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All Posts by jimprouner

All Posts by jimprouner

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142 posts found
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by St_konker
Do we know what is going to be in the cash shop or will it be a cash shop like....I dunno lets say WoW, where there are extra items and services you can only get if you pay cash.

WoW had mounts and pets in their cash shop. They basically said "Screw our subscribers, if they want this certain mount they have to pay more for it even though they already pay for the box price+expansions+subscription." Yes, some of the pets and mounts they said the money went to charity but how come they didn't just donate some of the billions of dollars they got per year from subscriptions alone to charity? Because of greed, plain and simple.

Are you trying to argue those stupid pets/mounts are P2W or something?  There aren't many available this way, and there are TONS of others in game.  The ones in shop are nothing by comparison.

It isn't greed to turn a profit.  Most of the money they made went back into the game to develop more content for its players. 

Originally posted by Tindale111
It came up on my facebook page today that ESO has over 150 hrs of content ,now if that was an rpg I would be dancing with joy ,but I remember being half way through wow and on typing /play my character had clocked up 13 days or 312 hrs .I realise gameplay is a bit different from content but 150 hrs didn't seem all that much to brag about even if you averaged just 10 hrs a week that's not going to hold you long

You kidding me?  2 weeks of content is totally worth a monthly fee.

/sarcasm

Originally posted by fiontar

Well, a lot of Subscription MMOs WANTED what you say WS devs want, but most of those games have devolved into niche F2P titles. Besides, I don't think you actually have any clue what Carbine wants, so it's doubly moot.

If Most Hardcore Players won't be able to play for free, then what you are saying is the entire CREDD carrot is BS to make hardcore players think they will be able to play for free. Again, I don't think you are making a cogent argument. I chose to take the system and Carbine at face value and have evaluated that system as presented. I'm open to logical arguements that don't rely on mind reading and supposition.

I never said Casuals will have to buy CREDD. I said Casuals will have to pay a subscription fee and Casuals willing to trade $Cash for power will have to pay the subscription fee AND at least $20 on top of that, meaning that in months they buy CREDD, they will be dishing out $35+ to play the game.

As to your final counterpoint, I'm guessing you don't play MMOs with friends and guilds. Believe me, many people will be resentful that the hardcore players who already have the best of everything and time to play the game like a job will have a viable path to play for free, while they, the casuals, subsidize their game play with a $15/month fee, whether they play 40 hours a month or 4.

The model is worse than Pay to Play, which is already an outdated business model that has killed many MMOs in recent years that may have otherwise have been able to get their legs under them with a more progressive business model. Many defenders of P2P cite the level playing field and no want/need/ability to spend more than a flat fee each month as the appeal. This game is P2P, but it also allows players to buy power with $Cash, which will turn off many of the dwindling numbers of players who still prefer P2P.

It's ill conceived and likely to be detrimental to the game's chances at success. Carbine said they want to hear what players think, well, I think my opinion is clear and it's not to late to avoid a potential debacle that this business model could produce.

No, this is the 1st MMO since WoW that plans on making player retention their #1 priority. 

The others tried to appeal to the masses!

 

Farming CREDD to play is like getting paid 30 cents an hour. 

Most people, hardcore or not, aren't going to be willing to do that.

 

You don't know the game will sell power for cash.

There is no evidence of P2W.

 

Idk about him,but I have lots of friends, and none of them are that petty. 

Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by Nemesis7884
Originally posted by coretex666

Longterm vertical character progression.

That would be so awesome.

imo thats the enemy of any mmo and especially a sandbox game - horizontal progression seems a lot more advisable and give more longevity...

Is a game without vertical character progression an RPG?

Would counter-strike with roaming monsters, possibility to construct and possibility to find other classes which use different weapons, in persistent world be an RPG?

Isnt developing your character the very core of any RPG?

What genre is EQN. Is it adventure? Arcade game? RPG?

Finding other classes is nice, but does it make a game an RPG?

 

I tend to agree.  Giving everyone everything is a delusion of choice.  There is no choices involved, and not leveling involved.  Is there any meaningful progression at all in this game?   How is this an MMORPG?  Its just an MMO.

Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

 


Originally posted by jimprouner

Originally posted by Kuraphimaru  

Originally posted by jimprouner

Originally posted by Adalwulff   No you haven't answered. I didn't make the claim, you did. You keep saying greed, all I'm asking is how much does it take to turn profit into greed. They haven't broken any business ethics, that is your bias opinion. Who are you to decide what is ethical?
I agree with JJ.   The reason all recent MMOs have failed is pure greed.  They launch P2P, and then refuse to update their game, and in some cases even fix simple bugs.  They take the money and pocket it instead of reinvesting that money back into the game.   ESO seems to be going down the same path.  I don't see this game having sufficient end game content to merit a P2P model, and I don't foresee a lot of updates.
  Ahem, a couple of questions. A. How can you say that ESO developers are not investing profits from subscriptions into fixing the game and providing patches WHEN THE GAME HAS NOT EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET? B. Did you already play an UNRELEASED game to the end to see that there is no end game content in it? C. What are the reasons for your foresight of lack of updates in the future of this title aside from being full of it? Please an answer them seriously because I'm extremely curious as to your reasoning and insights.
A)  It is the growing trend in the market.  They have also said the word update all of 1 time thus far I believe.

 

B) These is no end game content.  This is pretty much a fact.  They didn't even plan on having 1 adventure zone open before the game was delayed.  I mean its predominantly an easy mode single player game FFS.

C) Isn't this question A?  Again, this game is predominantly an easy mode single player game.  What updates could they even do besides pint sized GW2 style updates?   Problem is that Arenanet hands those out for free, because they aren't worth a sub!


 

Ok, I will bite on this stupidity.

A) It is also a growing trend in Canadian cell-phone market to charge more for less. Yet, the company I'm with provides with unlimited minutes, texts, and internet usage for $40 while every other provider would charge at least $60-70 with severe limits. The trend is to screw customers and they don't seem to be following it. Catch my drift?

B) Facts are verifiable. Please show evidence supporting the non-existance of end game content. OH WAIT! You can't. THE GAME IS STILL IN DEVELOPMENT and NO ONE PLAYED IT TO THE END.

C) Oh I dunno. Skyrim was a single player game and they released 2 pretty decent expansions and one cosmetic DLC. Just because Arenanet got their heads stuck in their collective asses when it comes to updates doesn't mean every one else.

My advice, Don't judge a whole market based on mistakes made by select few.

C)

Ohh the irony.

A)  Exceptions may exist, but the burden of proof is on you to prove it is an exception.  Good luck, since it hasn't happened yet.

B) The game might be in development, but they have told us the elements within the game.  Once you get to max level you can fart around in some dungeons, and do a few more quests.  Not end game.  We have all this evidence it doesn't exist, so yet again if you are claiming it does, then provide proof.  It's not my responsibility to prove your god exists.

C) Meh, GW2 style updates you had to pay for.  Ripoff.


Originally posted by lizardbones

 

I was following StoryBricks back when they were trying to make a game out of it. It's not random choices, it's a decision tree kind of thing. It's not all that different from how people decide to do things.

Given a set of "wants", the AI will follow the decision tree to achieve the goal. The example they use is a group of gnolls or something wanting a relatively quiet area, where a few travelers come through. If an area gets to busy, the gnolls will search out another area. If there aren't enough travelers to attack, they'll search out another area. By itself, that one set of gnolls isn't very intelligent.

However, the NPC guards use the same system. So players can report a gnoll sighting to the guards, and the guards may search out and drive the gnolls off, or they may offer a reward to players for killing the gnolls. Now the system is a little more intelligent and responsive to the players.

None of the NPCs will do something that the developers don't first supply an action for. The gnolls will not start writing poetry, but they may try to bribe players into leaving them alone, or they may hire assassins to kill a particularly aggressive player. The AI is more intelligent than current MMORPG AI systems, and it's certainly more responsive than existing AI systems.

 

You are expecting too much from the AI that spawns mobs

 

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

The combat stuff is pretty trivial in comparison. We've had advanced combat AI for years now. We could have combat AI that wipes the floor with players by always making the right choices, and that includes group combat. Blizzard could do that in WoW. They need to be able to do stuff like that for testing purposes. They just don't turn that AI on the players because it wouldn't be fun and would be a road block towards the goal of dropping loot for the players.

I agree.  This has already existed, which is why it is PR hype.  It isn't hard to make a computer better than players, but it would be stupid to turn it on, because no one wants to play a near impossible game.

That picture reminds me of brokeback mountain.   it is kind of gross.  

Nice interview though.  I was shocked it came from athene.

Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by ariboersma

Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs So they gave an Award to a Pre-configured Demo of a Game still in early Beta? Guess we will be seeing those 9.0 Reviews from MMORPG.com real soon then too
I giggled =P 

 

ok so I DO like ESO.. but best RPG?!?!? how the hell would they know from what little is available! Also I find it hilarious that the pics they show on FB of Gamescon are pretty low in numbers of ppl.. oh wait and then they showed a pic of the ENTRANCE HALL claiming it was all the ppl coming to see their booth... WHAT?!?!?! Zenimax is getting a tad cocky and they need to be careful with WIldstar having such a clever and humorous ad campaign, also actual screenshots of their own booth and how crowded it was.

That being said I actually hope both games do well and both are good enough to survive P2P. All that will come out when they offer open beta or on release.


 

they need to be careful about wildstar? wildstar wont effect their sales much, wildstar will have a niche following at best compared to ESO.

wildstar needs to have aggressive marketing campaigns, ESO's box sales are virtually guaranteed due to name alone, they could market their game a lot less and still dwarf wildstar's box sales or player numbers.

especially when you consider that ESO will be on the consoles. honestly, no mmo should concern ESO when it comes to box sales.

this is just the reality of the situation and does not speak to the quality of the games, even though i personally wont be playing wildstar myself due to the cartoonish art style i don't like.

how long can ESO hold a large amount of subs? that is he million dollar question.

whatever that number is, it will be more than wildstar, just sayin...

I am not impressed by how many boxes a game sells.

ESO will sell more boxes based solely on IP, but WS is a much better game, and it will be the one that endures.

 

Originally posted by n00854180t

The OP doesn't have the faintest idea of what he is even talking about. Academic AI and game AI are not the same thing. Further, more advanced AI systems than "holy trinity" (which is not even AI by the way, it's a simplistic system that can't even considered to have real behavior) have existed for almost a decade. 

F.E.A.R. (which came out in 2005, a mere YEAR after WoW) for instance uses action planning, which means the agent only knows the end goal, not any of the steps to accomplish it. That is EONS more advanced than "trinity AI" and wasn't built by MIT. And we've had almost 10 years of AI advancements since then. 

MIT has jack to do with game AI advancements, and they can hardly solve a problem they have never bothered to attempt solving, making this guy's entire point both wrong and moot.

This post is laughable and the OP's severe ignorance of anything to actually do with the topic of game AI is readily apparent.

 

He has all the credibility of a crack junkie asking to hold on to your wallet.

You dolts realize that the whole MIT thing was just sarcasm right?

Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

 


Originally posted by jimprouner

Originally posted by Adalwulff   No you haven't answered. I didn't make the claim, you did. You keep saying greed, all I'm asking is how much does it take to turn profit into greed. They haven't broken any business ethics, that is your bias opinion. Who are you to decide what is ethical?
I agree with JJ.

 

The reason all recent MMOs have failed is pure greed.  They launch P2P, and then refuse to update their game, and in some cases even fix simple bugs.  They take the money and pocket it instead of reinvesting that money back into the game.  

ESO seems to be going down the same path.  I don't see this game having sufficient end game content to merit a P2P model, and I don't foresee a lot of updates.


 

Ahem, a couple of questions.

A. How can you say that ESO developers are not investing profits from subscriptions into fixing the game and providing patches WHEN THE GAME HAS NOT EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET?

B. Did you already play an UNRELEASED game to the end to see that there is no end game content in it?

C. What are the reasons for your foresight of lack of updates in the future of this title aside from being full of it?

Please an answer them seriously because I'm extremely curious as to your reasoning and insights.

A)  It is the growing trend in the market.  They have also said the word update all of 1 time thus far I believe.

B) These is no end game content.  This is pretty much a fact.  They didn't even plan on having 1 adventure zone open before the game was delayed.  I mean its predominantly an easy mode single player game FFS.

C) Isn't this question A?  Again, this game is predominantly an easy mode single player game.  What updates could they even do besides pint sized GW2 style updates?   Problem is that Arenanet hands those out for free, because they aren't worth a sub!

Originally posted by AmbrosiaAmor
Originally posted by Iselin

See you in 2016! (e.g. it took Rift 2 years to get there...you think this will be worse than Rift? lol)

 

If you look at the trends from themepark games the gap between release as P2P and switching to F2P has lessened. Games that took a decade to go F2P went down to 5 years then 3 years then 1 year. As it stands some of the more recent MMORPGs made the switch or at the very least made the announcement of going F2P at around the 6 month mark. It is very possible that it can happen with ESO.

 

I wrote an article here and made the breakdown and the current state of P2P games in the MMO landscape:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/394763

 

It is a very lengthy read, but to make the article extremely compact: At this very moment in time there are over 600 MMOs available to the western market. Of those only 11 of them currently operate using the P2P business model exclusively. 7 of those games were released prior to 2005. 4 of those games were released post 2005.

Every other single game released as P2P (over 60+ games in the past 15 years) has either shut down, gone F2P, gone F2P and P2W, and in almost every case have gone through severe server merges. That is looking at the history and trends the MMO landscape has gone through.

 

If you look at the past 8 years, there have been only 3 games that have continued to use the P2P model... I should say 4 since FFXIV ARR released today. I would be very surprised if this game can go for more than a year without going F2P with its current plan as going P2P tagged with a cash shop.

Another fool pretending to be an expert. 

These games didn't fail because they were P2P.  They failed because they lacked end game and updates.  The MMOs of recent years are using the P2P model to get a faster return on their investment, and to potentially make more money.  They know or just don't care about keeping the game going for years to come.

 

ESO won't fail because it is P2P.

Its just a ripoff.  This will chase away subs, but not before they collect a gross sum of money.

Originally posted by ariboersma
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

So they gave an Award to a Pre-configured Demo of a Game still in early Beta?

Guess we will be seeing those 9.0 Reviews from MMORPG.com real soon then too

I giggled =P 

ok so I DO like ESO.. but best RPG?!?!? how the hell would they know from what little is available! Also I find it hilarious that the pics they show on FB of Gamescon are pretty low in numbers of ppl.. oh wait and then they showed a pic of the ENTRANCE HALL claiming it was all the ppl coming to see their booth... WHAT?!?!?! Zenimax is getting a tad cocky and they need to be careful with WIldstar having such a clever and humorous ad campaign, also actual screenshots of their own booth and how crowded it was.

That being said I actually hope both games do well and both are good enough to survive P2P. All that will come out when they offer open beta or on release.

That is interesting.  Maybe, that just means best graphics, because that is about the only RPG element they could have thoroughly reviewed within that time limit. 

These awards mean diddly shit.

I can't believe they didn't give WS more.  The booth was packed!

Originally posted by killahh
Originally posted by jimprouner
Originally posted by Nemesis7884

depends on what you consider "smart" - creating challenging ai isnt difficult - every simple chess program does it...simply programm it to respond to every action with the optimal counter action - et voila challenging battles...but that has nothing to do with ai...

if youre talking about "real" ai, you talk about the ability to create and adapt - especially outside of battle - and that to me is mostly marketing... what they probably will do is have simply scripted events like

 

every hour mobs gain 1 mob, once they reach 10 mobs, attack the nearest village...things like that...

You don't understand anything about programming.   A chess program is easy.   You can easily see how they work by calculating every possible move several moves deep, and evaluating the end result.  A chess board is static, with a very refined set of rules, which makes it easy.  The chess computer isn't responding to you in any meaningful way, it is just analyzing the new position.

actually, being a programmer, i dare to disagree.

it is far easier to make a kickass  AI based on rules than you may think. i have allready posted this earlier on, but its apperant that people dont take the time to read the thread, but just dive in with invalid opinions disguised as truth.

Everybody and his brother says he is a programmer on the internet!

 

I am not a programmer, but I am a chess player.  So, I know how these programs work.

They are nothing even remotely close to what I would call advanced AI.  It is just an example of computing power.

They have had chess computer programs that could play at a 2000+ ELO, Master level, for like 30 years.  Current day programs are estimated at about 3000 ELO, thus putting them at above human level.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by achesoma
 

Which means nothing. Best gear in game is achieved through hardcore raiding...PERIOD. And Carbine is not keeping it a secret.  Your comment isn't even hyperbole but outright false. 

And when the game opens up, and no one has any raid gear, who will be the 1st ones to get it?

The ones who got teh best that could be gotten by getting a leg up and a head start afforded by CREDD. And once they get their raid gear, who will be the one who have all the coveted progression raid slots? (Hint: see above answer)

And those who don't do progression raiding...the casuals will throw the same "It's not fair" temper tantrums they throw in every game with this kind of progression so you know they'll be screaming "P2W"

 

@Ariboresma:

GW2 offers the ability to buy gems. I can convert that into gold. Take a brand new LVL1 toon and buy all the crafting mats with the gold and start crafting. From 1-400 in the 1st craft gets me 10 levels. Hey, good thing there are 8 crafts. I can go from 1...OK 2 or 3 depending. to 80 doing nothing but crafting off the gold I purchased. So I can in fact buy a level capped toon in GW2 with real money. OK,  from there, I can also equip it with full exotics...even a legendary if I were so motivated. I cannot get full ascended gear. Why isn't that P2W? Because in GW2, there isn't really a vertical progression. But you can believe in any other MMORPG, that would be considered P2W. Hell, it was only a couple months ago everyone was screaming P2W at Rift for offering inferior gear in shop. And it was a long thread with lots of arguments back and forth. So, I guess it must really be subjective. But sorry, in Wildstar, this will be an advantage from the beginning so it's P2W.

Also, GW2 has no economy. nothing in the game has any value unless it's associated with precursors. There is no reason to craft, there is no real market trading done by players. All these meta-games are destroyed by Gems. Let's not even go into the RNG mechanics of the game.

So I guess, it's possible that WS could be like GW2 and not be P2W, but then you can bet it will be a shallow MMO with a vertical progression where if you aren't in combat, you aren't doing anything worthwhile. 

 

@JJ69:

When did WoW open a sanctioned gold market? I know I've been out of it for a while, but I didn't think they opened a full fledged cash shop or gold market

But to answer your question. How much P2W. Well, the less P2W Wildstar gets, the less meta-game it will have since it's currency will need to be devalued in order to not be P2W. But that's a different argument.

 

When the game 1st starts up there won't even be decent greens on the AH.

Besides, getting a leg up doesn't do you any good if you can't maintain pace.

 

Sanctioning gold selling or not is splitting hairs.  Regardless, whether CREDD existed or not gold will be for sell on 3rd party sites. 

Originally posted by shadylurker
Originally posted by Punk999
what? I played a spellslinger at gamescom you do aim with your skills.. kinda hard to miss tho.Some skills have a huge area while others like True shot you really gotta aim.

I thought the way it worked was horrible.  It feels like it needs that mouse locked semi targeting aiming, like Neverwinter.  It is absolutely an abortion at the moment, and a major turn off to the game.  

Argue what you want, It needs mouse lock and a reticule at the minimum, the way it is now is like combining combat like TERA's with the movement system and targeting of a game like WOW.  It works against its self, and feels totally un natural / clunky as a mo fo.  There is no auto shoot, so your holding down a mouse button (to move your view) and spamming your skill bars while using wasd  to try and position your self so your Cone of fire or what ever skill you're using doesn't miss.  It's an absolute cluster F---, and the #1 reason I wont purchase the game.

 

Think about it this way,  Think of any action combat game like diablo,  give yourself the camera controls and mouse use of WOW, and the hotbar of GW1, now imagine having to walk up to every skeleton and press 1 or 2 (your basic attacks) for every single attack, but make sure you have the right skeleton tab (or mouse) targeted so as to hit the ones that are closest together and fit in your swing range. Oh yea don't forget to spam dodge in the direction you want to go...

 

It's just a joke as it sits now, and a serious dissapointment.

 

TLDR:

I am bad at video games, and afraid of change.

 

They will likely enable you to lock your camera to move as an option, or do it by default.  The game won't be out for at least 6 months!

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

depends on what you consider "smart" - creating challenging ai isnt difficult - every simple chess program does it...simply programm it to respond to every action with the optimal counter action - et voila challenging battles...but that has nothing to do with ai...

if youre talking about "real" ai, you talk about the ability to create and adapt - especially outside of battle - and that to me is mostly marketing... what they probably will do is have simply scripted events like

 

every hour mobs gain 1 mob, once they reach 10 mobs, attack the nearest village...things like that...

You don't understand anything about programming.   A chess program is easy.   You can easily see how they work by looking at the notation.  They are calculating every possible move several moves deep, and evaluating the end result.  A chess board is static, with a very refined set of rules, which makes it easy to code.  The chess computer isn't responding to you in any meaningful way, it is just analyzing the new position.

Originally posted by Adalwulff

 

No you haven't answered.

I didn't make the claim, you did. You keep saying greed, all I'm asking is how much does it take to turn profit into greed.

They haven't broken any business ethics, that is your bias opinion. Who are you to decide what is ethical?

I agree with JJ.

The reason all recent MMOs have failed is pure greed.  They launch P2P, and then refuse to update their game, and in some cases even fix simple bugs.  They take the money and pocket it instead of reinvesting that money back into the game.  

ESO seems to be going down the same path.  I don't see this game having sufficient end game content to merit a P2P model, and I don't foresee a lot of updates.

Originally posted by Superman0X
Originally posted by jimprouner
Originally posted by Superman0X

The Payment model is most likely straighforward:

 

F2P + Box (Optional Exclusive Item Sales + CS Currency) + Cash Shop (Optional Item Sales) + Sub (Optional Sub for bonus + CS Currency)

 

This makes the game fully F2P, but with incentives to buy the box, sub for bonus, and then use the Cash Shop. No restrictions on content, but bonus items to make it easier/faster/better looking. Why should any game being launched today forgoe any of the monitization options that customers want.

There is not a chance in hell the game is straight up F2P!

The last quote on reddit practically tells you straight up that you will have to buy the box.

 

More than likely this is the model,

Buy Box

Cash shop with only cosmetic items

F2P or Subscription (Subs get CS currency and some other perks)

Bah, this is just a matter of time. I do not disagree that they can make money by requiring a box (physical or virutal) sale to start... and then drop it 3 months in. I would be surprised if they did not already have this planned. There is no real advantage to B2P past the first few months of sales, and it converts to F2P very easily (no real changes, except the requirement to buy). This is why the box sales will basically be exclusive bonus items... which can be sold after they convert.

Actually there are 2 massive advantages to selling a box,

 

#1

 

#2

You need the box sales to pay for the overwhelming cost of development!

 

GW2 for instance has sold 2.6 million copies

2.6 million sales * $60 = $156 million dollars

 

That isn't chump change!

 

Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by jimprouner
Originally posted by furbans

[mod edit]  P2W is subjective at times it seems and really when push comes to shove they will go down the route for profit 9 times out of 10.

P2W isn't that subjective.  To say otherwise is just PR spin after the fact.

 

Just because some shit MMOs didn't mention the fact they were P2W, and then turned out to be, then all new games are automatically assumed to be P2W!  Even if they say they aren't...  Damn, that is a sad cynical pessimistic way to look at things.

I don't get you guys.  If you say your game isn't P2W, then it isn't.  If you had some reason to doubt carbine, then I could understand.  A coupe dishonest people doesn't make everyone dishonest.   Seriously though, how else do you prove the game isn't P2W if plainly stating it isn't sufficient?  What level of proof do you need?

P2W is very subjective.  Hell people were clamoring how even GW2 was "P2W" which is utter nonesense.

I just won't be tooting your horn how a game will not be P2W when no details are given out.

And it's not a couple of dishonest people, time n time again have I seen companies make the claim of "purely cosmetic and itme effeciency items" when in fact the opposite is true.  So much so that it has become a trend.

The definition of P2W is pretty standard actually.  Just because you saw one idiot make a post that GW2 was P2W means nothing.  I could probably find a post that says WoW is P2W. 

 

It doesn't matter how many dishonest people you know.  Do you have any proof carbine is untrustworthy?

Just ooc, do you think it is better for a company to declare it isn't P2W, or do you think it is better for them to not say anything?  Because it looks like you are just going to assume whatever you want regardless.

Sadly its sort of like TSW in which you have no real choices.  Choices indicate you are accepting one condition while exluding the others.  You get to do everything in ES.   it is a cheap plastic style to creating games.
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