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All Posts by Joeyjojoshabadu

All Posts by Joeyjojoshabadu

8 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last
143 posts found
Originally posted by Gravarg
My time is worth more than any sub or cost I've ever had to pay for in a game.  Think of it as like a job, if I get paid ~$50-60 an hour, then it equals that I'm paying the game company $50-60 an hour to play their game.


I completely agree, and I'm surprised that many people completely ignore this when talking about a game's value.


In most debates about F2P I've seen the sentiment that you lose nothing of value by playing the game because it is free. This argument, or variants of it, is often used to excuse mechanisms, such as intrusive advertising, gambling industry tricks, constant paywalls that can and typically do negatively affect gameplay (unless you pay, of course)*. "Who cares if the game is not great, or shoves monetization in your face, it's free!".


The problem is, this sentiment is only true if your time is valueless. 


MMORPGs by nature are typically time-intensive, and with a huge range of gaming (and other lifestyle) options out there, your time is a highly valuable commodity.


For example: I'd rather spend $100 on a game that gives me 20 good solid, fun hours of gameplay than play 100 hours on a mediocre, but free game that bludgeons me with all the F2P mechanisms I mentioned. Because though I'm not wealthy by any means, I'm factoring in time as well as money spent in terms of how I judge a game's value. 




*This is not the place to make the argument "F2P devs need these mechanisms to make money" because not only is that argument a given, it misses the point I'm making.


After the full loot PK and griefing in UO, nothing anyone did in other MMOs bothered me. Some people are just extremely sensitive.


Originally posted by Jacxolope
Originally posted by Axehilt
Well maybe someday a survival game will come around which isn't 90% running, 9% digging through trash (leaving 1% actual gameplay.)  When that happens it'll basically be the WOW of survival games. Til then, it'll keep enjoying its limited appeal as a genre but never quite breaking out.  But since they're really cheap games to make there will probably be a ton of offerings, because you don't have to charge much to be profitable, so a lot of shots on goal will be taken and we might see that gameplay-focused survival game come out relatively quick.

My thoughts exactly. This is where the real sandbox experience is going to happen.

My third day playing 7 days I hooked up with some people who had a community castle they had built and designed. I got sent on a reckon mission with a couple guys into a neighborhood crawling with hordes of Zombies. We needed to hit a bookstore so I could get some skills.

We sat there, hidden in the grass watching the neighborhood and trying to figure out the best way to approach the problem. For 20 mins or so we talked it out and planned our strategy. 

We could make it to the closest building, break in and get to the roof and construct a platform across the city rooftops until we hit our target and could break in through the roof. We could tunnel under the city and try to gauge where we could surface in the basement of our target. We could stealthily move through the city avoiding contact and using silent weapons.We could run in and gun down the Zombies but face the potential of attracting more- In the end we decided to kite the largest amount of zombies we could and then use stealth to sneak into the city while our allies were leading the zombies away.

-Thats good stuff. To have to plan and have options availible rather than the typical mmorpg approach of- Kill mobs,move forward, kill mobs.

Thats just a small sample of the sheer amount of thinking and overcoming obstacles that this game throws at you- I am loving it. If this takes off we could see some amazing games in the next 10 years. If it gets as popular as wow the whole genre will stagnate...Sadly.

Heres hoping it stays niche enough to keep its roots and yet popular enough to evolve into the promise land of incline.=P

I think this is the start of an awesome era in gaming once the kinks are worked out.


Yes, 7 days to die is great fun. And you're right, MMOs have devolved in the other direction. Away from dynamic worlds with risk, depth and detail (which remarkably indie game like 7 days to die can manage on a vastly smaller budget), they've become bloated marketing exercises with celebrity voices, quest markers and cash shops. The modern MMO target is the 2% of obsessive compulsives or gambling addicts who'll be mesmerised by the grind while buying everything in the cash shop - the "whales". People say MMOs aren't dead, but traditional theme park MMOs have lost their way and maybe OP is correct in that  the future must lie in a different direction.


1. ESO


3. Wildstar/Archeage


These are proportional scores. I.e. I think ESO is a better game than Wildstar/Archeage (and about on par with SWTOR), but it was hyped way more. Celebrity voice actors, huge cinematic promo videos, etc. Was writing cheques the devs couldn't cash.

And I have to laugh at people saying WoW was a fail, because if it is, I have some very bad news about, well, every other MMO.


ESO has improved slightly, but not enough. It's still a dull game. B2P and a new release (which is only really a few minor changes ultimately) will only be a short reprieve from its downward spiral. In the next few years it'll either end up shut down or a small, mostly ignored niche game. Shameful that they used the IP from such a great franchise to make such a mediocre game.


"The tall poppy syndrome is a pejorative term primarily used in the United KingdomAustraliaNew Zealand and other Anglosphere nations to describe a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers."


Replace "people" with "games" and explains a lot of the WoW (and other big names) hate. Common phenomenon also with coffee, music, wine, food, etc snobs. Anything hugely popular, successful, "mainstream" = bad because reasons. Usual rationalisations are something about "sheeple" or the inevitable and absurdly trite McDonalds analogy (which in itself is a clear association fallacy).


I think the big problem is that companies are designing their games with whales as their prime targets. That's the entire concept of whales, after all (it's was created as a marketing term). So game design, mechanics, player/company interactions, and overall gaming experience are being shifted toward this kind of targeted monetization. Rather than just being a sub or box/xpac sales, this monetization suffuses most aspects of the gaming experience. The tricks and methods being used are becoming more like those used in the gambling industry.


Originally posted by Gdemami


Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by muffins89 seriously. league of angels, astro lords, world of tanks. people say the mmo is dying. I think it's about to hit it's prime.
Am I the only one that read this as a sarcastic post?


Poe's law, man.


I guess you do not sense the irony going on in your post and the poster you replied to...


Socratic it is then.


Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by muffins89

seriously. league of angels, astro lords, world of tanks. people say the mmo is dying. I think it's about to hit it's prime.


Am I the only one that read this as a sarcastic post?


Poe's law, man.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
No. There is no difference at all between fun and perceived fun. It is all ALL perception. If you perceive that you are having fun than you are having fun. If you are having fun it's because you perceive you are having fun.

They are the exact same thing.


But perception can be manipulated. It's the essence of advertising - get people to buy things, to want things that they didn't before. Change people's perception so they feel rewarded by buying this product, or neglected if they don't. MMO's function almost solely on this false reward system, and devs know it. Set it up so people will grind for hours for a bit of shiny or a pixel costume or imaginary gold. The longer you can keep people on that treadmill, the longer they pay the sub.


I've been wondering if the console release will be enough to pull ESO out of the fire. In terms of subs it tanked hugely since release, for a variety of oft-mentioned reasons such as buggy initial release, not living up to expectations of ES fans, repeated buggy and flawed updates, very poorly implemented placeholder for higher level progression (VR system), poor and degrading PvP performance, etc.


My prediction: after an initial infusion of cash from early adopters on console, a few months later the vast majority will leave and the game will limp along with a very small population of loyalists, just as it has done on PC over the last 6 months. Oh, and the PC side will sort of mirror this, but with a smaller rise but equivalent fall. I expect the PC side to be unprofitable but propped up from the minimal sales the console is making.


The reason: it's just not a very engaging game. It's average. Other ES games went gangbusters on console because they were great games. ESO is just OK. On PC it didn't capture the hearts and minds like the single player ES games did, and it will do even less so on console. In addition, ESO appeals to an older crowd. It has a slower pace and is a bit simpler than most MMORPGs. The extreme casual nature may be attractive to many console players, but the slow pace will turn many off. The average/lackluster design and gameplay, combined with the slower pace and basic content means it won't have broad appeal like the single player ES games, but will be a fairly small niche in the end.


I've seen repeated time and time again that ESO "had/has potential". The idea of an ES MMORPG had potential, but the dev's vision, from the ground up, is what has made this a niche game. I mean, many people, as well as this article, have mentioned the problems with buggy updates, bad PvP performance, poorly designed VR system, and now limited updates and PC players being marginalised, but that's looking at the branches and not seeing the roots of the issue. Which is that at it's heart (and everywhere else that's apparent), that the devs have been and will continue to be only capable of designing a game that is just - meh.



WoW heirloom gear scales with your level. Then you can keep max enchanting them as you raise your enchant skill.
Originally posted by filmoret
First would you explain what you call linear questing and then tell us what exactly is the alternative?  The only thing I can figure is a zone mixed with all kinds of level mobs.  I don't see how a mmo can exist if it doesn't have zones that have certain level mobs in those zones.  How would you feel as a lvl 20 running into a level 90 group of mobs?  I think the market has done an excellent job in placing super strong mobs in every area.   But mobs that are unkillable is more realistic however do you really as a lvl 90 want to visit a level 20 area just to kill that group of mobs placed there?

You and most devs too, apparently. Fortunately, some gaming companies can think outside that awfully restrictive box. Heck, Ultima Online was one of the first MMOs and it had no zones. As a noob you could indeed wander into a valley inhabited by cyclops, or encounter a wandering gazer in the forest and have your pink arse handed to you. Added to the excitement and danger in fact.

I much prefer it that way over shoebox zones of fixed level mobs and quest hubs. That's like playing in a filing cabinet filled with "choose your own adventure" books.


Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by mrneurosis
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by mrneurosis
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
I think the main problem is most people have not tested at Alpha or Beta stage of development. I have tested more games then I can count over the 16 years I have been MMOing. Early access means a not fully functioning game with bugs and thats the norm in testing. If you are willing to pay to get into a beta program, you have no right to cry about it. You wana get into a beta or alpha program so badly you are willing to pay for it, then accept what comes with that. Bugs, broken system and not all content is flushed out. Devs run betas to work that stuff out and thats what testing means, pay for it or its free. I personally think they should start adding NDAs to paid betas. Should stop the number of cry babies. 

I did too but during those days we didn't use to pay full box price for that and it was actually testing and not just some PR stunt.

No PR stunt, big label saying pay x amount of money, play our alpha or beta. Money, play beta. Willing to pay means dont cry when the game is in a stat that every MMO has been in at Alpha and Beta stages of development. Thats why I think they neeg back the NDA, help people see what they are entering. If you do post and cry about it, your account should be closed and your money lost forever. 

Once you start charging people full amount to play or test the game you become open to criticism. call it 'crying ' if you will but players have all the right to cry after forking out the cash. Now if they were testing a free product that would be adifferent matter.

My wife is baking a new cake she has never made before and asks me to come taste the batter for flavor. If I start yelling at her because the cake is not light and fluffy, Im a nut bar. Even if she charged me money to come taste it I would still be a nutter as its not a cake yet just batter. This is the same with paying for beta testing. Its beta. How can you expect anything more then what every Aplha and Beta project has been for 16 years of MMOs? If you do, your a nutter.

Haha. I love how people frequently use absurd analogies when talking about MMOs. It's great.


But silly analogies aside, one issue I have with early release is that it often robs the devs/bean counters of the impetus to finish the damn game. They're already getting people to pay for a half-baked (hehe) game, so why rush? I've seen a number of games stuck in this alpha/beta limbo.


Originally posted by Dreamo84
The subscription will be a must down the line when new players are looking at 15 DLCs to buy.

Nah, most companies who use the B2P/sub hybrid make the older DLCs free after a set time. Need to strike a balance between maintaining subs, but not presenting too big a barrier for new B2P players to come in.


But I think what they will do, also as other B2P/sub games do, is get in a lot of B2P players initially, then up the gold/xp/etc % gain as an enticement for their now increased playerbase to switch to subs. I'd bet actual money that after 6 months or less you'll see the sub gain increase to 30%/40%/50%. This would be the smarter option in terms of generating and maintaining revenue.


My favourite MMO by a considerable margin was Ultima Online. No levels, no zones, no quests. Second favourite was WoW, with levels, zones and themepark quests. I prefer the former, but the latter did what they did with a level of professionalism, as well as polish and content, that is still not present in almost all of the more recent MMOs. Where the other MMOs fail in following WoW is not that they are emulating some of WoWs features, but that they are doing so poorly (i.e. with less polish and professionalism).


It's just jealousy. If there is one thing that uber-nerds do well, it's rationalising their jealous hatred of those bigger and stronger than they are (and since WoW is vastly bigger and stronger than their favourite MMO ...).


I generally agree with you and I think the majority of people who bought the game dropped it for similar reasons. Honestly, in terms of gameplay, and in comparison to most other MMOs, ESO is clunky and lacklustre. Actually, after the B2P announcement, I'm seeing a whole lot of (former) fanboys finally stating that they have had the same issues with the game as you, but they previously were forcing themselves to stick with the game due to continually drawn out hope that the game would improve and a misplaced sense of loyalty to the series and the developer.
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