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All Posts by Joeyjojoshabadu

All Posts by Joeyjojoshabadu

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110 posts found
Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
Riiight. Given the last two comments, it's clear the intellectual waters are too deep for me, so I'll get out of the pool now. I'll be over here teaching differential calculus to my cat. :-)

Yes we get it. I already picked up that vibe from you. Your too smart to engage those who are inferior to you, right?

"You're"

Thanks. See you can teach your inferiors afterall but I was under the impression you had better things to do than that.

This guy is full of it. He does not have better things to do (and even if he did, why correct a grammatical error if he understood your statement? ... on the internet no less?), first of all. Second of all, he has already lost any debating material he had. This is to say, he has nothing left with respect to the conversation at hand. I have seen this same tactic used when debating religious folk, their end of discussion is always, "read the book." So this turn of conversation comes as no surprise. He will not touch my reply given relativistic field equations and quantum gravity, because he can not. He will not be able to Google that information either.

*Rolls eyes* Oh dear Lord...

 

Anyhow, now that the moron twins have hopefully gotten that out of their system, I'd suggest that if people are so concerned they should possibly send the Massively editors an email asking about their categorisation system. They may have some solid reasons for grouping 'non MMORPG' games under the MMORPG umbrella. I doubt they are doing it capriciously.

 

Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
Riiight. Given the last two comments, it's clear the intellectual waters are too deep for me, so I'll get out of the pool now. I'll be over here teaching differential calculus to my cat. :-)

Yes we get it. I already picked up that vibe from you. Your too smart to engage those who are inferior to you, right?

"You're"

Riiight. Given the last two comments, it's clear the intellectual waters are too deep for me, so I'll get out of the pool now. I'll be over here teaching differential calculus to my cat. :-)
Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by Pratt2112
Originally posted by Zarf42
Are semantics really that important?

Well, I think it goes beyond semantics.

Words and Labels carry certain freight. They have implicit and, often, explicit meanings. So if you say something is a MMORPG, there are immediate associations made with that term; certain expectations of what the game will have, how it will play, etc. If you call it a MMOFPS.... again... there are immediate associations made.

Same goes for any other genre or sub-genre. The terms exist because they are descriptive and provide an immediate idea of what the game is like... even before someone necessarily knows what it's about.

For example...

An Action-Adventure, and Action-RPG describe two very different types of games. The 'Action' part is consistent, but the 'RPG' and "Adventure" labels indicate very different types of games. For example, Diablo is an Action-RPG. The Legend of Zelda is an Action-Adventure. 

This is why it drives me nuts when people sloppily and carelessly throw around terminology, and why it does actually matter if, for example, someone refers to Diablo/II/III as a MMORPG - because it isn't, and never has been one.  It's an Action-RPG with an optional multiplayer mode. Not a "MMO-Action RPG". Just an "Action-RPG".

And before someone says "who are you to declare what genre Diablo is?" - I'm not. Blizzard is. Per their own website, Diablo, and its sequels, are all Action-RPGs. Meanwhile, WoW is a MMORPG, etc. They make that distinction for a reason, and it isn't "just semantics". 

"So what? Who cares what people call them?!" you might ask. Well, I'd say everyone should and, even if they don't realize it, probably does care. Why? Because, again, terms/labels carry certain meanings/freight.

For example...

If a person sees a game on a store shelf, or on Steam or whatever, and it says its an 'Action-RPG', there's an immediate association made with that, with a certain playstyle, combat setup, etc. etc. They're more likely to think of Diablo, than WoW, or Starcraft, etc. So, they buy the game, get it installed and, upon starting it up and creating a character, find that it plays nothing like an Action-RPG. It's actually more like WoW than Diablo. 

That label - "Action RPG" matters, because it implied a certain type of experience which the game, ultimately, does not deliver. The game was mis-labeled and, hence, misleading. The game the person got isn't what it was advertised as. That matters.

Words and their meanings are not so malleable that we can just twist them around to fit whatever definition we need/want them to. Yet so many people try to do just that. It's not only entirely dishonest, it causes a lot of unnecessary confusion and conflict. Because, instead of discussing the merits of the game itself, these discussions often get sidetracked into debates over "whether it's  a MMO or not", or whatever. How can you discuss the merits of a game when people can't even find common ground on what kind of game it is?

To argue "it's just semantics" is to not understand - or just ignore - all this.

*BUMP* for the idiots that are actually able to just jump right on over this too apparently.

I am pretty sure "Freight" was supposed to be "Weight" or "Baggage", but the points in this post are dead accurate otherwise.

But what does that matter? Right? 

 

Actually, I found his points to be a bit simplistic and naive.

 

Originally posted by nilden

Oh give me a break they are not broadening the term they are incorrectly using the acronym.

 

Just like the word decimate, eh? You must be fun at parties.

 

Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Terms change and evolve. This is completely normal. Many/most words or terms have evolved in every language  For example, "decimate" historically meant to kill a tenth of a group of people, now it means to kill a lot. When people point out that decimate 'actually' means 10% they simply come off as pedantic and inflexible (and a bit of a bore, to be honest).

 

Few more examples: "nice" originally meant foolish or simple-minded, "awful" meant inspiring or wonderful, "terrific" meant to inspire terror. Etc. In a purely technical sense, those last two should have kept their initial definitions. Awful - full of awe. Terrific - terror producing. But the context and meanings have changed and the world didn't implode. The terms function perfectly well as they are.

 

Edit: I should note that it is perfectly understandable that terms like MMORPG are evolving, considering the huge and rapid changes in technology, participation, diversity of games, etc. And also that we are creating new terms all the time to help categorise and identify sub-genres: "themepark", "lobby game", etc. More evolution.

Only, in this instance, the proposed evolution isn't a change in specific meaning.  Rather, it's advocating the term is generalized to a point where it holds no real meaning.  According to the definition used by the OP, MMO just means multiplayer.  That's redundant, and as such isn't an appropriate evolution of the term.  "Terrific" wasn't devalued; it changed in nature.  Same with "awful".  If we take the evolution described by the OP and applied it in the same manner to the evolution of the word "terrific," the result isn't a word meaning "of great size, amount, or intensity" (something substantially different from terror and, thus, worthy of its own unique term) but rather a term that means "terror".  Which, again, is redundant.  Same with "awful".

But, according to the pedants, "decimate" became a more generalised term, losing it's specific meaning. And there are plenty of similar examples. All languages are replete with them. However, the examples I gave were mostly to demonstrate how language evolves, they weren't provided as analogous examples to the evolution of the term MMORPG, though I'm positive if we did a bit of general etymological exploration we could find plenty of examples of words/terms being generalised (with associated historical claims that the word is now rendered 'meaningless', I'm quite sure). But you didn't acknowledge my other point: that new specific terms are being generated all the time to deal with the rapidly changing nature of gaming. Given the nature of language and gaming, it would actually be more surprising if the words and terms weren't rapidly evolving.

 

We've seen a rapid diversification of games, games often borrow from a range of categories (FPS with strong RPG elements, etc), new sub-genres of games are being created. The gaming world is going through huge, rapid changes. It only makes sense the language and terminology does the same. The term MMORPG has become a more generalised category as a response to this, and I think that's perfectly fine, particularly given that we have new terms for sub-genres being created all the time: MOBAs, themeparks, sandboxes, etc, etc.

Terms change and evolve. This is completely normal. Many/most words or terms have evolved in every language  For example, "decimate" historically meant to kill a tenth of a group of people, now it means to kill a lot. When people point out that decimate 'actually' means 10% they simply come off as pedantic and inflexible (and a bit of a bore, to be honest).

 

Few more examples: "nice" originally meant foolish or simple-minded, "awful" meant inspiring or wonderful, "terrific" meant to inspire terror. Etc. In a purely technical sense, those last two should have kept their initial definitions. Awful - full of awe. Terrific - terror producing. But the context and meanings have changed and the world didn't implode. The terms function perfectly well as they are.

 

Edit: I should note that it is perfectly understandable that terms like MMORPG are evolving, considering the huge and rapid changes in technology, participation, diversity of games, etc. And also that we are creating new terms all the time to help categorise and identify sub-genres: "themepark", "lobby game", etc. More evolution.

Typically Action RPG = hack & slash, and Diablo is still most commonly identified as an (action) RPG. Google if you must. If you want to create personal definitions for terms that's your business, but it makes for a semantic argument and a pretty pointless one at that.

 

Originally posted by Sulaa
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Sulaa

 

It is not MMORPGs only as well.  In example many single player/multiplayer games defined as "RPG" are not RPG for me.  Example - Diablo.  I don't consider it an RPG.  It is hack&slash, not an RPG.

So what?

I like Diablo 3, and i will play it whether it is called a hack & slash, ARPG, RPG or even MMO. Label of a game has no effect on whether i like a game or not.

 

Chair and table don't have to be named chair and table, they can be both be called chair and it won't have any effect on how much I will enjoy sitting on them or eating from them.

Still it is  better to call them by two separate names instead of one shared name.

 Poor analogy. Diablo, for example, clearly contains RPG elements. Few modern games are 100% categorisable, as most contain elements from different genres. Given that, it seems a bit silly to fervently argue for absolute categorisation of modern games.

 

 

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

OP, I think many people would like those features, but I disagree that they are "niche".  Just because we are in the "Dark Ages of WOW Clones" does not mean there isn't a huge population of gamers clamoring for the features you listed.  That games like Minecraft and Eve are widely popular despite harsh gameplay (hardcore PVP) or harsher graphics (Minecraft makes Legos look like circles) tells me that mainstream MMO marketing is just missing the elephant in the room.

I'd keep my eyes on EQ Next and see if they stay true to their vision, and implement well.  From several gaming forums, I sense many people are frustrated with the "cutscene prison" and want off of rails really, really bad.  They just need a first class game to come along.

 

I'd cautiously agree with EQ Next. Cautiously because I, like many here, have been burned by hype and devs blindly chasing the WOW dollar (most recently for me was ESO - bland, clunky themepark). But my hope lies in how great the devs are at communicating and continually improving Landmark, which is ostensibly part of the foundational development for Next. I think this is a clever and solid development model i.e. visibly and publicly developing good gameplay and mechanics first, in an open player-modifiable world (and note that I'm not actually a fan of Landmark, but I nevertheless respect the approach). And with Next SOE at least appears to be more focused on creating a liveable world than the conga-line of underwhelming themepark clones we've seen over the last few years.

 

Of course it may turn out to be another disappointment. Time will tell.

Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Lonzo
Landmark is no game, it is an editor and EQ2 will out when? 2016?

You're half-right. Landmark is the building block / test client for what will be EQ Next. But what these two games / clients are trying to accomplish hasn't really been done before. Or at least not as an MMO. It's ambitious, and will take time.

Take a look at the games SOE has made over the years. Most of them are fairly unique titles if not pioneers. Heck, their most famous game (Everquest) provided the blueprint for which WoW copied and become a success.

If there is a problem to bring up about SOE, it wouldn't be with their ability to innovate or make quality games. It would be with their ability to then ruin those games with questionable business models / practices.

Yes, I'd rather they take their time and proceed cautiously and professionally. Learn the lesson from ESOs disastrous rushed release (and every content patch for that matter).

 

In the last 4 months WOW has increased subscriptions by 600,000, the increase alone is more than the total subs of most other MMOs. For this reason small number polls like this and the criticisms from WOW haters are akin to gnats buzzing and whining at a battleship: completely irrelevant.

 

Affected, not effected.
I predict solid disappointment when the justice system is finally released. Why? Because nothing released so far in the game has even remotely been as cool or engaging as it appeared 'on paper' (see Craglorn for a particularly salient example). The execution has every time fallen far short of the hype.

It's funny how the OP and others are squarely blaming players for the failure of various games. People will buy a game due to hype, but they will continue to play it if it is enjoyable to do so. Most of the games that have failed to retain the expected amount of subs did so because of both of the above reasons: because the game was not as good as the hype, and because it wasn't fun to play for more than a few weeks/months.

 

This isn't particularly a good sign. Smacks a bit of desperation, actually. I think ESO fans have some rather nasty shocks coming in the early-mid future (few others would be shocked, though they would too if they only hung round the somewhat delusional echo chambers that are reddit/ESO forums).

 

A Hooloovoo - a hyper-intelligent shade of the colour blue.
I liked the UO system: a range of skills that were free for anyone to put points into, and a fixed number of points. You increased skills by doing them, and you could lock them in or decrease one skill to favour another. Hugely flexible - far more so than either defined classes or skill trees.
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by PioneerStew

Vast resources go into developing an mmo world for players to level through, but a month after release these worlds are normally almost entirely empty.  

 

It's the classic disconnect between what the makers want to create and what they see as the broad commercial market wanting.

 

It's a bit of a result of an ongoing idealogical war between artists and accountants tbh.

I think this is correct. They see WOW sub numbers being vastly higher than any other mmo and they get tunnel vision. SWTOR, ESO, WS are classic examples of this. ESO is particularly frustrating to me in this regard because the SP games were renowned for their open world nature.

Actually UO was one of the few MMORPGs that I've played where I didn't sense any grind (in my playstyle that is) to reach a certain level. I just explored and did things and my stats increased accordingly. It was exciting to be able to finally tackle that ettin solo, or tame a great hart, or buy a boat and explore further.

 

Quest hubs and levelled zones feel much more of a grind to me.

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