Originally posted by Aladyleyna

 As long as there's a thread containing this subject matter, people will continue to talk about it. So yes, you kind of defeated the purpose of your thread.

Thank goodness there are two threads now. That should really help end the subject right? :P

In this thread, its been pointed out that voice changing software has been available for some time now. That alone sorta renders this a non-issue. I mean, from what I am reading, the argument against is that someone might possibly lie and that this feature might possibly perpetuate the lie. Some arguments even seem to be framing this as a feature that only liars would use.

Now, with that in mind, I am pretty sure some guy in Nigeria wants to give me a lot of money if I just put some money in an account for him so he can claim my future riches. Call me crazy, but that sounds like a scam. And it happened via email no less! As a result, I believe that email should be banned due to the chance someone might be dishonest using it.

To get more relevant to the conversation, I can ask someone via email what their gender is and they can present themselves dishonestly. They can even send me a picture that could possibly be them. Therefore, they've duped me using a communication tool much like this voice chat.

Now, we can start picking off various forms of communication such as vent, email, IM, etc but then this whole internet thing starts getting a lot less useful. Instead, we can not open ourselves up for getting taken advantage of and stick to the idea that, if a player is a good player, then they are a good player regardless of gender. If you have good conversations then those conversations are good regardless of gender. If, for some reason, you feel compelled to take things beyond the game then it's really on the two parties involved to establish some level of trust and knowing that this tool exists should be enough to rule game-based voice chat out as a verification tool.

In the meantime, voice chat is a tool that is not malicious in any form. It merely exists as a medium and anyone can use it for positive or negative results just the same as text based communication. 

Originally posted by rwmiller

Okay, let's change the myth. This Eve is on one server thing is the real myth. Eve Online is played on one honking big cluster with lots of instanced systems that you have to move to. If anywhere near all of the players normally online (20k to 30k) tried to enter Jita I suspect that Iceland would go up in a cloud of steam from the resulting meltdown.

The fact that it is really just a bunch of interconnected systems normally doesn't matter until you get to a gate and are told you can transfer because there is congestion and traffic control won't let you pass. Yes in space they can't hear you scream even when in a traffic jam.

Perhaps I should have said "realm" to represent one logical environment in that I can talk to people regardless of what zone they are in be it Jita, Ours, etc. This isn't a whole lot different then other zoned games that present themselves as having all said zones of the world contained within a realm so there wasn't really any agenda in using the term "server". Aside from that, I think you would be hard pressed to find any modern MMO where a "server" is not in fact a cluster of systems.

Saying Eve is instanced...Now that is the myth! See, we can all do this and go back and forth and sound extra silly in the process. I'm willing to bet we could all make compelling arguments meant to make us sound really smart while still finding something to nitpick about. Ultimately, there are roughly 300k subscribers, whether they be individual people or multi-account holders, that play in one Universe and who have the potential of blowing each other up should the situation arise.

Originally posted by SilverDropX

No MMO out there gives accurate CCU numbers.  Why would they?

I'm going to guess CCU is meant to be Concurrent Users? If so, EvE displays how many users are online at the login screen and, being one server it's really the only place you need to look. I mean sure, I guess the number could be inaccurate, but that starts to get into conspiracy theories and what not.

Originally posted by Nasir64

Considering I havn't paid real money for an account in the past few years, No. And if you read the posts before then apparently it is a hidden secret people don't want others to know. lol

Somebody paid real money for that PLEX that you bought with ISK right? So, that in mind, yes, your account(s) still generates revenue.

As far as it being secret, fair enough. I never got that impression, but if you feel that way then there must be others who do as well so that alone makes the point worth mentioning.

 So, just to clarify, there are 300k sources of revenue for CCP whether they are individual people or not? 

Otherwise, I've heard people bring up the 300k number but it is almost always accompanied by, or shortly followed by, comments about people with multiple accounts. Was this really a state secret?

Originally posted by wyrde

Well, now. That's just silly.

 

-w

 

(My  response is equally applied to all the impassioned arguments on this thread.)

 

C'mon....you could cut and paste that response in about 90%+ of the threads on this, or most any forum. :P

Originally posted by noxxle

Received an email saying if I reactivate, I will receive a free plex. So basically, 15 dollars for 2 months.

Anyone else get this email? is it a scam?

I have an inactive account at the moment and have not received an email like that. Last thing I got was the Vol. 34 newsletter on Oct 22nd. If you are tempted, but concerned, could always contact support about it.

Originally posted by pojung

If the game appeals to you, that's fine, and there is nothing but respect to be had for the individual and the statement. I will continue, however, to call it like it is. The agreement that can be had is that you still enjoy the game. I will explain why the game isn't 'quality', and support why via objective means each time. You're not less of a person for enjoying it, it's just unfortunate I couldn't afford to ignore a more detailed picture.

Also, please don't take my words as being abbrassive. I'm a hardliner, but my beef doesn't lie with the individual who enjoys the game. My beef lies with the people who don't allow a loyalist to enjoy the game on its own merits.

It's late so trying to sum up everything fairly briefly; Your "objective" view is that you feel they haven't put as much effort/resources into current development. Further you choose raids as a narrow window to frame the argument about effort in. You say the surrounding area added to support the raid doesnt matter, but that was effort spent. Introducing flying mounts, vehicle combat (in bg, raid, and wg), and phasing are a few other features that required effort as well. So sure, you can be as "objective" as you want about any sliver of the picture that suits you while neglecting the bigger picture. Just a note, this is not an implication that you must like the features in order to acknowledge effort spent.

As far as pvp, again, not really sure the arguments are relevant. The mechanics are there to support what you are saying you prefer and it sounds like players aren't leveraging those mechanics. Thats a community choice. I get that you aren't a fan of BGs and such and I can understand those gripes. I just don't really understand the flying mounts and such gripes. I mean, when I play EvE and I notice that I am up against something that is going to cost me a good amount of ISK, my next move is to warp to a bookmark, gate, or station. That is pretty close to the equivalent. I mean, I could get jammed up, but then in WoW I could get rooted. People avoiding losing exists in every game and I am not really sure there is a solution to that.

As far as being abbrassive, I don't read it that way and, even if i did, it's an internet forum; Not really a big deal in the scope of things. I don't really get your comment about not allowing a loyalist to enjoy the game on its own merits. Aside from that, we're pretty much going back and forth on "is quality" vs. "isn't quality" and then you say it is the most polished and responsive MMO to date. Not really much to discuss when you are standing on all the bases ;)

In the end, I'm not here to sell a WoW sub to you. I don't really care if you play, used to play, plan to play, or whatever. It's nice to get an idea of what people don't like though (beyond the "ZOMG WOW SUX") because it affords me another point of view and I can step back and evaluate some of my opinions a bit more critically. I've also played through all the iterations though I've occasionally canceled to spend more time in EvE or away from MMOs altogether (growing family and all that). I like where the game is now compared to vanilla though I can acknowledge (thanks to my rose colored classes) that Vanilla was a very decent game in its own right. With that, I'll leave it to others to continue the conversation.

Originally posted by pojung

Alone or not, the *instance* itself could hardly be deemed true 'raid content'. Don't bundle it with quests and other events, those get listed and classified in their respective categories. And by referencing the AQ event, I trust you were around during that time. Being around during that time, it's somewhat surprising that you would choose to compare the two. Quality isn't subjective here. That's a cop-out. There are too many, obvious, corners cut. Half the raids are either rehashed zones or quick, 1 boss zergs. Ony was a 1 boss zone, but hardly a zerg. Gruul, Mag were small-scale zones, but also hardly zergs. Only EoE isn't a zerg here, VoA absolutely is.

You paint a perfect PvP server picture. Flying mounts, a dead landscape from 1-79 followed with 80s hanging out in daily quest hubs hardly quantifies as 'any place'. It's predictable, or so scarce it's not worth mentioning. Either you have an abundance of locations that you can farm your PvP kills at, or you have none. A small smattering of quest hub locations makes it all too common to know where to go. This is compartmentalized. It's not spontaneous. Again, assuming you were around during the AQ days, you can't seriously stand here and claim that 'world pvp' is alive and well in present-day WoW.

For a PvE server, WG works. It's a positive concept that implements according to intent. It's a zone where PvP is always at play. While it's compartmentalized, I can see the benefit of introducing the concept where it has otherwise been absent for the past 4 years on these servers. Regardless of time, there is somewhere I can go where I know people will be found who are flagged. While the location is all too predictable, the timing could be very much dynamic. The novelty isn't the lame attempt at world pvp here, it's introducing a 'mandated' PvP zone in an otherwise PvP docile world.

PvP server, come on, I know you've at least played on one. It's a zergfest every 2hrs30, then dead with 1-2 farmers. This isn't world PvP, it's a 'world queued instance'. In to get my checklist done for the day/week, then done with it.

Continent wide buff for increased xp or dmg done? I quit for the final time when ToC came out, remind me what the buff does. What does this do, legitimately, for 80s? You know, the people who are allowed inside the zone? Nothing. While I want to give credit for 'access to' a raid instance... that instance is 10min and done, all PUGs. The perks are dismal.

It is no secret WotLK is meant to appeal to a broader spectrum of players and this extends to raid instances. As such quality is absolutely subjective. You might be a person who prefers a longer raid instance and therefore, ToC may seem subpar for you. However, there are plenty of people who enjoy the setting and execution of ToC and believe it is a quality raid that fits their play style. The reason I mention the quests and supporting tournament grounds is because they were added to the instance and part of the original conversation was that more had been added to BC by the same time in the development cycle. Regarding VoA, it's three bosses (plus trash) that each have their own tactics whereas Gruul's and Mags were single boss fights (plus trash) if I recall correctly. So, by the measure, VoA has more to offer then two BC raids.

Just to comment on the War Effort; yes, I was there (although alliance at the time). I chose to compare due to the fact it was an event that both factions could participate toward that resulted in a raid instance. I wish there would be more multi-faction events like that and is certainly one of things I would fault Blizzard for.

As far as PvP, I paint a perfect picture and you paint the absolute worst picture. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. That said, can you blame Blizzard on this account? You are asking for spontaneous PvP and the mechanics and ruleset are there to support it. If the players don't use it how can that be Blizzard's fault? 

WG on PvE is really just an extension on the Bone Wastes, Halaa, HFP towers, Zangar Marsh Towers, EPL Tower, Silithus, and whatever i may have left out. Blizzard has consistently added PvP objectives that are either predictably timed or always in play and that provide some form of benefit to the winners of the objectives. Its a good concept that gets people out of their PvE comfort zone without enforcing a ruleset that would push them away.

I haven't bothered with WG on a PvP server so I can't speak to it.

As far as the continent wide buff, I was under the impression it was an XP boost and allows you to obtain Stonekeeper's Shards from instance/raid bosses. The shards are currency for crafting recipes, various gems, pvp gear, bind on account gear, mounts, etc. Since these are attainable in any instance in Northrend and for any level that can participate in Northrend, I wouldn't really call it "nothing". VoA certainly is a quick instance don't get me wrong. This is sort of mandatory since the bosses "return to stone" about 10 min before the next match. If you get a PuG going and get all three bosses in 10 minutes then you're doing a good job. If you can get them all within 5 minutes I think you get an achievement so you better start working harder ; ).

Ultimately, it sounds like you expressed your distaste by choosing not to pay/play. I can only say "good for you" on that account as you went with your convictions. The current design philosophies appeal to my play style (which has admittedly changed since vanilla) so the product is still worth the price of admission for me. Given that basic understanding, I'm not sure we'll reach agreement. I can understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with it :)

Originally posted by pojung

1. There *is* a shortage of raids and their quality. There was Ulduar, EoE as new content and new zones. Naxx was rehashed, and ToC is laughable- 1 room with oversized, already-used models. VoA is a 10min zergfest for veterans and PUGs alike. Anything to disclaim from this?

2. Open world PvP in a literal sense is, well, pvp regardless of place or time. What do people *mean* when they say open world PvP? Spontaneity. People who whine about it don't know exactly how to express it. There is nothing 'open' about a scheduled event, once every 2hr30. There is nothing 'open' about knowing *where* to go at the drop of a dime for PvP. It is 'world' content, sure, but there's no soul to it. There's no vibrant factor. People use the term 'instanced' because it does 2 things: it isolates time, and place. BGs are literally 'instanced'- housed on seperate, physical servers, and external to any interactions with the 'world at large'. Newsflash? WG, despite being attached to the 'world at large', 'feels' 'instanced' because it meets all the criteria of what 'instanced' content is, not that of 'open world' content. It's like the heart: it's a red muscle in the body, but is categorized as a white muscle group. It's role and function meet all of the other grouping's criteria.

 

Typical forum chatter, however. People splitting hairs over literal word meanings and failing to understand the root or underbelly of what they're attempting to discuss.

There has already been ample reply to #1. I'll add to it that ToC was not added alone, but instead was added with the tournament grounds that include various quests. There was also a "building" event to help establish the tournament (akin to the AQ war effort for example). So, as stated earlier, quality is subjective and an endless argument that noone can win. Quantity, well, WotLK has one less raid when 3.3 hits. Not a huge variation in my opinion.

As to the second point, PvP servers, by definition, have open world pvp. It can happen anywhere and at any time. PvE servers have a different rule set to accomodate players who don't want spontaneous PvP. So it seems there is no argument here as there is a ruleset that accomodates exactly what you are talking about. Is your complaint that WG provides an external motivation for players to gather together and fight it out? I'm not really sure how that is a bad thing on a PvE or PvP server. I mean, random skirmishes are fun and all, but fighting for a continent wide buff and access to a raid instance are nice perks.

If a parent paid for a kids account, wouldn't the kid's account be in the parent's name? At least the credit card used would so there would be a reasonable expectation that the commission would go to the parents right?

Originally posted by someforumguy

Read my post again please, because you misunderstood me. I never implied that all lies are worth getting worked up over. I only tried to explain that it doesnt make a difference if someone lies in a game, mail or over the phone.

What you find condonable as lie is your own choice. That doesnt mean that your lie to someone else gets accepted too. Because thats their choice. So you can expect a serious reaction from someone else over a lie, even if it happens inside a game.

In the case of lying about gender in a game, it depends on what kind of trust is placed upon that information. If someone made up a complete fake background and made others believe that (guild application on website for example), and people find out. Then you can expect people to feel offended.

sorry I quoted your post as a means of rounding out my participation in this thread (though I can't seem to resist a decent discussion). Regarding your comments about people being offended, I believe Imhotepp and Terranah covered that ground fairly early on so appologies for not readdressing it.

Originally posted by Zorvan01

Exactly.

So, is Adventurine sending out time cards, tax forms, ect., to it's new commision paid employees? At least to the ones here in the U.S.? Because otherwise, they're breaking the law.

I was under the impression this would only be required if the income gained from the commissions reach a qualifying "taxable income" amount. So, for example, if I made $100 at a garage sale, that doesn't really need to get reported since it does not reach a minimum taxable income amount. This isn't a statement of fact though just something I was under the impression about.

Originally posted by someforumguy

It makes no sense to think that lying is ok in a game. That it happens inside a game doesnt make a difference. It is still a lie to a different REAL person. If you think it is wrong to lie about something on the phone, then it is certainly as wrong to lie about the same thing in a game.

Gamechat is just the means of communication. Just like mail, phone or whatever way of communication.

I deal with people who lie everyday. I deal with them at work, when running errands, and...can you imagine it....even when I play a video game. Now, some of those lies matter and some, well some just have no impact whatsoever. Whether someone is a male playing a female character, or female playing male, really falls under the no impact category. People may have motives for their lies or they may just be subconscious, but really, if there is no impact that's pretty irrelevant to me. It's great to be the idealist and say "a lie is a lie no matter what", but in dealing with people, I've learned that some lies just aren't worth getting worked up about. The tough part about being the idealist on this is that you really need to look at your own habits and determine if you are 100% honest all the time. If you are then I certainly salute you for your convictions.

So that's where I am coming from. Not really much else to say besides that and everyone is pretty entrenched in their view at this point so not sure there is much progress to be made. Thanks for the conversation and good luck in the game you're playing :)

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/259809/IMPORTANT-Community-Publishing-Program-Referrals-Disallowed.html 

problem solved.

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

If someone said to me in a game that they wouldn't roll on a drop, and then suddenly they did I certainly wouldn't find that acceptable. If someone said to me they would do a trade and then after I'd got my stuff they suddenly changed their mind, I wouldn't find that acceptable.

That is reasonable though as not getting the item that dropped or someone going back on a trade would directly impact your character's ability to perform in the game. Someone being female or male is ultimately irrelevant as it has no impact on your characters performance.

Originally posted by PizziJQ

I have no interest in limiting people on making toons male or female only when asked a question by another player to anwser with the truth you implied that i had a problem with the entire thing I dont

alright, I'll chalk this up to more insecurities. You have stated you prefer a certain level of honesty. The link I posted describes a game that, by the fact it enforces some level of restriction on gender choice, is more honest. You can take that however you want. Like I said, it was meant as a nice gesture becuase I actually thought it would be of interest to you if not to play then to just have knowledge of. No good deed goes unpunished I suppose.

That said, someforumguy had a reasonable point regarding consensual RP, but at the same time, the audience and nature of the game is also relevant. So, while this tool could be an odd fit in many other games, I think it is a great fit for CCP and EvE (maybe DUST when it comes out). I think, had this tool come up in the Aion or WoW forums I could agree a bit more with some of the statements that have been made since i don't see the tool being such a good fit for those.

Originally posted by PizziJQ

I love how you imply im some kind of Nazi about Gender in games.... it makes me LOL
 

huh? I just posted a link to an article about a game that enforces it because I thought it would be interesting to you based on your comments here. I was trying to do something nice. Not sure how that came off as an implication.

Originally posted by PizziJQ

I'm not saying dont make females toons... Because i make male toons nothing is quite as adorable as male gnome rogue...

But when asked if you are male or female in RL rather avoid the question or anwser truthfully i dont see what is so hard to understand about that or why it is so hard...

It's not that it is hard. It is a choice people make. In a game like EvE that choice may be part of a scam the player is running which is completely acceptable. In another game it may have no relevance. In this particular game where the tool is being introduced, lying is often a game mechanic.

Also, found the link about the game that enforces gender: www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3672/Your-Sex-Prove-It-or-Lose-It.html. Apparently it only enforces gender on the creation of female characters but seems like it might be of interest to you.