Personally, the only things I can agree with are WoW has better PvP, animations, and music.  I'd be willing to say Rift absolutely does eveything else better.  Storm Legion feels like the expansion Blizzard has kept screwing up every time they've released a new one.  If you're the type of person that liked WoW in the Burning Crusade era, take a really close look at this game.  Don't let people whining about "WoW clones" scare you away - Rift is a better WoW than WoW is today.

Also, the storyline in Rift isn't bad, it's just not shoved in your face.  Going out of your way to collect books, read quests, and talk to NPCs fills in the details nicely.  These days, Warcraft's lore is laughable in comparison.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Valua

Originally posted by spookymia
If a subscription game with such a huge IP as SWTOR cannot meet it's predicted subscriber amount, and subscription games of the quality of Rift, TERA and the TSW can't meet their targets, GW2 being a B2P game and of the quality it is, is surely expected to meet it's targets. But what if it doesn't? Will that change the MMO industry?

I doubt we'll ever know if it was a huge success. They are not just relying on game sales (as most would believe) they are also relying on active players to buy from their cash shop.

We won't hear nothing if it's doing badly, but we will hear things if it's doing great.

Anyway, the game won't be a success in my eyes until after a year, and then it has to have a large amount of active players (1-5million.)

Dont forget expansions.

But we will hear about it if it is doing badly. ANET will fire a whole bunch of people then like Mythic, FunCom, Bioware and similar companies that made a MMO that underachived. If ANET fired more than 10% of its employees a year from now then it didnt went well.

In my eyes great success is twice the number of GW1 sales, that is 8 million seperate accounts during the games active period (7 years for GW1). Then we are of course talking the same number of expansions as well.

But anything that makes them keep current number of employees are good news.

@Loke666, when people cap their characters, what do you expect players are going to be doing in gw2?  What percentage will stay for the PVP?  How many will leave the game?  How soon will we see a drop off?

But... why does the active player count even matter?  This isn't a subscription based MMORPG.  They don't need millions of people playing for the next eight years - they want the ones that'll stick around, eventually use the cash shop, and then profit off of expansions.  I thought it was pretty common knowledge by now they don't mind if you put up Guild Wars 2 for a few months once you feel like you've beaten it?

A game can be perfectly successful with PvP just for the sake of PvP.  Do you ever hear of Counter-Strike, or StarCraft players complaining that when they win the victory means nothing?  Yes, I know we're used to everything giving us a reward these days, but I've played plenty of games where the only thing you got out of victory was the satisfaction of winning.

That said, I'm curious about how WvWvW will end up over the months, because you've kind of got a point.  My server has been getting kicked around since launch, and the lack of significant reward for winning has kept most people far away.  Why join if you know you're just going to die a bunch and lose for no reason other than server pride?  Personally, the server pride is enough for me.  I don't know if it's enough for everyone else, but we'll have to see.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by tank017

lmao...

 

and so it begins

Much faster than I thought.

 

Wait till the WoW brigade wakes up...

This is a pretty legit complaint, as far as I see.  I'll use the server I want to get in, Tarnished Coast, as an example.  Right now, I can't make a character on there period.  I'll either have to wait until people transfer off or A.Net raises the cap.  I could create a character on another server right now, but I'd need to keep a close eye on TC in order to get in within the next week or else I'm out of luck.

What am I going to do if I miss the chance to join my server of choice?  What are other people going to do?  Throw around talk of guesting all you want - the fact of the matter is most people would prefer to actually be on the same server as their friends, especially if they want to do WvW together.  Not throwing my arms up in a panic yet, but hopefully this'll be handled well.

Originally posted by yaoming36
Since server transfers are free, they can switch to your server :)

Except they aren't going to be free forever, and it's possibly only one.  I have to admit this issue bugs me quite a bit.  I'm looking at a list of six servers that are the only ones I can pick from, none of which have friends or are the unofficial RP server.  It means I'm essentially stuck waiting until I'm sure I can get into the server I want - not too big of a deal, but I bet you're going to hear a lot more complaints if this happens on launch day too.  Guesting isn't in yet.

Originally posted by QuicklyScott

Originally posted by Token1337Guy

I don't mean to assume anything about anyone here, but I completely agree with the people saying it just sounds like it's not for you.

I'll give an example.  I play a lot of of Team Fortress 2, and you could apply the same thing you said about GW2 to it and be completely right.  There's no incentive to play.  You're not going to get rewarded with a bunch of stuff in game for just playing it (the whole weapon drop system aside - you get what I'm saying).

So why do you play?  You don't have any incentive to go play a few rounds.  You don't have any attachment to your control points.

It's because you're having fun.  Have we really all gotten so caught up in the Skinner Box formula that we can't comprehend an MMORPG that's just a game meant to be fun?  Personally, I'd still do WvWvW even if you got absolutely nothing from it.  Because I enjoy it.

 

See that is one of the main problems for me.

A MMO shouldn't be able to be compared to an arcade FPS.  It's even worse when considering the scope for skill in an FPS is a lot broader than in GW.  The two types of games give different feelings and I don't play MMOs for the quick funbeans FPSs give me.

I like long winded MMOs without instant gratification, with tasks others might see as monotonous. They give you the feeling of accomplishment.

Am I on my own on this,  is fun just fun..? 

 

I think I need to keep remembering that GW2 is not sub-based, meaning they don't really need any form of carrot on a stick at all.

 

-sorry for any grammar errors; lack of sleep.

I had a feeling someone was going to take that wrong.  No, I'm not comparing GW2 to an arcade FPS.  If you'd like, I could compare it to Skyrim, or Just Cause 2, or literally any other game out there that you buy just to have fun with and doesn't charge you monthly.  To me, I don't see where people are coming from with this instant gratification stuff.  What were you expecting?

But you hit the nail on the head near the end there.  GW2 does not need to string you along and keep you playing as long as possible.  That means, yes, it may feel 'shallow'.  But I would rather have shallow than WoW's 8 years of dungeon and gear bloat.

I don't mean to assume anything about anyone here, but I completely agree with the people saying it just sounds like it's not for you.

I'll give an example.  I play a lot of of Team Fortress 2, and you could apply the same thing you said about GW2 to it and be completely right.  There's no incentive to play.  You're not going to get rewarded with a bunch of stuff in game for just playing it (the whole weapon drop system aside - you get what I'm saying).

So why do you play?  You don't have any incentive to go play a few rounds.  You don't have any attachment to your control points.

It's because you're having fun.  Have we really all gotten so caught up in the Skinner Box formula that we can't comprehend an MMORPG that's just a game meant to be fun?  Personally, I'd still do WvWvW even if you got absolutely nothing from it.  Because I enjoy it.

They posted again - looks like there's a confirmed no on this weekend.

http://www.facebook.com/GuildWars2

I'm starting to think a few of you don't know what they say about assuming.  I find it nearly absurd there are people accusing the OP of wanting to be constantly entertained and rewarded.  Guess what?  That's exactly what Tera does.  You do quests, get gear, do dungeons, get gear.  There's not much else to do right now, especially on PvE servers.  Before you get on me about server type choice, yes I picked PvE because GvG will eventually make its way there and I don't feel like dealing with roaming groups of gankers all day.

You can dungeon, you can quest.  Crafting is so expensive it's a massive money sink to level up while you're leveling yourself.  The Nexus and political systems aren't turned on right now, which I know is for good reason, but just look at the game.  I really wanted to love Tera, and I've still got hope for it.  It just feels so... shallow.  It's not a great action game, and it's not a great MMORPG.  It could be both, with patches, but I'm waiting to see how dedicated EME is to making it last long instead of using it to make a quick buck before making it F2P.

I must not have come across right, because you've got me pinned entirely wrong.  If I wanted to play a single player RPG, I'd play a single player RPG.  I wouldn't fork over a monthly fee for that.  I'm very aware MMOs are special because of the people.

I do in fact have a guild.  Heck, I'm on the RP server.  I find it a little funny that you don't see TERA as hand-holding progression, though.  Are you sure you've played?  It's a very classic quest hub based game with one clearly defined way to hit the top.

That's my problem with it.

The combat is a blast, but the rest of the game hides behind it.  The world feels cramped, even though it's so big.  This is coming from someone who avoids flight paths, too.

My main point is that if someone reading this is on the fence about buying it, they should watch and wait.  I won't be renewing my subscription after the first month expires, but I'm going to be doing that too.  This could be a really, really good MMO.  It just needs care from developers who want to see it flourish.

I feel inclined to post something in this forum, because I'm feeling a little more than let down by TERA.  I'll admit, I didn't look too far into it before buying it.  One of my good friends insisted it was going to be great, though, so I trusted them and decided to make the jump.  What I found, at first, was absolutely awesome.

TERA isn't the first MMO-ish game to try the action combat thing, but it's definitely the flashiest.  Combat feels very fluid, and it's very refreshing to have the accuracy of attacks based on your own skill (lag permitting).  Each class has a distinct and unique flavor.  They even have an evasion tank based on actually avoiding attacks.

The graphics are... good.  They don't strike me as amazing, but they're definitely high quality.  Places just feel empty to me.  The main city, Velika, has rolling expanses of green hills that honestly look like placeholder terrain as I fly over them.  It's jarring.

I played to around level 40 before I decided I needed a long break from the game.  I rolled on a PvE server, which at the moment does not have Guild vs Guild combat, nor does it have any other form of PvP except duels and team duels (called deathmatches).  So what does that leave me to do? 

Quests.

I know, barely any MMORPGs ship these days feeling fully complete (something I really don't like, but hey).  This, though?  It's a never ending grind to the top, at which point you get a couple of harder instances.  They're going to be turning on a Rift-styled event and the politcal system soon, but...

It all just feels so soulless.  Like the game has loads of flash, but no passion in it.  I keep hearing people telling me to read the quests.  Well, I do, and even the main story quests are flimsy at best.

My impression?  Wait on this game.  Supposedly, battlegrounds will be in by the end of the summer.  I'm feeling very burnt by EME at the moment, but I'm willing to give them a chance.  I wouldn't recommend spending any money on it until EME have shown what type of company they are when it comes to supporting a game.

With a lot of tweaks, this game could be brilliant.  Or, it'll be F2P by this time next year.

It's cool to see Glitch getting some more attention.  I'd say it's definitely not a game for everyone, though.  There's a big emphasis on being social, and frankly if you're just playing by yourself it's not very interesting.  I would offer my invites as well, but I've already sent all three of them out.  If any of you play, feel free to add Oxyidiot to your friends list, or come stop by my home in Louise Pasture.  It's room 1580.

I guess I can bite and post in one of these threads for once.  Your topic title asks what WoW really offers?  It offers all of those things you specifically pointed out it didn't.  World of Warcraft offered, and still offers, something that hadn't been seen in MMORPGs before then: ease of use.  All of those things you listed at the end of your post, from not having to eat to not worrying about dying, even being able to fly around to make things easier... that's what WoW offers.

It removes those things, which for some may be a down side, but to many is the only reason they started playing.  It's a fairly relaxed, stress-free MMORPG.  It attempts to remove the more "annoying" parts of the game, leaving only what Blizzard considers to entertaining portions.  I won't take a side on which is better, since that is my opinion.

As for other games like Rift that offer the same things, but potentially better... well, my opinion is that most newer MMORPGs are too much like WoW.  Perhaps it's burnout with the genre as a whole, but when I log in and don't even have to think about what I need to do, simply following the same pattern I did in WoW... I just feel like playing WoW.  It's why I'm a big fan of games like Battleground Europe, EVE, or even FFXI.  The gameplay is significantly different.

Look at the first-person shooter genre.  While every game can be boiled down to "point at the enemy, shoot them", there is a big difference in how each game feels.  Compare Team Fortress 2 to Call of Duty, or ArmA.  Each game feels like a different game, with enough new things to learn that you feel like you aren't just playing the same game with a different skin.  When I log-in to a lot of MMORPGs, I pick a class, and am presented with the same screen layout, the same NPCs standing around with the same quests.

I'm rambling at this point, but I hope I've gotten what I'm trying to say across.

MXO was half of a great game.  They absolutely nailed the atmosphere of the Matrix.  It was actually one of the few MMOs where not only was RP present, it was incredibly easy to find.  I recall just finding places with people and watching scenes unfold in front of me.  It was absolutely awesome.  Unfortunately, they could have done so much more with the half that a majority of people are into... which was the gameplay.  I'd love to see a new Matrix MMO, but I don't think that it will ever be done.

Right, so, like the topic title says, I'm fond of this game.  Maybe it's because I didn't play back before all of these new changes I see a lot of people talking about.  Maybe it's because I never got used to 200 vs 200 person battles.  But I think, even if I had, I couldn't deny that this game brings something really special to the table.

It's hard for me to place it, really.  Something about logging in, choosing a side, and joining a fight where you can feel like you're making a difference.  Perhaps it's because the thought of an FPS game where every little match actually counts.  It's not like a Counter-Strike or Team Fortress match in that whichever side wins or loses at a town actually gains something.  I guess you could say that ultimately it's just one long, gigantic match, but... that's what draw me to it, I think.  Even with numbers as low as 60 vs 60, there are few - if any - other FPS games that offer matches that big in a persistent world.

I don't know what drew me to post this, really.  Maybe I wanted to see a positive thread.  I like Battleground Europe, despite its flaws, and I suppose that's all that counts when it comes to me.  It's my opinion, and I don't mean to force it on anybody.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by rav3n2

 What the OP forgot to mention is the fact that on the video he posted the whole instance is composed of Walls, how is that better? I really dont know, its 20 times bigger yeah just narrow corridors with shit cubes in the middle of the junctions and some gates, I would take an instance 100 times smaller but with alot more detail and "life" to it than that crap.

 

That zone is very old.. from Velious, their 2nd expansion?

The point is that the zones in EQ are massive, and require more exploration.  That zone I posted is a maze, it's not a matter of going from point A to point B.  There are many ways to go the wrong way.  

Zones these days are too linear, and you don't have to explore or figure anything out.  WoW zones may look more "detailed", but you can't interact with that "more detail".  You don't have to interact with the zone to navigate through it.  So all you are saying is WoW graphics are a little more polished, that doesn't change the fact that the zones are basically linear and trivial to navigate.

In EQ, zones were mazes, and you have to trigger events or do things to get from one location to the other.  I can't think of one zone in WoW where it isn't "Follow the path"

 

You see, while some people might enjoy the maze aspect, and the feeling of being lost (myself included), most frankly don't.  Most people hate feeling lost, frustrated, and having things get in the way of their progress.  Look at Black Rock Depths in WoW.  It's a non-linear instance, it's big, it's maze like, it's epic... and everyone hates it.  These days, MMORPGs are all about ease of access.  If that means cutting out the few who enjoyed being lost, then so be it.

Do you think it will ever actually work well?

I personally don't.

Now, this isn't a thread that exists just to claim that, it's one meant to start a discussion. I might be in a very small minority on this board when I say I'd love a role-playing game that revolves around the role-play rather than the game. But nearly all of the MMORPGs out there don't do that, and for good reason too. A pay-to-play game that was more RP than actual game probably wouldn't fly so well.

Most MMORPGs today are a game first, a narrative second. The cost a ton to develop, a ton to maintain, and can often decide the fate of the studio releasing them. It wouldn't be a gamble to create an expensive game based around RP, it'd be plain bad business sense.

At this point, I've retreated to text-based games. Found a brilliant one, too. But I'd like other people's opinions. Could they make it equal parts game and RP without endangering profits either way?

Originally posted by Teiman

Originally posted by Token1337Guy

But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people.  Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.

My problem with Ryzom, is that is you can't really explore the world. The moment you abandon a zone, you are killed by a high level monster.  So maybe almost everything else is sandbox, but the combat is linear,  you have to have level X +1 to kill monsters of level X.  I don't even hate that, but it stop all my sandboxing.  

I get the feeling that happens in almost every game.  It's not like you could wander around and expect to stand toe-to-toe with the strongest monsters alone.  But you can explore the world just fine, you just need to be careful.  I've even read posts of people looking back on trying to traverse zones in EQ at lower levels, being killed by monsters if they weren't careful.  But they talked of it in a positive light.  Like I said before, it may just be nostalgia taking.

Remember, if you all want games with complex crafting and sandbox gameplay, words mean nothing.  Money talks, and it's telling developers to stay away.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

I was just pointing out, that AAA developers have already done this. Ryzom is also the first MMO to come with a user editor (that CoH/V recently added). The fact that the NGE happened, kinda shows the point, that they are not popular.

 

 

 

There are TON of Sandbox MMOs out there. Ryzom, Wurm Online, A tale in the desert..To name a few.

 

That's another thing... I play Ryzom, and I used to play a whole lot of Wurm Online.  Both of them are sandbox driven games that sound a lot like what people on MMORPG.com say they'd play in a heartbeat.  Now, I can understand Wurm Online's low population completely.  It's not exactly the most beautiful game to look at, and the combat is... well, I tried to avoid dealing with it.  Not to mention how incredibly difficult it can get.

But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people.  Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.