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All Posts by Rhoklaw

All Posts by Rhoklaw

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1798 posts found
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Axehilt

The problem is WOW set a very high bar and did things right, and nobody else even met the bar.

WoW is indeed the "king" because it has both: the incredibly detailed world, AND the fantastic gameplay.

WoW is only the king because game developers / distributors continuously make completely asinine decisions. Take ArcheAge for instance. Sure, it's a Korean game and maybe Trion had ZERO choice in whether to implement the cash shop or not. However, had ArcheAge been a subscription only game, much like it was in Founder's Alpha phase, it would have trampled WoW's success along with all other MMO's on the market. ArcheAge at launch offered more game features that meshed so well together than any other MMO that they never would have stood a chance. Now, I think of ArcheAge as one of the biggest game flops in MMO history in regards to what it could have been.

It's under the radar because progress has been slow. Of course, it's a small team working on the game, but that is the downfall of indie game developers. They can kickstart a game to avoid suits interfering, in order to make a game they want, but they also run the risk of losing interest due to how long development takes.
I'd rather play 7 days to die than The Crew or Destiny.
Originally posted by TiamatRoar
Originally posted by Talonsin

If you play casually and dont get caught up in the "Keep up with the Jones" it can be a fun game for a few months.  I liked the fishing, farming and traderun thing for a bit but then when you hit endgame and get owned continuously by whales, followed by running out of labor in 30 minutes each day even as a subscriber, the game gets old quick.  You find yourself not logging in for a day or two while your labor regenerates or worse, leaving your PC on 24/7. 

As you can see, alas, one major half of the update (the Mistmerrow PvP zone) is intended to force you to keep up with the Jones.

 

Of course, PvP events forcing you to keep up with the Jones is one of the primarcy core tenets of the Pay-to-Win business strategy.

Whether it's XLGames or Trion at fault, doesn't matter since ArcheAge is currently a huge cash shop cluster!@#%. ArcheAge reminds me of Nexon's Combat Arms or crap like Farmville where the only thing that matters in those games is the amount of money you spend. Horrible game vision and possibly the biggest mistake for games like ArcheAge which have a huge potential due to game features in the Pay 2 Play market. Than again, maybe there are enough rich gamers out there that simply don't give a rats ass how much money they throw at a company so long as they are #1.

Founder's Pack Alpha will always be the way ArcheAge should have been in my opinion. I'd actually play if there was a server like that, but I'll just assume XLGames/Trion are just too greedy to wait for profits of that sort.

Vanilla EQ was the bomb and EQ2 was a pleasant upgrade with a much better crafting system. However, EQNext sounded great at first, which it seems a lot of people are stating in this thread. As of right now though, it makes me feel like Action Combat MMO's were designed by FPS fans which really ticks me off because EQ and EQ2 were RPG games, focused on adventure and socialization. So much for that franchise maintaining a proper RPG vision.

I see more and more posts stating people don't want to pay the amount of gold it's at because you will get bored or you'll just spend all your time farming gold or whatever. If that is the case, the price of tokens will drop, not rise. Which means if you want a good price on tokens, it's best to understand just how much gold the average player can make a month comfortably without being forced to farm it.

If you can farm 1000 gold a day comfortably, than I would expect the price of tokens to float around 30k gold. If the average player can only managed making 3000 gold a week, than maybe the price of tokens will float around 12k gold. This is exactly the same system as GW2's gems which are purchased for real money and can be sold for gold. The price of gems are based of supply and demand and not decided by either party.

My problem with non trinity or lack of defined roles is that I don't feel any different than anyone else. If everyone else can basically do what I can do, than how important am I? Class defined roles adds a sense of pride to your character and sets you apart from everyone else. In fact, games like Shadowbane, DAoC and CoH/CoV were probably some of the best designed games in terms of class variation while still utilizing the trinity system. Games where everyone does DPS and has self heals just turn me off in regards of traditional RPG elements.

I also enjoy the alternative method more associated with sandbox style games known as skill based class systems, such as UO, AC, Anarchy Online and Darkfall. Where players are given complete control in a very wide variety of skills.

Then you have games like SWG which allowed you to dabble in a multitude of defined class trees or focus on 2 or 3.

GW2's class system is basically still a restricted class role without the trinity which is probably the worst setup currently on the market. If you aren't going to use a trinity system, no problem. Just don't use a class restricted system associated with such trinity style games.

 

Of all the MMO's I've ever played, which class was my favorite? Hmmm....

I guess that would be my Avalonian Sorcerer from DAoC and charming the giant trees to hide 40 people inside for surprise ambushes in the Frontiers.

Good times

Crafting, Resource Gathering and City Building / Management = Star Wars Galaxies.

Best PvP / PvE Mix = Dark Age of Camelot

Best Character Creation = City of Heroes / Villains

Best Story Arc = Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

If I had to choose which was the best of the best, I'd have to go with SWG. The game was 2nd to none in so many ways.

I don't play Eve either for the very same reason. However, there are good people that play Eve too, but chances are, no of the good corps will trust a new player enough to let them join. Eve is a ruthless game which is why you find the so called "psychopaths" to be a prevailent bunch. It's a niche game, but it still has it's perks which is why I don't think it will ever cease to exist.
Originally posted by Tutu2
Originally posted by Gorwe
Originally posted by Valentina
Originally posted by Distopia

Might want to read this short tweet OP.

 

https://twitter.com/TESOnline/status/372017971423498240

Rekt.

Let me rek this for you:

Remember Oblivion Crisis(or Oblivion Incursion, whatever)? The time when Mr.Dagon decided to have fun with Tamriel? ... Naturally! As would people in Tamriel. Now riddle me this:

How come NOBODY(including Tribunal + Ur who were, get this, ALIVE during second age!) on Tamriel remembers the first Oblivion Crisis then? Of course, I am talking about the events that transpire within the time depicted in ESO. Assault of Molag Bal? How come nobody remembers that? Hm?

Corollary: ESO is not canon.

QED rekt!

It's cannon and obviously has been officially stated as cannon. Time to get over it. 

I'll be the first to say, no, it's not cannon, but I'll also be the first to say, I really don't give a !#%@ either.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Nah. I'm good. We didn't say there weren't other things to EQ or that the other things in EQ weren't fun. I mean, I even specifically stated that the other things were present and fun when I said "... we didn't like to grind mobs because we were doing other things in game that we found more fun" but evidently if there's ANY aspect of EQ a person states they don't like, you get defensive and off topic. You're still arguing against points/stances that no one has made, so I guess we're done here. Thanks for the colors, though! 

Sorry, but I never got off topic. It's called debating and using examples to make a point. Not to mention I believe I commented on this thread before you did. I also brought these so called points/stances up at that time when you claim no one did. Not that it matters, but the fact you didn't like EQ is also fine. As I've stated, there's plenty of instant gratification MMO's out there. This thread was definitely not meant to promote them.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Rhoklaw
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Rhoklaw
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience. 

Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.

Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"

Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.

Me not wantng to bang my head against the wall every day for few hours doesnt make me ADD, unable to keep focus.

The "real" MMO failed when much more enjoyable alternative appeared and everyone jumped ship from "real" MMO.

Yeah, farming same pixies for 6 weeks few hours a day. Those were the days. not

Thank you, Malabooga. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that was a strange leap of logic.

Rhoklaw,  your post seems to indicate you really haven't played anything outside of linear level grinds, so I'll write off your comment to just a lack of experience. While EQers were stalwartly braving the monotony of grinding to prove their manhood in a 'true' MMO. The rest of us were doing all sorts of 'instant gratification' things because of our 'younger generation ADD' (oh, those darn instant gratification kids spoiling MMOs back then!):

  • - building and maintaining player-run venues like
    • taverns
    • gambling halls
    • player cities
    • RP environments
    • fight arenas
    • mage towers and other SIG venues
  • - roleplaying, fighting and socializing in the above player-run venues
  • - organizing monthly meetings of the Monarchs (guild leaders) of our servers to address community issues and concerns
  • - organizing/joining content teams (official or player-run) to create quests, story arcs and plot characters based on official lore
  • - engaging in activities that require little or even zero combat such as being a dedicated crafter, fisherman, treasure hunter, baker, veterinarian, or even a rogue that does rogue things other than just backstab and hide.
So, yes, we had a different experience. For some reason the diehard EQers seem to refuse to accept that not only was there more to early MMOs than just EQ, it was a pretty diverse set of experiences.
 
Look, you like EQ and that's just fine. But when someone says they didn't care for it, it's a little arrogant - if not completely rude and uncalled for - to tell them that they didn't like EQ because they can't maintain focus or, worse, that if they didn't like grinding in EQ then it must be because they have a psychological disorder.

Actually, I'm willing to bet I've played more MMO's than most people on this website. Is that a boast or is it fact? How many games I've played isn't what the discussion is about though. It's about current MMO's lack of difficulty. It's about content locusts and FPS instant gratification kids getting their way for the past 10 years. Despite what most would expect or believe, there are in fact a lot of old time MMO veterans who miss games like vanilla EQ, SWG, AC and DAoC. Most of which are in MY opinion leagues ahead of some of the current MMO's on the market. In fact, in the past 10 years, LOTRO, ArcheAge and ESO are about the only MMO's I'd consider an actual improvement to the genre since then. Except ArcheAge is being managed by a bunch of nitwits so that diamond fell through the cracks. LOTRO was one of the first subscription based games to take on the hybrid B2P model and did so with amazing success.

As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like, but I'm pretty sure this website has dictated it as the #1 MMO of the past year. Is it exactly what most of us old time vets are looking for? Not 100% but definitely better than most games.

So no, this discussion has nothing to do with game features. It has to do with game difficulty. So your bullet point breakdown of you and your guilds successes was rather nice and all but completely missed the point.

Why you went on that ePeen tirade about the amount of MMOs you've played is beyond me, but good for you. o7 

After that, you change the goal posts to some present day vs old school MMO thing that had nothing to do with the discussion which was that HFS, Malabooga and I had a different gaming experience back then.

"As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like..." <--- I'm not sure what stance you think I took on ESO or why you feel so compelled to throw around insults, but last I checked, ESO wasn't around back then so that comment is an odd one no matter how you look at it. It's just a bit humorous that you say we can't focus and that we have ADD, but three posts into a discussion and you're miles off topic on three different tangents in one single reply.  :)

 

To get back on track...

  • You said people didn't like the grind because they either couldn't focus or they had mental problems.
  • We pointed out that we didn't like to grind mobs because we were doing other things in game that we found more fun, not for the reasons you mentioned. The list was to give you some examples.

Now, it would be great to get a response from you on that topic. However, if you're going to get insulted over perceived slights to your gaming prowess or lash out at us then please don't waste our time and refrain from replying.

 

 

I brought up my gaming history because of the comment you made in your prior post that I only played linear level grinds. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.

How does one make any relevant statement about games of the past without comparing them to games of the present? I was trying to point out that some present day games that released recently were bringing back at least some of the old school feel. ArcheAge with it's ridiculous amount of features compared to SWG and ESO with it's Cyrodiil equivalent to that of DAoC's Frontiers. So while some aspects of classic games are making their way back. It's still nothing close to what it was, which makes no sense to me. How did we lose complexity and challenge in exchange for fast paced leveling and instant gratification. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.

My tinfoil hat comment was directed at the majority of people still complaining about a game they probably haven't even touched since launch. While a majority of the stuff they complained about was legitimate, there are those who complained about the veteran level grind. Which to me is a prime example of the impatient syndrome present with todays FPS instant gratification kids. So, in my opinion, ESO is the #1 MMO on the market, much like this website has shown. Probably due to deep lore, the grind, food and drink that matters and Cyrodiil. All things that made games of old like EQ and DAoC popular. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.

Grind isn't a huge deal to me. I've played MMO's since 1996. I have patience and I enjoy the admiration of my achievements. Something you don't see in todays MMO's. This doesn't mean a game can only have grind and that's it. Just like I posted about ArcheAge having a crap ton of features such as farming, building neighborhoods and badass naval simulation. Reminded me of what SWG brought to the table years ago. Now we have games like The Repopulation and Crowfall bringing back the varied quality of resources too. EQ wasn't just about grind. It was about everything from actual night time, meditating to recover mana, racial language barriers, death that actual meant something and socializing. So, that explains that apparent off topic remark.

If you have any other issues with my posts, please feel free to let me know.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by sketocafe
It'd be a tough sell. Most people are hooked on the convenience features we have in most games and never give any thought to what they're giving up in return for the convenience.

Those were added to games as a convenience features because the overwhelming majority of players wanted it. Some early games that didn't have maps ended up with community created maps dotted with points of interest and information. No one unwittingly gave up anything. Players sought out well crafted maps because they didn't like the mapless alternative.

Ha, no. I never heard anyone say they wish they had maps.

Third party maps are fine, because they're static. It's different from a GPS map entirely.

Like many things, devs include maps because WoW included maps, and that's necessary for hand holding quest based leveling.

What you heard is immaterial, when site traffic, game metrics, exit surveys and player feedback say otherwise. DAOC Catacombs, The Brasse's EQ2/LOTRO site and many others saw tons of traffic to their map/atlas pages during the early days of those MMOs. zExplorer was extremely popular with UO and AC players.  Personally, I liked that the Old Forest had no map, but even some of the biggest fans of LoTR were requesting a map for it in LOTRO.

Players have wanted maps for as long as there were MMOs, and they have always turned to third party sources when the games didn't provide them.

The maps on 3rd party websites is basically the equivalent of a player making their own map. I'm pretty sure we are talking about in-game maps with glowing trails and waypoints telling you exactly where to go. The whole ease of these "crutch" mechanics makes me wonder just how lazy and ungrateful people have become. Isn't the point of an MMORPG to go on an adventure? Current MMO's would be the same as Gandalf holding Bilbo and Frodo's hands through the entire fellowship journey or Jedi's being unkillable. There would be no point in watching the movie, just like there is currently no point in playing most MMO's cause a monkey can play it while making a sandwich and watching curious george on TV.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Rhoklaw
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience. 

Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.

Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"

Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.

Me not wantng to bang my head against the wall every day for few hours doesnt make me ADD, unable to keep focus.

The "real" MMO failed when much more enjoyable alternative appeared and everyone jumped ship from "real" MMO.

Yeah, farming same pixies for 6 weeks few hours a day. Those were the days. not

Thank you, Malabooga. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that was a strange leap of logic.

Rhoklaw,  your post seems to indicate you really haven't played anything outside of linear level grinds, so I'll write off your comment to just a lack of experience. While EQers were stalwartly braving the monotony of grinding to prove their manhood in a 'true' MMO. The rest of us were doing all sorts of 'instant gratification' things because of our 'younger generation ADD' (oh, those darn instant gratification kids spoiling MMOs back then!):

  • - building and maintaining player-run venues like
    • taverns
    • gambling halls
    • player cities
    • RP environments
    • fight arenas
    • mage towers and other SIG venues
  • - roleplaying, fighting and socializing in the above player-run venues
  • - organizing monthly meetings of the Monarchs (guild leaders) of our servers to address community issues and concerns
  • - organizing/joining content teams (official or player-run) to create quests, story arcs and plot characters based on official lore
  • - engaging in activities that require little or even zero combat such as being a dedicated crafter, fisherman, treasure hunter, baker, veterinarian, or even a rogue that does rogue things other than just backstab and hide.
So, yes, we had a different experience. For some reason the diehard EQers seem to refuse to accept that not only was there more to early MMOs than just EQ, it was a pretty diverse set of experiences.
 
Look, you like EQ and that's just fine. But when someone says they didn't care for it, it's a little arrogant - if not completely rude and uncalled for - to tell them that they didn't like EQ because they can't maintain focus or, worse, that if they didn't like grinding in EQ then it must be because they have a psychological disorder.

Actually, I'm willing to bet I've played more MMO's than most people on this website. Is that a boast or is it fact? How many games I've played isn't what the discussion is about though. It's about current MMO's lack of difficulty. It's about content locusts and FPS instant gratification kids getting their way for the past 10 years. Despite what most would expect or believe, there are in fact a lot of old time MMO veterans who miss games like vanilla EQ, SWG, AC and DAoC. Most of which are in MY opinion leagues ahead of some of the current MMO's on the market. In fact, in the past 10 years, LOTRO, ArcheAge and ESO are about the only MMO's I'd consider an actual improvement to the genre since then. Except ArcheAge is being managed by a bunch of nitwits so that diamond fell through the cracks. LOTRO was one of the first subscription based games to take on the hybrid B2P model and did so with amazing success.

As for ESO, you can wear your tinfoil hat if you like, but I'm pretty sure this website has dictated it as the #1 MMO of the past year. Is it exactly what most of us old time vets are looking for? Not 100% but definitely better than most games.

So no, this discussion has nothing to do with game features. It has to do with game difficulty. So your bullet point breakdown of you and your guilds successes was rather nice and all but completely missed the point.

ESO is nothing like it was at launch. So anyone that hasn't played it since the start of the new year is out of date and useless for information. As for those of you who said, ya, I came back and played for an hour and didn't like it. Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the new ESO. I play ESO for the PvP in Cyrodiil much like I played DAoC for the Frontiers. Neither game was notorious for the PvE content and didn't have to be. Cyrodiil and the Frontiers are more than enough to keep people entertained for hours and hours. There are still plenty of dungeons, veteran dungeons, trials and pledges for those who love to grind for gear. I prefer to electrocute enemies in the fields of battle, making sure my Dominion remains in control of the keeps. I'm not sure what the addition of the Capital will bring to Cyrodiil, but if it gives access to a hidden dungeon for the current crowned faction, than that would rekindle the days of Darkness Falls and oh, those were the days.
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Rhoklaw
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience. 

Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.

Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"

Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.

Me not wantng to bang my head against the wall every day for few hours doesnt make me ADD, unable to keep focus.

The "real" MMO failed when much more enjoyable alternative appeared and everyone jumped ship from "real" MMO.

Yeah, farming same pixies for 6 weeks few hours a day. Those were the days. not

Actually, the grind in EQ was more focused on rare drops than leveling. You literally earned your gear for a change, instead of it being handed to you every level by picking berries for a lazy farmer. No worries, I understand the need for MMO's that have zero difficulty in terms of gear and leveling. There are all kinds of gamers out there, but there is a lack of subscription based long term MMO's at the moment. If it's a niche society, so be it. It would be nice to get at least one MMO similar to vanilla EQ to actually launch.

I think what the OP is getting at is in order for an MMO to be difficult and stay that way is for the game itself to remove certain "crutch" features. Such as maps, instant travel, dungeon finder, looking for group, lack of night cycles / night vision, lack of racial language barriers and so on. Allowing some or all the players the choice to use such "crutch" mechanics completely avoids the point of not having those things period. It's called difficulty and something most new MMO players have no clue about.

Don't we have enough hand holding MMO's already? Isn't it about time we bring challenge back to the MMO genre instead of this pudding eating mental starvation we have now? Sure, twitch combat and bunny jumping fanatics from FPS got their way with MMO's. Now it's time to bring back those of us who like to flex our brain and not just our hand eye coordination.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
No I don't remember any of that. I had a different experience. 

Same here, as I played almost every MMO except EQ. What the OP describes is the reason I only spent a week in EQ. Repetitive grind... bleh.

Probably why the OP also made the comment about today's younger generations being ADD, thus needing the instant gratification of current MMO's. You lose interest because you can't maintain focus. There was nothing wrong with grinding in vanilla EQ. In fact, there was nothing wrong with vanilla EQ period. When you earned a level in EQ, it was satisfying every "DING!"

Now, getting to max level barely even phases people. Makes me wonder why developers scratch their heads trying to figure out why they can't make money. Well, maybe cause you create easy content that can be blitzed through in a week. Subscription based MMO's are failing now because you've changed the games. What took months or years back in the day, can now be done in a week or less. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out and if you don't stop feeding the content locust's agenda, you'll never get anywhere near profitable with an MMO.

I've wondered the same thing for many years and came to the realization that it's now impossible to have such a game simply because of how comfortable and easy it is to use the internet. When I first started playing MMO's like Meridian 59 and EQ, there wasn't massive amounts of quest guides, leveling guides, maps and number crunching theorists. For several years, there were no mounts in EQ. You literally walked everywhere unless you were a Druid or a Wizard. EQ basically forced you to explore and even worse, it made other races struggle to meet up to group, so unless your friend made a character with a race that lived close by, you might not see each other before level 20.

Yes, it sucked and yes I miss it dearly. I miss the suck. I'm tired of handholding instant gratification crap. However, as I've stated. Even with a difficult MMO, you'll still have some web nerd broadcasting the breakdown of every known game mechanic for everyone to use to remove the difficulty.

That's why I'm looking forward to Crowfall. As it is going to use procedurally generated campaign maps that when after completed, will never return. This gives players some strategic PvP replay value. You can master your character, but you won't be able to master the campaign as it's different the next time around. I think it will be quite refreshing gameplay that I haven't felt in yeeaarrrrssss.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying ESO a lot, but I don't see it lasting forever as even ESO has limitations due to being like every other typical MMO on the market.

Crowfall is where it's at.

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