I launch the game, only when there are updates, even then not every-time there's an update (it doesn't happen with small hotfixes, etc.). it usually doesn't take but a few minutes in my case. I don't think it's a Ram or CPU issue on your end, maybe just a slow working HD.

Originally posted by Xorian7
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Akumawraith
Originally posted by Xorian7

I recently thought id try it in a swtor topic boy was that a huge mistake, I mean holy crap talk about solo mmo bias there, I get not everyone wants good group based content like in eq or city of heroes, but gee man it was a horrid argument I could of done better myself but people are way to use to the trash we get these days and that saids allot of things, and because of this the future of mmorpgs ever somewhat even returning to there roots doesnt seem likely.

 

mmorpgs should have a balance of both grouping and solo make both more optional instead of just solo, give people a reason to group make leveling more interesting and longer and etc. Anyways theres just no point in discussing how a community is better when people are encouraged to cooperate better. People who did not play or dont enjoy groups or unique classes will never understand games like eq because they never had it or allow themselves to.

I understand the issue and sympathize, I once tried to talk to a friend who had started WoW back in 2012. I tried to explain why I was leaving last November and not coming back, I explained all the changes that had happened over the years and how the game has declined in Quality since TBC.

 

His response was there was nothing wrong with teh game, it had many things to do and then there were the Amazing raids and dungeons....

 

I was stumped then it hit me.... How do you explain something that they never experienced?

 

No matter how much you tell them the games have changed they will never understand it because they cannot grasp the content that no longer exists. They never ran the older raids with the resistances or better mechanics, They wont understand the different level of skill required to complete a raid because all they have ever known is the item level requirement...

 

Its frustrating, and theres no real answer for it since Developers like Blizzard wont create retro servers and Private servers tend to go monty python and screw things up in their own ways. Its a losing argument and unfortunately most old school players go through this with long running games.

I think everyone understands that these games have changed, it's a matter of whether they think those changes were the right direction or not, regardless of being there or not. It's a matter of what people seek, considering that; there's really nothing to get frustrated about.

Secondly; which this isn't directed at you, rather the overall thread. I find it frustrating that many of the posters often leave an important element out of these discussions. Something that could explain why many fellow veterans and non veterans alike don't exactly miss the old games. Content/gameplay.... as much as grouping was fun at the time playing SWG or DAOC... The only really interesting thing about those games was the player interactions that were allowed. The games themselves were pretty bland. Without those players they would have been nothing at all really.  The little I saw of EQ seemed as though it was the same there, as well as AO, L2, etc... Tech simply didn't allow for much more considering all resource was really put into getting the engines and multiplayer aspects working back then.

That's where games have moved forward, sadly at the cost of multiplayer aspects.

I get that RPers don't really need that, that's how many of us made SWG, UO, etc.. as interesting/engaging as they were. Yet even then it was a relatively low percentage of the overall server base taking part in that stuff on a community level (outside of their guilds).

I think it's completely understandable people would rather play scripted content, experience stories with VO, etc..etc.. with other people. Rather than create their own stories night after night...

 

 

 Well of course they are bland but explain how swg combat system was bland vs others at the time? I am pretty sure it was better then everquests and many other fantasy mmos. And to be fair coh had amazing team and the game never felt bland but the missions did feel repetitive after a while.

And I do not think anyone is really leaving out anything.

 

 

 

 

 

SWG's combat is still one of my favorite systems I've experienced, due to it's multiple damage/armor types, it's too bad there were few interesting fights to be had outside of PVP in that game (AI was abysmal).


Originally posted by JDis25

The Witcher 3 is a great game, and definitely an improvement to Witcher 2. It's more of an open-world action adventure game if you ask me. Some key reasons it isn't an RPG.




 




You can only play as Geralt




You can only use one weapon.




You have the same 5 spells.




Your Geralt is basically the same as my Geralt.




 




This would be similar to games like Assassin's creed, and Batman: Arkham City in which you can sort of choose slight differences and focuses on what you want to specialize in. But I wouldn't consider it an RPG. I do like how there is multiple endings, and that is + on player choice, still wouldn't really consider it a true RPG though.



Is it really all that different than many Jrpgs (FF especially), games like KOTOR, Mass Effect..etc..? To me it isn't. In all of those you play a pre determined character where you shape their decisions.


Originally posted by Akumawraith
Originally posted by Xorian7

I recently thought id try it in a swtor topic boy was that a huge mistake, I mean holy crap talk about solo mmo bias there, I get not everyone wants good group based content like in eq or city of heroes, but gee man it was a horrid argument I could of done better myself but people are way to use to the trash we get these days and that saids allot of things, and because of this the future of mmorpgs ever somewhat even returning to there roots doesnt seem likely.

 

mmorpgs should have a balance of both grouping and solo make both more optional instead of just solo, give people a reason to group make leveling more interesting and longer and etc. Anyways theres just no point in discussing how a community is better when people are encouraged to cooperate better. People who did not play or dont enjoy groups or unique classes will never understand games like eq because they never had it or allow themselves to.

I understand the issue and sympathize, I once tried to talk to a friend who had started WoW back in 2012. I tried to explain why I was leaving last November and not coming back, I explained all the changes that had happened over the years and how the game has declined in Quality since TBC.

 

His response was there was nothing wrong with teh game, it had many things to do and then there were the Amazing raids and dungeons....

 

I was stumped then it hit me.... How do you explain something that they never experienced?

 

No matter how much you tell them the games have changed they will never understand it because they cannot grasp the content that no longer exists. They never ran the older raids with the resistances or better mechanics, They wont understand the different level of skill required to complete a raid because all they have ever known is the item level requirement...

 

Its frustrating, and theres no real answer for it since Developers like Blizzard wont create retro servers and Private servers tend to go monty python and screw things up in their own ways. Its a losing argument and unfortunately most old school players go through this with long running games.

I think everyone understands that these games have changed, it's a matter of whether they think those changes were the right direction or not, regardless of being there or not. It's a matter of what people seek, considering that; there's really nothing to get frustrated about.

Secondly; which this isn't directed at you, rather the overall thread. I find it frustrating that many of the posters often leave an important element out of these discussions. Something that could explain why many fellow veterans and non veterans alike don't exactly miss the old games. Content/gameplay.... as much as grouping was fun at the time playing SWG or DAOC... The only really interesting thing about those games was the player interactions that were allowed. The games themselves were pretty bland. Without those players they would have been nothing at all really.  The little I saw of EQ seemed as though it was the same there, as well as AO, L2, etc... Tech simply didn't allow for much more considering all resource was really put into getting the engines and multiplayer aspects working back then.

That's where games have moved forward, sadly at the cost of multiplayer aspects.

I get that RPers don't really need that, that's how many of us made SWG, UO, etc.. as interesting/engaging as they were. Yet even then it was a relatively low percentage of the overall server base taking part in that stuff on a community level (outside of their guilds).

I think it's completely understandable people would rather play scripted content, experience stories with VO, etc..etc.. with other people. Rather than create their own stories night after night...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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