Hmmm....guess my previous post was too long, what with all the quoting and all, since it cut off the last of it. Oh well, not going to repost that part...lol. Suffice to say that with Cata, WoW has become a steaming pile of canine feces that I just happen to be stuck with until I see how Rift is going to do : )

 Well, sorry about the wall of text in response, but having played the MMO that was the answer to all these issues, I have to put my two cents in.

I'm not sure but I think he means more like "it hasnt changed as in it's still the same we had in vanilla", that is instanced raiding. After 3 expansions it's still the same instanced raiding with new textures, some mechanics and gear treadmill. It would be cool to have MORE ways to play end game. Is instanced raiding the ONLY endgame possible in the whole mmorpg business?

I guess I can't really speak to the whole idea of innovating within MMORPGs.  I play video games (especially fantasy games) to kill things in caves/dungeons.  I've always enjoyed it, and so the whole idea that there isn't another avenue (besides pvp arena/rated BG) never really crossed my mind.

The current raid content is by far some of the best tuned content I've experienced.  Killing Nefarian really made my entire raid group have to step up and play well.  It was awesome finally killing him and I wasn't thinking "Man, I wish that we had some other thing to do". 

No offense, but players like you would probably be every bit as happy playing a console game. Keep repeating the same content over and over until you know exactly what to do at every second of every encounter and then can execute it perfectly. Somehow this gets equated to "skill." Unfortunately, it's not, it's learning something by rote and then perfecting it, like good penmanship. If the term "skill" can be applied to gaming in any context, it would be in regards to being able to react to an unexpected situation, assess what the challenges are and quickly devise a successful strategy to overcome it.

THIS is what's lacking in WoW....totally. Blizzard designs their encounters to be beaten a specific way using strategies the devs have devised and the players have merely discovered. The key making it any fun at all is to have things more random and allow the players to be creative in overcoming the situation, rather than just following Blizzard's script.
 

 

Also how can the article say "The actual world of Azeroth remains one of WoW’s strongest assets" when it has only ONE purpose. To be a leveling vessel. After you are done leveling the world is only a lobby where you wait to get into instanced-whatever. I wouldnt even call it mmorpg when you could just after max level have lobby where you log in and wait to get to PvE/PvP instance. You NEED endgame meaning for the world too, not just a leveling place that is useless after max level. World PvP objectives and rewards in the actual world and PvE objectives besides leveling too. A lot of it instead of this Cataclysm model where it is COMPLETELY absent.

Again, I can't really speak to this issue. I have played games with non-instanced content that occured in the outside world and I had very bad experiences with it.  For every person who wants to have valuable time in the game world, there are 150 people who just want to tag the enemies for their loot.  I just can't imagine this being inserted now.

As far as the game world being a lobby, I really think that's changed a bit since cata.  Dalaran was, for all intensive purposes, a waiting room with a badly abused chat feature.  This was changed (somewhat) during cata.  Now, the opposing factions cannot interact in a max level area with no threat of pvp breaking out.   I really think that's a step in the right direction.

Often I will leave Orgrimmar and go work on other things.  The whol Tol Barad area is very nicely done (besides one awful escort quest).  It really is a throw back to the isle of quel'danas, a lot of quests in a small area that give good rewards and aren't instanced.

So at level 85, what's fun is doing the same dailies over and over, while you wait to do the same raid/instance, over and over, to get gear that will be obsolete the day the next expansion comes out, however many years that may be? Three responses to this : A) see above; B) if PvP were to break out a little more often, that would make things a lot more interesting...unfortunately, most people just sit around and whine about the nasty hordies killing the auctioneers and; C) don't you get any sense of futility from all that?

It's a mmorpg where you dont need to move an inch in the open world after you hit max level. I would understand that if there were world-content in this game too, equal amount (you know, it's open world mmo and all) but no, instead instances are the ONLY content. Even the "openworld" PvP zones (WG and Tol Barad) are instanced where you que+teleport. That's just stupid, call that an open world + mmorpg.

 You are correct that you do not have to leave the main city once you've hit max level, but it isn't advised.  There are plenty of things to do outside of sitting around org waiting for a heroic/raid.  If you've hit max level and can't figure out something fun to do while you wait in a queue, that isn't totally Blizzard's fault.

Disagree. Again, see above. After a while, what is there to do that's fun and fresh and new?

I'm so glad there's vast amount of mmo titles coming without this aproach only, to a mmorpg gaming. If you want 100% instance ran game leave the openworld out of it as a bait and just admit it's a lobby->action->lobby multiplayer with a guild chat.

 This is where you lose me.  I really don't think the new crop of MMORPGs are going to give you the experience you seem to be looking for.  What most people get out of the new games that launch is the "new factor" followed by two months of play time and then the same problem "not enough content for me".  The reason I enjoy WoW is because it isn't a lack of content, but more the difficulty of the current content.

Nothing I really have to say to this that I haven't addressed above. Mainly because the game that answered all these issues is an older game, not a new one. Sadly.

Just stating what it is in essence, and what direction Cata brought it even more. Heck maybe they even add the lobby option for those who dont like to idle in cities while waiting for instance to pop :) Login screen with guild chat and instance/raid finder, a winner idea? :D

What you are describing here is Guild Wars, not World of Warcraft.  The problem you seem to keep going back to is a purely player choice problem.  You are sitting in a city when there is a world around you that you can explore and kill things in.  Heck, there is even a new tradeskill that gives you something to fly around and do while the queue is ticking. 

 Ummm....flying around Azeroth, time sinking your day away for 2 minutes of activity when you get to your destination is somehow fun? I don't even have a level 85 yet, mainly by choice (sort of my way of protesting how much of a failure Cata turned out to be) and I've seen every bit of the world content except some of Uldum, which I haven't bothered with because I lost interest. I already have my Explorer title, why bother? And even if I took the 10 minutes to fly over that little bit, what do I explore then?

 

Simply put, WoW is for two classes of gamer. Console gamers who like cooperative play and the simple-minded who can't really handle anything that requires them to put any actual thought into it. The game that had it all, until they made a bad expansion decision and then tried make their game more WoW-like, was Dark Age of Camelot. It had something for everyone...in fact, their big mistake was to try to give the players more raid-based content. That would have been fine, and was for the 16 hour-a-day hardcore players, except for the fact that the rewards for raiding so impacted their end-game, realm-vs-realm, that the casual player who didn't have 6-8 hours a day to commit to gaming was left totally out of the picture. As a result, they left in droves and in the long run, that killed the game.

 

If they'd designed it so that the Trials of Atlantis rewards were only slightly more powerful than what non-raiders could acquire, giving them an edge as opposed to an overwhelming advantage, DAoC would still be a popular and thriving game. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case, and so we wind up stuck with the steaming pile of canine feces WoW has become. At least, until we see how Rift is going to do : ).

 

Originally posted by Ozmodan

It is still the same rigid class/level system introduced by EQ and there is absolutely nothing new that has not been done before in the genre.   Just get tired of silly developers trying to out better Wow with the same exact design.  When will they learn.

 

Nowhere, it seems, can one go without running into the "I want to have sex with a Blizzard dev, regardless of gender, because they're just that awesome" crowd. I've been playing WoW waiting for something decent to come along, but the fact of the matter is WoW has turned from a decent, never was it great, but at least it was decent, game into a stinking pile of dog feces. It really doesn't matter much to me if Rift isn't the perfect MMO....that one's already been done and is never going to be topped anyway. I'll happily walk away from WoW now though and give Trion my money instead. Blizzard's gone from being one of the better game design companies to a bunch of egotistical, money-grubbing asshats who care little for their playerbase or how good a game they make, they just want worship of their amazing design skills, regardless of how stupid or lazy their decisions may be.

As far as people claiming it's a bad game because it's not the most original....guess what? All MMOs steal from each other. That's been the case since WoW came out and started steraling ideas from everyone else. It's the way the industry works. Deal with it.

Personally, I hope Rift becomes the "next big thing" and rapes Blizzard for about 75% of their playerbase. Maybe then Blizzard will remember it's about the players and not stroking their own overblown egos.

I anxiously awaited the publishing of Shadowbane and bought it soon after it came out. I played for about 2 days and cancelled my subscription (when it was still pay-to-play.) I've recently started playing again, and it's better now and probably one of the better free games going, but it still has its faults.

On the positive side :

- Leveling is pretty easy, experience comes fast and cash flow isn't much of a problem if you don't forget to bank your earnings before going out.

- The overall guild/city/guild-warfare system is by far the most imaginative and in-depth system going, which is why I had so strongly anticipated the game in the first place. There's definitely all the tools to really bring a guild together in attempting to accomplish something.

- The class diversity and ability to sub-class makes this also one of the more interesting systems going. A lot of choices for character development.

- Gameplay is engaging once you get the hang of it, although the learning curve is very steep.

- It's free.

On the negative side :

- A total gankfest. I laugh everytime I hear people talk about "skill" in a game like this. How much skill does it take to kill a character less than half your level that you can kill in 2 or 3 shots? Not saying that I've never ganked anyone in a game, I've done my share, but really, all it makes you is the bully down the street. If it were a case of defending your guild's hunting areas that would be one thing and I'd understand and respect it. But so far I have yet to be ganked by anyone who's even so much as in the nation of the guild that supposedly controls the area I'm hunting in. I guess it gives those that desperately need it some shred of self-confidence, but I personally find it rather pointless. I'd much rather win a fight against someone who could actually defeat me. Still, it's a relatively unrestricted PvP game, and that comes with the territory. A minor complaint rather than a major issue.

- Horrible, horrible graphics. If, like a poster above said, you actually think this game looks good, you haven't played many MMORPGs. They have improved it somewhat since the debut of the game, back then the facial features (only hair, beards and skin tone or color, not even that for some races) that could be customized looked like they were drawn on with a magic marker, but it still leaves much to be desired. I've played a number of other free games that were far better looking. I could overlook that however, if there weren't so many other issues.

- Lag. My system isn't top-of-the-line, it's a couple of years old, but I'm not talking about system performance, I'm talking about internet latency. I will occasionally experience some graphics lag and every once in a great while latency issues in other games I play (that are far more taxing graphically,) but this is the only game where I will frequently (at least once or twice an hour) have periods where I can take no actions beyond moving, can't talk to NPCs, can't fight back if something or someone attacks me, etc. etc. And I don't mean 3-4 seconds, I mean 2-3 minutes sometimes. If this were an issue on my end, I'd experience it in other games too, but I don't.....not even in Asian-based games.

- Great UI concept, terrible execution. It's very versatile, gives you a lot of options and a lot of info that can be easily accessed. Unfortunately, while the windows can be moved around, they snap to certain locations and only resize to certain sizes. It's probably best that you don't move the windows from the way they're set up intially, because this is the most unobstructed view you're ever going to get. Maybe there are user-designed UIs out there that adress this issue, but I've yet to find any.

- Point-and-click movement works great in 2D isometric games, but sorely lacks for versatility in 3D games. If you haven't spent a lot of time playing a game that utilizes keyboard controls as at least an option for movement, you don't know what you're missing. I've gotten used to the system, but that doesn't mean I don't think it sucks :).

- Terrible camera controls. I've tried using the control that freezes the camera view, but no matter where I set it, it'll inevitably wander off to its own angle sooner or later, most often sooner.

- (EDIT : Forgot to add this) Lack of community. Of the very few fan-driven info sites I've been able to find, I've found TWO that still work, and their info is either limited to the level 40+ game or simply duplicates what's on the official site. Fan sites with game info are one of the critical resources anyone new to a game needs, especially those with the previously-mentioned steep learning curves such as this one. Also when the players in the game talk to you like you're some kind of moron in a channel labeled "Info" if you ask the simplest question that can't be found anywhere in the game's pathetic Help system. So actually count this as two negatives, as I'm not going to list the lack of documentation (outside of the well-done yet not very informative official website....which has good info on classes, races, the guild system and the game's backstory, another reason why this should have been a great game instead of just a decent one.)

Assessment : Overall, as a free game, this is a good one. But if Shadowbane had lived up to its pre-release promise, noone would be playing it for free. Contrary to what the SB fans here will tell you, this is NOT the best PvP system out there, although it could have been. That honor still goes to Dark Age of Camelot, which sadly is probably on its way to either becoming a free game or being shut down entirely. Mythic made enough mistakes on their own, but since being bought out by EA....well, in the MMORPG field, EA ruins every game they get their huge, greedy paws on, and DAoC has been no exception. Nonetheless, the PvP in DAoC is far and away the best in the industry.

Shadowbane could have, should have, would have, been the best overall PvP game around, IF Wolfpack hadn't screwed the pooch so badly on the interface and controls, and tried to at least put it on par with the graphical level of the games that were its contemporaries. Unfortunately they failed to do any of those things, so we're left with a decent game that's free to play at least :)