another good game dies because of greed.  FU Sony/Lucas/EA and this consumer generation of idiots.

Originally posted by Sorrow

It all goes back to WoW, WoW released just as MMO's went mainstream, basically you had millions of morons flooding into online gaming as the new " cool " ,  cheap entertainment.

Some flocked to other titles like UO or EQ and found them way too difficult for their small brains to process, but Blizzard had anticipated the market, and had developed an MMO for kindergarteners, a game solely designed to make idiots feel intelligent, a gimme game to inflate egos, and provide immediate gratification. The moronic masses swarmed in, and Blizzard became the star of the show. 

Almost overnight all over game studios realized blizzards success and the market they were appealing to and instantly scraped all projects that needed any reasoning, math ability, or creative thinking, and instead turned all focus to producing idiots games.

At the same time young people realized there was a whole new jobs market opening up, so tons of the kids working the deep fryer at McDonalds ran down to their local vo-tech and got a game designers certificate, 6 weeks and $300 and you too are a certified game designer... well being as tons of crap games were being coded these dev studios needed bodies so all these over-night game designers got hired into the industry, non gamer, non intelligent, non creative, non free-thinking, fry guys now making our games.

So now not only are games being made for idiots, they are being made by idiots..

hahaha! nice one mate

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

Blizzard makes games which appeal to a more casual base, no doubt, but at the highest tiers of their games you find plenty of hardcore players because their games have enough depth to appeal even at that level.  That's exactly why they're so successful (pre-WOW and post-).  They create games which are pretty close to the minute-to-learn-lifetime-to-master ideal of game design.

If rampant success, which indirectly indicates more players having fun, is indicative of a genre dying, then I hope all genres "die" like this.

sorry, but I have to chime in on this...

As others have stated before; just because 1 game in the genre has millions of players, it does not at all mean that the genre itself is doing "great" -   I'm really sick of hearing this arguement whenever I or another jaded vet that feels like our genre has been hijacked by the MTV/Reality TV generation brings up the fact that the flooded mmorpg genre is filled to the brim with too many bad games.      

I also hear the new-gen mmo players always hiding behind rubbish like this:  "well, there are more MMORPGs now than ever before, and more investors are willing to put money into the development of these games now, and that is a direct result of WoW's success.  You should all be thanking Blizzard for putting MMORPGs on the map"  ---  

That's utterly ridiculous.   Why should the mmorpg community be thankful for a game that caused the death of all the mechanics and characteristics we loved about the genre in the first place?   Why should the mmorpg community be thankful for all the mmo game options being reduced to MOBAs?  (multiplayer online battle arenas aka lobby hack'n'slashes)  

Just because there are 'more' people playing WoW than there are of veteran MMORPG gamers doesn't make everything the veterans think feel and say irrelivant.    I don't care if WoW had 20-50million subs, it still doesn't and shouldn't make my voice or anyone else's unheard when it comes to the simple fact that those millions of players are not actually a part of the MMORPG community.   They are not playing an MMORPG, so, in all honesty, although everyone has a right to opinion, I don't think theirs should hold as much weight as it does when it comes to developers taking into consideration 'feedback from the MMORPG community" --   May as well ask 9 year old T-ball players for their opinion on how Major League Baseball should be handled.    

The problem, as far as 'these games are all the same' or 'sandbox/themepark is better than..." goes is that Blizzard knows how to market their products better than the other developers.  They know how to reach the target audience(s) and they know that the most important aspect of a released game is that IT WORKS.   Unfortunately, everyone else is trying so hard to pull in the million+ subscribers that they don't care what the end result is at launch as long as enough people buy it.   

The MMORPGS (not WoW, not WAR, not AION, not RIFT... but the REAL ones that have MASSIVE amounts of people interacting without lobbies and queue systems and instanced arenas and the like. The ones with RPG aspects and character customization and large emersive worlds) were never developed by companies with superb marketting strategies.   They were developed for nerdy gamers by nerdy gamers and were perfectly satisfied pulling in any kind of profit.     Today we have corporations and investors and marketting/advertisement specialists making all the decisions about how the games are built, and thus, we no longer have games built for the MMORPG community, but instead, we have MOBA's built for the "video game players"   -- there are many reasons why MMORPGs were so different than the typical 'videogames', and one of them is that the community doesn't mix well.       But, alas, it is what it is.   The mighty dollar is all that matters now, and the casual crowd has more dollars to offer the greedy pricks at the top of the development chain.

MMORPGs are dead or at least dying.   the few real ones left will die too unless the now considered 'niche' playerbase of veteran MMORPG players (which, i might add, are the ones everyone should actually be thanking for the success of the genre instead of Blizz)   decide to take control on the development side, because this fresh new batch of post-graduate kids that saw too many "do you wanna create videogames for a living?  call this number and enroll!" commercials are running the show now, funded and instructed by business majors that don't play MMORPGs at all.

 

Sorry for the wall/rant.  This topic just fires me up.    Too many times do I hear "that 1 game has 12 million players, so, they are doing what's right and everyone should follow with a smile"  --

There was a time when the majority of the people on this planet thought it was flat and that we were the center of the universe.  Billions of people thought this, and a very small amount (in the 100s-1000s) disagreed.  Food for thought.   Majority vote doesn't mean it's right.   Most, and I stress that word... MOST people are lazy, selfish, dumb, and afraid of anything different or that they can't explain.    This is why the MMORPG genre was created.  The MINORITY of people that didn't see eye-to-eye with this Majority needed something different to play.  Somewhere to escape.   Oh well....   

Good post mate. I agree completly. but in your frustration you got to understand that the new generation is educated this way. Thinking too much, challening things these days are too much for the poor brains:

High Profits means quality

Easy means good, challengin is bad.

American Dream, and all that dumb crap.

If its on TV it must be true! lol

And so on. The MTV / iPHONE / EMO Generation.

Some people evolve, but most of them are just brainwashed by corporations/religion/badsociety practices and never recover. In the next 10-20 years with the new economic bubble, nature will make her natural selection.

i love how u guys take for real Blizz saying that they still have 10,9mil subs..

PR does miracles in brainwashing people.

As for Rift it was a nice game, but it will die fast when new boys come up.

Originally posted by Metentso

Yes dispise Nocht, it's easy. You don't need to know anything.

i gave you my arguments, while u follow blind  the trends.

its a nice sandbox experience, but because it wasnt meant for high multiplayer, the so called praised "notch" made the most buggies shit server software i saw so far, and of course modders from bukkit have to fix all his stupid shits every time he updates the game. On top of that, this is most cheatable game you will ever played multiplayer, there so many cheat clients, and hacks that you cannot stop them...

I ran a popular server for a while, with updates agaisnt cheaters, but after i did a research, its kind impossible to keep a fair enviorment in this game, since the main minecraft.jar is not protected..

Very good game single, multi its full of kids with modable clients, xray, speed hacks etc...

Maybe a few monts after release, we will have more stable server vesion tho i doubt it.

He made 30 mil euros from this game, and he invested back a few milions, with a poor staff to work on the game.

Notch is not indie anymore.

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

I have been reading on various websites all the recent updates and changes to WoW, the latest being removing the threat issue for Tanks, which I read  on the "TenTonHammer" gaming website. It seems ever since SWTOR went pre-order there has been a flood of updates, content, changes etc etc from WoW. I guess it makes sense to pull out the stops with the sales numbers SWTOR is showing and of course its Star Wars.

I am beginning to feel that even though WoW is fantasy and SWTOR is Sci-Fi, that the old age debate of Fantasy Players not leavign WoW for a Sci-Fi MMO is a mute point.

What do you think?

Blizzard lost most of the best people in the last 6 years. The people that made Blizzard great are not working for them anymore.

Instead they work of ArenaNet, Carbine. Runicgames, Trion, and many other studios. I cant wait to see Blizz fail, tho is gona take some time. They still gona make dumb down mmorpgers, and people will fall for it, but with quality competition, things wont be easier for Blizz.

I was a huge Blizzard fan since, Warcraft I, in 2005 Blizzard died for me, Same with Bioware when they sold to EA. The last good game Bioware developed was KOTOR 1. ME 1 wasnt bad either, but unfinished.

Originally posted by keithian

After watching the latest videos, I am convinced that Bioware has improved the environments 100% from just a year ago, including the animations. When I watch the first 30-45 seconds of the video below and focus on the environments, there is not one game out there that matches it in my opinion. Very detailed and perfect for the Star Wars Universe we are looking for.  I'm not talking about the game play which I think has to show case two of the worst players in MMO history lol, just the enviroments. Now I haven't tried FInal Fantasy because I knew what a disaster that was going to be, but even if the artistry is not your thing the ambiance they have created is top notch...especially considering this is not the final build.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRnXws_37xs&hd=1

 

Updated:

This video is easier on the eyes because a turd isn't playing it lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxMbI30KKJ0

I guess u never played Rift or EVE Online on high end graphics. SWTOR looks like Hello Kitty online compared to this games, also compared to GW 2 ...

I can wait to hear how disapointed fans will be of this game. I will be here with other veteran mmorpgers, to tell. "NO WAI?!!"

Originally posted by mikahr

Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity.

Just because you adore stagnation and medioctity doesnt make you "right", cause if it were up to you we would still live in caves, hurl rocks and charge with stics cause, you know, that are the "standars".

Thanks God there are people that dont bend over to "standards" and raise their voice against stagnation and mediocraties.

Yah, shoot me wanting for genre to advance, such a sacrilige in your mind, and we must not allow that. Just look at Rift, lol. If it would have been made in 1999 it would look, play and feel the same.

We will see about SWTOR, it still can be played as single player, but im not really covinced many people have desire to pay 15$/month for single player game.

nice post mate, i am gona quote you on this "Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity." Which is very true, thus we are in the mess on mmo market  today, where only indie companies try to bend the standards. This happens because mostly its a bussiness, and less art and inovation like any niche, or business in the world.

Originally posted by Aglaranna

Here's a small part of it:

 

"Blizzard’s World of Warcraft is the touchstone on which BioWare measures its forthcoming Star Wars MMO, The Old Republic.

Speaking on the keynote panel today at the DICE Summit in Vegas, BioWare’s Greg Zeschuk said that the company is following the rules established by Blizzard’s subscription fantasy MMO.

“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""

 

::groan:: Really? He thinks it is dumb if any game deviates from the WoW model? Oh man I have just lost all hope for SWTOR. He is basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin.

Poor keynote from his part.

What he really meant, or he should, that WOW improved or released some standards, from UI, game mechanics, controls etc. Unfortunly as in Rift and other games, the developers copy more then these standards(for a fast buck), which in the end only hurts their game. Every game is a inspiration of previous ones, with some features new or improved, depending on these features the game will do well, and have a long life, unless they dont bring enough "new" or "improved" things to the table.

Of course many of the players have hardly any eye to distinguish this, so the developers are doing pretty well:)

See COD series or WOW addons, or etc...

sandbox games are made for player interaction pvp, castle siges, high end crafting while theme park mmos are made for casual people and normal players that want a quick and fun ride, while they are guided by an invisible hand.

sandbox is what you make of, the developers give you the tools to build, craft, pvp, conquer where you and your clan estabilish your goals. I would take any sandbox to a themepark anytime, but they are only 2-3 good enough to play: EVE Online, Darkfall, and the rest are semi sandbox...

also most of the sandbox have enough pve content, not always extradionary, but pve content is crap by default, most of it. Besides lets say some dungeons systems and Public Quests. So sandbox lackin of content its a myth, like the one with EVE that requires years to become competitive, instead of 1-2 months

sorry for offtopic.

its a polished mmo, that doesnt bring enough to the table to actually make it count.

its gona do pretty well in the long run, but its not a mmo for veteran players(as those that played most of the theme park mmos to death, in the last 5-10 years)

combat is nice, soul system is quite good but is gona be a bitch to balance to any pvp system, rifts look awesome but they are weaker than Wars PQs on the mechanic (subjective).

i played it for a few hours and i got so bored to death, since we've been doing the same things over and over in the last years. Yes Wow and EQ made some standards and thus Rift implemented them too, but some are ridicolous copy and paste.  Maybe i am sick of theme parks mmo i guess, tho i am looking for GW 2 and i am little hyped.

overall a great mmo for new mmo players, a mediocre polished mmo for veterans.

Its a little sad that with so much talent and budget, they managed to bring a huge deja vu, and only a few features to distinguish itself as new AAA MMO

lolol. CO is goin F2P at the end of the month and STO probably in 6 months too. I had  a lot of respect for Cryptic sometime ago with COH, but man these guys are the next Activision lol.

BUY NOW! haha

i would love to play a polished versioon of a game like this and with a decent game design and level design. Entropia lacks on both. I m having a blast in Darkfall lately which it doesnt even have a powerfull epic engine as Crysis2, but at least they played some mmos.

So yeah there is huge potential but besides adding a very poor tutorial, keeping the same old bad stuff from 5 years ago including the interface LOL,  is still a very poor game with nice graphics. That doesnt mean that if u enjoy it, its bad, good for you, have fun.

Originally posted by Garland7G

Originally posted by TheIllusive

because the game is very boring after Tortage... I tried several times to get into it but I never got past level 45. I agree that the game has many cool things, but it just lacks certain important elements. Im even thinking of returning to WoW after 6 years! :P

 Don't do it! I just cancelled my sub, the reason was, after hitting 85, it just turns into a big ass grind like aoc's xpac.

hit 85, then...?

grind heroics, grind rep, grind professions, grind dailies, grind some more then farm.

I grinded my ass off from vanilla all the way through Wotlk,just to do it again in cata?

The new pvp zone tol barad is worse than WG ever was and the new bg's are poor too imo.

 

edit: this may sound harsh but i was really excited about cata, but its just more of the same, wow has a formula with xpacs i noticed:

1. get to max level of xpac

2. grind through the xpacs dungeons for heroic gear

3. grind through the same dungeons on heroic mode for raid gear

3. grind through the same raid until the next tier is released

4. 2 yrs later a new xpac is released (return to 1.)

Finally somebody understood the Blizzard scheme, now we will see if the rest  of 10mil get it lol.

Cheers to you

At the moment even with the heavly instanced server arthitecture and poor ground combat, its probably the best mmo to try untill the new ones start to launch, after that i dont know.

Why? Because of the missions, space combat, customization and even that limited instanced PVP.

Most important from report are long term features:

Long Term
Designs and features being considered for updates further in the future

• Converting First Officer to Playable Captain
• Fleet Starbases
• Fleet Action Updates
• More Fleet Actions
• More PVP Maps
• Updated Game Tutorial and ability to skip it
• More iconic locations such as Starfleet Academy, Rura Penthe etc...
• Explorable Sol System
• Improved Social Planets with social gameplay
• More Minigames
• More Borg parts for AlienGen
• Ability to construct new ships at Starbases
• Territory Control War
• Deepspace Exploration Concept
• Additional Playable Factions (Romulan, Cardassian...)
• Android species
• Aenar species
• Talaxian species
• Hologram species
• Improved Hair Tech

Originally posted by FarReach

Entropia has always been and will always be a Scam disguised as a 3D Game.

This.

I tried the game 3 times during the last 5 years, thinking i was missing something. But its not even a game, the most common basics of game design and mmo design were thrown out of the window years ago. MMORPG.com shoudnt even list this POS.

Stay away ! Even DF is with his poor animations, ui and clumsy mmo system is like 100x better than this. I really dont how they get players to actually play that "game" for weeks and months, even pay for it lol

Found out later that most of them have no ideea about the games. The ideea of paying for stuff, and harsh dead conditions is great, but is so poorly executed and misleading here, that is not even worth any atention.

While i completly hate the idiots frmo NC Soft, i have hope that ArenaNet will release a good game(GW2). The only problem i have with them is that they sold their company to NC Soft, which in long term it will hurt them, but they will learn the hard way.

As for history of NC Soft, well most of the players know that it's a horrible, shady company that should be banned from West, Europe.

for decentish mmo list, you could try this one: http://www.mmorpg-center.com/category/mmorts-strategy some of them are under development tho:(

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