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All Posts by Daffid011

All Posts by Daffid011

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Originally posted by Allein
I'm just trying to figure out what you are trying to get out of this or where you are trying to take the conversation moving forward. I find posters more interesting than the game currently as there clearly isn't one to talk about.Company bad, history poor, EQN not doing great. And then?



This forum is to discuss MMOs. You don't need to understand why anyone posts here. lets please talk about games ok?.

The companies history and performance continues to be brought up because people keep asking questions or making claims that invite that information to be discussed.


Originally posted by Allein
There was over a year of discussions about the game's concept, design, vision, hyped features etc and you seem to have came in relatively recently to simply point out the very obvious history of the company and that thinks aren't sunshine and rainbows. Anyone still reading this forum should know these things and if not, you and a some others have made it very clear.


Just doesn't seem to have an end goal or point. Is the goal to drive everyone away so there are no new posts? If the few positive folks leave will the negative folks just pat each other on the back?


Expecting people to ignore the current situation and instead only talk about old concepts and theories seems like requesting everyone behave like a blind fan.  Sorry if most of the people who were once optimistic no longer feel that way.  Those people felt like that well before I came back here. 

As for not being on the forums a year or two ago, I'm sorry I wasn't here?  I'm not sure what you expect.


Originally posted by Allein
You don't suggest things they could do to improve, discuss anything you've seen that you actually like or dislike about the concept itself, or have anything to say beyond the simplification I stated above.



I don't think Daybreak reads these forums, so why make suggestions here?

Perhaps you are not seeing talk about gameplay, because most people feel that Daybreak isn't giving information about the game anymore?

People are making threads about what is currently relevant.


Originally posted by Allein
I'm not looking for a fansite or blind fanboys, just move the conversation forward or in a different direction would be great. Where do we go from here after knowing what we do? Should I just accept that this is a SOE/Daybreak complaint and trash talk forum and move on? EQN itself isn't worth talking about I'm sure someone with an opinion on everything can let me know what I should do.



If you want to talk about the gameplay, why not start some threads about it. There is nothing stopping you from moving the conversation forward.

It seems silly to expect to find discussion about gameplay or concept art in threads about the game possibly never being released or the companies unwillingness to communicate with their fans.

Pick a topic you want to discuss and make a thread. Easy peasy.


Again, can we please stop trying to shift discussion about games to a discussion of posters?

Originally posted by Allein

Please tell me what your point is in as few words as possible. The topic being EQN being Vaporware that is.

Then if you would be so kind, what your point is spreading your negative views on this forum about the company, it's history, past development problems and never speaking about the actual "game" itself.

All I seem to see is SOE/Daybreak suck, they've failed in the past so likely to do the same with EQN. The end.

Is that the basic idea you are trying to get across? Do you have some other point, agenda, view that I'm missing?

If we all accept what is already common knowledge, will you move on to another topic?

Basically all of this is coming down to "my lack of proof is better than your lack of proof." It is very silly.

I've said it several times.  I don't think EQN is vaporware.  I do think it is closer to being cancelled than it is to being released in a decent condition.  As for speaking about the game, where are those threads at?  Yeah, back to the whole "Daybreak please communicate with us". Hard for players to talk about something when the developer wont even talk about it and keeps jerking players around. 

Sorry you don't like the negative information being shared here, but you can't expect everyone else to ignore everything just so you don't have to see it.  It sounds like you want a fansite where people only discuss happy ideas.  Is there a fansite? 

As for proof.  There is plenty of credible information and supporting history in this thread about the issues going on and why almost everyone has a negative outlook on the game.  The counter points seem to be that if against all odds the game is somehow good it will be good and look at the new concept art the developers released. 




Originally posted by Allein

I'm a gamer and hope games do well, especially when they potentially could provide an experience not found anywhere else and even more so could move the genre in a different direction by using relatively untapped tech and features.

Not everyone that believes this game will fail wants it to fail. They really are two different views that some keep trying to lump together. 

Likewise, the possibility that a game might move the genre forward is awesome.  Even the grumpiest of grumps would love that even if they don't admit it. 

Though that doesn't mean everything should be viewed through rose colored glasses as the opposite is not only true, but there is many great examples of projects so poorly managed and rushed to market it has set the genre back and chased away developers from trying anything new.

Star wars galaxies?


Star Wars The Old Republic?

Sims online


That is just a few of the many. 



Originally posted by CrazKanuk

In all fairness, both of you are talking out your asses. You know as much about the current state of the product as he does, I'm sure. Regardless of what the final "product" is, the one thing that is certain is that there is enough of a game that a VC firm invested, possibly, hundreds of millions of dollars to acquire it. As a general rule of thumb, VC firms don't buy losers, they perform extensive (actually brutally painful) due diligence, and CN is absolutely no noob when it comes to technology, so I highly doubt that the wool was pulled over their eyes. They have a whole division dedicated to tech firms and they could have (probably did) brought in a laundry list of tech geeks who could rip apart the code and tell CN the exact state of the game and a ballpark number on what it'll cost to finish it. I'm not saying bad investments don't happen, but not generally on massive investments like SOE would have been. 

We are all speculating and sharing theories.   Some have information to support them, others don't.


Though I do disagree with your assessment of the VC firms.  They do their homework, but by their very nature they invest in risks.  VC investments don't always pay out. 

I'm not sure what would possibly make anyone think SOE had a value of 100 million dollars, let alone double or triple that.  Just looking at the assets speaks to the contrary.  That SOE was dumped to eliminate a financial drain to Sony and avoid another public downsizing. 

The assumption being made is that Columbus Nova bought SOE and that EQN is somehow a great investment with huge potential.  Not huge enough for Sony to keep it, but somehow worth huge sums of money to Columbus Nova... even though the game is still just concepts and research at this point?

The problem is everything speaks to the contrary of that theory.  That CN bought the division, fired staff, cut contracts and stripped it down to a point where it maybe makes enough to support itself and even generate a little money.  Possibly they push out some existing titles to other platforms like Xbox, PS4, mobile and maybe they make a real effort at EQN.  Then again, maybe they don't.  There is nothing that says EQN was the gem that CN purchased.  why do you think no other gaming company bought SOE?


Just for perspective, the guys at Storybricks were able to secure funding to purchase SOE.  Do you think banks were willing to give those guys hundreds of millions to buy SOE?   Keep in mind their service was cut from EQN and the company went belly up. 


What I do know is that EQN doesn't exist beyond what has been developed for Landmark. 



I guess that is one way to look at the situation.

Another would be that when someone resorts to hypothetical examples about topics that are completely unrelated to MMOs and then throwing around personal insults, that person really doesn't have much of a point about the actual topic.



However, you bring up the issue of actually playing the game and it makes me wonder.  How much EQN have you played to make such claims about all those other things that you think make it such a different game that anyone can see the difference?


I've seen what the developers say they want to do.  Where they say these things are still just concepts and they are now starting to work on them.  Where they say they are still in the research phase.  They say they want to make EQN a different game than Landmark, so I'm curious where you are getting these facts from about the game existing currently.





Originally posted by Nanfoodle

No... by that stand the guy building a new car in a garage would be confused as the garage and the car would be the same entity and they are not. EQN and Landmark are very different games. EQN is still being built but Landmark is just a tool thats really fun to play with if you like to build (the garage), EQN is that car. 

Anyone can fabricate an analogy to suit their views, but that does not mean they accurately represent the topic being discussed.  It is pointless to talk about auto repair shops instead of the actual topic, unless you are trying to dismiss or obfuscate the specific issues that are distinct to the issue at hand.

EQN/Landmark are one development process.  The "landmark" phase is over and now the team is working to take what they have and make that into EQN.  The EQN that the team talks about are still just concepts right now. 

Though I think you are right and there is a lot of confusion going on behind the scenes. 



Originally posted by Nanfoodle 

Talking out the side of your mouth again. You cant take two stands, EQN and Landmark are the same game and EQN doesn't exist. Sometimes I think you dont read your own posts, or forget them 15 min later.  

I will try to be more clear so you can understand what I am trying to convey, but please stop being so nasty.  it doesn't make you right and only derails decent discussion.


EQN is currently being developed from what exists in Landmark.  They are one project, not two as you seem to think.  Does that clear up your misunderstanding?

Originally posted by craftseeker

I think you are re-writing history here.  The launch of Landmark was a combination of two things:

  1. Recognition that the new tools were interesting to use and that the playerbase could be coopted into producing EQN assets for little or no cost.
  2. Smedley's comment that we would have a 'playable' version of the game (EQN) in 2013. What we got was Everquest:Landmark (now just Landmark)
EQN development surrounds Landmark development, it pre-dates it, it continued all through Landmark's early stages and continues today.  As to your 'two legs' theory no, it looks much more like a traditional forked project, Landmark has achieved a separate identity, and will continue.  EQN (if it is released) is a separate project.  Until we actually see EQN it will be hard to state which features in Landmark are common to both projects and which are entirely separate. But the building tools will not be in EQN and the combat in Landmark may not resemble what we see in EQN at all. Heck the Avatars in Landmark, although pre-dating the split, may not be what we see in EQN they could be redone (if the Emote tech is dropped).
The reasons for the split are many, but one over-riding consideration is that Landmark will always be a PC exclusive and that EQN will be made to run on consoles and perhaps tablets as well as PCs.

First I think you overlook the desperate situation SOE was in for revenue.  No one wants to release games in the condition H1Z1 or Landmark were in.  That was the determine factor above anything else. Desperate times, desperate measures

To be clear, I'm not saying that everything in Landmark will be in EQN. I'm saying there is no other fork somewhere that has been consecutively developed as a separate game during the same time as Landmark.  Landmark is where the team is starting with EQN.

Landmark will continue to exist as a public test bed for EQN concepts, but as a game it is effectively dead.  Anyone who has played Vanguard, Matrix, Free Realms, SWG, etch knows exactly what that past producers letter meant for Landmark.


However, for those that want to hang on to the notion that Landmark is somehow a forked game, that just means this team has failed for the third consecutive time trying to make a marketable product/game.  Beta or not, it is clear the game does not have anything to attract or retain more than a hundred or so people.  . 

Does anyone really think this company would ever think a development team that was so off course making one game and during a time of critical failure of the division would have time/resources to fork their project and create two games at the same time. 



Originally posted by Nanfoodle

You do get the difference between a building game and a mmoRPG, right? 2/3 of the content in Landmark is about building that is not even a part of EQN. You do get Landmark is SciFi/Fantasy and EQN is pure fantasy? Or do I need to break that down for you? Have you even played Landmark because the more you talk about it the more naive you sound on the subject.

Everything you talk about in EQN is still just a concept, so how you speak so matter of factly existing in EQN is a mystery.

The point you keep missing is that Landmark and EQN are not currently 2 different games.  EQN doesn't exist and it is being built by working on what exists in Landmark.   How much is removed or added is moot. 


Landmark was just a phase of building EQN, one that fizzled out pretty hard.

Originally posted by craftseeker

While saying it failed twice is a bit strong we were told at the 2013 SOE live that two previous versions of the 'next Everquest' had been abandoned and that they had started again with what they were calling 'Everquest Next'.  It also looks like much of the 2013 version has hit the bit bucket and they are now continuing to work on EQN 3.5.

I also agree that Landmark is not EQN, it contains a lot of the code of EQN as of its launch date plus a lot more building tools, but it is a definite fork of the project which is now two games with different models.  Commonality yes, testing of some EQN ideas yes, identical no.

I agree that the team does seem to be working on what looks like EQN 3.5. 


Look at it this way.  The team has been focused on making what they call Landmark for the last few years.  Development for Landmark is ending.  Development for EQN is starting.  That EQN development is building systems in the landmark code for what will eventually become EQN. 

If Landmark ends as EQN starts and EQN is just evolving the Landmark code, are they really 2 different games or is Landmark just the first leg of EQN development?


Originally posted by Nanfoodle

They dont have the same classes and races. One is a building game the other is an mmoRPG. If you dont get how different the two games are you have read nothing about them or you are ignoring the facts to make an argument. 

P.S. you keep saying EQN failed twice but you got nothing to prove that, till you do stop spewing lies. lol Show me one fact on the net to back that up and I will buy into it. Changing your mind is not failing. 

RED: Reread my post you quoted, there is no paying for Landmark. Its a F2P game, you want your money back, you can get it at any time. They set a price tag to make sure only people who really wanted to build or test EQN systems stayed. Thats what they got right now, the community is great. Why would you not have to spend money on EQN? Its a different game with its own content. =-P 

Again, you are talking about what the developers want to do in the future as if it is something that has already happened. The things you are pointing to that will make these "different" games do not exist yet and honestly those things are just going to be added to the Landmark code and rebranded as EQN.  They could just as easily be added to Landmark wth some cosmetic changes and it would be EQN.  It is all the same code at this point.

Why do you think Landmark development is ending while EQN development is now starting? 

Landmark is pretty much just phase1 of EQN.  Landmark is being abandoned and all the work is being rebranded as EQN.  Smoke and mirrors, nothing more. 


P.S. FACT: The teams was twice tasked with building an EQN game and twice those efforts were thrown out.  They did not succeed in achieving their goal.  That is a fact, not an insult.   How else would you refer to a team that spends nearly 5 years and produced nothing?


RED: The fact that you have to spend money to get the game should be enough to end any thought of claiming the game is free to play.  Loss for words at the spin.    


Originally posted by Nanfoodle 

So a kickstarter for EQN but it gives you another game (Landmark)? Do you even listen/read your own words? You sure complain allot about buying into Landmark. If you did thats your own problem. If you did and you are not happy, get a refund. DGC was very clear it was an unfinished game that wont be fully developed till EQN is released. They were very clear it was mostly about getting the tools into the hands of people who wanted to help build EQN. People who complain about the situation ether cant read or are just looking for a reason to bitch. No one is stuck with Landmark, as its a F2P game that you can get a full refund if you are done helping make EQN. How this is a problem I dont get? 

You still think there are two different games right now?   

If you want to believe that a team which twice failed to make EQN, facing deep layoffs, sale of the company or possibly closing down.... somehow thought they had time, resources and talent to instead build two completely different games, I think  you are deceiving yourself. 

All they are doing is rebranding work from landmark to eqn,  same team, same dev servers, same code base.  Some new things will be bolted onto landmark code base and be rebranded as EQN, while the existing landmark withers and dies as it no longer sees development.  EQN is still a concept at this point.   

Also, no I didn't buy landmark.  I don't believe in rewarding big developers with money for incomplete games as it will only encourage them to continue pushing out incomplete games.  Promises of future awesome content and other nonsense are meaningless, especially with such a bad history of under delivering this company has. 


The irony is that landmark players are most likely going to have to pay for the game twice if they want to pay EQN when it gets released. What a sham. 

Landmark is a sloppy kickstarter for EQN.  It isn't some other game as being presented.


also, I don't understand how paying for a game that is knowingly unfinished somehow solves the problem of being tired of buying unfinished games as you say.  All it does is remove the possibility of getting a finished game and ensure you will be playing a buggy unfinished game for year(s).

Rewarding big developers with money for releasing unfinished games just enables them to continue doing the same.  Even worse they will continue to push those borders as long as players continue to reward them.  You can see examples of that in Daybreaks games as they usher in cash shops and subscription fees to "pre-release" betas games.


These are the same poor releases from years ago, just disguised as betas and early access.     

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

No he has you. You can sell anything if people will buy it. If people are willing to buy into alpha and beta programs then its viable. Hell people sell domain names and thats as an undone product as you can get. Its a name and nothing more. At that point you cant get upset because it does not come with a web page. As long as development teams label their games as Alpha, Beta or Early Access its buyers own fault if they dont like the state of what they bought. DGC has been very fair, if you buy access to a beta program and you are not having fun testing, they refund you. Where do you get that with a finished product? 

Did they release the game for sale at a retail site, yes.

Slap the EQ label on the game, yes.

No time taken to get things right before doing that, yes.


It is pretty hard to believe a developers or fans claims when their last several released games directly contradict those claims. 



It is hard to blame developers for doing that when players have been conditioned to not only accept and pay for buggy unfinished games, but actively defend the terrible state of those games.  Worse yet is they are now convincing people to pay them to build the game as well. 

Players assuming the risk of development costs, shouldering development efforts and championing unfinished product releases just by adding a couple words like early access, pre-release or beta.  Imagine how much other games like Vanguard or Warhammer could have benefitted from such luxuries.


Originally posted by Kajidourden


Sorry, but are you new here or something?  Are you totally ignorant to what a beta is?

Nothing is released.  Not a hard concept to wrap your head around.

If you're referring to being able to pay your way into testing....welcome to the last 10 years bud.


You cannot sell beta testing on Steam. 

As I said early, why argue about terminology.  They put out an unfinished game with the EQ name slapped on it.

People feel better when a rushed unfinished game is presented as "early access!!" or "paid beta testing!!!".  It doesn't change what it is. 




When people say that EQN is vaporware, some point to Landmark as evidence of all the great work being done on EQN, because Landmark is the core base of EQN.

When Landmark is being criticized, it is a completely different game than EQN or some ambiguous pre-alpha thing that can't be used to judge EQN.





On one hand you claim the developers will not do something like slap the EQ name on an unfinished game and put it to market, because they are going to take their time and get things right.

On the other you have a clear example of the developer putting the EQ name on an unfinished game and putting it out to market before they got things right.

I see no need to argue semantics about marketing terms or continually trying to blame players.  It is what it is.  There really is no arguing against that. 

It is painfully clear that what the company says and what the actually does are often a complete contradiction. 

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Arclan


Originally posted by Burntvet
As I have mentioned before, no one here appears to have any clue as to how venture capital companies work.


EQN will not be released in 2020, no VC company would EVER pay for development that long.

EQN will not have a $100 mil price tag, for the same reason.

EQN will not be a full feature MMO, which would require several more years of development.

VC firms are worried about the return on investment this quarter or this year. All of that stuff I just mentioned are a bunch of naive hopes from people that do not understand how things work. VC firms are not in ANYTHING for the "long haul".


I suspect (although no one not on the inside can say for sure) that when the VC firm bought SOE, they gave them 1 year to get everything out the door or it would be getting canceled. That's the long and short of it, that's how VC firms operate.

As such, I think it is even money that EQN will either be canceled late this year, or a very much stripped down EQN will release  some time in first month or two of 2016 (and look something like Neverwinter).

Anything else is just not supported by what VC firms are, or how they run.


I'm actually intrigued by this. I think the MMO industry needs someone to light a fire under their butts; and make sure teams don't bite off more than they can chew. Make a smaller version of a game; and build upon its success gradually; rather than taking five years to build an enormous monstrosity or morph into vaporware.

Funny as MMOers we bitch when games get rushed and the games not polished and when a company takes their time to get it right we bitch they are going to slow lol. EQN could have just made the game years ago and put an EQ IP stamp on it and said there go play but they decided to go in the direction of an RD game and make something new and unique =-) Thats another area we bitch as MMOers. Sick of the same game being made with new skin, we call them WoW clones for some dumb reason. Again DGC is trying to make something new and what do the gamers do? We bitch. We cant even pick what side of the fence we are on. 

Wait one second... SOE did in fact slap an EQN stamp on a game, released it for sale and told players to play that.  I'm not sure how you can overlook something like that and instead blame players for not being thrilled.

As Mendel said, SOE could have easily shut up about their project until they could actually get some concepts set or maybe even have a real idea of where the project is going and when it might possibly be done.  Yet that is not what they did and the backlash they are receiving is their own fault.


The short and sweet is that when companies over promise and under deliver there will be backlash.  Seems to fit this situation exactly. 


The company can claim they have the luxury of taking their time to get things right, but clearly that time ran out at SOE and I doubt Daybreak is going to be any more generous.  The problem is they have already shown they are willing to release buggy, unfinished, boring game well before they get anything right.


Actions > words.




Has to much impact on a games design


Originally posted by Nanfoodle
For someone who says so much about EQN and Landmark you sure not reading up on what they say lol. Landmark and EQN are being made by the same team yes, but very different games. They wont even have the same classes. Landmark is still being developed but only in the direction of tools needed to make EQN. So props all EQN based, SciFi props will have to wait. Combat will be pushed forward and anything else needed for EQN. EQN is not even going to have the building side of the game Landmark has. Very different games.  


They might be very different games someday, but that may never happen and has no bearing on how things currently stand.

I mean the devs are still talking about core systems being concepts subject to drastic change and they have no idea if they will even work or even be fun. Yet you are speaking like they are inevitable truths that have already happened.


Originally posted by Nanfoodle
You have no clue what SoE was sold for. Also -60 million behind is chump change when you have 3 MMOs in development. Matter of fact its small with 1 MMO in the works. From info over the last 4-8 years. Spending 100 million just gets you in the door to make a triple A MMO. You can call it doom and gloom or SoE was worth almost nothing but you are just guessing. My guess with rumors around the web, many people were interested in buying SoE. Seems this was in the works for a long time and SoE had a say in where they went. If Sony was trying to just dump them or they got next to nothing for them. Why didnt they get sold off on one of the first few offers? Could it be they are worth more then you keep saying? In the end, this line of thought is useless, why? We will never know. 


I think you are confusing having an idea and know specifics. I think anyone can get a good idea of the sale price and it wasn't huge as some suggest.

Just look at what was purchased

- a few dying MMO's
- a pre-alpha MMO
- a 7 year project that didn't even have an alpha

- multiple rounds of 100+ layoffs with another ready to happen after purchase
- multiple studios closed
- over a dozen cancelled or closed games/projects

Even the Asian studios which have been snapping up games and developers passed.

Who was "competing" for this gem?

-a Russian investment firm
-a group of indie developers who had no clients other than SOE... and they managed to secure funding.

What other "first offers" are you referring to? Things that take a long time to sell are typically A) over priced B) not very desirable or C) both.

Come on, SOE was almost bought out by their vendor.. a startup company of maybe 10 people that didn't even have a product on the market yet. Just how much do you think a bank would give them to buy a failing MMO developer?

Oh, and again you are ignoring roughly a dozen products SOE was running that should have not only paid for developing 3 MMO's, but also turned a profit. What is the point of giving SOE the hundreds of millions you think they spend developing games if try never turn a profit on those investments.

Originally posted by CrazKanuk

That being said, it's not CNs first rodeo. They have an extensive portfolio of tech companies, so maybe they know how to deliver software, I don't know. 

That might be true, but by all reports from Daybreak, Columbus Nova is hands off from operations and nothing has changed at Daybreaks operations or new leadership being put in place.

All things considered, that isn't good news.

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